Author Topic: The Gun Topic  (Read 101540 times)

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Offline Behumat

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2007, 10:04:10 am »
I always figured the right to firearms was to deter tyranny. For instance, the President decides to ammend the constitution declaring himself leader for life, obviously the army would be in a quandry as to what to do, but the people would have no such problem. For them it would be obvious, resist. An armed populace helps prevent such situations.

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Wait I thought that was what Checks and Balances were for...

Heh, tell that to the patriot act. It was passed as a war powers act, and 98% of it is just fine, but its that nagging 2% that pretty much takes large sections of the bill of rights, and chucks them in the waste bin. And who's to say it'll go away when the war is over? Who's to say when the war is over?



Offline Legodragonxp

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2007, 04:58:56 pm »
I was taught to shoot by my father,(snip)I have taken a gun safety/conceal carry class.


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Offline PatMan33

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2007, 05:30:03 pm »
BLUES BROTHERS FOR THE WIN!!!

Offline DarkAngel

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2007, 04:22:23 pm »
Wait I thought that was what Checks and Balances were for...

Heh, tell that to the patriot act. It was passed as a war powers act, and 98% of it is just fine, but its that nagging 2% that pretty much takes large sections of the bill of rights, and chucks them in the waste bin. And who's to say it'll go away when the war is over? Who's to say when the war is over?

Good point - when is the "war on terrorism" over? Technically its impossible to win a war against an idea, so technically the war will never end...

Remember Hitler was given "emergency powers" to fight terrorism once too... He didnt ever give up his extra powers, in fact, he used them to try and spread his tyranny over the entire world...
If all german citizens had guns, I dont think they would have acted to stop this tyranny, because at the time he was the popular leader. Likewise, if GWB used the "war on terror" to invade sovereign nations and spread tyrrany, I don't think american citizens and their guns would stop him - not because they wouldn't be able to stop him, but because they believe in him as a leader.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 04:28:17 pm by DarkAngel »

Offline Legodragonxp

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2007, 05:04:02 pm »
That darn Hilter, sure... one guy has to screw it up for everybody else. :)

Offline syphonbyte

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2007, 05:15:00 pm »
Wait I thought that was what Checks and Balances were for...

Heh, tell that to the patriot act. It was passed as a war powers act, and 98% of it is just fine, but its that nagging 2% that pretty much takes large sections of the bill of rights, and chucks them in the waste bin. And who's to say it'll go away when the war is over? Who's to say when the war is over?

Good point - when is the "war on terrorism" over? Technically its impossible to win a war against an idea, so technically the war will never end...

Remember Hitler was given "emergency powers" to fight terrorism once too... He didnt ever give up his extra powers, in fact, he used them to try and spread his tyranny over the entire world...
If all german citizens had guns, I dont think they would have acted to stop this tyranny, because at the time he was the popular leader. Likewise, if GWB used the "war on terror" to invade sovereign nations and spread tyrrany, I don't think american citizens and their guns would stop him - not because they wouldn't be able to stop him, but because they believe in him as a leader.

That isn't the "tyranny" that most gun owners talk about defending against, though. If GWB were to, say, declare himself emperor of the US and start ordering the executions of leading Democrats, then there would probably be people chomping at the bit for a revolution. Similarly, if the US were invaded for some reason, gun owners would be more than happy to come out in full force and kick some ass.

Offline Manna

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2007, 05:26:42 pm »
arg, that scares the hell out of me, syphonbyte! If your president were executing innocent people under false claims in other countries you would feel no need to rebel, if he were executing innocent people in YOUR country it would be a personal affront to you.

Also, do you honestly believe...honestly...that there is the slightest chance in a million years that any terrorist organisation, country or coalition would ever attempt to take America by force? Really?
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Offline DarkAngel

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2007, 05:27:55 pm »
That isn't the "tyranny" that most gun owners talk about defending against, though. If GWB were to, say, declare himself emperor of the US and start ordering the executions of leading Democrats, then there would probably be people chomping at the bit for a revolution.
LoL, its ok be led by a tyrant, as long as he's only a closet tyrant at home. j/k  :P ;)
My meaning behind that joke is that tyranny doesn't have to be overt, like the example you give. It can be as simple as the gradual erosion of rights, through legitimate legislation like the patriot act. People will only grab their guns and fight against it if it is sudden. People don't even notice their freedom slipping away if its done slowly and gentle enough - especially if you've got emotionally compelling excuses to gather public support.

Similarly, if the US were invaded for some reason, gun owners would be more than happy to come out in full force and kick some ass.
I'm getting a bit off topic now, but, that's something that ticks me off - everyone agrees that if their country was being invaded, they would stand up and do their bit to fight off the aggressors, but when people do their bit to stand up against US invasions they're not "freedom fighters" or "patriots", they're "insurgents" or "terrorists".

Offline Bobthetriangle

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2007, 07:26:53 pm »
I'm against gun laws, but seriously, if an invader was able to defeat the US military, whats a bunch of rednecks with shotguns going to do?

I believe that there should be no laws restricting gun ownership, not because I'm afraid of foreign invaders but simply because the government is a big fat guy with a shotgun and foam cowboy hat who uses whatever excuse he can find to take away our rights. We really should just start over, put everything back to the way it was in 1780 when there weren't any stupid laws and we actually had rights.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 07:47:19 pm by Bobthetriangle »
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Offline syphonbyte

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2007, 10:11:36 pm »
LoL, its ok be led by a tyrant, as long as he's only a closet tyrant at home. j/k  :P ;)
My meaning behind that joke is that tyranny doesn't have to be overt, like the example you give. It can be as simple as the gradual erosion of rights, through legitimate legislation like the patriot act. People will only grab their guns and fight against it if it is sudden. People don't even notice their freedom slipping away if its done slowly and gentle enough - especially if you've got emotionally compelling excuses to gather public support.
Yes, but eventually it will get to a point where it IS noticed. In a situation like that, I'd rather live somewhere that lets me have a gun. There are also other (more probable) instances, like natural disasters, that tend to throw things into chaos. That much was made obvious when Katrina hit Nawlins, and I'd prefer to be able to defend myself against people trying to steal my cookies and milk.

I'm getting a bit off topic now, but, that's something that ticks me off - everyone agrees that if their country was being invaded, they would stand up and do their bit to fight off the aggressors, but when people do their bit to stand up against US invasions they're not "freedom fighters" or "patriots", they're "insurgents" or "terrorists".
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Offline Cobra

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2007, 01:52:47 am »
Yeah but long before it's noticble you've lost your guns because they gradually snuck them away from you using as D.A. mentioned compelling emotional reasons to make you want to give them up.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2007, 03:12:31 am »
LoL, its ok be led by a tyrant, as long as he's only a closet tyrant at home. j/k  :P ;)
My meaning behind that joke is that tyranny doesn't have to be overt, like the example you give. It can be as simple as the gradual erosion of rights, through legitimate legislation like the patriot act. People will only grab their guns and fight against it if it is sudden. People don't even notice their freedom slipping away if its done slowly and gentle enough - especially if you've got emotionally compelling excuses to gather public support.
Yes, but eventually it will get to a point where it IS noticed. In a situation like that, I'd rather live somewhere that lets me have a gun. There are also other (more probable) instances, like natural disasters, that tend to throw things into chaos. That much was made obvious when Katrina hit Nawlins, and I'd prefer to be able to defend myself against people trying to steal my cookies and milk.

But you don't need a gun to defend your baked goods. If it came to looting and suchlike, a baseball bat would do just as well, if not better (you don't need training, unlimited use, incapacitates without killing  :P)

Plus, the point is that when its that gradual it hardly ever gets noticed, and the people that do tend to be able to notice usually get guns through the underground anyway, obviating the need for every person in the country to have one (have you ever considered that an oppressive regime may well have the support of a majority of citizens?... armed and fanatical citizens.)
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Offline huggkruka

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2007, 06:17:47 am »
Good point. Look at angry muslim protesters. There's always a whole lot of AKs waved in their peace marches. An Iraqi civilian using the usual "home defence" approach towards American troops is called an insurgent. As far as he's concerned, he's defending his country against tyrannic invaders(not entirely reasonless). Course, this doesn't happen too often, most US troops are actively attacked. Keep in mind this is just what would happen in the USA if it was invaded by, say, Canada.

Offline syphonbyte

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2007, 10:54:01 am »
Yeah but long before it's noticble you've lost your guns because they gradually snuck them away from you using as D.A. mentioned compelling emotional reasons to make you want to give them up.

Thanks to groups like the NRA, an armed revolt would happen before the government fully accomplished that. (Not to mention the group that is responsible for the Patriot Act is the same one that allowed the assault rifle ban to expire.)

But you don't need a gun to defend your baked goods. If it came to looting and suchlike, a baseball bat would do just as well, if not better (you don't need training, unlimited use, incapacitates without killing  :P)

Plus, the point is that when its that gradual it hardly ever gets noticed, and the people that do tend to be able to notice usually get guns through the underground anyway, obviating the need for every person in the country to have one (have you ever considered that an oppressive regime may well have the support of a majority of citizens?... armed and fanatical citizens.)
If people are getting guns through the underground then I'm going to need more than a baseball bat when they attack my bakery after a hurricane comes through. Your point that guns could still be obtained illegally is exactly why many people say that gun control won't work.

I don't think a regime can be considered "oppressive" if they have the support of the majority of citizens. If it were so oppressive to them then they wouldn't be fanatically supporting it.

"Gun control is not about guns; it's about control."
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Offline Mr. Consideration

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Re: Guns! (and other things that go boom)
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2007, 11:10:34 am »
I'm pretty sure the Nazi regime had support of the majority of the populace. Does that mean it wasn't oppressive?
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