Author Topic: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore  (Read 12313 times)

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Offline mccarty181

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Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« on: October 19, 2006, 12:08:14 pm »
Recent information as of today of the recent stream found by happydan20 has shown that "The physics and fluid engines breaks all the rules and doesn't take any memory at all". Does anyone here have at all the slightest idea how they did that. I know they have the amazing code writers but how will it function, soley on the processor, virtual memory, or some kind of offsite networking/internet capability. Ideas?


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Offline Smith987

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2006, 01:01:16 pm »
I'm not a computer expert, so I don't have a clue how it can work without memory. Maybe it's proof of Will Wright & co.'s godly powers :)

Is this a stupid question or can it somehow run directly off of the cd?
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Offline Yossitaru

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2006, 01:12:26 pm »
I've been wondering the same thing all day, about the not needing memory bit. I don't even see how it's even possible, since even the simplest calculations require some memory to even store the numbers. I am just a programming student at the moment, and whatever they are doing is probably well over my head.

As for running off the CD, it wouldn't make much a difference as far as making the calculations for the engine results, since the numbers need to be stored somewhere. Since once a CD is burned (non-RWs) nothing can be written to the disc, so the game would still need the computer's resources to run.
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Offline mccarty181

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2006, 01:14:31 pm »
the write speed of cd is slow this is why they use ram it is much faster but in general they said no use of memory im puzzled any one here an expert in that.. I doubt it
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Offline papaboom

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2006, 01:23:42 pm »
This is a real puzzler - saying it uses "no memory" is probably off the mark - closer to say it uses "less memory" than what has came before but "no memory" - that is impossible afaik..

Lets look at it this was - when you ask your computer to sum 1 and 1 - that takes memory - not alot mind you - but those two values require enough memory to be stored and the sum of the two values requires memory to be processed.

I am not at all familiar with graphics procession in applications - but I do know about programming - and this just seems impossible to me. Collision and physics require calculations - calculations require variables and functions - variables require memory - functions require processing..


Offline Smith987

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2006, 01:31:21 pm »
Maybe it doesnt use memory in the long tern sense- i.e. memory is used to calculate the fluid effects, and then deleted, taking up one part of memory only whilst the game is playing. Maybe its just that the engine isnt installed on the computer.

Then again, I might be talking a load of rubbish- I ain't no programmer   :-\
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Offline mccarty181

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2006, 01:38:28 pm »
This is a real puzzler - saying it uses "no memory" is probably off the mark - closer to say it uses "less memory" than what has came before but "no memory" - that is impossible afaik..

Lets look at it this was - when you ask your computer to sum 1 and 1 - that takes memory - not alot mind you - but those two values require enough memory to be stored and the sum of the two values requires memory to be processed.

I am not at all familiar with graphics procession in applications - but I do know about programming - and this just seems impossible to me. Collision and physics require calculations - calculations require variables and functions - variables require memory - functions require processing..



nothing is impossible.. highly unlikely but not immpossible

maybe because of the games procedural nature it may use less memory.
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Offline GrapeFruit

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2006, 02:09:42 pm »
My guess: They caught some magicians, mashed them to a nice red magic soup and added a lot of booze and al little bit of gamer brains to it. Then they dipped their harddrives into that incredible potage. That's how it's done, magic ladies and gentlemen.

Ok, honestly, I don't deem myself competent enough to make a conclusion about that piece of information, but I'd say it's just a missunderstanding.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 02:12:28 pm by GrapeFruit »
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Offline stuck

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2006, 02:16:59 pm »
No. I agree with Papaboom here. When WW says "no" memory, he means relatively little memory. In ordinary games like Prey, for instance, the physics are so intensive that they require their own processor. This is just an example of how much memory and processor power physics uses.

When they say memory, the mean RAM. This is where programs are stored when they are running. You can not run programs directly off CDs, they are stored in the RAM and then processed bit by bit. This is because RAM allows for Random Access Memory (get it?) and any piece of code can be called at any time.

My guess is that they created very advanced algorithms that simulate the physics of what is happening. These algorithms are basically watered-down versions of the actual physics equations, yet provide approximately the same amount of realism. They may also be written in assembly (highly unlikely, but one can dream) and provide uber-fast calculations and little memory take-up.

McCarty, if anything, the procedural engine takes up more RAM, because it shifts focus from straight on mapping to algorithms.

I do know programming and programming concepts, so I'd say I have validity.
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Offline papaboom

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2006, 02:31:02 pm »
This is a real puzzler - saying it uses "no memory" is probably off the mark - closer to say it uses "less memory" than what has came before but "no memory" - that is impossible afaik..

Lets look at it this was - when you ask your computer to sum 1 and 1 - that takes memory - not alot mind you - but those two values require enough memory to be stored and the sum of the two values requires memory to be processed.

I am not at all familiar with graphics procession in applications - but I do know about programming - and this just seems impossible to me. Collision and physics require calculations - calculations require variables and functions - variables require memory - functions require processing..


nothing is impossible.. highly unlikely but not immpossible

maybe because of the games procedural nature it may use less memory.

Okay - in the physical universe that we occupy (and not the cloud-cuckoo land where "everything is possible") it is impossible to calculate variables without memory. It is literally NOT possible to calculate variables without memory - in computers or in anything else. Can you sum 2 and 2 if you had no memory? I didnt think so - dont play semantics with me buddy.. :)

Stuckin has the right idea I think.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 02:43:28 pm by papaboom »

Offline Brutus

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2006, 02:47:06 pm »
let me get this straight, doesn't this mean that you could have hundreds of things on screen all using the physics engine and you would not have the slightest drop in framerate? (unlike in HL2 when you drop a lots and lots of tiny things then it lags a bit)
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Offline papaboom

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2006, 03:10:44 pm »
Okay I am not sure I understand the idea about generating physics algortihmically - I buy it though - it would mean just like everything else physics are handled procedurally? But how is that different than any other physics engine? Does that mean they are using more processor than ramemory?

 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 03:20:03 pm by papaboom »

Offline dlseth

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2006, 03:30:20 pm »
void main( int argv, char* argc[] ) { int x = 0; }

Voila, one line of code, 32 bits (or 64 bits if you're awesome and cool enough to have a 64 bit CPU and OS) of memory usage.

No memory is simply impossible. Also, it is possible to calculate variables with 'remembering' them using: printf( '2*2 = %d', 2*2 );
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Offline Sub

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2006, 03:31:51 pm »
The answer is so simple guys

They removed all physics based actions, thus physics require no memory.  They were clearly too ambitious and had to remove physics, no biggie...


On a serious note, I would assume, like stuckin2004 and papaboom said, that by "no" memory he means little memeroy compared to other games.

Offline stuck

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Re: Zero memory of the physics and fluid engines in spore
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2006, 03:36:58 pm »
Okay I am not sure I understand the idea about generating physics algortihmically - I buy it though - it would mean just like everything else physics are handled procedurally? But how is that different than any other physics engine? Does that mean they are using more processor than ramemory?
 

Here's an example of what I meant: (this is in java, BTW, and is a section of code used to check if a number is prime)

Code: [Select]
boolean prime = true;
for (int counter = 2; counter < numberToCheck; counter++){
    if ((numberToCheck % counter) == 0)
         prime = false;
}
if (prime)
    System.out.print("This number is prime");
else
    System.out.print("This number is not prime.");

This code takes a number (numberToCheck) and cycles through all numbers less than it, checking their divisibilty with the number. If it is divisible with any number, it will return false. This is an example of a primitive algorithm.

Code: [Select]
boolean prime = true;
for (int counter = 3; counter <= Math.sqrt(numberToCheck); counter+=2){
    if ((numberToCheck % counter) == 0)
         prime = false;
}
if (prime == true && (numberToCheck % 2) == 1)
    System.out.print("This number is prime");
else
    System.out.print("This number is not prime.");


This is another example of an algorithm, but it runs much faster. Instead of cycling through all of the numbers below the number to check, it only cycles up to the square root of the number to check. This effectively reduces the computation time (and memory usage) many times over. Also, it is streamlined yet again because it only cycles through odd numbers, and then at the end checks if it is even. This halves computation time. The result is a much more streamelined algorithm that uses less memory.

But never none. I suspect that that they streamlined the physics algorithms and took some shortcuts.