Author Topic: Choose a religion in Spore  (Read 22903 times)

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Offline papaboom

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2006, 02:54:18 pm »
Is your argument - DAXX - that communism is at it's root atheism? That it's principle purpose is the eradication of religion? Quoting MARX's well known "opiate of the masses" is not proof.

Your basic contention reads to me like this:

Communism = Atheism = Communism. You literally said that Stalin's genocidal program was BECAUSE of atheism not due to a thirst for power and a willingness to use any means necessary to attain (as is obvious in every genocidal madman.) I have no beef with you - and no desire to prove my point - put anyone down or try and look smarter than they are. I apologize if I misread you based on some out-of-context posts on another thread - but what I assume you to be saying about Stalinist communism and its relationship to atheism (ie that the goal of communism is at heart an atheistic one) is false. Your arguments have amounted to no evidence proving that particular point - nor have you any proof that Stalin did what he did BECAUSE he was an atheist. He did what he did BECAUSE he was insane.

Its the same as saying - that the Crusades were BECAUSE of Jesus. It simply doesnt follow. Now if you're just trying to be a sophist (as I suspect) then fine - have your way - hope it's fun. But if you are interested at all in learning or enlightening yourself and others then please stop oversimplifying. Again - if I have wronged you in some way - then you will find I am man enough to apologize. But you are wrong on the topic of Stalin's motives. He was just another in a sad line of egomaniacs (like Mao, Hitler, etc..) who used religion (in this case Atheism) to justify his behavior.

The whole - 'questioning is not free-thought' is also a big hairy load - whoever said it. The whold idea of free-thought is in questioning the assumptions - whether God, Marx, or common knowledge. 

I broke my vow not to post here - but I felt bad about the earlier posts and wanted to clear up any possible animosity. From now on - anytime the words "religion", "evolution", "Creationism", or "Intelligent Design" is brought up I will not even read it. Apologies to the OP for any contribution I made to derailing your thread (like this post for instance.)

Offline Therewolf

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2006, 02:58:34 pm »
I don't think your gov/religion should be chosen for you, especialiy not in a game as centered on the freedom for the player as spore.
The whole point of the choice is to allow the player to look at the options and choose in a way that best suits the way they want to play, if the choice is made for the player, then it limits the player's ablity to change their game the way they choose.

Offline Daxx

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2006, 02:59:36 pm »
Huzzah! Free straw men and Ignoratio elenchi for everybody! I'm not going to bother arguing with you since you seem fundamentally incapable of answering any of my actual points - it's a complete waste of everyone's time.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 05:34:28 pm by Daxx »

Offline Asheron2K

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2006, 03:07:19 pm »
But, you would be choosing it based on how you have played... there are more ways to choose something than just clicking a button and being self choosing seems to fit more with the style of spore... think about terraforming, the tools are supposed to act in unexpected ways...

and besides it probably wouldnt even really effect gameplay... it would just be a little line in your creatures description/card

Offline Zellman

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2006, 03:19:09 pm »
As much as I love debates.  Debating whether consistent atheism is going to destroy the world was not the purpose of this thread.  (please calm down folks or start a thread of your own to defend your religion though I think that if you want to have a personal debate with someone, then debate it useing PMs.) 

Back to topic.  good point Asheron, procedural religion-ing.  if you program your creatures to act like they have a God, or gods, then they will act accordingly.  If you program them to act like there is no God or gods, or to be hostile toward a God or gods, (which would follow stalin's approach very well) then they will act in that way.  That way the way in which you play would determine the religiousity of your race.  But then there couldn't really be any bonuses unless they had procedural bunuses as well.  (now ya'll can fight over how an atheist willosaur would act differently than a monotheistic one, ha!) 

(I think "procedural" is my new favorite word, thanks to WW.)

Offline stuck

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2006, 03:27:42 pm »
Oh wow, I just realized how stupid I've been. Will Wright said himself that depending on how you've played your character, it will determine how religious they are! "For example, if I shoot fireworks over a very religious society, they will worship me" (more or less) So the concept of a religion and how devoutly they uphold it is more important than the type of religion!

Offline papaboom

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2006, 03:47:04 pm »
So the concept of a religion and how devoutly they uphold it is more important than the type of religion!

Often true in the real world also..the devout either give everyone else a bad or good name.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2006, 03:57:19 pm »
Someone said Atheism isnt a belief. That someone is wrong. I'm an atheist and I know its as baseless factually as believing in god 9 a general god, not a specific human god) which technically makes me a string agnostic. But Atheism is as much an article of faith as religion.
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Offline Protoavis

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2006, 04:09:31 pm »
I find it assuming that allot of the argument that occured was essentially atheist's aren't spiritual/moral, Buddhism is a form of atheism. To pin down to one thing is like saying every monothesic religion is the same and I'm pretty sure you can all see the difference in Jewish, Christian, and Muslim values.

I'm all for the procedural system, it means you actually have to play accordingly to the religion and goverment system you want rather than just choosing it and doing whatever.
"Oh mummy, the bad man said bad things, please mummy...mummy" said the 20+ yr old man.

Offline Therewolf

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2006, 04:29:14 pm »
But, you would be choosing it based on how you have played... there are more ways to choose something than just clicking a button and being self choosing seems to fit more with the style of spore... think about terraforming, the tools are supposed to act in unexpected ways...

and besides it probably wouldnt even really effect gameplay... it would just be a little line in your creatures description/card

hmm, I guess that makes sense, but I was thinking in the terms of trying to change you rstyle of play after beening given a religion.  The system would need to be able to sense the change and act accordingly.

If that worked, then I guess it would be cool to be playing and get an unexpected bonus, but I would also worry about the negatives that pop up.

Offline papaboom

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2006, 04:50:44 pm »
Someone said Atheism isnt a belief. That someone is wrong. I'm an atheist and I know its as baseless factually as believing in god 9 a general god, not a specific human god) which technically makes me a string agnostic. But Atheism is as much an article of faith as religion.

I said it - and I guess it depends on your definition of belief. I had assumed it to mean - given to be true despite evidence or observation - but belief can be and is used more generally than that. I am not an atheist per se - but I am not entirely sure what people mean when they say god - and have found that most are inadequate to defining god as a concept or otherwise. As soon as an answer is given - it's usually refutable.

So it's not that I do not believe or disbelieve or hold some ethos or other - I am just not sure I unserstand what god is supposed to be - if it's an invisible superman who judges everyone when they die - well thats absurd. Its not that I choose not to believe it - it is obviously absurd and not worth considering. We may as well throw any number of absurdities out there that can neither be proven or disproven (a word I hate) and tell everyone that this absurdity not that one is the TRUTH. See what I mean?

My point is - I dont have faith in god or no-god - the argument for hasnt even crossed a threshold where it should be even worth considering. My other point being that dogma is a means to an end and seldom an end in itself (which was what the pissing contest was all about.)

Offline Daxx

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2006, 05:48:10 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

The argument from personal incredulity, also known as argument from personal belief or argument from personal conviction, refers to an assertion that because one personally finds a premise unlikely or unbelievable, the premise can be assumed not to be true, or alternately that another preferred but unproven premise is true instead.

Commonly in an Argument from Personal Incredulity or Argument from Ignorance, the speaker considers or asserts that something is false, implausible, or not obvious to them personally and attempts to use this gap in knowledge as "evidence" in favor of an alternative view of her or his choice. Examples of these fallacies are often found in statements of opinion which begin: "It is hard to see how...," "I cannot understand how...," or "it is obvious that..." (if "obvious" is being used to introduce a conclusion rather than specific evidence in support of a particular view).

A common version of the argument from personal incredulity is:

"I can't believe this is possible, so it can't be true" (The person is asserting that a proposition must be wrong because he or she is (or claims to be) unable or unwilling to fully consider that it might be true, or is unwilling to believe evidence which does not support her or his preferred view.)

Quite commonly, the argument from personal incredulity is used in combination with some evidence in an attempt to sway opinion towards a preferred conclusion. Here too, it is a logical fallacy to the degree that the personal incredulity is offered as further "evidence." In such an instance, the person making the argument has inserted a personal bias in an attempt to strengthen the argument for acceptance of her or his preferred conclusion.

Offline Zellman

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2006, 06:08:21 pm »
So, for example, just because someone thinks that there is not enough evidence for God doesn't mean that there isn't a God.  Or, even though someone doesn't think that there is enough evidence to support evolution it may still have happened.  Is that what you're saying?

TheNecromonicon

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2006, 06:26:05 pm »
What Daxx is saying is all athiests are bad. I've been going over this topic alot and from what I've read, I acctually seem to be more sensible about this than he is. He keeps claiming that atheism causes people like Stalin. But I am an 18 year old athiest, and I've never hurt anyone. I don't do drugs anymore, I'm a virgin, I graduated high school just fine. I used to beleive in God, and it was back then that I was more troublesome and stupid, because I couldn't understand why God let bad stuff happen. That's when I stopped beleiving. And when I stopped beleiving in God, my life suddenly became so much easier to understand, and my values became more defined, because I started realizing I didn't need to put my faith in God, only in myself.

Anyway, this issue has been going on forever, and WILL go on forever. Because there is no right and wrong, only ideas and perception and realitivity. And there is no good and evil, meerly power and how we choose to use it. Life is how we make it, and I beleive everyone is entitled to beleive whatever they want to beleive, as long as those beleifs don't hurt others. Unfortunately, many religious peoples, and athiests as well, do and are hurting others, and it just makes me sad. I've said it before, I'll say it again: we're all just human, flawed, with room to grow. And I eagerly look forward to the day I, all of us, can just grow up, smarten up, act mature more of the time, and all just get along. I'm ashamed for even posting in this thread in the first place.

Offline Zellman

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Re: Choose a religion in Spore
« Reply #74 on: July 26, 2006, 06:33:47 pm »
um, Necro?  if there is no right or wrong why are you offended at atheists being compared to stalin, Since what he did was not wrong according to you? (since there is no right or wrong remember)  Stalin was a great guy, just in his perception he thought that it would be alright to use his power to kill millions of innocent people. 
Oh? so I guess there is a right and a wrong. 
sigh... consistency hurts.