Author Topic: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.  (Read 8423 times)

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Offline GCool

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Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« on: May 22, 2006, 12:22:41 pm »
OK, straight to the point, this game will rock, we all know, there are editors for pretty much every moving thing, and that is what we want.

I was thinking recently, though, about the game 'the movies'.

I was almost as excited for that as I was for spore, but it really disapointed me~

Yes, lots of the game was customisable, but it was still rather rigid.


Now, looking back on the demo videos we have had recently, I noticed that in the editor, they all showed happyness the same way, they all fought basicly the same way.
I can understand that, I meen, you can only program so much without knowing what the creature looks like.

Thing is, alot of us have gone into some detail on our creature ideas, and can probably imagine very well exactly how they will move and dance, etc.
The game could end up dissapointing those people.


But what if there was an advanced mode, where you could go into far more detail with the creatures?
I don't meen looks wise, but how they work.

So, first off, look at the animation of the creatures, now this is an idea borrowed almost straight from a set of ideas I had for a 'the movies' expansion:


Advanced animator
So, we have created our creature, it looks good, and seems to work fine.

However, we are a bit disapointed with the animations it has given us, or even hasn't given us.

Open up a small menu that adds a timeline down at the bottom, much like the one in macromedia flash animator.
We are now free to click on any of the small squares making up this timeline, they would pretty much be frames.
The creature is darkened slightly, as if the lights around it were off.

By double-clicking a square, we see the 'lights' go back up, and we can now move the parts of the creature. As soon as we move a part, the square changes colour to signify that we have added an animation to this frame.


Now, we can put our creature in any position we want by moving the limbs. It works like the normal editor, except the feet are no longer attached to the ground, and the body parts maintain their shape and position of joints - arms will stay the same length.

The creature is now no longer a lump of clay, but a posable puppet.

Once we are happy, we can de-highlight the frame, saving the position.
Once we have done editing, the computer takes a second to figure out how to go from the first frame to the coloured frame smoothly - tweening the animation to make the creature move.

By creating several different frames, the animator figures out what should go inbetween those frames to make them link, and ads it.
We can click through the timeline to see every different position the creature is in, or hit play to watch the animation.



Now, this would be very usefull for making taunts, dances, reactions, and we could choose from a side list of animations for it to represent.
It could also be possible to actually asign different animations to different moods, or even buttons.
The start and end frames could be configured to change from one movement type to another (walking to flying, for example) or even from one mood to another (normal to hunter)

Key frames could be put in to tell the creature to make a sound, or deal damage from a cirtain weapon, or move objects from one grasper to another, turn on/off selected body parts, or even trigger effects on/around the creature.
By activating/deactivating body limbs with armor parts on, you could have an animation for the creature's body plates to fold from its back to protect its whole body, then effectivly freeze, so they would stay like that throught all animations, at least untill they move the armour off again.

A colour timeline could be added to make the creature change its markings to match it's mood - the colours would then stick untill the next change.

Using this, you could do almost anything with the creatures.




Primitive alliance editors

I've mentioned this before, but I really want it.

So, say you have multiple creatures, each with their own name.
By using an alliance menu, you could choose the creatures that you previously made to set a relationship between the creatures.
each creature would be shown with a choice box next to them, with items such as:
ignore (default) ~ protect ~ follow ~ lead ~ obey ~ command ~ ally ~ heard ~ pack ~ attempt to kill ~ scared of ~ taunt ~ chase off.

Each of theese are slightly different reactions between creatures.
Cirtain choices such as 'lead' would come up with erros if 2 species tryed to lead each other so that the game dosn't go mad.

Each of theese would allow you to make richer environments for people visiting your planet to discover.

follow/lead are different to obey/command, in the sence that the first basicly allows one type of creature to follow the other everywhere, whilst the latter means that, for example, the commander could still fight, but if it was to go to attack something, the obeyers would help him attack it.

The selection would have a little ratio box next to it, like so: [1:1]
The first number is labeld as the creature you are making, the latter is the creature the disposition is aimed at.
This basicly meens that if you creature was a commander, and it needed 3 creatures to command, you would right it like this: [1:3]
This would only appear on critain choices, and the max number is 9.

There would also, finally, be an importance number next to it, from 1 to 100, with one as the lowest, 100 as the highest.
So if your creature was afraid of one creature, but more afraid of another, you would set both relationships the same, but set the latter one with slightly higher importance.
This meens that if both were around him, he would be more concerned to get away from the latter.

If somethings importance was 1, then the creature would only do it if there is nothing else happening, and if it is 100, then the creature would try and do it no matter what.

It is understandable that this mode may only be available for use in genetic modifing using the UFO.


This is based off one of the basics of AI programming, relationships, and would also be very usefull.

Now, theres alot of talk about sound editing, and I had a good idea for it:


Voice box editor

OK, so we know that the creatures voice will depend on the type of mouth you give it, but I figure that that isn't all it should rely on.

The size of the mouth is important, too, for pitch and resenance.

But also, the voicebox could be used to make different sounds, using the mouth as an aid.

So lets say we gave the creature a mouth that makes it sound a howl.

Going into a voicebox editor, we could listen to this sound and add effects.

See, there would be a small menu of different, standered effects from music editors -

Pitch bend, modulation, echo, distort, reverse, reverb, etc.

You could apply theese effects, changing different values, and customise the sound.

Sure, it wouldn't be a 100% custom sound, but you wouldn't find many creatures with the exact same sound as yours in the galaxy, and it would be alot closer to how you imagined.


I think many people would be gratefull of this, and I imagine it wouldn't be hard to impliment.






note; I will add more to this later, you can suggest stuff and I may expand on it in this post, but I will feel free to change them to make them easier to implement or use if I see fit.



Offline JakeCourtney

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2006, 12:47:29 pm »
What is to prevent people from breaking the game by doing faulty animations.

Offline Connor(sporefreak)

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2006, 12:49:15 pm »
Good ideas! But the GAME ISNT FINISHED YET and i dont think that we need to worry about every creature having the same default animations
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Offline Notorious B.O.B

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2006, 12:51:33 pm »
This sounds like it would be as complex as the ZBrush 3d sculptor program.  Remember, KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!).  Anythin too complex and you'll start scaring people off.

Granted, the voicebox editor and animation editor sound awesome.  Like, if you want an aggressive species to show happiness by hitting and acting mad, or depression by biting itself, you could do that instead of the default happiness depression animations.
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Offline GCool

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2006, 12:56:53 pm »
What is to prevent people from breaking the game by doing faulty animations.

The game itself is just as likly of faulty animations, and the creatures in the animation studio would be bound by bones, so wont go spazzing off.
If they did try to break the game using it, they probably could, but they could do it alot easier using the creature editor itself.


Quote
Good ideas! But the GAME ISNT FINISHED YET and i dont think that we need to worry about every creature having the same default animations

I know it isn't finnaeshed yet, but one way or another, the creatures can only be animated procedually with what the coders thought would be likly to be used.
You have to admit, it would be nicer to feel you have a unique creature, and if you partially animated it yourself, you would feel more attached.

Besides, you wouldn't *have* to animate it yourself, only if you want to.



Quote
This sounds like it would be as complex as the ZBrush 3d sculptor program

I was attempting to keep it simple.

See, the creature would still be sculpted using the normal editor, and would still be animated using proceduall animation.
The difference being that, say you didn't like the one animation, you could over-ride it with your own.

The way I described it made it sound complicated, but it really isn't:

All you are doing is creating a bunch of still pictures of your creature, and the animator would animated everything between those images.

If you *really* wanted to, you could do it frame by frame, all by yourself, but only experianced animators would want to do that.


Quote
Like, if you want an aggressive species to show happiness by hitting and acting mad

Thats one thing I was going for.

of cource, the more options added, the better it is.

Say they added everything I said in the animation, then you could do this:

Normal stance>
looks at right arm, blade flicks from wrist>
Looks at left arm, blade flicks from wrist>
Arms pull back, creature roars loudly into the air>
Hunt mode activated with longer-reach blades.

Offline Bastardman

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2006, 12:58:15 pm »
What is to prevent people from breaking the game by doing faulty animations.
I agree with this.

Also, do you really think the developers haven't carefully deliberated and conferred over the customisation aspects of the game ever since the idea for Spore first came into being?

Even had they not done so, and even if they see this thread, and even if they could do such a thing, they're not going to just because a handful of fans think it would be a good idea. We have no idea how this game is really put together; only the developers do. Yet there are so many people saying "I don't see why they couldn't do this" or "I think this would be pretty easy for them to add in." If these "advanced" editors don't make it into the game (and I doubt they will), it's because the developers have decided that such things would cause problems, either to implement, to troubleshoot, or both.

I wish people would stop acting like they know what the ins and outs of the development process are.

Offline GCool

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2006, 01:10:00 pm »
What is to prevent people from breaking the game by doing faulty animations.
I agree with this.

Also, do you really think the developers haven't carefully deliberated and conferred over the customisation aspects of the game ever since the idea for Spore first came into being?

Even had they not done so, and even if they see this thread, and even if they could do such a thing, they're not going to just because a handful of fans think it would be a good idea. We have no idea how this game is really put together; only the developers do. Yet there are so many people saying "I don't see why they couldn't do this" or "I think this would be pretty easy for them to add in." If these "advanced" editors don't make it into the game (and I doubt they will), it's because the developers have decided that such things would cause problems, either to implement, to troubleshoot, or both.

I wish people would stop acting like they know what the ins and outs of the development process are.


To be fair, I do know something about creating games ((the alliance editor idea is actually taken pretty much straight from AI programming which I experemented with a while back)), and i'm not going to go and put out ideas that would be impossible to make ((you'l notice all the three up have counterparts in programs such as nero music editor and truespace)).

Any ideas I put are carefully ballenced between simple to use and relitivly easy to add.

I understand that the developers may have thought of things like this before, however I also realise that they may not have, and if they have, they may not have thought about it being done in this way.

Allthough there may be problems of intergrating some things into the game, there would be just as many problems with anything else they put in.

If what was said in the GDC video is correct, I understand how the basis of the game works, even from when I first heard about it my mind had figured out 2 possible ways they had made the game.


Besides, I don't see how the sound editor would cause many problems. The other two, maby, yes, but at least the sound editor could work.

Offline stuck

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2006, 01:58:02 pm »
I like the voice box idea. It's still simple, an it'll keep the ever-important file size down. Though in a way, you are kind of doing this already with the mouth morph channels.
[not serious]They can always make an expansion. Spore: Advanced Features [/not serious]

Offline GCool

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2006, 02:03:13 pm »
I like the voice box idea. It's still simple, an it'll keep the ever-important file size down. Though in a way, you are kind of doing this already with the mouth morph channels.
[not serious]They can always make an expansion. Spore: Advanced Features [/not serious]

Yeah, but then, all theese could be done whilst still keeping the file size down. The animation may make it a bit larger, but it realy depends on the amount of frames you actually set up.

the mouth morph channels don't actually seem to have an effect on the videos, although they are definatly planned to have them, as I mentioned above. However, all that can change is the pitch and resenounce, and that dosn't give much change to the voice anyway.

Offline Hydromancerx

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2006, 05:02:21 pm »
I just want a parts editor so i can make my own unique creature parts. One that look diffrent from any streaching or resizing that one can do with the current ones in the game.

Offline catnip18

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2006, 05:38:42 pm »
ONE:be happy with what there is i know you arnt demanding it

TWO: people would wrong things with the motion editior like the walking penisus thing but worse and it would get stupid

Three: with the voice box people could make somehitng that would sound like words and when they get that everyone will be having their creature saying hi  :-\


Offline Lualmoba

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2006, 05:41:31 pm »
Three: with the voice box people could make somehitng that would sound like words and when they get that everyone will be having their creature saying hi  :-\

Or even cuss words.

Offline catnip18

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2006, 05:43:17 pm »
was going to put that but you would hear more of thoes on the streets and tv then a hord of creature whos happyness word is like fu** and they are all on drugs

Offline Lualmoba

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2006, 05:47:20 pm »
was going to put that but you would hear more of thoes on the streets and tv then a hord of creature whos happyness word is like fu** and they are all on drugs

But we wouldn't be able to get the game if people were able to put cuss words in it. And it would be really hard for them to check every single creature to see what they say.

Offline stuck

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Re: Advanced editors idea ~ hear me out on this.
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2006, 06:02:45 pm »
If you read his voice box suggestion, all it does is add reverbs or echos and such. A custom voice editor at that magnitude could bring the filesize up significantly. Think of all the sounds your creature has to make. Speaking, pleeing for help, calling, attacking, threatening, easily over a minute in sounds which translates to over a few kilobites. A simple reverb or metallic effect would not increase the size at all though.