Author Topic: US Federal Gov't Releases Footage of Flight 77 Hitting Pentagon  (Read 4031 times)

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werechicken

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Re: US Federal Gov't Releases Footage of Flight 77 Hitting Pentagon
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2006, 06:36:09 pm »
or because all current military aircraft + missiles run on combustable fuel and a laser is essentially a giant heat beam

Offline Lambsquirter

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Re: US Federal Gov't Releases Footage of Flight 77 Hitting Pentagon
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2006, 07:35:17 am »
goes to prove they need to install better cameras in the parking lots..fat lot of good this one did
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Offline Eagleon

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Re: US Federal Gov't Releases Footage of Flight 77 Hitting Pentagon
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2006, 10:44:52 am »
When a plane crashes in to a solid object (like a concrete wall) it shreds and compacts in to a very small pile. All an airliner is is a very large soda can, and hitting a solid object doesn't leave much to clean up. Most of the aircraft probably ended up inside of a building.

Since I am at work I cannot find the footage, but there was a test several years ago by the DOE (Department of Energy) where they took and old F-4 Phantom fighter, put it on a rocket sled, and fired it in to a concrete wall built to the same specifications as a nuclear reactor wall, there wasn't much left of the aircraft (you can see the wing tips shear off since the plane was slightly wide than the wall section). In fact, if you can find any pictures of any aircraft that flew straight in to the ground at high speed, you'll find that there isn't much to be seen.

Try to find pictures of the wreckage of a SU-27 fighter that crashed at the Paris airshow after it ingested a bird. There are a couple videos of F-18 and F15 fighters hitting the round nose first as well.

I think what people expect to see is a large tail fin, some wing parts, even some fuselage debris outside the building (maybe like the Air France crash and fire in Canada last year). You'll find very little, the plane hit too hard and too fast. (again, watch the F-4 video) .

The video provided by the parking cams is almost worthless. The frame rate is way too slow. At 400mph an airliner would be moving at 600 feet per second (two football fields). It could have been going much faster.
There's a huge difference between a F-4 Phantom and a Boeing 767 transport, in terms of the amount of material involved.

From Boeing's website:
Quote
First flight:     May 27, 1958 (prototype XF-4H-1)
Wingspan:    38 feet 5 inches
Length:    58 feet 3 inches
Height:    16 feet 6 inches

Ceiling:    56,100 feet
Range:    1,750 miles
Weight:    55,597 pounds
Power plant:    Two 17,900-pound-thrust General Electric J79-GE-17 jet engines
Speed:    1,485 mph (max.)
Accommodation:    Two crew
Armament:    15,983 pounds of weapons, including 20 mm nose-mounted M-61 "Vulcan" cannon
Versus:
Quote
First flight:     Sept. 26, 1981
Model number:    767-200
Classification:    Commercial transport
Span:    156 feet 1 inches
Length:    159 feet 2 inches
Gross weight:    300,000 pounds

Cruising speed:    550 mph
Range:    3,840 to 7,800 miles
Ceiling:    43,199 feet
Power:    Two 48,000- or 50,000-pound-thrust P&W JT9D-R4D or 57,900-pound-thrust GE CF6-80A2 engines
Accommodation:    216 to 290 passengers
Keeping in mind, a lot of the photos circulating out there were taken by the ASCE during their Building Performance Report. It states within that most of the debris had been cleared away by the time they were able to inspect the site (9/14).
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf
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Offline 762

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Re: US Federal Gov't Releases Footage of Flight 77 Hitting Pentagon
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2006, 01:16:10 pm »
Eagleon, it's not just the amount of material that's in the plane. It's the density. If you launch a 20 pound brick at a wall at 100 miles an hour, and a 25 pound ball of aluminum foil at 100 miles an hour, the foil is probably going to be more deformed and squished at the end because the material isn't as stable.

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Re: US Federal Gov't Releases Footage of Flight 77 Hitting Pentagon
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2006, 04:58:50 pm »
You are correct about the differences between an airliner and a fighter plane. An airliner is a very large and proportionally light aircraft when compared to a fighter plane which are very dense since they do not need to carry a change of clothes and extra passengers. Fighter planes need to be very strong to withstand forces nearly 10 times the force of gravity on a regular and repeating basis. Airliners need to tolerate only 1/4 that level of constant strain. (in fact, given the speeds the airliners were reported to be flying at low level, I'm suprised they didn't start coming apart in flight (Boeing still makes a good strong bird I guess)

My opinion is that anything dense enough to be identifiable (engines, wiing root, bulkheads, lawyers, etc...) would have ended up inside the building. The rest would have been shreaded and left both inside and outside of the building. Looking at the link you provided, if I'm reading it correctly, the floor slabs were between 18 and 24 inches of re-enforced concrete. Hit on the edge it would have chopped up the plane (look what a 6inch wide steel slab does to a B-52 when dropped from 40' out at ARAMAC (I'll try to find a link) and that is a stronger aircraft than any airliner)

Also from our link: One witness stays that fine pieces of wing debris were floating down around him. (page 13)


I need to read more of this report (great link BTW) but my son wants some quality time. :)

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