Author Topic: "Bitting hand theory"  (Read 10629 times)

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Offline Sporinger Z

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"Bitting hand theory"
« on: May 11, 2006, 01:49:54 pm »
Just a theory:

As you can see looking at the Willosaur, you can see it attacking with the tail weapon and using it as a hand (e.g. when they take the spears)...

a) Really a weapon?
As you see in E3 demo you can see a mouth (mouths menu, second from top and right) very similar to the weapon, then it could be a mouth instead a weapon (but, really I don't think so).

b) If the weapon is... a weapon (most probably), you can use your weapons as hands (at least, some of them) (e.g. Willosaurus)

c) But, if you have a non-armed critter (I mean, e.g. a prototypical four legged critter), and you reach the tribal stage, would u use the mouth to handle objetcs, etc.? couldn't you use objetcs?



Offline Feigro

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2006, 01:53:03 pm »
A.)It was a Grasper

B.)No, you can't use weapons as hands, you can use hands as weapons. It's a bit different.

C.)Don't know, but that Grasper you think was a mouth, wasn't a mouth. Personally, I doubt it.
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Offline Jaleho

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2006, 01:55:25 pm »
We've seen stats for "social" and "tribal" in the creature editor... it might be that a creature without any manipulators can't get a high enough "tribal" score to allow them to move into the tribal stage... you can hold a spear with your mouth, but how would you build it?

Offline Gwahir

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2006, 01:55:37 pm »
that grasper was specifically mentioned as both a manipulator and a weapon in the GDC '05 video.
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Offline Sporinger Z

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2006, 02:10:54 pm »
I didn't say it: I'm deaf, so I get just the images of the videos.

B.)No, you can't use weapons as hands, you can use hands as weapons. It's a bit different.

About it, in the editor I noticed mouths have "Basic Bite Damage", but I haven't seen something like that related to hands. Well, when you added hands the one thing improved is "Social", but nothing more.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 02:15:53 pm by Sporinger Z »

Offline GCool

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2006, 02:14:04 pm »
I'm sure there will be a mouth that works like a grasper.
Also, for the 'tribal' thing, the graspers seem to directly effect the 'social' status of a critter, so theoreticly, you need -so- many social points to become tribal?

Offline Calqhoon

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2006, 02:15:43 pm »
Yeah, that's how they managed to evolve to the city/space stage. I doubt you can do that without some kind of manipulator, e.g. a hand.

I'm sure there will be a mouth that works like a grasper.
Also, for the 'tribal' thing, the graspers seem to directly effect the 'social' status of a critter, so theoreticly, you need -so- many social points to become tribal?

Yeah someone else mentioned this in another thread. I said it might be due to them being able to form crude hand gestures, meaning they can communicate more easily.

Offline Feigro

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2006, 02:20:21 pm »
Will Talked about graspers in the other demo, saying something to the effect that graspers can also be used as a primitive weapon. After all, it's not hard to punch something. When for example, the creature in the IGN video, in his original state probably cound't pick a spear, or even create one, with just pincers.

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Offline GCool

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2006, 02:26:46 pm »
Will Talked about graspers in the other demo, saying something to the effect that graspers can also be used as a primitive weapon. After all, it's not hard to punch something. When for example, the creature in the IGN video, in his original state probably cound't pick a spear, or even create one, with just pincers.



Actually, he said that most parts have a secondary function, such as a grasper being used as a weapon, or a foot being used as a grasper or weapon, or a weapon being used as a mating device.




Ok, maby I made the last one up, But i'm sure even the best aliens get a bit kinky now and then.

Offline Skraeling

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2006, 02:51:06 pm »
actually title should be biting hand hypothesis (testable prediction).

No, really.  I am a card carrying scientist.

Offline GCool

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2006, 03:20:05 pm »
actually title should be biting hand hypothesis (testable prediction).

But it isnt testable. At least, not untill the game comes out.

Offline Skraeling

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2006, 04:40:43 pm »
then it isnt either a hypothesis or a theory, just conjecture.

No, really.  I am a card carrying scientist.

Offline Sporinger Z

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2006, 06:54:29 pm »
 ??? ??? ???

WHATEVER  :D :D ;)

Offline Skraeling

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2006, 07:03:57 pm »
not hating on ya sporinger  ;D


course you may not have ment a scientific hypothesis ^_^
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 07:07:03 pm by Skraeling »

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Offline Samog

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2006, 07:14:45 pm »
then it isnt either a hypothesis or a theory, just conjecture.
It's not any of those. It's a "quote from Will Wright."
"Fine. Don't believe me. I'm not lying. all your laziness which you mistake for something funney is driving me insane, quit fooling around!  dude this is just wrong, very wrong. reality does not consist of constrained language. go lock this thread malt. I love the payment."4MOD

Offline Sporinger Z

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2006, 07:16:12 pm »
actually title should be biting hand hypothesis (testable prediction).

But it isnt testable. At least, not untill the game comes out.

then it isnt either a hypothesis or a theory, just conjecture.

course you may not have ment a scientific hypothesis ^_^

I'm getting a headache...  :-[ ;) :D

Offline Skraeling

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2006, 07:18:06 pm »
its all good sporing, repeat after me... "its gonna come out eventually"

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Offline Sporinger Z

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2006, 07:22:03 pm »
Oh, man, I think I'm going to bed.  :D

I'm still trying to forget a topic about the nature of knowledge and now I have to fight between thesis, synthesis, theories, conjetures, talks, "runruns", supositions, wishes, and "the mother who paired all of them"  ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D

Offline Full_Metal

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2006, 10:34:11 pm »
I think i'd prefer to just make the creature with no arms and watch what happens when they hit tribal stage...

Offline Sporinger Z

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2006, 06:07:46 am »
I think i'd prefer to just make the creature with no arms and watch what happens when they hit tribal stage...

Well, I've got another theory 8) about it. By the moment, in the editor exist the Social bar (as the Speed, Hervibore, etc. bars) and the way to full it is to add hands to your creatures.
But, Social could work just to improve comunication between other creatures of your same specie, a necesary hability to reach the Tribal stage,... or both... or none.

Offline Didero

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2006, 10:19:48 am »
In the IGN video, in the baby-part, Will teams up with another creature by some sort of shout. So to form a tribe, you wouldn't even need manipulators, just some way to make a 'grouping' sound

Offline mrodgers

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2006, 10:22:55 am »
But you might need them for holding spears or fire.
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Offline Didero

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2006, 10:26:36 am »
You wouldn't need to hold spears if the species is herbivorous and friendly by nature, they wouldn't have any use for weapons. And fire isn't needed if it's a warm planet, or if they are cold-blooded.

Offline mrodgers

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2006, 10:31:48 am »
You wouldn't need to hold spears if the species is herbivorous and friendly by nature, they wouldn't have any use for weapons. And fire isn't needed if it's a warm planet, or if they are cold-blooded.

Even peaceful creatures need to protect themselves and a whole planet can't be warm. :-P
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Offline Didero

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2006, 10:32:57 am »
What about that Lava-planet in the IGN video? :p

Offline mrodgers

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2006, 10:38:50 am »
What about that Lava-planet in the IGN video? :p

Well then they need hands to use their hot suits and tanning lotion.
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Offline Didero

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2006, 10:48:24 am »
No, because they'd be naturally adapted to that environment :)

Offline shivering_king

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2006, 11:43:09 am »
A lot of the hands you can put on your creature seem to be defensive in nature. If you watch the G4 video, the guy making the creature puts those big spike balls on as hands, which makes me wonder if your creature has builtin weapons for hands, would it ever need to carry a spear or other weapon? It does seem like it would be weird to have a creature at the civ stage that walks on all fours and looks like an animal though. I'd hope you need at least one appendage that can grasp things before you can go civilized.

Offline Sporinger Z

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2006, 06:55:32 pm »
In the IGN video, in the baby-part, Will teams up with another creature by some sort of shout. So to form a tribe, you wouldn't even need manipulators, just some way to make a 'grouping' sound

Well, I'm not so sure. They were not a "tribe", but a "pack", "pride", or whatever it's called. So they are social like bees or coyotes, but no like humans.

They would need the hability to handle tools, in some way.

Offline mrodgers

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2006, 07:33:49 pm »
I wonder if you can use a mouth as your gripper if worst came to worst.
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Offline Sporinger Z

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2006, 09:29:15 pm »
I wonder if you can use a mouth as your gripper if worst came to worst.

If you put it at the end of the creature's arm...

By the way, if you conect a hand to an arm... would it work as both hand and foot? I think it'd do, but...

I supose we have to wait until April '07 (aprox.)  :'( :'( :'(

Offline Brutus

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2006, 12:50:02 am »
ITS NOT A BITTING HAND!! its a grasper with a bit of a weapon ability
Never mind your own business.

Offline mrodgers

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2006, 08:15:57 am »
I wonder if you can use a mouth as your gripper if worst came to worst.

If you put it at the end of the creature's arm...

By the way, if you conect a hand to an arm... would it work as both hand and foot? I think it'd do, but...

I supose we have to wait until April '07 (aprox.) :'( :'( :'(

I bet the creature would use the mouth as a hand regardless of where it was if needed.  Afterall, you can pick stuff up with your mouth even though its on your face right?
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Offline Sporinger Z

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2006, 08:49:55 am »
ITS NOT A BITTING HAND!! its a grasper with a bit of a weapon ability

Keep cold man.  8) Somebody said it before you, and all get it, you don't have to repeat it constantly  ;)

I bet the creature would use the mouth as a hand regardless of where it was if needed. Afterall, you can pick stuff up with your mouth even though its on your face right?

Well, I'm not sure. But even so, what about social stats bar? I mean, It should have any use, no? I supose you could use your mouth to pick up dead preys (like Willosaur with the one-foot meatball) but you couldn't use tools with your mouth, I supose.

Offline mrodgers

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2006, 08:56:05 am »
I think the social status helps define how well you stick together in the creature stage and how large your tribe/city can get before dealing with social unrest or other similar aspects.
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Offline Sporinger Z

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2006, 09:03:31 am »
Well, its a posibility.

ANother posibility I though is: e.g. one social point-you can make packs (as wolves), three social points-you can make tribes, five-cities;... well, something similar to this.

Offline mrodgers

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Re: "Bitting hand theory"
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2006, 09:29:25 am »
I don't think you need to increase the social points to make a tribe/city.  I am pretty sure that will just depend on brain size.  Otherwise you are creating an artificial limit.  Afterall a person might want creatures that hate large groups.
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