Author Topic: Religion, items, and government...  (Read 7376 times)

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Religion, items, and government...
« on: May 03, 2006, 07:00:34 am »
I know it has been asked before, but do you think you can edit them? The religon might not change things that much, but chosing the government would. Plus, what if you could edit what items are used for, what the buildings are used for, and what the vechiles are used for? It would change the game completly. Wouldn't it be fun to chose the government rather than letting the computer do it procedrully?



Offline slugfly

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2006, 08:34:45 am »
7 eats 9 = 16, you have 983 posts...

Add all digits and you get 36...  or 9.  Add to this the number of questions in the topic title (3) and you get 12. Plus add the number of questions in the post itself (4) and you get 16.

The square root of 16 is 4.  That's the number of days that we have to wait to find this stuff out ;)

Offline jarnomiedema

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2006, 08:49:56 am »
I hope they'll give us the ability to choose certain aspects of religion and government..

I've actually been thinking about the religious 'choices' if there are any in the game.. The choices could perhaps be something as follows:
- No God(s) / One God / Multiple Gods (If latter, select how many)
- Offering (yes/no) (If yes, then select: fruit, children, old people, members of different tribes)
- Idol Worship (yes/no) (If yes, you can build religious buildings, if no.. Something else?)
- Missionaries (active/passive/aggressive) (Active would mean sending missionaires to other cities, passive would mean they stay in your city and preach, aggressive could perhaps be like the crusades? Armed missionaries trying to convert people..)
- State Religion (yes/no) (If yes, your religion would be the predominant one and other religions would have a hard time gaining ground.. Could cause some unhappiness, but might give certain financial benefits..)
- Theocracy (yes/no) (If yes, no other religions would be allowed in your cities, could cause some unhappiness, but might also give bonusses to soldiers..)
- Freedom of Religion (yes/no) (This would come later in the game and could perhaps cause happiness in your cities.)

For the government choices, I think it should be roughly similar to what was available in Alpha Centauri..
Something like this:

Politics represents the method your society uses to make political decisions.
- Frontier (basic)
- Police State
- Democratic
- Fundamentalist

Economics represents how your society manages its resources.
- Simple (basic)
- Free Market
- Planned
- Green


Values represents which value system your society is based upon.
- Survival (basic)
- Power (strong military)
- Knowledge (fast scientific development)
- Wealth (making lots of money)

Future society represents advanced social engineering models, which can be used very late in the game after extensive research and much experience with social engineering.
- None (basic)
- Cybernetic (more and more implimentation of cybernetic parts)
- Eudaimonic (strifing for great potential and happiness)
- Thought control (completely control your population)

So, as far as I'm concerned, there should be plenty of choices available to us to make sure that we can customize our governments and societies as much as possible..
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 10:27:55 am by jarnomiedema »

Offline slugfly

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2006, 08:52:57 am »
Those are great ideas jar jar.  It would be very cool if we could design society as well!  I'd love to make a dystopian world of mind-controlled zombies, enslaved by commerce and the perpetual quest for more stimulation...  I'd probably name it Seoul, Tokyo, LA or New York.

Offline Penguin

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2006, 12:05:42 pm »
I don't think there's been any indication that there's going to be religions in the game.

Also, keep in mind that although Will compared the Civ Stage gameplay to the game Civilization, he only meant that it would have a similar style. He also mentioned that each stage is not going to be a large, in-depth game, but rather simplified versions of those games. The Creature Stage is a simplified version of Diablo, Tribal is a simplified version of Populous, City is simplified SimCity, etc.

So if I were you I wouldn't be expecting all these detailed aspects of the game. E3 is only a few weeks away, better to just wait and see.

Offline raikitsune

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2006, 12:23:58 pm »
if i remember correctly religion was besicly the culture score.

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2006, 01:09:28 pm »
^ yea i agree. this would add excess complexity to an already complex game.

I guess culture will equal religion


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Offline jarnomiedema

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2006, 02:21:30 pm »
I never said that I expect these things to be included with the game, just that I hope it will be..

Personally I'm not much of a fan of 'dumbing' a game down just to make it easier to play for people who don't care about detailed information and micromanagement, but if that's the way Spore goes, it's fine by me.. I always feel the best way to go in such a situation is to let the AI handle the management for people who don't care about details (for instance: if you play aggressively the AI would assign the police state choice to your city/civ) and on the other hand let the player handle the management if they like to tinker with the controls behind the scenes..

One of the main reasons why I assumed religion (of some kind) would be included in the game is because of this concept art posted some time ago:


Like I said, I hope the game isn't going to be 'dumbed' down just to keep things simple, but that is indeed what I fear.. I guess we'll all have to wait for E3 indeed! Can't wait to see what's going to be divulged!  ;D

Offline Penguin

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2006, 02:28:49 pm »
Personally I'm not much of a fan of 'dumbing' a game down just to make it easier to play for people who don't care about detailed information and micromanagement, but if that's the way Spore goes, it's fine by me..

In case you haven't noticed, this game is already huge and very complex from a programming point of view. They've already spent 6 years on it, and it's not done yet. For them to make the kind of in-depth game you want it would take closer to 10 years. Personally, I'd rather just have it the way it is and let the extra detailed features be added in Spore 2.

Offline jarnomiedema

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2006, 03:08:54 pm »
What? You're telling me this game is huge and very complicated? I didn't know that! What have I been doing here since March 2005?

(Ok, sorry about the sarcasm, but I just couldn't resist..  ;D)

Don't get me wrong, I'm hugely appreciative of the game and realize that it's been a very, very complex game to create.. Also, as I've said, I merely hope these things will be included.. If they're not, that's fine as well.. (I'll think it's too bad, but will still buy the game nonetheless when it comes out..) The things I absolutely love about Spore far outweigh any potential points of criticism I may have..

(I don't think it would take four more years to add a few choices in terms of religious/governmental options, but I wouldn't want the devs to add these features if it would mean less time for them to develop more important parts of the game..  ;) )

Besides, if I want to play games that are this detailed, I'll play Civ IV or Alpha Centauri.. Although I doubt I'll ever look at those games again once I get Spore..  :D
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 03:11:30 pm by jarnomiedema »

Offline Yokto

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2006, 03:52:26 pm »
Future society represents advanced social engineering models, which can be used very late in the game after extensive research and much experience with social engineering.
- None (basic)
- Cybernetic (more and more implimentation of cybernetic parts)
- Eudaimonic (strifing for great potential and happiness)
- Thought control (completely control your population)
I think you describe Eudaimonic and Cybernetic a little wrong.

The Cybernetic society is base on the idea that AIs will do all the heavy governing and leting the citizens get as mush freedom and time as possible in that process. The citizens them self many or many not be Cybernetic augmented. It up to them.

Eudaimonic Strives for a idea society base that on the idea of the right man on the right job. What one should do is base on what one is skilled in. Is very mush a Utopian idea which also have the same shadows.

In some ways both Eudaimonic and Cybernetic societies are very alike. Both try to achieve as a efficient society at hole. I see problem with both. In Eudaimonic you are at risk of being a part of a machine wiles in Cybernetic you are at risk of being outside the machine.

Now back to the topic  ;)

I think that it would be best if once actions control's how once society evolves. I do not wish to have a simple menu where i can select what type of society i will have. This works for SMAC but that a diffrent type of game which concentrates on empire building at a large scale but spore is more on how to build a society and how it interracts with others.
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Offline Mason11987

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2006, 05:44:12 pm »
I never said that I expect these things to be included with the game, just that I hope it will be..

Personally I'm not much of a fan of 'dumbing' a game down just to make it easier to play for people who don't care about detailed information and micromanagement, but if that's the way Spore goes, it's fine by me.. I always feel the best way to go in such a situation is to let the AI handle the management for people who don't care about details (for instance: if you play aggressively the AI would assign the police state choice to your city/civ) and on the other hand let the player handle the management if they like to tinker with the controls behind the scenes..

One of the main reasons why I assumed religion (of some kind) would be included in the game is because of this concept art posted some time ago:
*snip recruit tools image

Like I said, I hope the game isn't going to be 'dumbed' down just to keep things simple, but that is indeed what I fear.. I guess we'll all have to wait for E3 indeed! Can't wait to see what's going to be divulged!  ;D

That IS a picture of recruitment tools specifically, you know that right? ;)
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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2006, 05:55:33 pm »
The Cybernetic society is base on the idea that AIs will do all the heavy governing and leting the citizens get as mush freedom and time as possible in that process. The citizens them self many or many not be Cybernetic augmented. It up to them.


That sounds more like technocratic and little to nothing to do with cybernetic.
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Offline Yokto

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2006, 07:03:21 pm »
Well you have to go to the root of what Cybernetics mean. And it is on many levels smiler to the technocratic movement.  Both believing that science will lead the way. But may the difference is that in a Cybernetics society computers actually the executive rule and not human as is often the case in Technocratic society. still the limit is blurry especially if we consider that some humans and machines can merge. Thier are also to a less extent diffrent goals in a Cybernetics and a Technocratic society.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 07:11:29 pm by Yokto »
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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2006, 08:37:38 pm »
I think I was making a point of how Artificial Intelligence and Cybernetics are not inclusive.

The field of cybernetics (not the be confused with cyborgs they aren't the same or related in any critical way, the names are the result of miscommunication decades ago) started in the 40's. Artificial Intelligence was a concept created in the 60's, granted AI was essentially birthed from cybernetics.

AI and Cybernetics are phillisophically different, AI being based on realist perception while Cybernetics is based on constructivist perception. AI is based entirely on technology. Cybernetics is much broader and applies to technology, biology, and the abstract.

Essentially AI believes that knowledge is something tangible and storeable. Cybernetics is more about the reaction, the reproduction of adaptive relationships....perhaps ironically like all this procedural spore stuff compared to other games. As in spore essentially adapts to the stimulii we impose on it, where say sim city, we're still creating but what is occuring is the manipulation of existing data, the buildings are pre determined, already stored.

In AI intelligence can be summed up as the manipulation of information, Cybernetics is more circular with its intelligence resides in obsevered conversations. (conversations meaning the flow of information in every and anything, from human senses, to mechanical responses, etc)

They're just fundamentally different.
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Offline MorgothTheEnemy

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2006, 08:51:20 pm »
Back on topic,

I hope there will be religion in the game partly because my Grackens are heavily based on it. Not only that but government would be interesting because you could use it as a way to govern your colonies like when you assign the auto control option in civ where the computer acts like a governer while your away. The government settings could be simple, Social and Economic scales or sliders, that have different strengths and weaknesses.
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Offline slugfly

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2006, 09:15:25 pm »
Personally, I'd rather just have it the way it is and let the extra detailed features be added in Spore 2.

I'm fully against sequels.  There's no reason at all (especially when using largely on-the-fly generated graphics) that a game can't be upgraded instead of tossed aside for a sequel.  Everything you could want in a sequel could be added with an expansion (this includes a new 'story' and area, new features, ugpraded graphics and sounds, new menu features, etc.) and you could actually make the game much larger and better with an expansion than a sequel because an expansion doesn't need to remake all of the original stuff again.

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2006, 09:22:24 pm »
yeh but it takes lots of work to change whole system procedures.

Plus sequels give you a fresh feeling not so much in Spore because it doesnt have a storyline but also sequels make lots of money. I like sequels but I appreciate expansion packs too. (warcraft needs to continue now)
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Offline jarnomiedema

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2006, 02:57:52 am »
That IS a picture of recruitment tools specifically, you know that right? ;)

Haha.. Yeah, I know.. But recruitment for what? The army? Your religion? Your civilization?

I think the most likely option is the army or raiding parties, but that altar-thingie just gave off some 'religious' vibes..

Also, Yokto:
I copied the choices from the Alpha Centauri entry at Wikipedia and simplified them a bit.. As far as I know, Cybernetic should refer to the gradual implementation of more and more cybernetic parts into (in this case) human society and Eudaimonic should indeed be utopian, but generally refers to striving to have citizens be as happy as possible..

Here are the descriptions from the Wikipedia entry, which are quoted directly from the game:
Future society represents advanced social engineering models, which can be used very late in the game after extensive research and much experience with social engineering.
- None is the default future society. This represents that the player's society has not yet developed a future society.
- Cybernetic is the future society where artificial intelligence has taken over the menial tasks of society, allowing humans devote their time to creative pursuits. Its downside is the civil unrest often caused as people have their jobs taken by machines.
- Eudaimonic is virtue in accord with excellence: the citizens of this society achieve ultimate happiness by striving to fulfil their greatest potential.
- Thought control is the future society where mind-control methods are used to utterly subjugate the citizens of the player's society.

Offline Yokto

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2006, 04:26:04 am »
Well the problem is that a societies goals can not be used to describe a society. Most societies try to achieve happiness. Even a Thought control could be seen as a twisted search for happiness for where their is no desires their is no lack ether. Simples way to create a Thought control society would be to simply give the citizens drugs that are simple to manufacture and do minmum damage to is citizens. Is very easy when one read the list to think that Eudaimonic is paradise, Cybernetic is OK and Thought control is hell. But one should read a little more carefull what the text actually says. One will notes that all the social models both have flaws and addavantages. And taking  Thought control would not stop you from having democracy at the same time. (Even if one can question what type of democracies where a majority of the people is dope up on drugs all the time is.)

The last list you presented is correct. Of course is a straight copy from SMAC own in game list. It shows that more about the good and bad sides of all the societies.

to Protoavis: As you see from the list posted by jarnomiedema that in SMAC Cybernetic uses artificial intelligence for the micro management of societies as a hole. I know however that when the ideas of a Cybernetic was first started to surface it was not really about letting AI take control over executive rule. So you observation is correct as a hole but do not fit perfectly with the ideas of a Cybernetic societies in SMAC.

As for what society i would like to live in i think i have to say Cybernetic because it would probably give me most freedom. Something that i think can be hinders in Thought control society where my desires would be eliminated and Eudaimonic society where i would be seen as a renegade if i decided to do something I'm no naturally good at.

Well back to topic.

I actually hope that Spore will not go in to cultural detail where you choice how many gods you small sporeling worship. I think the idea that one instead build once culture with the tools and by once actions affects how the culture things is a lot better. If you wish to have a temple the build it. If you wish you sporeling to dance and have rituals then make them sensitive. Simple is probably the best. And what fun would it be if you sporeling just worship a number? If you set that you culture should have 3 gods but you would not see the difference why have that feature? And by having a Cultural worship building or smiler you could created any god or even any item to worship. It would be fun to see them worship a TV sation or maybe a gigant statue of a donut.  ;D
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Offline Mason11987

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2006, 04:52:17 pm »
That IS a picture of recruitment tools specifically, you know that right? ;)

Haha.. Yeah, I know.. But recruitment for what? The army? Your religion? Your civilization?

Your tribe ;).
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2006, 07:01:18 pm »
Personally, I'd rather just have it the way it is and let the extra detailed features be added in Spore 2.

I'm fully against sequels.  There's no reason at all (especially when using largely on-the-fly generated graphics) that a game can't be upgraded instead of tossed aside for a sequel.  Everything you could want in a sequel could be added with an expansion (this includes a new 'story' and area, new features, ugpraded graphics and sounds, new menu features, etc.) and you could actually make the game much larger and better with an expansion than a sequel because an expansion doesn't need to remake all of the original stuff again.

I didn't mean a sequel specifically, I just meant that I wouldn't want the dev team to delay the release even more just to add all these extra details, because such things can be added later, whether it be by mod teams, as an expansion, or a sequel.

Besides, it was Will Wright's design from the beginning to make Spore be several simpler games put together rather than one very complicated game. So wishing for these kind of details is pretty pointless.

But I don't doubt that there will be some basic government systems and cultural things, since he did specify that during the Tribal Stage you would be developing your culture, and during the Civ Stage you could make peaceful negotiations and deals with your neighboring cities (meaning you don't need to conquer the world by force, you can make peace treaties and alliances instead). But the Civ Stage, for example, is definitely going to be simpler than the game Civilization, just like the City Stage will be simpler than SimCity, etc. This isn't speculation, it's what Will Wright said during the GDC '05 presentation.

Offline JakeCourtney

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2006, 08:00:30 pm »
Err, I just want E3 to get here so we know a little more about this damn game.

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2006, 10:54:43 pm »
I thought such things were irrelivant to spore, because how you actually played your species/civ would determine its "personality" and consequently, how other civs react to it.

jarnomiedema: Alpha Centauri's gov system was inspired. At first, I thought wierd things like a "free market police state" would never happen in the real world. Then, I realized that's what China is like right now.

Offline dvalladt

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2006, 08:36:42 am »
Re: "dumbing down", I think Spore is trying to be an aesthetic experience, Will Wright has already pointed that the game won't be the deepest, and I'm very curious to know how does it play out in the end. He said that this stage was a "simpler version" of this, and that stage was a "simpler version" of that, except, I guess, the first stage, wich will be a "deeper version" of Pacman ;)

While I like deep simulation and strategy games, I has big expectations about, errr, "aesthetic games", and the trend Spore might start. I'm the kind of person that cared about making a beautiful city, and a great looking army, the first times I played "Age of empires" -before my brother learnt that and I started to eat the dust every time.

Like Deleuze used to say, "if superficiality is a lack of depth, isn't depth a lack of surface?"

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2006, 09:23:27 am »
I'd love this game to be whatever the player wants it to be; If you want a simple game, leading your creatures up to the space age, then fine, and similarly if you want to get more involved and deeper into the science/genetics aspect of it, then it would be possible too.

Actually I might see if i can dig up a copy of one of the Creatures games. Only problem with them is that they're fun for about 20 minutes.

Offline Yokto

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Re: Religion, items, and government...
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2006, 10:34:50 am »
I think the depth of the game will come from the interaction of all the tools and elements. Why would we need a list of gods if we could make the temple our self? Why would we need a preset government when we can change our sporelings to savage beast or to peace loving  cowards via our actions? I feel is mush more rewarding to watch my creature do stuff rather then see a list of statistics.

Statstics are good however but only when they are valid. Valid statistic in this game would be how many times my creature have eaten and stuff like that. But to know how many good they worship without havening any effect on the gameplay is just pointless. And I'm a afraid that if Religion was done is the same way as SMAC (Which by the way is one of my all time favorite games) that we will actually lose the freedom to tools give. Also we need to leave a little out to the fantasy. In SMAC we did not see the citzens but i did imagine them. In Spore we can see the citzens but we do not have to see how the government works directly.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2006, 03:59:57 pm by Yokto »
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