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Offline syphonbyte

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Politics
« on: May 16, 2005, 10:35:37 am »
I think that we all knew this was coming after the Religion topic was started. I suppose it would be a good thing to localize all politics discussion here, anyhow, that way we don't have stuff cropping up in other topics. So, I guess I'll start things off by talking about my own political opinions, that way we can start trashing them.

I'm a Republican, but not an extreme right-wing guy like a lot of Republicans are becoming. Basically, I have very right-wing views on the economy and I'm a big Reaganomics fan, but I'm far more moderate on social issues. I believe in the rights of people to do pretty much what they like as long as it stays within legal boundaries. Maybe I should make a list of stuff:

  • I support first trimester abortion, and maybe second trimester. If somebody's life is in danger then I you can go ahead and abort as well. I think parental notification for abortions is definitely important and should be mandatory.
  • As for gay rights, I think that marriage as a political institution should be remade into civil unions, and that religious aspects can be handled seperately. I don't see any reason why two people can't get "joined," to quote the Sims. Calling it "marriage" throws in a lot of religious stuff that's best handled elsewhere. I think that gay couples can adopt kids if they want, as well.
  • About religion in government; I don't like the idea of prayer or religious contexts in schools if it's mandatory. I do think that teaching about major religions is a beneficial thing as long as it's all done evenly. I do think that the Ten Commandments can be displayed in federal buildings as long as other major religious law symbols are shown as well.
  • Gun control: I think safety devices on guns is definitely important, but all these crazy laws about not owning guns are absurd. There should be safety training, of course, but it should vary based on guns. I don't think people should be able to own, say, a live tank, but I see nothing wrong with somebody owning an AK-47 if they have the license and knowhow to get it.
  • Death penalty: I'm for it. That's about all I have to say on the subject, as well.
  • Education: I think education should be brought down more to the local level with programs similar to Nixon's money-sharing ideas. I can't really think of much else to say about it.
  • Homeland security policies: I think the current policies are good ideas, and I belive in the classic "if you've done nothing wrong you have no reason to worry" adage.
  • Middle East: We should try to warm up to the middle east by lowering our involvement in Israel and Iraq substantially, then organize a redrawing of Mideast Borders based on ethnic and religious lines.
  • Health Care: The current path we are going down isn't sufficient, and we should allow drugs from Canada and other nations to be sold in the US as long as they pass our standards and the same tests that our drugs pass. Untested drugs should stay illegal. Socialized healthcare is impractical, inefficient and I don't like any form of it.
  • Social Security: Do away with the whole thing, I've been saying that since Clinton's administration. It was supposed to be a depression recovery program and not the biggest cost for the federal government. Even if it takes tax increases, we need to get rid of it. And I hate tax increases.
  • Taxes: We need to restructure the tax code and outlaw sales taxes, then implement a flat, say, 5% income tax on everybody. This way is much more fair than our current system in which the middle class bears most of the load in tax payments while the wealthy and poor manage to pay far little taxes. If anybody wants I'll go deeper into the economics of it all.
  • Environment: I don't really think it's in such bad shape, but we do need to do something about it. Decreasing funding in "alternative energy" sources should happen, and we should transfer that funding to nuclear fusion research. With fusion we could get rid of all the polluting energy sources and make substantial gains.

That's all I can think of, at any rate.

^Props to those of you who know that quote^



Offline Psilontech

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Re: Politics
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2005, 12:18:09 pm »
I am guilty of being a liberal.

close half of out military bases across the world, which suprisingly, is one of the few things I think Bush is doing right... they cost too much money and serve too little purpose.
After this whole Iraq crap is finished with, we need to cut military spending significantly... Its not like we are at a direct threat of invasion...
As for Health Care, copy canada's way of doing it.
Gay Rights: Let 'em do what they want to do. Its no skin off of my back.
Death Penalty: If these is little chance of rehabilitation, then fry the sucker. No need spending tax dollars on feeding the leech on society.
Significant reforms need to be made in education... for the love of god, 8 people in my english class spelled 'peace' in 'a seperate peace' as peice!!!!
Abortion: Hey, first trimester, I'm all for it, but after that... no.
Legalize Prostitution, Gambling, Drugs, and have all them regulated and taxed!! You know how many billions of dollars would be saved by stopping that retarded 'war on drugs' and taxing it?? Help us get out of that multi-trillion dollar defecit 'our' leaders have gotten us into... How long has it been sence the government has been without debt?
Oh, and as for "if you've done nothing wrong you have no reason to worry", that theory if full of crap, and I like you less for saying it.;)
Uh... Can't think of anything else right now, someone post their opinions and I will either agree with you or tell you why your opinion is wrong ;D
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Offline Legodragonxp

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Re: Politics
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2005, 02:41:31 pm »
I liken thread like this to smashing ones thumb with a hammer, painful and pointless. Why not add to it...
-Abortion- You make your own choice and you live with it. Don't tell others how to deal with their bodies.
-Gay rights - When they balance it both ways I'll be fine with it. My only issue now is that I (male) could not get a girlfriend covered under my health insurance (academic, I'm married), but if I had a boyfriend I could. The line is already blurred. Otherwise, do mess with me I won't mess with you.
-Religion in government - Touchy, but inherent to the system. There is not a 'single solution' to the problem.
-Gun Control - I believe it was Heinlien that said, "An armed society is a polite society". I think people need to go armed more. I think a lot of the stupidity that we see and down-right bullying would go away if the fear of getting shot for being an @$$hole were there.
-Death Penalty - If there is proof they did it beyond a reasonable doubt, kill them. Save the money. Sorry, we waste far too much money on these guys with all the court crap and lodging.
-Education - Discontinue 'grades' (1st grade, 2nd grade, etc...) and go to a system of educational testing. If you pass the test you go on, if you don't you stay back. Too many people are sliding, and too many smart people are being held back. Sorry if we hurt your feelings, study more. No more free rides.
-Homeland Security - What you do at home is your business. In public you'll most likely be under more scrutiny. I don't think the NSA should be working to hunt citizens down for non-national security matters. Yes I know, massive gray area... How would you like a speeding ticket mailed to you because they tracked you with a J-STARS to your home?
-Middle East - There are two stories unfolding. One oil is getting harder to come by, and when it runs out in the middle east the industrialized nations will give up on them. Secondly there is the fear that these nations will attack ours and blackmail ours with WMDs or terrorism. Sadly, we need to be influencing the middle east as long as possible if we (the Western World, not just the USA, look up the defense budgets for the top ten countries in the world, then see who pisses and moans when the USA does stuff, pot-to-kettle-come-in-kettle)
-Health Care is F-ed up. Time to make all the lawyers sick so that they can wait in line too. There needs to be price fixing and liability insurance reform.
-Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid - Cap it and enforce it. Make it criminal to defraud it.
-Taxes are not good, but the current system is so intertwined to our economy any major revamp could be destabilzing. No matter what the rules are, the rich will find a way around it, get used to it.
-Environment - Time to swing the other way. Too many things are too being held up because of environmental paperwork. There is a need for protection, but some of the rules are getting downright stupid. (Many military based are still open because the cost to clean them up is higher than leaving them there)
- Foreign Oil - Declare war on energy. Make hydrogen power a national emergency. Devote to it like the manhatton project. Yes it'll cost billions but we are going to have to do it anyways.

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Offline s0lidmetal

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Re: Politics
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2005, 03:11:39 pm »
OH boy...

Abortion
It should be the mothers' choice.  Some people can't afford another baby.  You have to be a pretty greedy person if you wouldn't die for the happines of your family...  For those who can afford a baby they would just neglect and hate it anyway and it would be screwed up.  Plus the aborted babies can be used for stem cell research to cure the world.  Remember, Hitler was an un-aborted baby.  ;)

Stem Cell Research
Why not?

Gun Control
Crimes are not commited by people with licensed guns!  The FBI needs to find out where these guns are coming from and bust them.

Gay Marriage
Gay people don't complain when straight people get married so lighten up!

Religion in Government
Religion influences Govt way too much.  The only reason it's popular is because all the southern states are religious freaks.  Politicians get a larger vote because they appeal to the religios crowd.

Death Penalty
So you guys hate abortion but don't mind killing possibly innocent men?  It should be the prisoner's decision to die.  Life in prison is far more painful than death.  Though, they shouldn't have TV, clean clothes, or other luxeries taxes pay for.

Environment
Global warming?  Who cares?  I'll be dead before it affects me.  By the time it does any real damage to us we'll probably have figured out some solution.

Taxes
Technically the Govt doesn't have the authority to tax US citizens (http://www.861.info/message.html).  We'll see about that.

Education
School should be optional.  That way we could remove the idiots who drag the rest of us behind in school.  And there should be a 3 strike system that will permanently expell anyone who misbehaves.  Kids today misbehave all they like because teachers have no power...everyone is too afraid of being sued nowadays to do anything.  I like Legodragonxp's idea for an education plan too.

Disabled/Retarded Persons
Why are there rehibilitation programs for these guys?  They don't get any smarter so why should they be forced to go through school to be laughed at?  They're just gonna end up getting disability chegks from the government for the rest of their days.

Selective Breeding/Eugenics
We need to breed particular types of people: Mindless workers who will work for cheap, possibly slaves.  Polititions.  And Proffesionals.  If this system doesn't work, the next best thing would be an application proccess to have children.  The test would include a physical, and an IQ test.

War on "Terror" aka Iraq
The war was a complete mistake frome the start but we gotta finish what Bush started.

Video Games and Media in general
There should be no age limits to any media.  I never understood that.

Offline Tr0n

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Re: Politics
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2005, 03:15:00 pm »
I'm really not any sort of classification, because I don't know much about politics.  If my opnions classify me, lemme know.

Abortion:  1st trimester only... the emotional waves will be felt for a lifetime, but it should be her choice.  Also acceptable if the mother is going to die if she has the child.... it should be her choice.

Gay Rights:  Homosexuals are humans too.  While I do not support their sexual style, I must respect their humanity and give them all of the freedoms of their country and religion.

Religion in Gov't:  We just can't do that anymore.  Too many religions and too many views.  We'd spend all year arguing and never get anything done.  And we'd get opposing votes by one religion just because they don't like the other.  That happens enough with the bipartisan system as it is.

Gun Control:  If you disarm the population, you make them cannon fodder for who who do not follow the law.  I forget who said it, but "if you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them."

Death Penalty:  I'm still torn.  I'm more for it than against it.  I do acknowledge that no one truly has the right to take a life aside from God.  But tell that to the family of a ten year old who was raped, chopped up, and it was all filmed.  I say, "fry him."

Education:  It needs a MAJOR overhaul, especially in the south.  It needs more funding than almost anything else.  An educated population is a powerful one (but also a dangerous one to whomever has been controlling them all along, which is why I think education in America sucks so bad).

Homeland Security:  If I were a terrorist, I'd strap a nuke to a truck carrying Mexicans over the border.  It would be sure to blow up something in America.  Moral of the story:  for all the freedom we've been restricting, we've done little to nothing to seal the holes in our country's security.  It's worse today than it was on 9/11.... and that's from a stupid citizen's point of view.  Do it right and close borders to all without proper ID or just let it go.

Middle East:  I didn't know we had the right to invade any country that might have "weapons of mass destruction."  Since we obviously do, why aren't we stationed in about eight other countries all over the world?  Oh, yeah.... look who our president is.  He's finishing what daddy started and he's getting my friends and relatives killed to do it.  Oh wait... we got Saddam.  Then why the hell are we sending MORE of our brave men and women over there when chidren are dying in OUR streets and you can find drugs, sex, and guns at every street corner in America?  Why are we shoving our fat noses where it doesn't need to be if our country is rotting from the inside?  Pull those soldiers out of the middle of nowhere, let them lead their lives, and put all of this wasted money into reforming OUR country.  We need help more than most of the places we're poking around in!

Health Care:  Capitalism at it's finest.  People are sick and dying, ladies and gentleman!!!  We need all the help we can get and we're letting our grandparents and children die because the pharmacutical companies want to make an extra dime.  This is the one area where there should be no bickering or haggling.  Besides, if you truly want more money, you know that you can't make more money off of a dead man, right?

Social Security:  I'm torn again.  There needs to be some program in place, but not one that's crippling our economy.  The current state of it all is dragging the nation down.  It needs reform or it needs to be ditched.

Taxes:  We can all complain, but it's not going to change.  It's controlled by the biggest crooks in the country, where the rich have their hands in everyone's pockets, even the government's.  I've given in to the fact that the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer (most do not even file... but they don't own anything either).  I do not desire to be rich, not do I desire to be poor.  I just try to keep my head up.

Environment:  If it keeps going, Earth is going to be a wasteland.  While I like big towering cities, it's not as much a matter of aesthetics as it is a matter of making the planet unlivable.  We need to preserver what we have left and save it for research.  All these people running scared because of meltdowns need to understand that nuclear energy is possibly the world's savior as it stands.  Besides, planes crash and cars collide, do we all just walk?  No.  Chain reacting fusion needs to happen if the coming energy crisis is to be averted and our environments are to be saved.  I also thing that zoning laws need to be redone and need to be nonnegotiable.  I've seen places that residentials couldn't move onto that a company pays a few million and can set down a processing plant.  That land is priceless, and that few million bucks or whatever shady deals that happened are going to cost way more when the surface of Earth gets to be a few hundred degrees.

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Offline Cool AN

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Re: Politics
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2005, 03:15:16 pm »

Video Games and Media in general
There should be no age limits to any media.  I never understood that.


Surely you can't agree on a six year old playing GTA, they are still very easily effected at that time.

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Offline s0lidmetal

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Re: Politics
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2005, 03:52:27 pm »
If they're smart enough to figure it out, that is.

Offline Ameg

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Re: Politics
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2005, 04:18:23 pm »
Man, this is the first political thread I've ever seen where people aren't screaming at each other half way down the first page. Too bad. I was really looking forward to screaming.

Abortion: ONLY if the mother or child will die from giving birth.

Gay Marriage: Personally gays just sicken me, it just seems unnatural. Give'm unions if you must.

Gun Control: Without it, criminals will have guns. With it, criminals will have guns. Without it, I will have a gun.

Stem Cell Research: We don't need human embryos for it. I've heard that pig fat works just as well.

Middle East: EVERYONE thought they had WMDs, including anti-war countries. Not only this but Iraq has served as a vacuum for terrorism. Many extremists who could have pulled off another 9/11 are dead or captured because of our presence of there. I would much rather that they blow themselves up in Iraq than over here.

Education: I'm in the 8th grade and....man are some of these kids dumb. I mean I'm tutoring a 16 year old who failed this grade twice. Something has got to be done. Lego's and Solid's ideas sound good to me.

Environment/Fuel: Well since oil isn't going to be around for much longer, then we will probably soon find another (cleaner) source of energy. Nuclear energy is probably the future although how thats going to power cars isn't apparent to me.

Death Penalty: If they deserve it, go for it.

Taxes: Booooooooooooooooooooooooooo *ahem* ooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Tax system is much too complicated. Lets just put a consumption and flat tax up there and do away with the current web.a




Offline syphonbyte

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Re: Politics
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2005, 06:14:54 pm »
How long has it been sence the government has been without debt?

I belive that was Jefferson's presidency. Seriously.

Quote from: Legodragonxp
Foreign Oil - Declare war on energy. Make hydrogen power a national emergency. Devote to it like the manhatton project. Yes it'll cost billions but we are going to have to do it anyways.

I'm with you 100% on this. We need hydrogen and fusion power ASAP or the damn commies will get it first. (Joke)

Quote from: s0lidmetal
Technically the Govt doesn't have the authority to tax US citizens

I'm pretty sure that's the 18th amendment, or around there... congress gets authority to levy an income tax. I'll check out the link, though.

All in all, I'm really impressed at the maturity of everybody in this topic. I'm also sort of suprised that there are actually other conservatives out there... although I suppose I'm just used to more liberal attitudes, being that I live in a college town and all.

Yeah, I feel like expounding on my views about the War now, since I sort of dodged it in my post. I think that, looking back, there is no way we should have invaded Iraq. Maybe bombed it or something, but invasion was a bad idea. Unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20, and we didn't know what kind of quagmire we'd be walking into. (Resisting urge to post giant image of Quagmire from Family Guy...) I believe that there were definitely WMDs in Iraq, but they probably got buried in the middle of the desert when we invaded. Nobody will ever find them now. What we need to do now is either: allow the UN to have a bigger part in the occupation and reduce our military presence (<-How do you spell that word?), which would make us look good but in the end result in Iraq reverting to a dictatorship, or we could launch very large-scale attacks and quit sitting around with our thumbs in our *ahem* rears. That wouldn't look so good, but might allow democracy a better foothold in the country.

Either way, we need to rework our policy in the middle east. I think that we've been buddy-buddy with Israel too long, and the only good that came from it was the Camp David Accords and Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear facility in the 80's. We need to warm up to mideast nations and try to show that we aren't hostile to Islam. If we can do that, then we can probably reduce tensions and try to fix the problems that Britain started when they drew lines around oil fields and called them countries after World War I.

And I guess that's it for now.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 06:31:48 pm by syphonbyte »

Offline Ameg

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Re: Politics
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2005, 06:42:34 pm »
  Although at times it seems we have our thumbs up our asses, we have launched large attacks since after the war was over. Falujah and the Operation Matador that just ended seem to have made some progress. I notice that there isn't nearly as much bad news coming from Iraq of late, but unfortunatly news stations can't report "There was no bombs today", so no good news gets reported. I honestly believe the only reason this war seemed so bad is because the amount of media attention it got.

  As far as us being buddy buddy with Israel, if we wern't they would be at war right now. The Jews are surrounded by enemies right now and we have to act as the balancing force to make sure that they realize we won't let them invade Israel (although last time they tried they Israel whooped up on em).

Offline syphonbyte

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Re: Politics
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2005, 07:32:37 pm »
It may be true that Iraq has been getting negative media attention, but I don't think it's as responsible as the media in Vietnam. I belive that a lot of it has to do with popular opinion against the president which translates into opinion against anything he does.

But on the subject of Israel, I don't think it's our place to protect them. If they want their holy land, they can defend it like the Ottomans did for hundreds of years. You don't see Christians running in, even though it's our holy land as well. It seems to me that a lot of people aren't very good at sharing in Israel.

Offline DevilMachine

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Re: Politics
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2005, 09:59:19 pm »
all I have to say is this -

if the entire world had voted on the last USA elections, Kerry would have won with a gigantic majority.

Offline syphonbyte

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Re: Politics
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2005, 06:41:36 am »
Perhaps, but the entire world isn't made of U.S. citizens, therefore the statistic doesn't really matter. It's not the world's place to dictate who becomes the president of the U.S. because it's not up to the world.

Offline Legodragonxp

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Re: Politics
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2005, 07:29:11 am »
all I have to say is this -

if the entire world had voted on the last USA elections, Kerry would have won with a gigantic majority.

True, but the majority of the world would like to see the USA fall apart and be sidelined, so that isn't exactly a compliment to Mr. Kerry. The last election proved two things. Our country needs work, and we are split on what we need to do. There is another election in a few years we'll see what happens then. Even if Kerry had won, he would have had his power severly limited by the republican controlled congress.

Neither person is really what we need, but there wasn't a whole lot of choice. Change will not happen overnight from internal stimuli. We as a country would tear itself apart (in my opinion) if left to its own internal workings. I could go on, but it would probably be better handled on a thread about economics rather than politics. Leaders come and go, but money runs the world.
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Offline pfellah

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Re: Politics
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2005, 02:33:36 pm »
I'll jump in for a few minutes while I wait for my ride home from work:

Overall: I don't consider myself Democrat or Republican. Like the original poster, I'm more conservative on economic issues and more liberal on conservative issues. I might be willing to be a Libertarian, but they take it too far with some issues.

Abortion: while it's my general preference that people wouldn't put themselves in that situation, it should be legal. You don't force people into parenthood who clearly aren't ready... all that does is screw up two lives. And I always notice that very few pro-lifers are prepared to dig into their pockets to cover the societal costs of all these unwanted babies.

Gay Rights: If we supposedly separate church and state, why should gays who are in a committed relationship be entitled to lesser citizenship? Gays have to pay the same taxes the rest of us do, but they don't get to enjoy the same benefits -- so how about we let gays pay 60% or 70% of the taxes of a heterosexual, since they're viewed as lesser citizens? And if marriage is about procreation, what about hetero couples who are medically unable to have babies, or hetero couples who just don't WANT to? I don't see the harm of civil unions. (Just for point of reference, I'm hetero and married... if you're wondering where my opinion is rooted.)

Church and State: They need to be separate, but some of the little stuff like putting "God" on money or making people say the Pledge of Allegiance just needs to roll off people's backs. There are some things that just exist as traditions without implying any meaning. On the other hand, they don't teach math in church; they shouldn't teach religion in schools -- the most valid SCIENTIFIC theory of human development is evolution; if you are teaching a SCIENCE class, it's valid course material.

Gun Control: Technology develops, and laws adapt to technology. Witness Napster. Clearly the FCC concept of "fair use" isn't "put it on a website so 10,000 total strangers can download it". Similarly, keeping a gun in your home for personal protection and keeping a freaking arsenal are separate concepts and should be handled separately. A piece in your house? More power to you. Automatic weaponry and teflon-coated cop-killer bullets? There's no valid reason a citizen needs to have those. And remember, the 2nd was for the creation of a WELL-REGULATED militia... not a bunch of mouth-breathing weekend-warrior asshats.

Death Penalty: Absolutely. Some people can't be redeemed, so the planet is better without them. Particularly the sickos who prey on little kids.

Middle East/Iraq: I agree with GWB that we don't need to get the permission of the French (billions a year from the UN food-for-oil program; heckova reason to preserve the status quo, wouldn't you say?), but taking our troops into battle should be a last resort after ALL other avenues have failed, and I don't believe in my heart we exhausted all other options, nor did the Bush administration do the proper due diligence.

Gonna let the rest go for now... may re-edit later to add more comments.