Author Topic: binary star systems  (Read 7572 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Brutus

  • Little Computer Person
  • *****
  • Posts: 4511
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2006, 03:39:40 pm »
inother words, make the barycentre the ocation of your planet.
Never mind your own business.

Offline Sporific

  • Dragster Diehard
  • ***
  • Posts: 330
  • Call me Jake. Jake Bond.
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2006, 03:54:38 pm »
In that example wouldn't the brown dwarf simply rotate around the red dwarf but would both instead rotate around a common barycenter. Depending on the mass of both objects could this result in a very variable distance between the brown dwarf and the red dwarf, making the temperatures of your brown dwarf planet/moon also very variable. You can see a simulation of how double stars behave depending on mass relation here: http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/astro101/java/binary/binary.htm You clearly see that the distance between the 2 stars varies a lot. Thought live could possible adapt to this by doing a wintersleep or by moving between the north and south depending on the current temperature(like birds do).

Thought it's an interesting idea to have live on a brown dwarf it's moon/planet, maybe could the brown dwarf itself radiate enough heat for your planet or generate at least enough heat to help your planet survive the cold periods when the red dwarf is far away from the brown dwarf. Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune already produce more heat then they receive from the sun. Brown dwarfs have 12-89 times more mass and they fuse deuterium(not sure how much extra heat that would produce).
The tides created by the brown dwarf would be gigantic(similar with how Jupiter it's tides transformed IO in an extremely unstable planet with quite constant volcanic eruptions) just like it's magnetic field. Could a planet/moon of a brown dwarf be close enough to have habitable temperatures without becoming a second IO where constant volcanic eruptions and magnetic fields make live impossible?

It is believed that there is a gigantic amount of brown dwarfs, so even if there is only a very small chance that one has a habitable planet could there still be many :) We know only 10% of the galaxy it's predicted mass and some people believe that most of the remaining 90% are brown dwarfs, that's a lot of dwarfs :)

LOL, when I first read this I thought you were totally bashing me so I typed up a defensive response, but then realized you were helping me out a bit.

Yeah, I haven't completely thought it through but basically what I imagined was that solar flares and such from the red dwarf caused reactions in the brown dwarf that would make it periodically sprout up just enough heat to keep the planet okay. During the periods when Cataphon is in extreme cold, which last about fifty days a year, they do indeed hibernate. As for tides, Cataphon has no oceans but does have many, many small lakes which are kind of holes in the land mass. Since they are not large enough to create real tides, the brown dwarf causes the lakes to flood constantly, which is something Cataphans use to their advantage. Haven't thought about the volcano thing, any ideas?
LOL SPORE ON MAC.
"The surest sign that there's intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't visited us."
Quote from: lolasan
Procedurally Generate That!

Offline Brutus

  • Little Computer Person
  • *****
  • Posts: 4511
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2006, 04:11:14 pm »
a planet in that positon would have active volcanoes becauase the gravitational friction from being inbetween 2 planets would make the inside molten, this has happened with jupiters first moon,
a planet in that position would be to hot for all but the toughest of life, a moon and jupiter can make a planet as active as earth so 2 stars would create a massive amount of energy and make the planet incredibly active,
Never mind your own business.

Offline qyasogk

  • Space Invaders Junkie
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2006, 04:12:23 pm »
inother words, make the barycentre the ocation of your planet.

the gravitational forces of two suns pulling at your planet would turn your planet in a moon like Io at BEST, and more than likely just rip it to shreds.

Offline Brutus

  • Little Computer Person
  • *****
  • Posts: 4511
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2006, 04:16:24 pm »
inother words, make the barycentre the ocation of your planet.

the gravitational forces of two suns pulling at your planet would turn your planet in a moon like Io at BEST, and more than likely just rip it to shreds.



oh yeah, i forgot, but i am still correct with . . . . .

a planet in that positon would have active volcanoes becauase the gravitational friction from being inbetween 2 planets would make the inside molten, this has happened with jupiters first moon,
a planet in that position would be to hot for all but the toughest of life, a moon and jupiter can make a planet as active as earth so 2 stars would create a massive amount of energy and make the planet incredibly active,

Never mind your own business.

Offline Sporific

  • Dragster Diehard
  • ***
  • Posts: 330
  • Call me Jake. Jake Bond.
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2006, 07:46:24 pm »
Well, if Spore is as good as I hope it is, my planet will find a way to adapt!
LOL SPORE ON MAC.
"The surest sign that there's intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't visited us."
Quote from: lolasan
Procedurally Generate That!

Offline Brutus

  • Little Computer Person
  • *****
  • Posts: 4511
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2006, 06:01:22 am »
the fact is spore wont be this realistic so yes, you can just put your planet in the barycentre because i seriously doubt that gravity will play much of a part alone, and the engine would have to be revolutionary to work out and animate when and what a planet will look like when its being ripped apart by gravity.
Never mind your own business.

Offline Samog

  • Karate Champ
  • *****
  • Posts: 3011
  • objectivists are dumb
    • View Profile
    • -
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2006, 06:07:15 am »
the fact is spore wont be this realistic
Could you remind me when the devs started ignoring Will Wright's wishes?
"Fine. Don't believe me. I'm not lying. all your laziness which you mistake for something funney is driving me insane, quit fooling around!  dude this is just wrong, very wrong. reality does not consist of constrained language. go lock this thread malt. I love the payment."4MOD

Offline Brutus

  • Little Computer Person
  • *****
  • Posts: 4511
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2006, 06:10:14 am »
i am sorry but i can not see the engine being so realistic as being able to simulate a real space, its just not gonna happen, none of this complex stuff about planets being ripped apart or gravitational friction (i know i pointed that out) would be involved it would ruin the game for everyone who doesnt know alot bout space.
Never mind your own business.

Offline slugfly

  • Time Pilot Trekker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
    • View Profile
    • SporeFanatic
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2006, 06:15:31 am »
smoke and mirrors man, smoke and mirrors!  A computer program would have to be decades beyond ours to determine how a planet would explode and how the consequent ring would form around the sun...  but it's being done anyway.  It's all smoke and mirrors.  I hope that gravity from nearby bodies (beyond the obvious ones like moon around sun and anything around blackhole) do have an effect.  And yes, it would have to be watered down to a degree but that doesn't have to mean it should be absent.

Offline Brutus

  • Little Computer Person
  • *****
  • Posts: 4511
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2006, 06:24:21 am »
well thats exactly what i'm saying, but after you blo up a planet there is a ring but its not as complicated as a real ring.
Never mind your own business.

Offline Daxx

  • TV Smasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 9445
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2006, 07:35:07 am »
well thats exactly what i'm saying, but after you blo up a planet there is a ring but its not as complicated as a real ring.

No, what you're saying is that the planet won't be ripped apart in the first place. How do you know that? You're not on the dev team, last time I checked.

Offline Stromko

  • Phoenix Fighter
  • **
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2006, 10:16:58 am »
If it was going to explode by its very existence (a planet so placed that it would be ripped apart by gravity) then it would have exploded already and thus not be simulated in the game anyway. It's like saying the game needs an engine to determine what happens to a man that is inherently made of dynamite and inherently on fire... he would instantly cease to exist so what's the point?

But everything's probably orbitting something if you look out far enough, just say the brown dwarf that your planet is orbitting is indeed orbitting a red star, but is far enough away that the planets in its orbits are not ripped to shreds but also so far away that the red dwarf isn't actually visible on the screen.  Does it all really matter if you can see it on the screen? It's just background flavor really. Okay I suppose that people who download your solar system won't get it, but.. :P then they can't stare at their screens in shock and say 'wait that's impossible because of <scientific explanation>' either.

I'm no astronomer but I think that should be plausible, the red star might have less relative pull on the brown dwarf because of the distance involved, but if the brown dwarf is moving parallel at the proper velocity then it should be pulled in at just the right speed that it can be thought of as orbitting. edit: Hrm I guess this also means your planet would be lit by whatever glow a brown dwarf causes instead of the light of a distant red 'dominant' sun, so I suppose it matters. I can't say binary star systems are a bad idea because it can have at least a visual effect, and I believe a lot of scifi has actually involved planets with multiple stars, so I wouldn't call this idea toast at all.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2006, 10:21:50 am by Stromko »

Offline slugfly

  • Time Pilot Trekker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
    • View Profile
    • SporeFanatic
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2006, 11:09:07 am »
It's like saying the game needs an engine to determine what happens to a man that is inherently made of dynamite and inherently on fire...

lmao!!  talk about being born under a bad sign!

Offline kolpo

  • Lunar Lander Leader
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: binary star systems
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2006, 03:12:39 pm »
LOL, when I first read this I thought you were totally bashing me so I typed up a defensive response, but then realized you were helping me out a bit.

Yeah, I haven't completely thought it through but basically what I imagined was that solar flares and such from the red dwarf caused reactions in the brown dwarf that would make it periodically sprout up just enough heat to keep the planet okay. During the periods when Cataphon is in extreme cold, which last about fifty days a year, they do indeed hibernate. As for tides, Cataphon has no oceans but does have many, many small lakes which are kind of holes in the land mass. Since they are not large enough to create real tides, the brown dwarf causes the lakes to flood constantly, which is something Cataphans use to their advantage. Haven't thought about the volcano thing, any ideas?


Sporific, it was not my intention to attack your idea, it was just a very fascinating example that I wanted to investigate and discus.
It would indeed be very interesting to have a planet who's heat comes from another star of it's binary system and not from the star it orbits around. I already posted why I thought it isn't likely, but it seems the difference in mass between brown dwarfs and red dwarfs is much bigger then I thought. So the distance between the bary center(the gravity center around which both stars orbit) and the red dwarf could be much smaller then I thought, resulting in a much more constant distance between the red dwarf and the brown dwarf(making stable temperatures and thus live on it's moons/planets much more likely). To be sure must I calculate it:

Wiki says that red dwarf are between 0.3 and 0.8 times the sun it's mass, so the max mass of them is 0.8* 2 * 10^30 kg(^ this symbol means to the power) =  1.6 * 10^30kg

Wiki also says that a deuterium fusing brown dwarf has to have at least 13 times the mass of Jupiter. Their mass is thus 13*1.9*10^27=24.7*10^27=0.0247*10^30

We want to know the relative position of the bary center. Wiki claims(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycenter) that the formula is

r1(distance from bary center of first mass) = 1(I want the relative distance so I use 1 or 100% for the total distance) * m2/(m1+m2)

I use the heaviest mass as m1, so r1 is the relative distance between the red dwarf and the bary center

r1=1*0.0247*10^30/(1.6 * 10^30kg+0.0247*10^30)=0.0152=1.52%

1.52% isn't that much. This would result in a max distance variation of 2*1.52%=3.04%, which is not that much, and wouldn't heavily change the climate I think.

For comparison if I calculate the same for the sun/Jupiter system:
r1=1*0.0019*10^30/(2*10^30+0.0019*10^30)=0,00094=0.094%

Much smaller, but  even a Max distance variation of 3.04% doesn't seems me enough to cause gigantic climate changes. The bary center math seems to be on the Cataphant's their side :)

Will Wright his games are also aimed at kids and casual gamers, so it shall off course be much easier and less complex to have live on a brown dwarf planet/moon in spore then in reality(just like cooling down Venus was much easier in Sim Earth then it would be in reality).

EDIT: I also found a site with the formula required to calculate the habitable zone around a planet(where water is liquid and live is possible) for a red dwarf of around 0.8 sun masses is it around 0.648 times the distance between the sun and the earth, also called 0.648 AU. At that distance would your planet have slightly more gravity from the red dwarf then earth has from the sun, but because the red dwarf also has only 80% of the sun it's mass shall it not be that much more and certainly not enough to turn your planet in a second IO, it is the brown dwarf his gravity and magnetism I worry about, but because your planet get it's heat from the red dwarf can it be far away from the brown dwarf.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2006, 04:17:59 pm by kolpo »