Author Topic: Spore as educator or agenda?  (Read 12776 times)

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Offline $kelet0r

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2006, 11:32:08 am »
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Prove to me the existance of gravity


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Does the word Strawman mean anything to you?
actually i don't but it sounds like an insult which you've used to really set the tone in this discussion - nice work#

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Try addressing my real arguments. As in, each of them in turn.
You mean like this?
Your arguments can be summed up as
1. It's just a game
2. I'm scaremongering

Both of which are nonsense
1. Nothing is just one thing, a car is not just a machine, a newspaper is not just a news report - that may be there primary function but not their only purpose
2. So I'm scaremongering when I stand up to defend any potential threat to my democratic human rights and freedom of speech, association and belief?

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Oh yes, and you have to provide evidence that it's a realistic proposition.
You mean like this?
Do any of you know what the US senate is debating at the moment?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8729

Do you know who is being sued for $600 million right now?
http://www.gamers.com/index.php?run=news&news_id=5735

Videogaming is on trial right now like comics were in the 1950s. The comics lost the fight back then....

All of which I have already posted - respond to my arguments properly and I'll treat you like an equal - so far you've
1. insulted me
2. dismissed my arguments arrogantly
3. avoided the point by being ignorant of international politics
again nice work - you turned this thread into flamebait but I refuse to rise to it - debate my points reasonably like a man and I'll agree to disagree, otherwise walk away



Offline Daxx

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2006, 11:40:17 am »
Quote
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Prove to me the existance of gravity

Oh dear lord, you mean you don't understand this concept? Look here for a good summary.

Quote
Does the word Strawman mean anything to you?
actually i don't but it sounds like an insult which you've used to really set the tone in this discussion - nice work#

Don't cry for sympathy, it won't help you win your argument. A straw man logical fallacy is (from wikipedia): " a rhetorical technique (also classified as a logical fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position; deriving from the use of straw men in combat training." Article

A good example can be found here:
Quote
Try addressing my real arguments. As in, each of them in turn.
You mean like this?
Your arguments can be summed up as
1. It's just a game
2. I'm scaremongering
Both of which are nonsense

Quote
Quote
Oh yes, and you have to provide evidence that it's a realistic proposition.
You mean like this?
Do any of you know what the US senate is debating at the moment?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8729

Do you know who is being sued for $600 million right now?
http://www.gamers.com/index.php?run=news&news_id=5735

That is not evidence that what you suggest is true.

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ll of which I have already posted - respond to my arguments properly and I'll treat you like an equal - so far you've
1. insulted me
2. dismissed my arguments arrogantly
3. avoided the point by being ignorant of international politics
again nice work - you turned this thread into flamebait but I refuse to rise to it - debate my points reasonably like a man and I'll agree to disagree, otherwise walk away

1. Your point is? This doesn't detract from my argument. I see an conspiricy theorist run wild, I point out a conspiricy theorist run wild.
2. I have still dismissed your arguments. Successfully, too.
3. I am not ignorant of international politics, and to accuse me of being so is utterly ludicrous. It is obvious from your position that you do not understand politics yourself. The US is not a concern, and to say so is not naive, it is the truth. The Far East and Middle East have more bearing on international politics than anything the US does any more. From an economic perspective, the US is no longer the greatest power in the world.
You posted flamebait, you deal with it. I didn't do anything other than correct you.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 11:45:52 am by Daxx »

Offline LadyM

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2006, 11:49:39 am »
Keep this thread on topic and keep it civil please. You can debate this topic without name calling and anger. Please be respectful of each other.

Offline Daxx

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2006, 11:51:26 am »
I would rather these sorts of threads (Evolution and Intelligent Design) were just banned in the first place. They're blatent flamebait. It was just asking for trouble as soon as it was posted.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 11:56:40 am by Daxx »

Offline professor

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2006, 11:54:03 am »
Wow.  All this over a video game.  My, my.  ::)

Offline ProfPendragon

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2006, 02:13:28 pm »
*sigh* So my post reccomending calm discussion earlier in this thread may have fallen on deaf ears?  I guess they're not obligated to listen to the new guy. ^^;

Still, it is interesting to see passionate individuals on both sides debate this... I just wish it could be done with reason, with an aim toward finding a common answer.  Sadly it looks like it's breaking down into a competition to see who is 'right'. 

I think we've all come to the conclusion that spin will be a big part of this debate, should it ever become public.  And discounting anything like illuminati or 'right-wing conspiracies', the government really can't poke at this game at all, insofar as censoring it.  There's nothing vulgar in it (unless you design your creatures to look like giant penises or something; also discounting that 'procedural mating'), it doesn't advocate any particular lifestyle, making it just as easy to interface with aliens peacefully as it does blowing them out of the stars. 

The hand of the player could just as easily be seen as the invisible hand of God, or just the player personified as the creature itself.  When you're playing the paramecium, you're doing it because YOU don't want to be eaten, not because your shepherding something towards a greater existance-- at least, not YET. 

So the short answer as *I* see it is: interpretation.  Spore is whatever you want it to be, and that's exactly how I think it should be.  I think it should make people question the world around them, if nothing else so they can ask intelligent questions and come to their own informed conclusions.  If nothing else, it gets people to talk about the difficult questions. 

NOW all Maxis has to do is create an add-on that helps them to discuss it with a little less passion for 'right and wrong', and a little more passion for truth. 
Spore ID: ProfPendragon

Offline Tantalus

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2006, 03:50:02 pm »
I would rather these sorts of threads (Evolution and Intelligent Design) were just banned in the first place. They're blatent flamebait. It was just asking for trouble as soon as it was posted.

Yeah I'll second that.

Offline Fade2gray

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2006, 06:04:45 pm »
I would rather these sorts of threads (Evolution and Intelligent Design) were just banned in the first place. They're blatent flamebait. It was just asking for trouble as soon as it was posted.

Yeah I'll second that.

Third!

Offline Hydromancerx

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2006, 06:31:35 pm »
What about organ threads? Do they get banned too?

Offline LadyM

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2006, 06:46:37 pm »
You know what is weird? I actually wrote a post for this thread and thought I posted it. :-\ Weird...

People need a place to talk about their ideas or pose questions. There have been many topics that I thought would end up in a flame war but didn't. Most of our members are able to discuss in a civil manner. I don't think these topics need to be banned. If they annoy you, the best thing to do is move on and don't post. Let the people who want to discuss these things debate it out. There is no right or wrong answer, only opinions. ;)

*new guy seems to have some sound advice*

Offline Fade2gray

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2006, 07:50:24 pm »
There is no right or wrong answer, only opinions.  ;)

The problem is that threads like the one we're posting in now begin when someone dismises someone else's views out of hand as ignorant and/or absurd and heated shouting matches ensue were nothing is accomplished and everyone comes off sounding like self righteous *fill in the acronym*'s. The few temperate and intellectual arguments that are made are quickly lost amid the def talking pieces or assimilated into someone else's rant. These flame wars are rarely the honest discussions many like to pretend they are or should be.

Offline starshard0

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2006, 10:51:03 pm »
What I don't understand is why people blame recent technological breakthroughs for causing anything at all. For example, murders, war, violence in general, have been going on for thousands of years. To think that video games are the cause of all this is simply ludicrous. The first real video game was'nt invented until quite recently, and pinball machines (which were banned by the mayor of New York for promoting laziness when they were introduced) have been around a bit longer.

To think that Spore has an agenda is just as silly. Look at Darwin himself, he never played a video game in his life, and he came up with his theories all by himself. Amazing, isn't it? If people have something wrong with Spore (or video games in general), why not just ban television, radio, books, talking about controversial ideas, etc. It's just plain ignorant to assume that video games are the root of all evil. And as far as this stupid lawsuit about GTA goes, I think the only people who need to be held accountable are the stores that sold these games to the minors.
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Offline dvalladt

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2006, 12:46:53 am »
$kelet0r, read "Mediated" by Zengotita (nice name for an Spore species, by the way) if you haven't yet, I'm sure his take on post-modernist forms of representation (say, videogames) and its "continuity"/"amplification" of the modernist agenda will answer some, if not a lot, of your questions. Not to say that Spore is, say, deliberately designed to forward an agenda, but it does abstract a world view, it can be seen as part or larger trends, etc, so I think it's fair that you want to discuss it in those terms if you want to -I'm not very interested, I'd feel a little out of my deep, but I'm surprised at the opposition you're getting!

Offline Daxx

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2006, 01:16:07 am »
People need a place to talk about their ideas or pose questions. There have been many topics that I thought would end up in a flame war but didn't. Most of our members are able to discuss in a civil manner. I don't think these topics need to be banned. If they annoy you, the best thing to do is move on and don't post. Let the people who want to discuss these things debate it out.  There is no right or wrong answer, only opinions.  ;)

Well, I guess if that's what you think then it's fair enough. Having slept on it, I can see that getting angry about it doesn't make a difference. With some people, there is very little hope of convincing them; no amount of argument no matter how logical or complete will prove your point to them.

Rather than banning them, maybe we just shouldn't respond to them. I dunno, post a "Do Not Feed The Trolls" message, but otherwise say nothing. I'm not going to respond here any more, or to any other threads on the same theme, unless I feel that there is logical discussion. I hope others will do the same. Ignoring trolls is the best way of dealing with them, in my experience. And, let's face it, the only people who want to blindly post very controversial stuff to a forum with a note saying "discuss" are trolls.

As LAdyM says:
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If they annoy you, the best thing to do is move on and don't post.

Offline slugfly

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2006, 07:44:14 am »
These sorts of threads are the reason I visit Gamingsteve on an hourly basis while not at work.  I'm so hyped, so thrilled, so tickled into rosy pinkness in my cheeks and certain unmentionable areas that a gaming forum has such intelligent discussion.

I have seen here civil discussions of often argued ideas including evolution, the future of humanity, intelligent design.  That covers the bulk of them but there's also been physics discussions (astro-physics), brief history discussions and others.  I'm thrilled at the fact that I can read a post and know that I'm out of my depth...  you must all know (and those who don't will know eventually) that the greatest swimmers love the deepest and darkest waters.  I like that fact that I often don't understand some of the ideas that are put forward here (particularly when related to physics).  It shows that there's something for me to gain beyond stimulus...  it shows that I'm not just killing time here, waiting to die like so many tv-babies watching their stories in between the prime-time commercials.

This is (maybe) the first topic I've seen related to hot-media and propoganda...   but since it's a topic that is very real, a topic that goes over and above the creation/ID vs. evolution debate, a topic that suggests either directly or indirectly that our very thoughts are being controlled by outside forces, it's a sensitive topic.

Threads like this are great food to the gaming industry, we are not just children being babysat by a tv anymore.  We are thinking adults who unfortunately crave stimulation but also crave art, thought, new ideas, new experiences.  Games have to deliver more than just stimulation and diversion to be great games, to be art.  Threads like this are showing to whoever might be browsing as a part of the industry that we need more than simply diversion.  And it's a way for us to get more than mere diversion out of a game.

It's a shame that Skeletors initial idea was attacked so swiftly...  I suspect that it's no longer the ideas that are being argued though... I suspect that it's the arguements that are being argued.  If I accuse you of stealing something from me, you'll deny it.  Then if I swing my fists you'll swing back.  We're not longer fighting over the theft, we're fighting to be the winner...