Author Topic: Spore as educator or agenda?  (Read 12859 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Granite T. Rock

  • Intellivision Junkie
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
    • View Profile
    • Granite's Homepage
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2006, 08:19:06 pm »
Basically what I'm hearing is:

1.  You like evolution - Then Spore is your game.  Built on the principals of evolution you can see how your little tiny spore turns into a super intelligent being one step at a time.

2.  Don't like evolution and like God the creator?  Then.... Spore is your game.  While no one can ever know what it's like to be God..... you can try and get a sense of how God might of felt when he created life in the universe.  Starting with one creature and playing around with different ideas and make many different creatures to populate the universe with.  There's no random mutations in this game but rather, intentional, intelligent design by the user every step of the way. 

It's all in the spin...

I agree the name is not primarily an educational tool... But reading the articles and hearing some of the speeches by Will... it's clear that he'd like to maximize the educational spinoffs of his game while keeping them entertaining.  When I was a kid I loved simant....  At the same time that game was very educational as well....  Will has spent hours of research in scientific concepts, research and ideas about the universe and how life my spread...  While he will no doubt take liberties, as is every artists right... it seems he definately would like to maximize the experiential educational potential of the game.
My Spore Profile  ****  My Spore Videos
Wii Friend Code: 7772 0178 1092 3363  Mario Kart Code: 2363-6666-4480 (PM me when you add me)

Offline slugfly

  • Time Pilot Trekker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
    • View Profile
    • SporeFanatic
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2006, 08:24:00 pm »
would like to maximize the
experience
education
potential

(bold mine, and adj. changed to noun by me)

This is why games will someday become an art... and as with all art, the meaning is an interpretation more often than not.  Good job WW  :)

Offline $kelet0r

  • Microvision Master
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • www.spore-game.net
    • View Profile
    • Spore-Game.net
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2006, 02:57:10 am »
hooray intelligent debate (well for the most part)
this thread was not posted as flamebait but as a topic I find quite interesting otherwise it wouldn't exist

Spore is a vidoegame
But as a videogame it is not just a game.
Counterstrike and Doom are games but are accused as murder simulators.
GTA is a game and is pushed as explaining violent crime
MMORPGs are games and are lofted as more detrimental than cocaine
FIFA is a game and is blamed for obesity
America's Army is just a game but is also a recruitment device

The argument goes on - to look at any media as just a newspaper, just a tv show, just a computer game is ignoring the potency
Now Spore will be unique - it is a child friendly educational game
It can be misused and abused
What most people contributing here are missing is one essential point
I sincerely doubt that on its own a child would learn a damn thing from the game aside from how to play the game - they will not learn about evolution, biology, civilisation, not a goddamn thing
This game won't teach you anything on its own, just like the Sims won't help you manipulate people in real life or Simcity won't help you build a house
It is a videogame - and videogames whatever their intentions will always be for entertainment first

But what worries me the most about the responses is the 'Spore is just a game - what don't you get dur dur dur'
That's like saying a newspaper is just printed words, or a television debate is theatre or a website is just some fancy html
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
That is sompletely ignorant of reality or else the fanboys are deliberately blinding themselves of the negative externalities of their desire to play this game

When this game and similar games are used by teachers in your children's schools to say that god created the earth in 7 days and that we just appeared because it was god's will...... and follow that up by recommending Spore - your child's favourite game - as evidence of this, does that not worry you
Your influence is being subverted on a level where you cannot compete - a child's imagination
The game itself is not the problem - the content of the game is a right wing religious educator's, legislator's, representative's wet dream
When this game is misused to promote hokus science because it seems to support it - there is a very serious problem
How would you react if this game's effects include
- the ban and censorship of violent non ''educational'' videogames
- the teaching of intelligent design subvertly by recommending this game as required learning
- the rise of a theological agenda in secularly tolerant societies

You think this is all fairytale and propaganda
Do any of you know what the US senate is debating at the moment?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8729

Do you know who is being sued for $600 million right now?
http://www.gamers.com/index.php?run=news&news_id=5735

Videogaming is on trial right now like comics were in the 1950s. The comics lost the fight back then....

Offline Daxx

  • Golden Axe Battler
  • *****
  • Posts: 8613
    • View Profile
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2006, 03:50:26 am »
When this game and similar games are used by teachers in your children's schools to say that god created the earth in 7 days and that we just appeared because it was god's will...... and follow that up by recommending Spore - your child's favourite game - as evidence of this, does that not worry you
Your influence is being subverted on a level where you cannot compete - a child's imagination
The game itself is not the problem - the content of the game is a right wing religious educator's, legislator's, representative's wet dream
When this game is misused to promote hokus science because it seems to support it - there is a very serious problem
How would you react if this game's effects include
- the ban and censorship of violent non ''educational'' videogames
- the teaching of intelligent design subvertly by recommending this game as required learning
- the rise of a theological agenda in secularly tolerant societies

You think this is all fairytale and propaganda
Do any of you know what the US senate is debating at the moment?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8729

Do you know who is being sued for $600 million right now?
http://www.gamers.com/index.php?run=news&news_id=5735

Videogaming is on trial right now like comics were in the 1950s. The comics lost the fight back then....

This is the biggest load of BS I have read for ages. I'm calling you out on this one, this is just a load of conspiricy theorist crap. "the content of the game is a right wing religious educator's, legislator's, representative's wet dream"... don't make me laugh. it's just as much a left wing, liberalist hippy's as well. I simply can't believe that you seriously think that the US government, of all people, are going to use this game to push ID to the whole world, even when this game could be interpreted both ways. The scientific community could do just the same to promote evolution.
Seriously, this is pathetic.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 03:52:21 am by Daxx »

Offline $kelet0r

  • Microvision Master
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • www.spore-game.net
    • View Profile
    • Spore-Game.net
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2006, 04:08:02 am »
harsh and not fair at all
this is not conspiracy theory bull****. I don't go around promoting 911 theories or debunking the moon landing
I am making a very reasonable point - that the first time a videogame is being made that truly panders to a world ideology not just in the US exclusively. Wonderful though it may be - this game is not science or realistic in any way but that won't matter when it is being used to push fiction as fact - there is a very fine line between the two.

The scientific community can't do just the same to promote evolution - the game is not science nor does it portray anything factual or even theoritically reputable
In fact it flys in the face of everything modern science holds dear. Dismissing the power of such a potent game, of such a potentially powerful media is unbelievably naive
this is not scare-mongering - argue me wrong if I am
Your argument that it is a liberal 'wet dream' balances it out is bull**** - unless you think lall iberals think that playing computer games is a great idea
Spore can be used to push an educational agenda which feeds into a cultural and political ideology
That ideology does not include the words evolution, science or secularity...


Seriously what the hell is wrong with you Daxx?

Offline Daxx

  • Golden Axe Battler
  • *****
  • Posts: 8613
    • View Profile
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2006, 04:31:39 am »
I don't want this to turn into a flame war, but you are clearly a nutjob.

harsh and not fair at all

Completely fair, given my assessment of the idea.

this is not conspiracy theory bull****. I don't go around promoting 911 theories or debunking the moon landing
I am making a very reasonable point - that the first time a videogame is being made that truly panders to a world ideology not just in the US exclusively. Wonderful though it may be - this game is not science or realistic in any way but that won't matter when it is being used to push fiction as fact - there is a very fine line between the two.

It's not a reasonable point at all. You seem to be asserting that this game will be used to push an ideology. You also claim that a game, a game mind you, is fictional. That's something we can agree on. Fictional. There is some scientific basis to the game in its protrayal of the evolutionary process, but ultimately it is a game, and therefore fictional. Is Age of Empires historically factual? No, and I don't see you up in arms about our children being taught bad history. The game may be fictional, but it has a grounding in science. It's like Civilisation. Or would you rather suggest that that game invalidates history, anthropology and science as well?

The scientific community can't do just the same to promote evolution - the game is not science nor does it portray anything factual or even theoritically reputable
In fact it flys in the face of everything modern science holds dear.

Why not? The game has a scientific basis. To claim otherwise is absurd.

Dismissing the power of such a potent game, of such a potentially powerful media is unbelievably naive

I think you overestimate it. It's a game. You're still trying to push this as if it were actually capable of doing what you claim it can do.

Your argument that it is a liberal 'wet dream' balances it out is bull**** - unless you think lall iberals think that playing computer games is a great idea

This does not even address my argument.

this is not scare-mongering - argue me wrong if I am

Fine, have it your way. I believe you are suggesting that this one game will lead to the corruption of scientific values across the whole world. You are suggesting that a small interest group in an insignificant country will use this to collapse the teaching of science as we know it. And I quote, from your own post: "Spore can be used to push an educational agenda which feeds into a cultural and political ideology That ideology does not include the words evolution, science or secularity..." This is a conspiricy theory. There is no evidence to back this up whatsoever, and I would like you to produce it before making such claims. As such, this is scare-mongering.

Offline slugfly

  • Time Pilot Trekker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
    • View Profile
    • SporeFanatic
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2006, 04:48:38 am »
I agree with skeletor here.  Keep in mind that he's not saying that this game promotes creationism, he's saying that the appropriate spin can very easily be applied to it (wasn't that already mentioned in this thread, hit the spin right and it's yours?).  But I also have to take issue with your claim (might as well speak directly to skeletor now because with the fervor that you're being fought with I've likely lost other readers with the first sentence).  One can easily put the evolution spin on it as well, as I've been trying to do with most posts related to religion/science.  There likely will be no more to learn about science in this game than there would be in WoW but the important thing here is that it shows evolution in progress.  Most theologists will take the safe ground of saying "micro/macro" etc. etc.  but it's all evolution.  It's like saying "I believe in yellow and red, but orange is a lie."  Kids who play this game and see how one tiny change at a time can make an entire new species will have no problem accepting the fact that evolution creates new creatures, because although it was in a controlled and guided environment they will still have seen it in action.  This of course, won't turn the world-haters (afterworld-lovers) off from religion but it will force them to submit yet more ground, to lose yet more territory.  It's the spin skeletor, the spin.  Granted, the powers that be are all using the best herding tactics at their disposal and therefore will likely use a religious spin on this game.  But it's far more likely that on an individual level the game will be seen more as educational than religious, and at the very least more about 'creating' than 'creation'.

edit:  one last comment.  Applause for skeletor for being the first person I've seen (in years of obsessive game-forum participation) to display frustration at the comment "it's just a game".  Although you seem frustrated for the reason that "it's not just a game" while I am frustrated for the reason that "as long as people say 'just a game' it will only ever be 'just a game."   Would Hamlet be 'just a play'?  Games have got to break free of the connotation that 'they're just games'.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 04:51:37 am by slugfly »

Offline Daxx

  • Golden Axe Battler
  • *****
  • Posts: 8613
    • View Profile
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2006, 04:53:40 am »
I have to take issue with your claim. One can easily put the evolution spin on it as well, as I've been trying to do with most posts related to religion/science.  There likely will be no more to learn about science in this game than there would be in WoW but the important thing here is that it shows evolution in progress.

That was exactly my point. To claim that it is unscientific is absurd.

Granted, the powers that be are all using the best herding tactics at their disposal and therefore will likely use a religious spin on this game.  But it's far more likely that on an individual level the game will be seen more as educational than religious, and at the very least more about 'creating' than 'creation'.

Only in the US could people get worried about this. Even then, I don't believe it's anything to be worried about anyway - you can't control what people believe just by pointing at something and saying "Look, this can be used to support ID." Skeletor is making this out to be a huge issue, which it really isn't. There is no need to take the conspiracy theory this far.

Offline slugfly

  • Time Pilot Trekker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
    • View Profile
    • SporeFanatic
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2006, 05:13:47 am »
It's not a big issue for Spore, but it's a big issue for media in general.  And as for "only in the US" thing... let me rephrase it a little bit.  "Only the US powers would do this".  Therefore, it's not only in the US we need be concerned with it. 

Do you want the man sitting on the world's largest nuclear arsenal, the man with command of hundreds of military installations positioned worldwide (and ready to strike any target in under a few hours), the man with the world's greatest national income and greatest military budget, do you want this man taking commands from god?

Offline Daxx

  • Golden Axe Battler
  • *****
  • Posts: 8613
    • View Profile
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2006, 05:15:03 am »
As long as God doesn't tell him to nuke anyone, I'm fine with that. Stops anyone more dangerous rising to power. Better all round that the US government are ineffectual. :P

More seriously, I think you overestimate how much influence the US religious groups have on the rest of the world.

Edit: I missed something:

I sincerely doubt that on its own a child would learn a damn thing from the game aside from how to play the game - they will not learn about evolution, biology, civilisation, not a goddamn thing

Ha! Because talk on this forum doesn't revolve around biology and evolution. Because the game won't demonstrate these things in action, and isn't a simulation of these things. Not only this, but aside from learning from the game itself a child is likely to be inspired to study the subject further, maybe in school, maybe from books, maybe from the internet.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 05:29:26 am by Daxx »

Offline Lambsquirter

  • Megamania Megalomaniac
  • *****
  • Posts: 1718
  • Don't play with your food
    • View Profile
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2006, 05:37:35 am »
oh my, this is entertaining stuff..yet again..god, evolution, governments, conspiracy theories..can we make a movie out of this..lol
Under construction

Offline $kelet0r

  • Microvision Master
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • www.spore-game.net
    • View Profile
    • Spore-Game.net
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2006, 11:07:17 am »
Quote
Ha! Because talk on this forum doesn't revolve around biology and evolution. Because the game won't demonstrate these things in action, and isn't a simulation of these things. Not only this, but aside from learning from the game itself a child is likely to be inspired to study the subject further, maybe in school, maybe from books, maybe from the internet.
that only disproves your pint Daxx - the forums are completely removed from the actual game and are an area for learning or discussion
Don't make it personal Daxx - it's very poor forum etiquette
comments like 'I don't want this to turn into a flame war, but you are clearly a nutjob.' are hardly constructive - in stricter forums they would equal a ban

Offline Daxx

  • Golden Axe Battler
  • *****
  • Posts: 8613
    • View Profile
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2006, 11:11:00 am »
Wrong, it doesn't disprove my point. If fact, it supports it. It demostrates that science and scientific ideas are not only part of the game but are also naturally  ingrained in people's perceptions in the game. You have yet to successfully address any of my arguments. Or, indeed, provide any evidence for your own.

Please don't distract from the issues. Until you prove you are right, I shall continue to regard you as a conspiricist crackpot.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 11:16:59 am by Daxx »

Offline $kelet0r

  • Microvision Master
  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • www.spore-game.net
    • View Profile
    • Spore-Game.net
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2006, 11:20:57 am »
Oh but I have and I seem to have done it clearly and effectively

Your arguments can be summed up as
1. It's just a game
2. I'm scaremongering

Both of which are nonsense
1. Nothing is just one thing, a car is not just a machine, a newspaper is not just a news report - that may be there primary function but not their only purpose
2. So I'm scaremongering when I stand up to defend any potential threat to my democratic human rights and freedom of speech, association and belief?

And that's it - you haven't said anything else read this
Quote
Posted by: Daxx
Insert Quote
I don't want this to turn into a flame war, but you are clearly a nutjob.

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
harsh and not fair at all

Completely fair, given my assessment of the idea.

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
this is not conspiracy theory bull****. I don't go around promoting 911 theories or debunking the moon landing
I am making a very reasonable point - that the first time a videogame is being made that truly panders to a world ideology not just in the US exclusively. Wonderful though it may be - this game is not science or realistic in any way but that won't matter when it is being used to push fiction as fact - there is a very fine line between the two.

It's not a reasonable point at all. You seem to be asserting that this game will be used to push an ideology. You also claim that a game, a game mind you, is fictional. That's something we can agree on. Fictional. There is some scientific basis to the game in its protrayal of the evolutionary process, but ultimately it is a game, and therefore fictional. Is Age of Empires historically factual? No, and I don't see you up in arms about our children being taught bad history. The game may be fictional, but it has a grounding in science. It's like Civilisation. Or would you rather suggest that that game invalidates history, anthropology and science as well?

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
The scientific community can't do just the same to promote evolution - the game is not science nor does it portray anything factual or even theoritically reputable
In fact it flys in the face of everything modern science holds dear.

Why not? The game has a scientific basis. To claim otherwise is absurd.

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
Dismissing the power of such a potent game, of such a potentially powerful media is unbelievably naive

I think you overestimate it. It's a game. You're still trying to push this as if it were actually capable of doing what you claim it can do.

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
Your argument that it is a liberal 'wet dream' balances it out is bull**** - unless you think lall iberals think that playing computer games is a great idea

This does not even address my argument.

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
this is not scare-mongering - argue me wrong if I am

Fine, have it your way. I believe you are suggesting that this one game will lead to the corruption of scientific values across the whole world. You are suggesting that a small interest group in an insignificant country will use this to collapse the teaching of science as we know it. And I quote, from your own post: "Spore can be used to push an educational agenda which feeds into a cultural and political ideology That ideology does not include the words evolution, science or secularity..." This is a conspiricy theory. There is no evidence to back this up whatsoever, and I would like you to produce it before making such claims. As such, this is scare-mongering.

What I have posted are my CONCERNS about the FUTURE - how on earth could I pull out evidence???


Quote
I think you overestimate how much influence the US religious groups have on the rest of the world.
Quote
Only in the US could people get worried about this
Quote
You are suggesting that a small interest group in an insignificant country will use this to collapse the teaching of science as we know it.
Does the word naive mean anything to you Daxx

Offline Daxx

  • Golden Axe Battler
  • *****
  • Posts: 8613
    • View Profile
Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2006, 11:23:57 am »
Does the word Strawman mean anything to you? Try addressing my real arguments. As in, each of them in turn.

In response to your point 2, I answer: yes. Look up the definition in a dictionary.
To clarify: whilst you are claiming to "stand up to defend any potential threat to [your] democratic human rights and freedom of speech, association and belief", you are scaremongering in doing so. Don't hide behind some fancy notion that you are standing up to oppression.

Oh yes, and you have to provide evidence that it's a realistic proposition. In posting your "concerns", you are claiming various things about various groups and their intentions. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2006, 11:28:34 am by Daxx »