Author Topic: Spore as educator or agenda?  (Read 12871 times)

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Offline DarkDragon

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2006, 01:16:31 pm »
haha, there is no God but you still wrote God with the big G ;)

When will people get Spore is a VIDEOGAME, it's not like I'm gonna start believing in intelligent design after playing it xD
If things were this way everyone would go out in the streets recruiting members for some gang, buy guns and kill people after playing GTA, it's a game and its purpose is to give us fun :)
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2006, 02:12:44 pm »
You people who are trying to derail this into a religious thread are trolls. Why do you feel the need to argue about this? It's a game, for Pete's sake. Leave the topic alone.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 04:11:52 pm by Daxx »

Offline Tantalus

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2006, 03:01:52 pm »
I disagree with the idea that Spore teaches about evolution or intelligent design. I see it as far more of a development simulator, the slight nuances may not be present but if you look at the big picture you can see how a species might grow and develop.

Offline Psychic_Dude

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2006, 03:17:36 pm »
As it stands now Spore aims to be recognised as individual to its peers that involve slaughter and war and set its stall out as intelligent, complex and educational.
All well and good - it's a game concept that the industry and consumer has been crying out for.
However, I am worried. Politics does that to me some times.
Why politics you ask?
Well Evolution is the scientific explanation du jour that best describes our own development and that of natural history.
Spore aims to educate.
Problem.
Spore does not reflect anything scientific - its editors are artificial constructs where we impose our will on our creatures. We decide their destiny, their arbitrary and construed appearance as god-like creatures, omnipotent and whimsical.
This is not evolution. This is an argument for intelligent design.

Intelligent Design is one of those little things that makes the rest of the world giggle about hometown, smallville, middle America - something that is as flimsy a theory in theory let alone in science up there with timecube in ridiculousness. Now for the god-fearing among you this is not meant as an insult, whether something created the universe we reside in can not be proven at least for the forseeable future - but that doesnt take away from the fact that I.D. makes absolutely no sense.
Whether Will Wright has an agenda is well to my mind unproven and probably unlikely despite the Sims and Simcity having interesting cultural additions/omissions (condoms, nudity, religion etc.). What I fear more is the potential that this game may have on the education system - where conservative educators, legislators and representatives globally may hold this game up as the messiah of gaming -
1 assuading their fears of computer gaming as a negative phenomenon which most would welcome
but
2 using the game mechanics as a vehicle for their own agendas and belief propogation.
It has been well-documented how the law, literature and media has been altered, adjusted and in some cases created to propel a right wing theology driven agenda in the US in the past decade. I fear that this video game will soon be another tool in that arsenal, only now Spore has the power to achieve more than a thousand books or films or teachers.
Such power is quite frightening, has Will Wright created a potential monster....?

Discuss

Spore doesnt teach Intelligent Design anymore than GTA teaches how to be a cop shooter.
Yes Will has a agenda, but its to provide innovative and fun games to the world, not teach X ideology. Spore just like GTA is a game.

Offline Tarrasque

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2006, 04:04:41 pm »
If anything, it introduces people to the concept of evolution. Will said that a lot of the behaviour and the way the creatures (see the hidden agenda in that word?) move is not only procedural, but also EMERGENT. That means if you design something you don't really know how fast it is etc. That means that after you close the editor and put it into the world it can happen that the fitness is decreased, and it's survival is in question. So the fitness of the animal is not necessarily known beforehand and can be coincidental.

Like evolution.

If your changes are so bad that you will be eaten before you can reproduce, you will have to go back to the editor and change your design. If you survive, well, good, but you would then try to enhance its fitness in the next generation. That is a simulation of "good" genes being passed forward.


Additionally, the game starts billions of years in the past, when organisms were mucking around in the muck. Not exactly what creationists believe in, and I'm talking about young earth creationists here. Young earther bible literalists will find that disturbing that free will originated right there in the muck.

Spore will be an educational tool for teachers around the world I have no doubt, to teach the brats about evolution, not intelligent design. And make no mistake, creationists are everywhere, not just in Smallville, USA. Even the "Dreaded Muslim Faith" (TM) has them. Idiocy knows no religious boundaries.



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Offline Daxx

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2006, 04:11:40 pm »
If anything, it introduces people to the concept of evolution. Will said that a lot of the behaviour and the way the creatures (see the hidden agenda in that word?) move is not only procedural, but also EMERGENT. That means if you design something you don't really know how fast it is etc. That means that after you close the editor and put it into the world it can happen that the fitness is decreased, and it's survival is in question. So the fitness of the animal is not necessarily known beforehand and can be coincidental.

Like evolution.

If your changes are so bad that you will be eaten before you can reproduce, you will have to go back to the editor and change your design. If you survive, well, good, but you would then try to enhance its fitness in the next generation. That is a simulation of "good" genes being passed forward.


Additionally, the game starts billions of years in the past, when organisms were mucking around in the muck. Not exactly what creationists believe in, and I'm talking about young earth creationists here. Young earther bible literalists will find that disturbing that free will originated right there in the muck.

Spore will be an educational tool for teachers around the world I have no doubt, to teach the brats about evolution, not intelligent design. And make no mistake, creationists are everywhere, not just in Smallville, USA. Even the "Dreaded Muslim Faith" (TM) has them. Idiocy knows no religious boundaries.

Way to go, nice one. Calling your opponents idiots is a really good way to convince them that your arguments are right.

Also, from a (fairly) neutral point of view, it is nice to see an atheist around here who actually knows at least the basics about what his opponents believe. Many take to time whatsoever to even read the other side.

Simply put, you could use this either way. Yes, you can use this game to represent ID should you want. You can also use it to represent evolution.To turn this into a religious debate as to which side of the Creationism/Evolution/Intelligent Design/Re-Creationism/Solipsistic argument is represented by a game is just plain silly.

[Edit: Oops, that should have been is rather than would be...]
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 04:16:34 pm by Daxx »

Offline Tarrasque

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Here be dragons
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2006, 05:01:07 pm »
Way to go, nice one. Calling your opponents idiots is a really good way to convince them that your arguments are right.

Also, from a (fairly) neutral point of view, it is nice to see an atheist around here who actually knows at least the basics about what his opponents believe. Many take to time whatsoever to even read the other side.

Simply put, you could use this either way. Yes, you can use this game to represent ID should you want. You can also use it to represent evolution.To turn this into a religious debate as to which side of the Creationism/Evolution/Intelligent Design/Re-Creationism/Solipsistic argument is represented by a game is just plain silly.

[Edit: Oops, that should have been is rather than would be...]

Sometimes the truth has to be spoken out.  ;D And they aren't opponents. The "discussion" is over before it has even started, like discussing a smoker on the benefits of smoking. It is only still discussed because the ID people are loud enough to be heard, and ignorant enough to  not know that they have lost, not because they have any arguments. It is just a case of repeating something often enough then people will believe it's important.   

They cannot use Spore for making a point for ID, only if they stay within the confines of their own community. They cannot use it to make a point for ID in the outside world. for reasons we both have explained: First, It is just a videogame, and second, it is a videogame that obviously simulates evolution.



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Offline Daxx

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2006, 05:11:43 pm »
And to think I complemented you on understanding others.

To start (and I'm only doing this because I doubt anyone else will be bothered to correct you), They have arguments. Some are scientifically valid, some are not. Of the theories held by people who believe in evolution, some are scientifically valid, some are not. From a philosophical standpoint, both have valid and invalid arguments. Not everyone is an expert, but there are experts on both sides of the debate.

I also disagree that Spore "obviously" simulates evolution. An intelligence (the player), directing the development of the creature to its own design? Hmm...

You are going to have to accept that you cannot "claim" this game for the side of evolutionism. You are also going to have to accept that you may not be right, and dispense with this arrogance, of which I see far too much and detest vehemently. I do not argue for or against ID, but I am smart enough to realise that I am not an expert.

Needless to say, this argument does not belong here, take it to a philosophy forum. Mods, do you think this thread can be locked? It was flamebait from the day it was posted.

Online sgore

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2006, 05:14:30 pm »
It was flamebait from the day it was posted.
It was posted Today... ::)
What meme is relevant right now? Look, just imagine I'm riffing on that. Updating signatures is exhausting.

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Offline Cyrus

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2006, 05:45:18 pm »
Heck, Mods, could we just make it a rule that religious debates aren't allowed in Spore General?  Or for that matter, topics about what certain religious groups will react to the game aren't allowed in Spore General either?

They're getting old, and I think us non-trolls all agree that it's not going to be an issue when the game comes out.
Looks like even I was being optimistic with a March 07 release date...

Offline LucasUP

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Re: Here be dragons
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2006, 06:07:23 pm »
Way to go, nice one. Calling your opponents idiots is a really good way to convince them that your arguments are right.

Also, from a (fairly) neutral point of view, it is nice to see an atheist around here who actually knows at least the basics about what his opponents believe. Many take to time whatsoever to even read the other side.

Simply put, you could use this either way. Yes, you can use this game to represent ID should you want. You can also use it to represent evolution.To turn this into a religious debate as to which side of the Creationism/Evolution/Intelligent Design/Re-Creationism/Solipsistic argument is represented by a game is just plain silly.

[Edit: Oops, that should have been is rather than would be...]



I think it was worth making an account just to double-emphasize this point.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 06:13:10 pm by LucasUP »
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Offline Tarrasque

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2006, 06:32:51 pm »
You are right. It is too easy to (purposefully) ignore the natural selection process. But this does not mean natural selection is not represented in the game, as far as we know at least, it is not as obvious as I thought it was.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 06:35:37 pm by Tarrasque »
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Offline Zen

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2006, 06:54:54 pm »
 ;D  He he.   This is funny.  I can see the headlines now...  VIDEO GAME PROVES INTELLIGENT DESIGN

I don't think so. 

Particularly as it's mostly right wing religious zealots that point the stick at video games for violence and abusive behaviour.  I doubt they'll be changing their tune anytime soon.   He he.  Still makes me laugh.   :D

Offline ProfPendragon

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2006, 07:15:12 pm »
Personally, I think that some threads like this are a good thing...

Let me clarify that by saying that games like Spore-- all of the Maxis games, really-- encourage us to THINK.  I certainly hope that Spore lets people think about the whole issue of Creationism/ID/Evolution altogether.  I mean... as far as we know, the game starts with you as a paramecium, but how did THAT get there?  Will the game even cover that? 

To some people that's not important, and that's totally cool.  Spore will be fun no matter who plays it, in my opinion, but I hope that it DOES get people to think and ask reasonable, intelligent questions of their authority figures and each-other.  I would say that this thread was a GOOD thing, but there's too much angst and spite marring most of these posts. 

I would love for people to have good, logical discussions about this.  I think it would be great for people to use Spore-- along with the other classic, neglected Maxis games-- to teach and ask questions.  But perhaps it's just naievite to think that flames could be quenched long enough to try and have some intelligent discussion.... 

*snicker* I wish that's what the 'ID' meant, ne? 
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Offline slugfly

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Re: Spore as educator or agenda?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2006, 07:24:47 pm »
throwing my opinion in:

This game was not meant to be educational, but it's a natural progression of games since the progression of our society is slowly (painfully fking slowly) shifting from aggression and barbarism to intelligence and community.  The game is indeed educational but not in the way that people would assume.

It doesn't teach anything per se, but what it does do is show as a first hand account how evolution can make a new species.  How one tiny change at a time can lead to something complete unrecognizable from the original.  Once enough people see this concept as obvious then all "creationists" will be forced to follow the route of "intelligent design" just as they had to follow the route of "spherical Earth" centuries ago.  It's another small plot of land given over to knowledge and taken away from faith... this trend continues one tiny step at a time until finally faith is left with nothing but a negligable reserve occupied by only the most archaic and quaint of ideas.

3 cheers for spore!!