Topic: Spore as educator or agenda?

[$kelet0r]

As it stands now Spore aims to be recognised as individual to its peers that involve slaughter and war and set its stall out as intelligent, complex and educational.
All well and good - it's a game concept that the industry and consumer has been crying out for.
However, I am worried. Politics does that to me some times.
Why politics you ask?
Well Evolution is the scientific explanation du jour that best describes our own development and that of natural history.
Spore aims to educate.
Problem.
Spore does not reflect anything scientific - its editors are artificial constructs where we impose our will on our creatures. We decide their destiny, their arbitrary and construed appearance as god-like creatures, omnipotent and whimsical.
This is not evolution. This is an argument for intelligent design.

Intelligent Design is one of those little things that makes the rest of the world giggle about hometown, smallville, middle America - something that is as flimsy a theory in theory let alone in science up there with timecube in ridiculousness. Now for the god-fearing among you this is not meant as an insult, whether something created the universe we reside in can not be proven at least for the forseeable future - but that doesnt take away from the fact that I.D. makes absolutely no sense.
Whether Will Wright has an agenda is well to my mind unproven and probably unlikely despite the Sims and Simcity having interesting cultural additions/omissions (condoms, nudity, religion etc.). What I fear more is the potential that this game may have on the education system - where conservative educators, legislators and representatives globally may hold this game up as the messiah of gaming -
1 assuading their fears of computer gaming as a negative phenomenon which most would welcome
but
2 using the game mechanics as a vehicle for their own agendas and belief propogation.
It has been well-documented how the law, literature and media has been altered, adjusted and in some cases created to propel a right wing theology driven agenda in the US in the past decade. I fear that this video game will soon be another tool in that arsenal, only now Spore has the power to achieve more than a thousand books or films or teachers.
Such power is quite frightening, has Will Wright created a potential monster....?

Discuss

[smjjames]

here we go with the start of another evolution vs creationism argument type thread...

[Skraeling]

Spore as educator or agenda?

How about spore as a VIDEOGAME.  games have no rules mate.

[$kelet0r]

you're missing the point completely
regardless of what you think about the argument of creationism vs evolution, you would be incredibly naive to dismiss the power a game like Spore has

[smjjames]

I'm not dismissing the power that spore has, I was just bieng sarcastic about another evolution vs creationism argument type thread because we have enough of those

[aquaman]

How about spore as a PROFIT MAKER.  

But seriously, I take your point and I agree, will wright may have created a powerful monster.

[Polymer]

its...a...game...Will wrights spore will create about as much commotion as black and white.

[Cyrus]

Hey, I haven't heard this discussion before...no, wait, nevemind.

Spore isn't the first game ever to involve evolution.  No religious zealots or militant aetheists got upset one way or the other over Sim Earth, and that game was about the evolution of Earth, Earth creatures, and humans.  The fact that this game is even farther removed from real life makes it even less likely anybody's going to get upset.

EA/Maxis/Will Wright doesn't have some secret political agenda.  Like Will has said about Sim City, it does not teach you anything at all about civil engineering or managing an actual city, but it may motivate you to learn more about it on your own.  One of Will's favorite quotes is "Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire" - William Yeats. 

[Mason11987]

As it stands now Spore aims to be recognised as individual to its peers that involve slaughter and war and set its stall out as intelligent, complex and educational.
All well and good - it's a game concept that the industry and consumer has been crying out for.
However, I am worried. Politics does that to me some times.
Why politics you ask?
Well Evolution is the scientific explanation du jour that best describes our own development and that of natural history.
Spore aims to educate.
Problem.
Spore does not reflect anything scientific - its editors are artificial constructs where we impose our will on our creatures. We decide their destiny, their arbitrary and construed appearance as god-like creatures, omnipotent and whimsical.
This is not evolution. This is an argument for intelligent design.

Intelligent Design is one of those little things that makes the rest of the world giggle about hometown, smallville, middle America - something that is as flimsy a theory in theory let alone in science up there with timecube in ridiculousness. Now for the god-fearing among you this is not meant as an insult, whether something created the universe we reside in can not be proven at least for the forseeable future - but that doesnt take away from the fact that I.D. makes absolutely no sense.
Whether Will Wright has an agenda is well to my mind unproven and probably unlikely despite the Sims and Simcity having interesting cultural additions/omissions (condoms, nudity, religion etc.). What I fear more is the potential that this game may have on the education system - where conservative educators, legislators and representatives globally may hold this game up as the messiah of gaming -
1 assuading their fears of computer gaming as a negative phenomenon which most would welcome
but
2 using the game mechanics as a vehicle for their own agendas and belief propogation.
It has been well-documented how the law, literature and media has been altered, adjusted and in some cases created to propel a right wing theology driven agenda in the US in the past decade. I fear that this video game will soon be another tool in that arsenal, only now Spore has the power to achieve more than a thousand books or films or teachers.
Such power is quite frightening, has Will Wright created a potential monster....?

Discuss

Simply put, this game was created not out of education need or agenda need, nor out of scientific need.  It was created as a game that would take use of procedural content, extremly open-ended gameply, user immersibility, the ability for the user to "own" it's creation, and content pollination.  There could have been other games that did this, but "Life" was the most profound.  Evolution is a side thought, it's not what the game is about, it's not what it inteds to be about.  It will have an impact, and some people will be upset.  But thankfully either side can say it supports them, but it doesn't matter because it doesn't support either.  So noone has a right to be pissed, but people will be.  It's a nice post, but it has been said many times here before, and it's not worth the argument to be honest.

[JakeCourtney]

What the hell are you talking about?  Is this some kind of neo-nazi propaganda?

[Polymer]

Exactly and it's not as if we are playing this game in school. The only reason why people usually get angry and try to ban anything against religious beliefs is because the government is in someway involved. I don't know about you, but I doubt that will wright is secretly involved in politics.

[JakeCourtney]

There is no God anyway, why doesn't the bible say anything about dinosaurs?

[Polymer]

it mentions it once and please don't talk about god like that your going to get this conversation off topic.

[aquaman]

There is no God anyway, why doesn't the bible say anything about dinosaurs?

I agree - but I don't think that going to convert all religious people to atheists like myself.

[Cyrus]

Simply put, this game was created not out of education need or agenda need, nor out of scientific need.  It was created as a game that would take use of procedural content, extremly open-ended gameply, user immersibility, the ability for the user to "own" it's creation, and content pollination.  There could have been other games that did this, but "Life" was the most profound.  Evolution is a side thought, it's not what the game is about, it's not what it inteds to be about.  It will have an impact, and some people will be upset.  But thankfully either side can say it supports them, but it doesn't matter because it doesn't support either.  So noone has a right to be pissed, but people will be.  It's a nice post, but it has been said many times here before, and it's not worth the argument to be honest.

Agreed, Mason.  Evolution is ultimately a minority of your gameplay experience, for once you hit tribal, it's about advancement in technology.  I think the fact that people seem to think "religious zealots" *and* "militant aetheists" (quoting the forums) are going to be upset with this game might hint that *nobody* is going to get up in arms about this game.

And JakeCourtney - quit trying to derail this topic into yet another "Is there a God?" debate

[DarkDragon]

haha, there is no God but you still wrote God with the big G

When will people get Spore is a VIDEOGAME, it's not like I'm gonna start believing in intelligent design after playing it xD
If things were this way everyone would go out in the streets recruiting members for some gang, buy guns and kill people after playing GTA, it's a game and its purpose is to give us fun

[Daxx]

You people who are trying to derail this into a religious thread are trolls. Why do you feel the need to argue about this? It's a game, for Pete's sake. Leave the topic alone.

[Tantalus]

I disagree with the idea that Spore teaches about evolution or intelligent design. I see it as far more of a development simulator, the slight nuances may not be present but if you look at the big picture you can see how a species might grow and develop.

[Psychic_Dude]

As it stands now Spore aims to be recognised as individual to its peers that involve slaughter and war and set its stall out as intelligent, complex and educational.
All well and good - it's a game concept that the industry and consumer has been crying out for.
However, I am worried. Politics does that to me some times.
Why politics you ask?
Well Evolution is the scientific explanation du jour that best describes our own development and that of natural history.
Spore aims to educate.
Problem.
Spore does not reflect anything scientific - its editors are artificial constructs where we impose our will on our creatures. We decide their destiny, their arbitrary and construed appearance as god-like creatures, omnipotent and whimsical.
This is not evolution. This is an argument for intelligent design.

Intelligent Design is one of those little things that makes the rest of the world giggle about hometown, smallville, middle America - something that is as flimsy a theory in theory let alone in science up there with timecube in ridiculousness. Now for the god-fearing among you this is not meant as an insult, whether something created the universe we reside in can not be proven at least for the forseeable future - but that doesnt take away from the fact that I.D. makes absolutely no sense.
Whether Will Wright has an agenda is well to my mind unproven and probably unlikely despite the Sims and Simcity having interesting cultural additions/omissions (condoms, nudity, religion etc.). What I fear more is the potential that this game may have on the education system - where conservative educators, legislators and representatives globally may hold this game up as the messiah of gaming -
1 assuading their fears of computer gaming as a negative phenomenon which most would welcome
but
2 using the game mechanics as a vehicle for their own agendas and belief propogation.
It has been well-documented how the law, literature and media has been altered, adjusted and in some cases created to propel a right wing theology driven agenda in the US in the past decade. I fear that this video game will soon be another tool in that arsenal, only now Spore has the power to achieve more than a thousand books or films or teachers.
Such power is quite frightening, has Will Wright created a potential monster....?

Discuss

Spore doesnt teach Intelligent Design anymore than GTA teaches how to be a cop shooter.
Yes Will has a agenda, but its to provide innovative and fun games to the world, not teach X ideology. Spore just like GTA is a game.

[Tarrasque]

If anything, it introduces people to the concept of evolution. Will said that a lot of the behaviour and the way the creatures (see the hidden agenda in that word?) move is not only procedural, but also EMERGENT. That means if you design something you don't really know how fast it is etc. That means that after you close the editor and put it into the world it can happen that the fitness is decreased, and it's survival is in question. So the fitness of the animal is not necessarily known beforehand and can be coincidental.

Like evolution.

If your changes are so bad that you will be eaten before you can reproduce, you will have to go back to the editor and change your design. If you survive, well, good, but you would then try to enhance its fitness in the next generation. That is a simulation of "good" genes being passed forward.


Additionally, the game starts billions of years in the past, when organisms were mucking around in the muck. Not exactly what creationists believe in, and I'm talking about young earth creationists here. Young earther bible literalists will find that disturbing that free will originated right there in the muck.

Spore will be an educational tool for teachers around the world I have no doubt, to teach the brats about evolution, not intelligent design. And make no mistake, creationists are everywhere, not just in Smallville, USA. Even the "Dreaded Muslim Faith" (TM) has them. Idiocy knows no religious boundaries.

[Daxx]

If anything, it introduces people to the concept of evolution. Will said that a lot of the behaviour and the way the creatures (see the hidden agenda in that word?) move is not only procedural, but also EMERGENT. That means if you design something you don't really know how fast it is etc. That means that after you close the editor and put it into the world it can happen that the fitness is decreased, and it's survival is in question. So the fitness of the animal is not necessarily known beforehand and can be coincidental.

Like evolution.

If your changes are so bad that you will be eaten before you can reproduce, you will have to go back to the editor and change your design. If you survive, well, good, but you would then try to enhance its fitness in the next generation. That is a simulation of "good" genes being passed forward.


Additionally, the game starts billions of years in the past, when organisms were mucking around in the muck. Not exactly what creationists believe in, and I'm talking about young earth creationists here. Young earther bible literalists will find that disturbing that free will originated right there in the muck.

Spore will be an educational tool for teachers around the world I have no doubt, to teach the brats about evolution, not intelligent design. And make no mistake, creationists are everywhere, not just in Smallville, USA. Even the "Dreaded Muslim Faith" (TM) has them. Idiocy knows no religious boundaries.

Way to go, nice one. Calling your opponents idiots is a really good way to convince them that your arguments are right.

Also, from a (fairly) neutral point of view, it is nice to see an atheist around here who actually knows at least the basics about what his opponents believe. Many take to time whatsoever to even read the other side.

Simply put, you could use this either way. Yes, you can use this game to represent ID should you want. You can also use it to represent evolution.To turn this into a religious debate as to which side of the Creationism/Evolution/Intelligent Design/Re-Creationism/Solipsistic argument is represented by a game is just plain silly.

[Edit: Oops, that should have been is rather than would be...]

[Tarrasque]

Way to go, nice one. Calling your opponents idiots is a really good way to convince them that your arguments are right.

Also, from a (fairly) neutral point of view, it is nice to see an atheist around here who actually knows at least the basics about what his opponents believe. Many take to time whatsoever to even read the other side.

Simply put, you could use this either way. Yes, you can use this game to represent ID should you want. You can also use it to represent evolution.To turn this into a religious debate as to which side of the Creationism/Evolution/Intelligent Design/Re-Creationism/Solipsistic argument is represented by a game is just plain silly.

[Edit: Oops, that should have been is rather than would be...]

Sometimes the truth has to be spoken out.  And they aren't opponents. The "discussion" is over before it has even started, like discussing a smoker on the benefits of smoking. It is only still discussed because the ID people are loud enough to be heard, and ignorant enough to  not know that they have lost, not because they have any arguments. It is just a case of repeating something often enough then people will believe it's important.   

They cannot use Spore for making a point for ID, only if they stay within the confines of their own community. They cannot use it to make a point for ID in the outside world. for reasons we both have explained: First, It is just a videogame, and second, it is a videogame that obviously simulates evolution.

[Daxx]

And to think I complemented you on understanding others.

To start (and I'm only doing this because I doubt anyone else will be bothered to correct you), They have arguments. Some are scientifically valid, some are not. Of the theories held by people who believe in evolution, some are scientifically valid, some are not. From a philosophical standpoint, both have valid and invalid arguments. Not everyone is an expert, but there are experts on both sides of the debate.

I also disagree that Spore "obviously" simulates evolution. An intelligence (the player), directing the development of the creature to its own design? Hmm...

You are going to have to accept that you cannot "claim" this game for the side of evolutionism. You are also going to have to accept that you may not be right, and dispense with this arrogance, of which I see far too much and detest vehemently. I do not argue for or against ID, but I am smart enough to realise that I am not an expert.

Needless to say, this argument does not belong here, take it to a philosophy forum. Mods, do you think this thread can be locked? It was flamebait from the day it was posted.

[sgore]

It was flamebait from the day it was posted.

It was posted Today...

[Cyrus]

Heck, Mods, could we just make it a rule that religious debates aren't allowed in Spore General?  Or for that matter, topics about what certain religious groups will react to the game aren't allowed in Spore General either?

They're getting old, and I think us non-trolls all agree that it's not going to be an issue when the game comes out.

[LucasUP]

Way to go, nice one. Calling your opponents idiots is a really good way to convince them that your arguments are right.

Also, from a (fairly) neutral point of view, it is nice to see an atheist around here who actually knows at least the basics about what his opponents believe. Many take to time whatsoever to even read the other side.

Simply put, you could use this either way. Yes, you can use this game to represent ID should you want. You can also use it to represent evolution.To turn this into a religious debate as to which side of the Creationism/Evolution/Intelligent Design/Re-Creationism/Solipsistic argument is represented by a game is just plain silly.

[Edit: Oops, that should have been is rather than would be...]

I think it was worth making an account just to double-emphasize this point.

[Tarrasque]

You are right. It is too easy to (purposefully) ignore the natural selection process. But this does not mean natural selection is not represented in the game, as far as we know at least, it is not as obvious as I thought it was.

[Zen]

   He he.   This is funny.  I can see the headlines now...  VIDEO GAME PROVES INTELLIGENT DESIGN

I don't think so. 

Particularly as it's mostly right wing religious zealots that point the stick at video games for violence and abusive behaviour.  I doubt they'll be changing their tune anytime soon.   He he.  Still makes me laugh.   

[ProfPendragon]

Personally, I think that some threads like this are a good thing...

Let me clarify that by saying that games like Spore-- all of the Maxis games, really-- encourage us to THINK.  I certainly hope that Spore lets people think about the whole issue of Creationism/ID/Evolution altogether.  I mean... as far as we know, the game starts with you as a paramecium, but how did THAT get there?  Will the game even cover that? 

To some people that's not important, and that's totally cool.  Spore will be fun no matter who plays it, in my opinion, but I hope that it DOES get people to think and ask reasonable, intelligent questions of their authority figures and each-other.  I would say that this thread was a GOOD thing, but there's too much angst and spite marring most of these posts. 

I would love for people to have good, logical discussions about this.  I think it would be great for people to use Spore-- along with the other classic, neglected Maxis games-- to teach and ask questions.  But perhaps it's just naievite to think that flames could be quenched long enough to try and have some intelligent discussion.... 

*snicker* I wish that's what the 'ID' meant, ne? 

[slugfly]

throwing my opinion in:

This game was not meant to be educational, but it's a natural progression of games since the progression of our society is slowly (painfully fking slowly) shifting from aggression and barbarism to intelligence and community.  The game is indeed educational but not in the way that people would assume.

It doesn't teach anything per se, but what it does do is show as a first hand account how evolution can make a new species.  How one tiny change at a time can lead to something complete unrecognizable from the original.  Once enough people see this concept as obvious then all "creationists" will be forced to follow the route of "intelligent design" just as they had to follow the route of "spherical Earth" centuries ago.  It's another small plot of land given over to knowledge and taken away from faith... this trend continues one tiny step at a time until finally faith is left with nothing but a negligable reserve occupied by only the most archaic and quaint of ideas.

3 cheers for spore!! 

[Granite T. Rock]

Basically what I'm hearing is:

1.  You like evolution - Then Spore is your game.  Built on the principals of evolution you can see how your little tiny spore turns into a super intelligent being one step at a time.

2.  Don't like evolution and like God the creator?  Then.... Spore is your game.  While no one can ever know what it's like to be God..... you can try and get a sense of how God might of felt when he created life in the universe.  Starting with one creature and playing around with different ideas and make many different creatures to populate the universe with.  There's no random mutations in this game but rather, intentional, intelligent design by the user every step of the way. 

It's all in the spin...

I agree the name is not primarily an educational tool... But reading the articles and hearing some of the speeches by Will... it's clear that he'd like to maximize the educational spinoffs of his game while keeping them entertaining.  When I was a kid I loved simant....  At the same time that game was very educational as well....  Will has spent hours of research in scientific concepts, research and ideas about the universe and how life my spread...  While he will no doubt take liberties, as is every artists right... it seems he definately would like to maximize the experiential educational potential of the game.

[slugfly]

would like to maximize the
experience
education
potential

(bold mine, and adj. changed to noun by me)

This is why games will someday become an art... and as with all art, the meaning is an interpretation more often than not.  Good job WW 

[$kelet0r]

hooray intelligent debate (well for the most part)
this thread was not posted as flamebait but as a topic I find quite interesting otherwise it wouldn't exist

Spore is a vidoegame
But as a videogame it is not just a game.
Counterstrike and Doom are games but are accused as murder simulators.
GTA is a game and is pushed as explaining violent crime
MMORPGs are games and are lofted as more detrimental than cocaine
FIFA is a game and is blamed for obesity
America's Army is just a game but is also a recruitment device

The argument goes on - to look at any media as just a newspaper, just a tv show, just a computer game is ignoring the potency
Now Spore will be unique - it is a child friendly educational game
It can be misused and abused
What most people contributing here are missing is one essential point
I sincerely doubt that on its own a child would learn a damn thing from the game aside from how to play the game - they will not learn about evolution, biology, civilisation, not a goddamn thing
This game won't teach you anything on its own, just like the Sims won't help you manipulate people in real life or Simcity won't help you build a house
It is a videogame - and videogames whatever their intentions will always be for entertainment first

But what worries me the most about the responses is the 'Spore is just a game - what don't you get dur dur dur'
That's like saying a newspaper is just printed words, or a television debate is theatre or a website is just some fancy html
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
That is sompletely ignorant of reality or else the fanboys are deliberately blinding themselves of the negative externalities of their desire to play this game

When this game and similar games are used by teachers in your children's schools to say that god created the earth in 7 days and that we just appeared because it was god's will...... and follow that up by recommending Spore - your child's favourite game - as evidence of this, does that not worry you
Your influence is being subverted on a level where you cannot compete - a child's imagination
The game itself is not the problem - the content of the game is a right wing religious educator's, legislator's, representative's wet dream
When this game is misused to promote hokus science because it seems to support it - there is a very serious problem
How would you react if this game's effects include
- the ban and censorship of violent non ''educational'' videogames
- the teaching of intelligent design subvertly by recommending this game as required learning
- the rise of a theological agenda in secularly tolerant societies

You think this is all fairytale and propaganda
Do any of you know what the US senate is debating at the moment?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8729

Do you know who is being sued for $600 million right now?
http://www.gamers.com/index.php?run=news&news_id=5735

Videogaming is on trial right now like comics were in the 1950s. The comics lost the fight back then....

[Daxx]

When this game and similar games are used by teachers in your children's schools to say that god created the earth in 7 days and that we just appeared because it was god's will...... and follow that up by recommending Spore - your child's favourite game - as evidence of this, does that not worry you
Your influence is being subverted on a level where you cannot compete - a child's imagination
The game itself is not the problem - the content of the game is a right wing religious educator's, legislator's, representative's wet dream
When this game is misused to promote hokus science because it seems to support it - there is a very serious problem
How would you react if this game's effects include
- the ban and censorship of violent non ''educational'' videogames
- the teaching of intelligent design subvertly by recommending this game as required learning
- the rise of a theological agenda in secularly tolerant societies

You think this is all fairytale and propaganda
Do any of you know what the US senate is debating at the moment?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8729

Do you know who is being sued for $600 million right now?
http://www.gamers.com/index.php?run=news&news_id=5735

Videogaming is on trial right now like comics were in the 1950s. The comics lost the fight back then....

This is the biggest load of BS I have read for ages. I'm calling you out on this one, this is just a load of conspiricy theorist crap. "the content of the game is a right wing religious educator's, legislator's, representative's wet dream"... don't make me laugh. it's just as much a left wing, liberalist hippy's as well. I simply can't believe that you seriously think that the US government, of all people, are going to use this game to push ID to the whole world, even when this game could be interpreted both ways. The scientific community could do just the same to promote evolution.
Seriously, this is pathetic.

[$kelet0r]

harsh and not fair at all
this is not conspiracy theory bull****. I don't go around promoting 911 theories or debunking the moon landing
I am making a very reasonable point - that the first time a videogame is being made that truly panders to a world ideology not just in the US exclusively. Wonderful though it may be - this game is not science or realistic in any way but that won't matter when it is being used to push fiction as fact - there is a very fine line between the two.

The scientific community can't do just the same to promote evolution - the game is not science nor does it portray anything factual or even theoritically reputable
In fact it flys in the face of everything modern science holds dear. Dismissing the power of such a potent game, of such a potentially powerful media is unbelievably naive
this is not scare-mongering - argue me wrong if I am
Your argument that it is a liberal 'wet dream' balances it out is bull**** - unless you think lall iberals think that playing computer games is a great idea
Spore can be used to push an educational agenda which feeds into a cultural and political ideology
That ideology does not include the words evolution, science or secularity...


Seriously what the hell is wrong with you Daxx?

[Daxx]

I don't want this to turn into a flame war, but you are clearly a nutjob.

harsh and not fair at all

Completely fair, given my assessment of the idea.

this is not conspiracy theory bull****. I don't go around promoting 911 theories or debunking the moon landing
I am making a very reasonable point - that the first time a videogame is being made that truly panders to a world ideology not just in the US exclusively. Wonderful though it may be - this game is not science or realistic in any way but that won't matter when it is being used to push fiction as fact - there is a very fine line between the two.

It's not a reasonable point at all. You seem to be asserting that this game will be used to push an ideology. You also claim that a game, a game mind you, is fictional. That's something we can agree on. Fictional. There is some scientific basis to the game in its protrayal of the evolutionary process, but ultimately it is a game, and therefore fictional. Is Age of Empires historically factual? No, and I don't see you up in arms about our children being taught bad history. The game may be fictional, but it has a grounding in science. It's like Civilisation. Or would you rather suggest that that game invalidates history, anthropology and science as well?

The scientific community can't do just the same to promote evolution - the game is not science nor does it portray anything factual or even theoritically reputable
In fact it flys in the face of everything modern science holds dear.

Why not? The game has a scientific basis. To claim otherwise is absurd.

Dismissing the power of such a potent game, of such a potentially powerful media is unbelievably naive

I think you overestimate it. It's a game. You're still trying to push this as if it were actually capable of doing what you claim it can do.

Your argument that it is a liberal 'wet dream' balances it out is bull**** - unless you think lall iberals think that playing computer games is a great idea

This does not even address my argument.

this is not scare-mongering - argue me wrong if I am

Fine, have it your way. I believe you are suggesting that this one game will lead to the corruption of scientific values across the whole world. You are suggesting that a small interest group in an insignificant country will use this to collapse the teaching of science as we know it. And I quote, from your own post: "Spore can be used to push an educational agenda which feeds into a cultural and political ideology That ideology does not include the words evolution, science or secularity..." This is a conspiricy theory. There is no evidence to back this up whatsoever, and I would like you to produce it before making such claims. As such, this is scare-mongering.

[slugfly]

I agree with skeletor here.  Keep in mind that he's not saying that this game promotes creationism, he's saying that the appropriate spin can very easily be applied to it (wasn't that already mentioned in this thread, hit the spin right and it's yours?).  But I also have to take issue with your claim (might as well speak directly to skeletor now because with the fervor that you're being fought with I've likely lost other readers with the first sentence).  One can easily put the evolution spin on it as well, as I've been trying to do with most posts related to religion/science.  There likely will be no more to learn about science in this game than there would be in WoW but the important thing here is that it shows evolution in progress.  Most theologists will take the safe ground of saying "micro/macro" etc. etc.  but it's all evolution.  It's like saying "I believe in yellow and red, but orange is a lie."  Kids who play this game and see how one tiny change at a time can make an entire new species will have no problem accepting the fact that evolution creates new creatures, because although it was in a controlled and guided environment they will still have seen it in action.  This of course, won't turn the world-haters (afterworld-lovers) off from religion but it will force them to submit yet more ground, to lose yet more territory.  It's the spin skeletor, the spin.  Granted, the powers that be are all using the best herding tactics at their disposal and therefore will likely use a religious spin on this game.  But it's far more likely that on an individual level the game will be seen more as educational than religious, and at the very least more about 'creating' than 'creation'.

edit:  one last comment.  Applause for skeletor for being the first person I've seen (in years of obsessive game-forum participation) to display frustration at the comment "it's just a game".  Although you seem frustrated for the reason that "it's not just a game" while I am frustrated for the reason that "as long as people say 'just a game' it will only ever be 'just a game."   Would Hamlet be 'just a play'?  Games have got to break free of the connotation that 'they're just games'.

[Daxx]

I have to take issue with your claim. One can easily put the evolution spin on it as well, as I've been trying to do with most posts related to religion/science.  There likely will be no more to learn about science in this game than there would be in WoW but the important thing here is that it shows evolution in progress.

That was exactly my point. To claim that it is unscientific is absurd.

Granted, the powers that be are all using the best herding tactics at their disposal and therefore will likely use a religious spin on this game.  But it's far more likely that on an individual level the game will be seen more as educational than religious, and at the very least more about 'creating' than 'creation'.

Only in the US could people get worried about this. Even then, I don't believe it's anything to be worried about anyway - you can't control what people believe just by pointing at something and saying "Look, this can be used to support ID." Skeletor is making this out to be a huge issue, which it really isn't. There is no need to take the conspiracy theory this far.

[slugfly]

It's not a big issue for Spore, but it's a big issue for media in general.  And as for "only in the US" thing... let me rephrase it a little bit.  "Only the US powers would do this".  Therefore, it's not only in the US we need be concerned with it. 

Do you want the man sitting on the world's largest nuclear arsenal, the man with command of hundreds of military installations positioned worldwide (and ready to strike any target in under a few hours), the man with the world's greatest national income and greatest military budget, do you want this man taking commands from god?

[Daxx]

As long as God doesn't tell him to nuke anyone, I'm fine with that. Stops anyone more dangerous rising to power. Better all round that the US government are ineffectual.

More seriously, I think you overestimate how much influence the US religious groups have on the rest of the world.

Edit: I missed something:

I sincerely doubt that on its own a child would learn a damn thing from the game aside from how to play the game - they will not learn about evolution, biology, civilisation, not a goddamn thing

Ha! Because talk on this forum doesn't revolve around biology and evolution. Because the game won't demonstrate these things in action, and isn't a simulation of these things. Not only this, but aside from learning from the game itself a child is likely to be inspired to study the subject further, maybe in school, maybe from books, maybe from the internet.

[Lambsquirter]

oh my, this is entertaining stuff..yet again..god, evolution, governments, conspiracy theories..can we make a movie out of this..lol

[$kelet0r]

Ha! Because talk on this forum doesn't revolve around biology and evolution. Because the game won't demonstrate these things in action, and isn't a simulation of these things. Not only this, but aside from learning from the game itself a child is likely to be inspired to study the subject further, maybe in school, maybe from books, maybe from the internet.

that only disproves your pint Daxx - the forums are completely removed from the actual game and are an area for learning or discussion
Don't make it personal Daxx - it's very poor forum etiquette
comments like 'I don't want this to turn into a flame war, but you are clearly a nutjob.' are hardly constructive - in stricter forums they would equal a ban

[Daxx]

Wrong, it doesn't disprove my point. If fact, it supports it. It demostrates that science and scientific ideas are not only part of the game but are also naturally  ingrained in people's perceptions in the game. You have yet to successfully address any of my arguments. Or, indeed, provide any evidence for your own.

Please don't distract from the issues. Until you prove you are right, I shall continue to regard you as a conspiricist crackpot.

[$kelet0r]

Oh but I have and I seem to have done it clearly and effectively

Your arguments can be summed up as
1. It's just a game
2. I'm scaremongering

Both of which are nonsense
1. Nothing is just one thing, a car is not just a machine, a newspaper is not just a news report - that may be there primary function but not their only purpose
2. So I'm scaremongering when I stand up to defend any potential threat to my democratic human rights and freedom of speech, association and belief?

And that's it - you haven't said anything else read this

Posted by: Daxx
Insert Quote
I don't want this to turn into a flame war, but you are clearly a nutjob.

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
harsh and not fair at all

Completely fair, given my assessment of the idea.

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
this is not conspiracy theory bull****. I don't go around promoting 911 theories or debunking the moon landing
I am making a very reasonable point - that the first time a videogame is being made that truly panders to a world ideology not just in the US exclusively. Wonderful though it may be - this game is not science or realistic in any way but that won't matter when it is being used to push fiction as fact - there is a very fine line between the two.

It's not a reasonable point at all. You seem to be asserting that this game will be used to push an ideology. You also claim that a game, a game mind you, is fictional. That's something we can agree on. Fictional. There is some scientific basis to the game in its protrayal of the evolutionary process, but ultimately it is a game, and therefore fictional. Is Age of Empires historically factual? No, and I don't see you up in arms about our children being taught bad history. The game may be fictional, but it has a grounding in science. It's like Civilisation. Or would you rather suggest that that game invalidates history, anthropology and science as well?

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
The scientific community can't do just the same to promote evolution - the game is not science nor does it portray anything factual or even theoritically reputable
In fact it flys in the face of everything modern science holds dear.

Why not? The game has a scientific basis. To claim otherwise is absurd.

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
Dismissing the power of such a potent game, of such a potentially powerful media is unbelievably naive

I think you overestimate it. It's a game. You're still trying to push this as if it were actually capable of doing what you claim it can do.

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
Your argument that it is a liberal 'wet dream' balances it out is bull**** - unless you think lall iberals think that playing computer games is a great idea

This does not even address my argument.

Quote from: $kelet0r on Today at 04:08:02 AM
this is not scare-mongering - argue me wrong if I am

Fine, have it your way. I believe you are suggesting that this one game will lead to the corruption of scientific values across the whole world. You are suggesting that a small interest group in an insignificant country will use this to collapse the teaching of science as we know it. And I quote, from your own post: "Spore can be used to push an educational agenda which feeds into a cultural and political ideology That ideology does not include the words evolution, science or secularity..." This is a conspiricy theory. There is no evidence to back this up whatsoever, and I would like you to produce it before making such claims. As such, this is scare-mongering.

What I have posted are my CONCERNS about the FUTURE - how on earth could I pull out evidence???

I think you overestimate how much influence the US religious groups have on the rest of the world.

Only in the US could people get worried about this

You are suggesting that a small interest group in an insignificant country will use this to collapse the teaching of science as we know it.

Does the word naive mean anything to you Daxx

[Daxx]

Does the word Strawman mean anything to you? Try addressing my real arguments. As in, each of them in turn.

In response to your point 2, I answer: yes. Look up the definition in a dictionary.
To clarify: whilst you are claiming to "stand up to defend any potential threat to [your] democratic human rights and freedom of speech, association and belief", you are scaremongering in doing so. Don't hide behind some fancy notion that you are standing up to oppression.

Oh yes, and you have to provide evidence that it's a realistic proposition. In posting your "concerns", you are claiming various things about various groups and their intentions. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[$kelet0r]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Prove to me the existance of gravity

Does the word Strawman mean anything to you?

actually i don't but it sounds like an insult which you've used to really set the tone in this discussion - nice work#

Try addressing my real arguments. As in, each of them in turn.

You mean like this?
Your arguments can be summed up as
1. It's just a game
2. I'm scaremongering

Both of which are nonsense
1. Nothing is just one thing, a car is not just a machine, a newspaper is not just a news report - that may be there primary function but not their only purpose
2. So I'm scaremongering when I stand up to defend any potential threat to my democratic human rights and freedom of speech, association and belief?

Oh yes, and you have to provide evidence that it's a realistic proposition.

You mean like this?
Do any of you know what the US senate is debating at the moment?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8729

Do you know who is being sued for $600 million right now?
http://www.gamers.com/index.php?run=news&news_id=5735

Videogaming is on trial right now like comics were in the 1950s. The comics lost the fight back then....

All of which I have already posted - respond to my arguments properly and I'll treat you like an equal - so far you've
1. insulted me
2. dismissed my arguments arrogantly
3. avoided the point by being ignorant of international politics
again nice work - you turned this thread into flamebait but I refuse to rise to it - debate my points reasonably like a man and I'll agree to disagree, otherwise walk away

[Daxx]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Prove to me the existance of gravity

Oh dear lord, you mean you don't understand this concept? Look here for a good summary.

Does the word Strawman mean anything to you?

actually i don't but it sounds like an insult which you've used to really set the tone in this discussion - nice work#

Don't cry for sympathy, it won't help you win your argument. A straw man logical fallacy is (from wikipedia): " a rhetorical technique (also classified as a logical fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position; deriving from the use of straw men in combat training." Article

A good example can be found here:

Try addressing my real arguments. As in, each of them in turn.

You mean like this?
Your arguments can be summed up as
1. It's just a game
2. I'm scaremongering
Both of which are nonsense

Oh yes, and you have to provide evidence that it's a realistic proposition.

You mean like this?
Do any of you know what the US senate is debating at the moment?
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8729

Do you know who is being sued for $600 million right now?
http://www.gamers.com/index.php?run=news&news_id=5735

That is not evidence that what you suggest is true.

ll of which I have already posted - respond to my arguments properly and I'll treat you like an equal - so far you've
1. insulted me
2. dismissed my arguments arrogantly
3. avoided the point by being ignorant of international politics
again nice work - you turned this thread into flamebait but I refuse to rise to it - debate my points reasonably like a man and I'll agree to disagree, otherwise walk away

1. Your point is? This doesn't detract from my argument. I see an conspiricy theorist run wild, I point out a conspiricy theorist run wild.
2. I have still dismissed your arguments. Successfully, too.
3. I am not ignorant of international politics, and to accuse me of being so is utterly ludicrous. It is obvious from your position that you do not understand politics yourself. The US is not a concern, and to say so is not naive, it is the truth. The Far East and Middle East have more bearing on international politics than anything the US does any more. From an economic perspective, the US is no longer the greatest power in the world.
You posted flamebait, you deal with it. I didn't do anything other than correct you.

[LadyM]

Keep this thread on topic and keep it civil please. You can debate this topic without name calling and anger. Please be respectful of each other.

[Daxx]

I would rather these sorts of threads (Evolution and Intelligent Design) were just banned in the first place. They're blatent flamebait. It was just asking for trouble as soon as it was posted.

[professor]

Wow.  All this over a video game.  My, my. 

[ProfPendragon]

*sigh* So my post reccomending calm discussion earlier in this thread may have fallen on deaf ears?  I guess they're not obligated to listen to the new guy. ^^;

Still, it is interesting to see passionate individuals on both sides debate this... I just wish it could be done with reason, with an aim toward finding a common answer.  Sadly it looks like it's breaking down into a competition to see who is 'right'. 

I think we've all come to the conclusion that spin will be a big part of this debate, should it ever become public.  And discounting anything like illuminati or 'right-wing conspiracies', the government really can't poke at this game at all, insofar as censoring it.  There's nothing vulgar in it (unless you design your creatures to look like giant penises or something; also discounting that 'procedural mating'), it doesn't advocate any particular lifestyle, making it just as easy to interface with aliens peacefully as it does blowing them out of the stars. 

The hand of the player could just as easily be seen as the invisible hand of God, or just the player personified as the creature itself.  When you're playing the paramecium, you're doing it because YOU don't want to be eaten, not because your shepherding something towards a greater existance-- at least, not YET. 

So the short answer as *I* see it is: interpretation.  Spore is whatever you want it to be, and that's exactly how I think it should be.  I think it should make people question the world around them, if nothing else so they can ask intelligent questions and come to their own informed conclusions.  If nothing else, it gets people to talk about the difficult questions. 

NOW all Maxis has to do is create an add-on that helps them to discuss it with a little less passion for 'right and wrong', and a little more passion for truth. 

[Tantalus]

I would rather these sorts of threads (Evolution and Intelligent Design) were just banned in the first place. They're blatent flamebait. It was just asking for trouble as soon as it was posted.

Yeah I'll second that.

[Fade2gray]

I would rather these sorts of threads (Evolution and Intelligent Design) were just banned in the first place. They're blatent flamebait. It was just asking for trouble as soon as it was posted.

Yeah I'll second that.

Third!

[Hydromancerx]

What about organ threads? Do they get banned too?

[LadyM]

You know what is weird? I actually wrote a post for this thread and thought I posted it.  Weird...

People need a place to talk about their ideas or pose questions. There have been many topics that I thought would end up in a flame war but didn't. Most of our members are able to discuss in a civil manner. I don't think these topics need to be banned. If they annoy you, the best thing to do is move on and don't post. Let the people who want to discuss these things debate it out.  There is no right or wrong answer, only opinions. 

*new guy seems to have some sound advice*

[Fade2gray]

There is no right or wrong answer, only opinions. 

The problem is that threads like the one we're posting in now begin when someone dismises someone else's views out of hand as ignorant and/or absurd and heated shouting matches ensue were nothing is accomplished and everyone comes off sounding like self righteous *fill in the acronym*'s. The few temperate and intellectual arguments that are made are quickly lost amid the def talking pieces or assimilated into someone else's rant. These flame wars are rarely the honest discussions many like to pretend they are or should be.

[starshard0]

What I don't understand is why people blame recent technological breakthroughs for causing anything at all. For example, murders, war, violence in general, have been going on for thousands of years. To think that video games are the cause of all this is simply ludicrous. The first real video game was'nt invented until quite recently, and pinball machines (which were banned by the mayor of New York for promoting laziness when they were introduced) have been around a bit longer.

To think that Spore has an agenda is just as silly. Look at Darwin himself, he never played a video game in his life, and he came up with his theories all by himself. Amazing, isn't it? If people have something wrong with Spore (or video games in general), why not just ban television, radio, books, talking about controversial ideas, etc. It's just plain ignorant to assume that video games are the root of all evil. And as far as this stupid lawsuit about GTA goes, I think the only people who need to be held accountable are the stores that sold these games to the minors.

[dvalladt]

$kelet0r, read "Mediated" by Zengotita (nice name for an Spore species, by the way) if you haven't yet, I'm sure his take on post-modernist forms of representation (say, videogames) and its "continuity"/"amplification" of the modernist agenda will answer some, if not a lot, of your questions. Not to say that Spore is, say, deliberately designed to forward an agenda, but it does abstract a world view, it can be seen as part or larger trends, etc, so I think it's fair that you want to discuss it in those terms if you want to -I'm not very interested, I'd feel a little out of my deep, but I'm surprised at the opposition you're getting!

[Daxx]

People need a place to talk about their ideas or pose questions. There have been many topics that I thought would end up in a flame war but didn't. Most of our members are able to discuss in a civil manner. I don't think these topics need to be banned. If they annoy you, the best thing to do is move on and don't post. Let the people who want to discuss these things debate it out.  There is no right or wrong answer, only opinions. 

Well, I guess if that's what you think then it's fair enough. Having slept on it, I can see that getting angry about it doesn't make a difference. With some people, there is very little hope of convincing them; no amount of argument no matter how logical or complete will prove your point to them.

Rather than banning them, maybe we just shouldn't respond to them. I dunno, post a "Do Not Feed The Trolls" message, but otherwise say nothing. I'm not going to respond here any more, or to any other threads on the same theme, unless I feel that there is logical discussion. I hope others will do the same. Ignoring trolls is the best way of dealing with them, in my experience. And, let's face it, the only people who want to blindly post very controversial stuff to a forum with a note saying "discuss" are trolls.

As LAdyM says:

If they annoy you, the best thing to do is move on and don't post.

[slugfly]

These sorts of threads are the reason I visit Gamingsteve on an hourly basis while not at work.  I'm so hyped, so thrilled, so tickled into rosy pinkness in my cheeks and certain unmentionable areas that a gaming forum has such intelligent discussion.

I have seen here civil discussions of often argued ideas including evolution, the future of humanity, intelligent design.  That covers the bulk of them but there's also been physics discussions (astro-physics), brief history discussions and others.  I'm thrilled at the fact that I can read a post and know that I'm out of my depth...  you must all know (and those who don't will know eventually) that the greatest swimmers love the deepest and darkest waters.  I like that fact that I often don't understand some of the ideas that are put forward here (particularly when related to physics).  It shows that there's something for me to gain beyond stimulus...  it shows that I'm not just killing time here, waiting to die like so many tv-babies watching their stories in between the prime-time commercials.

This is (maybe) the first topic I've seen related to hot-media and propoganda...   but since it's a topic that is very real, a topic that goes over and above the creation/ID vs. evolution debate, a topic that suggests either directly or indirectly that our very thoughts are being controlled by outside forces, it's a sensitive topic.

Threads like this are great food to the gaming industry, we are not just children being babysat by a tv anymore.  We are thinking adults who unfortunately crave stimulation but also crave art, thought, new ideas, new experiences.  Games have to deliver more than just stimulation and diversion to be great games, to be art.  Threads like this are showing to whoever might be browsing as a part of the industry that we need more than simply diversion.  And it's a way for us to get more than mere diversion out of a game.

It's a shame that Skeletors initial idea was attacked so swiftly...  I suspect that it's no longer the ideas that are being argued though... I suspect that it's the arguements that are being argued.  If I accuse you of stealing something from me, you'll deny it.  Then if I swing my fists you'll swing back.  We're not longer fighting over the theft, we're fighting to be the winner...

[Hydromancerx]

Man i wish this topic was an April Fools joke.