Author Topic: Gasping for Air  (Read 12193 times)

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Offline BioCat

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Gasping for Air
« on: March 27, 2006, 09:18:39 am »
We all saw in the last year's gdc video how will used his UFO and took one of those spider creatures and then put it down in a planet without atmosphere and well... it exploded.

I understand and guess there will be no carbone based creature but do you think all creatures will breath the same gases?

I see no reason why they should, even here in earth not all creature uses oxygen.

What do you think?



Offline Cyrus

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2006, 09:26:20 am »
Atmosphere will play a part in the terraforming parts of the game, where you have to build an atmosphere and biosphere to make the planet habitable, but we don't believe there will be different kinds of atmospheres.  Just like any other simulation game, many things have been abstracted and simplified to keep the game fun and prevent it from becoming overly-complex.  So, our guess is that all creatures in the game can breathe the same type of atmosphere.
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Offline mrodgers

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2006, 10:09:16 am »
Atmosphere will play a part in the terraforming parts of the game, where you have to build an atmosphere and biosphere to make the planet habitable, but we don't believe there will be different kinds of atmospheres.  Just like any other simulation game, many things have been abstracted and simplified to keep the game fun and prevent it from becoming overly-complex.  So, our guess is that all creatures in the game can breathe the same type of atmosphere.

with the exception of water vs. air breathers of course
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Offline Cyrus

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2006, 10:20:09 am »
with the exception of water vs. air breathers of course

Right, but "atmosphere" is defined as being a mass of gas, which water is not.  But I know what you mean.  All land-based creatures breathe the same type of atmosphere, and all water-based creatures breathe the same type of water most likely.
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Offline Willeisen

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2006, 05:41:50 pm »
You know...I wouldn't be suprised if there was an atmosphere gauge like in Sim Earth.
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Offline VargrimGraff

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2006, 05:50:52 pm »
I would hope that it would include something like this.

Offline ElemenoP

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2006, 06:56:20 pm »
TECHNICALLY in the video volcanoes give plantes atmosphere, but that atmosphere could be radically different than its home atmosphere, for example, the volacanic toxins might just make that creature melt for all we know
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Offline Tarrasque

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2006, 07:45:48 am »
We don't know about different gases, we know that SF is awash with methane breathers etc.

We know that there are different degrees of planet quality. A given planet could be level 8 for one race, but only level 4 for another. Whether this is just based on the amount of water present we don't know (Water creature <-> Land creature). In his presentation, Will was tallking about a hot dry planet he was visiting with his UFO (only in-game, of course ...  ;D ).


It was an airless planet. You first need to create an atmosphere, then do something to break that atmoshere into something breathable. Like when you introduce CO2 by creating volcanoies, wait for the greenhouse effect to kick in and then put up some plants to create oxygen. My problem with this is that you should not be able to remake the garden of eden in the outer solar system. There is not enough solar energy to do that there. You may get a breathable atmosphere there with the help of super science, but it would still have -153 degrees. Not very useful. Your colonies would still be confined under bubbles.

What I would like to see is that the really livable planets are all more or less in the life zone of the star and that there are few which you can settle from the beginning.

And btw, if you jump out of the pod bay into the void, you don't explode. You suffocate. You actually survive being in vacuum, as long as your breath holds. The cold gets you later. All that would rupture are a few blood vessels in your eyes and nose. So not only  Data is able to change ships without a space suit.  ;) 
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Offline Tantalus

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2006, 07:59:33 am »
lol, how long would it take for you to freeze? Either way you would likely be in excruciating pain  :P

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2006, 08:10:04 am »
As far as different gas breathers, go, I think that most life-forms survive in the gas they are accustomed to, such as most Earth creatures and oxygen. Creatures that live underwater also breate oxygen, but they use their gills to filter out the water and keep the air.

From what I can tell the reason the creature exploded was because the vaccum of space sucked the air right out of the creature, thus causing it to implode on itself, like when you suck on a plastic soda bottle, which would cause body parts to go everwhere. Besides, it looked cool.

Temperature can easily be regulated by the density of the atmosphere, look at Venus, for example.
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Offline Nicod3mus

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2006, 09:10:04 am »
I understand what cyrus is saying with the sipmlified for practicality but I for one would be let down if there were not at least a few basic different types of atmospheres.

Offline mrodgers

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2006, 09:17:21 am »
I'd swear I remember hearing about planet habitability scores.  You could always imagine that the atmosphere is included in that measurement (and maybe it would be somehow).
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2006, 09:25:06 am »
I'd swear I remember hearing about planet habitability scores.  You could always imagine that the atmosphere is included in that measurement (and maybe it would be somehow).
I think the atmosphere is definitely going to be inculded on the score.
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Offline Hydromancerx

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2006, 04:42:42 pm »
*GASP*

Offline DarkLordofChaosX

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2006, 05:00:38 pm »
well, the reason that the creature exploded is due to differences in internal vs. external pressure. For example, all human beings are used to living with a pressure of 1 atm at all times; that is our bodies push outward constantly with a pressure of 1 atm to balance the pressure of the atmosphere on us- effectively there is no net pressure. But once we go out into space, there is no 1 atm pushing in on us, so our 1 atm of pressure pushing outward basically turns us to cosmic spaghetti.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2006, 05:03:27 pm »
well, the reason that the creature exploded is due to differences in internal vs. external pressure. For example, all human beings are used to living with a pressure of 1 atm at all times; that is our bodies push outward constantly with a pressure of 1 atm to balance the pressure of the atmosphere on us- effectively there is no net pressure. But once we go out into space, there is no 1 atm pushing in on us, so our 1 atm of pressure pushing outward basically turns us to cosmic spaghetti.
Yeah, what he said.
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Offline mrodgers

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2006, 05:08:03 am »
well, the reason that the creature exploded is due to differences in internal vs. external pressure. For example, all human beings are used to living with a pressure of 1 atm at all times; that is our bodies push outward constantly with a pressure of 1 atm to balance the pressure of the atmosphere on us- effectively there is no net pressure. But once we go out into space, there is no 1 atm pushing in on us, so our 1 atm of pressure pushing outward basically turns us to cosmic spaghetti.

Sorry thats not the case.  If it was then when a person went to a high place like say Everest, they would expand or similarly, on Skylab (an old space station), the pressure was kept very low to help prevent issues with leaks and punctures.  In neither case does a person expand.  A person can survive for a time in space (though with some injuries).  There were actually tests done by NASA early on in its program to test that fact. 

I think that in SPORE the creature exploded because it was a great way to show the planet wasn't habitable.  And besides it was funny and looked good.  Make up any explanation you want to fit it.  I will just settle for sweet revenge against those other tribes who try to attack me. <cue evil laugh>
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2006, 05:14:44 am »
as to why the creature exploded, total vaccuum is a good enough lay-reason for me.

as to different types of atmospheres.

Of course we know there will be oxygen atmosphere (dominant not pure)
if there are different types it's a good guess there will be carbon monoxide atomsphere (hence making a need to introduce plants before introducing life) and probably there will be a methane atmosphere.  As to whether or not creatures can be designed to live in these other two atmospheres...  who knows...

Offline BioCat

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2006, 05:30:47 am »
I guess you guys make sense but I also can see a possibly that there will be diffrent kinds of atmosphere.

I mean, how hard is it to create such feature? with a little luck I think we will see at list a minor atmosphere factor.

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2006, 10:15:17 am »
actually in a vacuum, you explode because air pressure is required to hold you together, it sounds stupid but its true, trust me on this one.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2006, 12:47:23 pm »
well, the reason that the creature exploded is due to differences in internal vs. external pressure. For example, all human beings are used to living with a pressure of 1 atm at all times; that is our bodies push outward constantly with a pressure of 1 atm to balance the pressure of the atmosphere on us- effectively there is no net pressure. But once we go out into space, there is no 1 atm pushing in on us, so our 1 atm of pressure pushing outward basically turns us to cosmic spaghetti.

Sorry thats not the case.  If it was then when a person went to a high place like say Everest, they would expand or similarly, on Skylab (an old space station), the pressure was kept very low to help prevent issues with leaks and punctures.  In neither case does a person expand.  A person can survive for a time in space (though with some injuries).  There were actually tests done by NASA early on in its program to test that fact. 

I think that in SPORE the creature exploded because it was a great way to show the planet wasn't habitable.  And besides it was funny and looked good.  Make up any explanation you want to fit it.  I will just settle for sweet revenge against those other tribes who try to attack me. <cue evil laugh>
People DO expand on Everest. If I was to say, take a bag of potato chips from sea level to the top of mount everest, the bag would be much more inflated then when I had started. Same goes with humans, that's why they have to camp out around the lower parts of the mountain for a few weeks (to get acclimated) before they start climbing. When astronauts go into space, they have to go through rigorous training to get their body acclimated as well. Acclimated is the key word here I think. Since the creature immediately went from a spaceship of maybe 1 atm to a place with 0, it reacted very badly.
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Offline Tarrasque

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2006, 01:10:20 pm »
actually in a vacuum, you explode because air pressure is required to hold you together, it sounds stupid but its true, trust me on this one.

No we don't trust you on this one.  ;)  Our bodies do not "push outwardly" under atmospheric pressure. If that would be the case, we would implode under the sea. People can dive 200 meters down and more, did you know that? This is 20 times atmospheric pressure, where does all the awsome force some from that pushes it all out against the water? And fish would explode if brought to the surface. They don't. Even deep sea creatures accustomed to pressures of hundreds of atmospheres do not explode. Only the pressure bubble they use to maintain depth ruptures. Their bodies look the same. The material of their, and our, bodies is firm enough to not be affected.

Quote
People DO expand on Everest. If I was to say, take a bag of potato chips from sea level to the top of mount everest, the bag would be much more inflated then when I had started. Same goes with humans, that's why they have to camp out around the lower parts of the mountain for a few weeks (to get acclimated) before they start climbing. When astronauts go into space, they have to go through rigorous training to get their body acclimated as well. Acclimated is the key word here I think. Since the creature immediately went from a spaceship of maybe 1 atm to a place with 0, it reacted very badly.

People have to acclimatize not because they would expand, but because you don't have enough oxygen up there. What follows is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude_sickness. Being exposed to a complete vacuum leads just to the ultimate form of altitude sickness: You suffocate. Altitude sickness can be completely avoided by breathing oxygen out of flasks.

Explosive decompression, ie, a sudden loss of pressure, is the most dangerous. Your lungs can be seriously injured. This is also one of the effects of the Fuel-Air-Explosive (FAE), also callled "thermobaric" or "vacuum" bomb. It is banned by several UN conventions (Hague, Geneva, Nuremberg, Human Rights) as a particulary cruel weapon. Besides the explosion and shockwave, it is so powerful that it creates a vacuum in a wide area, sucking out the air in people's lungs, and injuring them severlely, and as soime horror stories suggest, even the lungs themselves can be sucked out.

It is so powerful that there are reservations to use it in a conventional war because it can be interpreted as a nuclear attack! Despite the bans, it is and was widely used by Russia and the US ("daisy-cutter"), and not only to create helicopter landing zones in the jungle.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 01:20:59 pm by Tarrasque »
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2006, 01:14:12 pm »
Well that explains it then. Still, I wonder why Will had the creature explod on the planet. It looked cool I guess, but still there wasn't much of a scientific basis for it.
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Offline Tonjevic

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2006, 01:20:24 pm »
actually in a vacuum, you explode because air pressure is required to hold you together, it sounds stupid but its true, trust me on this one.

No we don't trust you on this one.  ;)  Our bodies do not "push outwardly" under atmospheric pressure. If that would be the case, we would implode under the sea. People can dive 200 meters down and more, did you know that? This is 20 times atmospheric pressure, where does all the awsome force some from that pushes it all out against the water? And fish would explode if brought to the surface. They don't. Even deep sea creatures accustomed to pressures of hundreds of atmospheres do not explode. Only the pressure bubble they use to maintain depth ruptures. Their bodies look the same. The material of their, and our, bodies is firm enough to not be affected.

Quote
People DO expand on Everest. If I was to say, take a bag of potato chips from sea level to the top of mount everest, the bag would be much more inflated then when I had started. Same goes with humans, that's why they have to camp out around the lower parts of the mountain for a few weeks (to get acclimated) before they start climbing. When astronauts go into space, they have to go through rigorous training to get their body acclimated as well. Acclimated is the

People have to acclimatize not because they would expand, but because you don't have enough oxygen up there. What follows is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude_sickness. Being exposed to a complete vacuum leads just to the ultimate form of altitude sickness: You suffocate. Altitude sickness can be completely avoided by breathing oxygen out of flasks.

Explosive decompression, ie, a sudden loss of pressure, is the most dangerous. Your lungs can be seriously injured. This is also one of the effects of the Fuel-Air-Explosive (FAE), also callled "thermobaric" or "vacuum" bomb. It is banned by several UN conventions (Hague, Geneva, Nuremberg, Human Rights) as a particulary cruel weapon. Besides the explosion and shockwave, it is so powerful that it creates a vacuum in a wide area, sucking out the air in people's lungs, and injuring them severlely, and as soime horror stories suggest, even the lungs themselves can be sucked out.

It is so powerful that there are reservations to use it in a conventional war because it can be interpreted as a nuclear attack! Despite the bans, it is and was widely used by Russia and the US ("daisy-cutter"), and not only to create helicopter landing zones in the jungle.

Fankly, you, sir, are an idiot.
Read up on it. It is perfectly true.
As an example, why do people have to acclimatise and de-pressurise before coming up from deep-ocean dives?
Because they have to let thier bodies, and the nitrogen bubbles in thier bloodstream decompress slowly and unviolently (Not doing so results in an extremely painful phenomenon known as the bends.).
This can be seen, and is illustrated extremely well in certain species of deep sea fish, and remnants of ship-wrecks that explode upon being brought to the surface fo the water.
The same principle applies to going into a vacuum. It is all about pressure. Before you spout garbage, and make a fool of yourself, make sure your arguments are credible.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 01:23:05 pm by Tonjevic »

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2006, 01:27:46 pm »
Oh... so, who's right?
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Offline Tarrasque

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2006, 01:48:21 pm »

Fankly, you, sir, are an idiot.
Read up on it. It is perfectly true.
As an example, why do people have to acclimatise and de-pressurise before coming up from deep-ocean dives?
Because they have to let thier bodies, and the nitrogen bubbles in thier bloodstream decompress slowly and unviolently (Not doing so results in an extremely painful phenomenon known as the bends.).
This can be seen, and is illustrated extremely well in certain species of deep sea fish, and remnants of ship-wrecks that explode upon being brought to the surface fo the water.
The same principle applies to going into a vacuum. It is all about pressure. Before you spout garbage, and make a fool of yourself, make sure your arguments are credible.

Uh oh. Where to begin?

1. The question is whether people explode in vacuum. My analogy was that we don't implode when going deep and that fish don't explode when coming up. I am very much aware of the bends, but the bends does not mean that divers "explode into deep sea spaghetti", nor do they expand. Rather, nitrogen bubbles form in the victim's bloodstream, with painful consequences. Note that these are still tiny bubbles of gas in your bloodstream, not explosion. This could also well happen in a vacuum, but you suffocate before decompression sickness kills you.

2. If fish explosions are illustrated extremely well, then by all means do it. If there are species that "explode" because of unique anatomy, which are they? And why do they explode?

3. "Remnants of shipwrecks". I hope you mean the people who went down with the ship, or organisms that settled there.

4. "It's all about pressure". Dude, I have studied physics at university. Don't tell me about pressure. I have also worked in the space industry, met and talked to the actual doctors who do the pre flight examinations on the astronauts of the European Space Agency. I don't know what your issues are, but read others and my posts in the future.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 01:55:32 pm by Tarrasque »
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Offline Skraeling

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2006, 01:59:00 pm »
Tarra wins the thread, and as far as I know is correct too.

also would you freeze to death before suffocating?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 02:29:09 pm by Skraeling »

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Offline Tantalus

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2006, 02:03:59 pm »
Tarra wins the thread.

also would you freeze to death before suffocating?

Lol yeah I'll second that. Grade A burn right there.

Offline kmr

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2006, 04:10:27 pm »
Actual scientific facts in an internet argument?

OH SNAP. D:
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2006, 04:19:33 pm »
Yeah they seem to have used thermobaric bombs in afganistan, and by they I mean the US.

Supposedly terrorists are supposed to be working on their own versions of the bomb too.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 04:22:20 pm by Tantalus »

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2006, 04:23:08 pm »
They used them in Iraq during Desert Storm. Even warned everyone first, dropping little fliers on the iraqi army, telling them what they were going to do, and when they were going to do it. Saddam and his generals didn't beleive it, so they kept their armies out on that field of battle. US dropped the bomb, and it wasnt' pretty. The next time the US decided to use an FAE bomb, they did the same thing, dropping warning fliers, the troops were so eager to leave, some shot their own officers.



Offline Tantalus

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2006, 06:28:52 pm »
lol, though I suppose having your lungs sucked out isn't exactly the funnest way to go.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2006, 07:13:31 pm »
also would you freeze to death before suffocating?

Temperature in space is a complicated thing. There is the "cold of space" alright, but as a matter of fact vacuum itself does not have a temperature. When you float through the vacuum, then there are no molecules around you that can take the energy away from your body like cold air in the arctic, or even worse, cold water. Water is a much better temperature conductor than air. Metal is also very good, that is why metal at room temperature "feels cold to the touch". This is caused by the elctron gas, ie the freely moving electrons which also responsible for electric conductivity. Air is actually pretty good at isolating. Vacuum is the best isolator known to man. Temperature loss is only caused by what you radiate away, and that is relatively little, at least compared to our everyday experience.

In short, you don't shockfreeze solid in space. It takes a while before you have radiated away the body heat. I don't know exactly how long. As long as you live, you also create heat. It also depends on solar radiation. It can heat you up tremendously. Look at the moon, on its day side you have temperatures in excess of 100°C, on the night side it goes down to -150°C and below. Thant means that your face is roasting and the back of your head gets awful cold!  ;D

But that doesn't matter anyway, since due complete air deprivation, you die very quickly.


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« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 07:22:06 pm by Tarrasque »
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Offline Tantalus

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2006, 07:45:47 pm »
Hmm nice to know. I knew that we would only lose heat by radiating it but I wasn't really sure how fast that would be, because as you mentioned we generate heat and I have no idea how fast we radiate heat because I've always been in contact with something that would either cool me down or heat me up.

Anyway, intereasting read!

Now... Would anyone happen to know anything about the Kamakura Age in  Japan and the Confessions of Lady Nijo? lol

Offline Skraeling

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2006, 08:15:39 pm »
no no i wasnt suggesting you flash freeze, (wonder what temp that woudl happen at) but just if you would freeze to death or die from radiation or exxcess heat, or oxygen deprivation first :)

fun debate, not so fun to think about hah.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2006, 09:59:58 pm »
Well, regardless of good scientific basis, you have to admit it does look pretty cool to see that spider thing explode.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2006, 10:39:21 pm »
also would you freeze to death before suffocating?

Temperature in space is a complicated thing.

My understanding is that it depends on how far you are away, or where you are in relation to a sorce of energy. For example... If were are on the bright side of the moon you would die of radiation and the the sun's unobstructed heat. If you were on the dark side of the moon the energy radiating out of your body would disipate rapidly making you a human popcicle...of course you would die of rapid decompression first either way...so this is just in theory... :P
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2006, 03:47:58 am »
also would you freeze to death before suffocating?
And look what i have found!

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

Link on the site above:
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"Passing out in 15 seconds." And the advice: Don't hold your breath. In the words of The Will:
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"That's that!"

This affirms my argument: it says in one of those sites that you DO, in fact, depressurise, and that there is distortion of the skin and underlying vessels.
I am sorry for calling you an idiot; I wasn't in a very good mood at that point, and I didn't pursue it because I didn't want any animosity between us.
I never said that the person had to eplode, as such. I can't imaging what would knock someone out in ten seconds, though, unless it be the depressurisation factor.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2006, 09:07:05 am »
also would you freeze to death before suffocating?
And look what i have found!

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

Link on the site above:
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"Passing out in 15 seconds." And the advice: Don't hold your breath. In the words of The Will:
Quote
"That's that!"

This affirms my argument: it says in one of those sites that you DO, in fact, depressurise, and that there is distortion of the skin and underlying vessels.
I am sorry for calling you an idiot; I wasn't in a very good mood at that point, and I didn't pursue it because I didn't want any animosity between us.
I never said that the person had to eplode, as such. I can't imaging what would knock someone out in ten seconds, though, unless it be the depressurisation factor.
Well, when you enter a vaccuum, all the air in your lungs is sucked out (unless you hold your breath, which is dangerous), so unlike under water (where there is still oxygen in your lungs to keep oxygen-rich blood circulating), there is no oxygen, therefore no brain activity, therefore no consciousness.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2006, 01:07:35 pm »
I would assume some oxygen would remain in the bloodstream for more than 15 seconds. There is a diver, the name of who eludes me, who breaths out before diving without any oxygen.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2006, 01:21:07 pm »
I would assume some oxygen would remain in the bloodstream for more than 15 seconds. There is a diver, the name of who eludes me, who breaths out before diving without any oxygen.

Breathing out refers to removing the CO2 in their system not the O2.  Without any O2 you can't survive for more than about a minute and a half with no stress on the body.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2006, 05:31:04 pm »
they hyperventilate before taking a final deep breath before diving as far as i know.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2006, 07:25:27 am »
I would assume some oxygen would remain in the bloodstream for more than 15 seconds. There is a diver, the name of who eludes me, who breaths out before diving without any oxygen.

Breathing out refers to removing the CO2 in their system not the O2. Without any O2 you can't survive for more than about a minute and a half with no stress on the body.

Yep. When you hold your breath, the buildup of CO2 is what causes you to gasp for air - not a lack of O2. By exhaling the CO2 they can delay the CO2 toxicity response (the gasp) and hold their breath longer.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2006, 07:28:53 am »
I would assume some oxygen would remain in the bloodstream for more than 15 seconds. There is a diver, the name of who eludes me, who breaths out before diving without any oxygen.

Breathing out refers to removing the CO2 in their system not the O2. Without any O2 you can't survive for more than about a minute and a half with no stress on the body.

Yep. When you hold your breath, the buildup of CO2 is what causes you to gasp for air - not a lack of O2.

Which is an issue with hyperventalating.  You remove CO2 without adding much more O2 to the blood preventing your body from sensing that you need more O2 when your current supply runs out.  It is a leading cause of Shallow water drowning in free diving.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2006, 08:16:00 am »
just going back a bit would you be able to have a under-water
creature on a planet with out an atmosphere ???
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2006, 08:18:09 am »
I bloody hope not.  no atmosphere = no water...  and uninhabitable atmosphere (ie. no oxygen for us) = uninhabitable water (ie. no oxygen for fish)

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2006, 08:21:48 am »
yes but would it be possible ??
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2006, 08:34:41 am »
yes but would it be possible ??


It happens the same way an air breathing colony is formed.  A dome goes around the city until the planet is suitable for life.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2006, 08:37:47 am »
I think he meant an aquatic creature in a world with an unhospitable atmosphere.

As for no atmosphere.  As I said, no atmosphere = no water.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2006, 08:41:14 am »
I think he meant an aquatic creature in a world with an unhospitable atmosphere.

As for no atmosphere.  As I said, no atmosphere = no water.

I don't think we can guess on that yet since we don't really know if you can have a truely inhospitable atmosphere.  We haven't really found about about planet quality or what that means yet I think.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2006, 09:38:53 am »
no atmosphere = no gasses.  No gas = no liquids.  Though I think I'm beating on a long dead horse now (or at least terminally injured).

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2006, 01:42:28 am »
OK but say that there is an inhospitable atmosphere
but a sea ready for life i personally think there doesn't need to be
planets the same as earth to have life
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2006, 01:45:18 am »
does a planet eveen need an atmosphere to support sea life (just enough gravity to stop the weater floating away, and if they swam to the surface the would suffocate) maybe it would need a sheet of ice of over it.

p.s is the janths beck end just the back end of the microbe you start off as?
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2006, 02:44:31 am »
I don't think a water world without an atmosphere exists...

As far as I know, it's got to do with pressure, which causes all the water either to boil and evaporate (eventually creating an atmosphere though, but then again how the hell do you get a pressureless water planet?) or it causes it all to freeze...

I'm pretty sure all of the water will boil, though...

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2006, 02:48:11 am »
what about gas planets  ???
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2006, 10:59:53 am »
what about gas planets  ???

What about them?
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2006, 01:24:54 pm »
In the GDC '06 talk, Will Wright said that he has no problem with modifying a simulation to produce effects that people would expect rather than what would really happen. The example he gave was that in SimCity, when a nuclear power plant has a meltdown, it explodes and destroys stuff all around it, leaving radiation around, even though in reality that's not how it happens. So he probably made creatures explode in space because that's what most people would expect, and it's also much more dramatic and fun than simply watching it stop moving and die. The whole game has a theme of exaggeration, so it's not surprising that the effect of explosive decompression was exaggerated as well.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2006, 01:30:15 pm »
In the GDC '06 talk, Will Wright said that he has no problem with modifying a simulation to produce effects that people would expect rather than what would really happen. The example he gave was that in SimCity, when a nuclear power plant has a meltdown, it explodes and destroys stuff all around it, leaving radiation around, even though in reality that's not how it happens. So he probably made creatures explode in space because that's what most people would expect, and it's also much more dramatic and fun than simply watching it stop moving and die. The whole game has a theme of exaggeration, so it's not surprising that the effect of explosive decompression was exaggerated as well.

Agrred about the exaggeration, however, what do you mean when a nuclear plant explodes things don't get destroyed and radioactive?  That is exactly what happens.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2006, 01:35:43 pm »
Well that explains it then. Still, I wonder why Will had the creature explod on the planet. It looked cool I guess, but still there wasn't much of a scientific basis for it.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2006, 01:37:27 pm »
In the GDC '06 talk, Will Wright said that he has no problem with modifying a simulation to produce effects that people would expect rather than what would really happen. The example he gave was that in SimCity, when a nuclear power plant has a meltdown, it explodes and destroys stuff all around it, leaving radiation around, even though in reality that's not how it happens. So he probably made creatures explode in space because that's what most people would expect, and it's also much more dramatic and fun than simply watching it stop moving and die. The whole game has a theme of exaggeration, so it's not surprising that the effect of explosive decompression was exaggerated as well.

Agrred about the exaggeration, however, what do you mean when a nuclear plant explodes things don't get destroyed and radioactive?  That is exactly what happens.
Well at Chernobyl the reactor's top blew off and sent radioactive particles into the atmosphere but there wasn't buildings destroyed correct?

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2006, 01:41:29 pm »
In the GDC '06 talk, Will Wright said that he has no problem with modifying a simulation to produce effects that people would expect rather than what would really happen. The example he gave was that in SimCity, when a nuclear power plant has a meltdown, it explodes and destroys stuff all around it, leaving radiation around, even though in reality that's not how it happens. So he probably made creatures explode in space because that's what most people would expect, and it's also much more dramatic and fun than simply watching it stop moving and die. The whole game has a theme of exaggeration, so it's not surprising that the effect of explosive decompression was exaggerated as well.

Agrred about the exaggeration, however, what do you mean when a nuclear plant explodes things don't get destroyed and radioactive?  That is exactly what happens.
Well at Chernobyl the reactor's top blew off and sent radioactive particles into the atmosphere but there wasn't buildings destroyed correct?

Firstly, there weren't building next door to the plant.  Secondly, the reactor didn't have a full melt-down.  Thridly, the top of the reactor blew off, sounds like serious damage to me.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2006, 01:43:16 pm »
Firstly, there weren't building next door to the plant.  Secondly, the reactor didn't have a full melt-down.  Thridly, the top of the reactor blew off, sounds like serious damage to me.

Well, I've provided what Will said. So if you find what he said to be false, wrong, whatever, you can debate it with him.  ;)
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2006, 06:00:36 pm »
Yeah, sorry, I remembered incorrectly, he said when it catches on fire, not a meltdown.

However, even during a meltdown, nuclear plants don't explode. Chernobyl did because they didn't have proper containment. But for modern plants, if they have a meltdown, there won't be any explosions or radiation.

But, like Will said, he sometimes changes his simulations to behave the way most people would expect it to, since they are games, after all, and games are designed to be fun.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2006, 06:06:37 pm »
Yeah, sorry, I remembered incorrectly, he said when it catches on fire, not a meltdown.

However, even during a meltdown, nuclear plants don't explode. Chernobyl did because they didn't have proper containment. But for modern plants, if they have a meltdown, there won't be any explosions or radiation.

But, like Will said, he sometimes changes his simulations to behave the way most people would expect it to, since they are games, after all, and games are designed to be fun.

Just for the record, it did have proper containment but it was turned off for some testing they were trying due to poor training. 

I agree though, games need to be made to show things people expect (at least to within a certain degree).  I am sure WW will be doing a great job with this one.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2006, 06:45:32 pm »
lets go with the simplist atmosphere composition
Gas A. neutral nitrogen equivelent large quantities mitigates efects of other two
Gas B. corrosive oxygen equivelent necesary for animal life, and flamable
Gas C. greenhouse carbondioxide equivelent necesary for plant life

each of the three could have color atributes making atmospheric mix a question of color
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2006, 06:49:24 pm »
lets go with the simplist atmosphere composition
Gas A. neutral nitrogen equivelent large quantities mitigates efects of other two
Gas B. corrosive oxygen equivelent necesary for animal life, and flamable
Gas C. greenhouse carbondioxide equivelent necesary for plant life

each of the three could have color atributes making atmospheric mix a question of color


I expect that color will be arbitrary with a habitability score being present that you can interpret however you want.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2006, 09:46:35 pm »
I think water creatures will be fun to play with.  Explore the oceans.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2006, 03:04:55 pm »
well i always thought they would do something similar to MoO3, where each planet had an XY figure that showed pressure and temperature, and each species had a preference based on the planet they evolved on, with wider and wider circles for degrees of habitability.  i noticed in the youtube video that the "gumdrop" planet appeared highly acidic, so there might be a scale for PH balance, or just different chemical compositions of the planet's air/water/surface.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2006, 03:08:22 pm »
well i always thought they would do something similar to MoO3, where each planet had an XY figure that showed pressure and temperature, and each species had a preference based on the planet they evolved on, with wider and wider circles for degrees of habitability.  i noticed in the youtube video that the "gumdrop" planet appeared highly acidic, so there might be a scale for PH balance, or just different chemical compositions of the planet's air/water/surface.

It might be similar to that, though I imagine a little simplier maybe with Temp and pressure or atmosphere type being the only 2 variables.  I just hope there is some realistic variation in solar power so that the further you are from the sun the dimmer it is.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2006, 03:46:20 pm »
right, but we might have some complications, as water creatures wouldn't give a hoot about air pressure, and the water pressure would just get higher with depth.  also i was confused a bit about the gumdrop planet: we have the terrestrial planet, the gumdrop planet, and THEN the acid planet.  maybe the pressure and temperature would serve as the real standard (oceans be damned) with the various "planet types" being based on that.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2006, 04:49:12 pm »
In the 1up video, you can clearly see 5 status bars for a planet. It's extremely likely that these will correspond to the following: atmosphere, hydrosphere, geosphere, biosphere, and civilization (not nessecarily in that order). Those were the main components of a planet in SimEarth, and Will Wright has a long history of taking elements from previous games into new games. Plus, a part of Spore is basically Will's vision of SimEarth, but done right (he didn't have the technology to really make it work with SimEarth). Some furthur evidence of this is the fact that by just hovering over the planet and looking at the bars, Will was able to tell that the planet had wildlife (biosphere), but no civilization.

While it would be cool to have a more detailed system, it's just not very likely. The overall theme of this game is simplicity. It's basically a collection of simple, smaller games put together to form one big game. Individually, each of these games is very simple, but when you look at the entire game as a whole, it's as complicated as your average game. Will wants to keep it simple so that the casual player can have fun with it too. He doesn't want them to be sitting there trying to figure out what all the little buttons do and what all the numbers mean. Some people like that kind of thing, but many people don't. And I'm sure there's people that would refuse to play a game that isn't that complicated, but such people would be a tiny minority and there's no reason for Will to sculpt his game for them.

Offline Leng

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2006, 05:02:52 pm »
actually the system in MoO3 was pretty simple.  you just saw a box with a little X in it representing a given planet, and there would be concentric colored circles to show the preferred habitability of your race, and the position of the X relative to the circles would intuitively tell you how habitable the planet was.
I have been told
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but I'm unable to share it with others
They call me a poet who'll never have a poem
a tiger with no taste for bone
I'm the wonderful wonderful wizard who's waltzing alone

Offline mrodgers

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2006, 06:09:54 pm »
In the 1up video, you can clearly see 5 status bars for a planet. It's extremely likely that these will correspond to the following: atmosphere, hydrosphere, geosphere, biosphere, and civilization (not nessecarily in that order). Those were the main components of a planet in SimEarth, and Will Wright has a long history of taking elements from previous games into new games. Plus, a part of Spore is basically Will's vision of SimEarth, but done right (he didn't have the technology to really make it work with SimEarth). Some furthur evidence of this is the fact that by just hovering over the planet and looking at the bars, Will was able to tell that the planet had wildlife (biosphere), but no civilization.

This sounds like a fair way to show a planet's stats and how they might affect your creature.
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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2006, 07:27:48 pm »
actually the system in MoO3 was pretty simple.  you just saw a box with a little X in it representing a given planet, and there would be concentric colored circles to show the preferred habitability of your race, and the position of the X relative to the circles would intuitively tell you how habitable the planet was.

Yes, it would probably work well, but it just doesn't seem very likely. Will's more likely to copy his own previous games than other peoples' games.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #74 on: May 08, 2006, 07:30:40 pm »
actually the system in MoO3 was pretty simple.  you just saw a box with a little X in it representing a given planet, and there would be concentric colored circles to show the preferred habitability of your race, and the position of the X relative to the circles would intuitively tell you how habitable the planet was.

Yes, it would probably work well, but it just doesn't seem very likely. Will's more likely to copy his own previous games than other peoples' games.

Except he's never tried something at quite this scale.  I am sure there will be some copying and improv from other games.
Check out my (Thurlin's) creatures, building, and vehicles.  You won't be disappointed.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #75 on: May 08, 2006, 07:35:53 pm »
actually the system in MoO3 was pretty simple.  you just saw a box with a little X in it representing a given planet, and there would be concentric colored circles to show the preferred habitability of your race, and the position of the X relative to the circles would intuitively tell you how habitable the planet was.

Yes, it would probably work well, but it just doesn't seem very likely. Will's more likely to copy his own previous games than other peoples' games.

Except he's never tried something at quite this scale.  I am sure there will be some copying and improv from other games.

Yes, but what I mean is, he already created a way to measure a planet's stats with SimEarth, so why would he go and create a whole new system or copy a completely different system from someone else when his original one worked just fine? Just look through Maxis's products and you'll see many systems copied over to newer games when they were needed. If something works well, they stick with it.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #76 on: May 08, 2006, 07:39:35 pm »
actually the system in MoO3 was pretty simple.  you just saw a box with a little X in it representing a given planet, and there would be concentric colored circles to show the preferred habitability of your race, and the position of the X relative to the circles would intuitively tell you how habitable the planet was.

Yes, it would probably work well, but it just doesn't seem very likely. Will's more likely to copy his own previous games than other peoples' games.

Except he's never tried something at quite this scale.  I am sure there will be some copying and improv from other games.

Yes, but what I mean is, he already created a way to measure a planet's stats with SimEarth, so why would he go and create a whole new system or copy a completely different system from someone else when his original one worked just fine? Just look through Maxis's products and you'll see many systems copied over to newer games when they were needed. If something works well, they stick with it.

Even if he wanted to use something similar to the original method, it would need so much jazzing up to bring it up to today's standards that, I bet, you wouldn't even recognize it except in gross similarities.
Check out my (Thurlin's) creatures, building, and vehicles.  You won't be disappointed.

http://www.spore.com/flash/csa_widget.swf?userid=2263477425&username=Thurlin&host=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spore.com%2Fview%2Fuser-thumbnail

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #77 on: May 08, 2006, 07:51:12 pm »
actually the system in MoO3 was pretty simple.  you just saw a box with a little X in it representing a given planet, and there would be concentric colored circles to show the preferred habitability of your race, and the position of the X relative to the circles would intuitively tell you how habitable the planet was.

Yes, it would probably work well, but it just doesn't seem very likely. Will's more likely to copy his own previous games than other peoples' games.

Except he's never tried something at quite this scale.  I am sure there will be some copying and improv from other games.

Yes, but what I mean is, he already created a way to measure a planet's stats with SimEarth, so why would he go and create a whole new system or copy a completely different system from someone else when his original one worked just fine? Just look through Maxis's products and you'll see many systems copied over to newer games when they were needed. If something works well, they stick with it.

Even if he wanted to use something similar to the original method, it would need so much jazzing up to bring it up to today's standards that, I bet, you wouldn't even recognize it except in gross similarities.

I don't see why... he said Spore is supposed to be simple. It's not going to be nearly as complicated as SimEarth. I don't see how 5 status bars needs any kind of "jazzing up" or how that would effect my ability to recognize it... I've already recognized it from just the tiniest bit of footage. If you can give me a realistic alternative for what those 5 bars stand for that is more likely than what I suggested, then I'd love to hear it.

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Re: Gasping for Air
« Reply #78 on: May 09, 2006, 10:39:56 am »
the thing is that those 5 status bars represented much more than 5 statistics.  for example the atmosphere section would include the relative levels of nitrogen, oxygen, CO2, water vapor, dust particles, and also the average temperature and pressure... and also wind direction and speed for every coordinate on the planet.  so if we end up slimming this system down it would be MoO3 all over again.
I have been told
not by one but two of my lovers
that I've got a heart of gold
but I'm unable to share it with others
They call me a poet who'll never have a poem
a tiger with no taste for bone
I'm the wonderful wonderful wizard who's waltzing alone