Author Topic: "History of Your Creature"  (Read 9187 times)

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Offline xnodas

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"History of Your Creature"
« on: March 26, 2006, 02:22:21 am »
Each creature is now going to have a "history" page for the creature to keep track of creature and how well it fairs on others' computers.  Things like people having your creature downloaded, how many times it has fallen to a player's creature, or beaten a player's creature.  For a while now, Spore hasn't had anything that has excited me even more about this game until I heard this on GamingSteve's new cast(3/23/06).  This is going to be how you can boast about your creatures to your friends.  I love this idea.  Another way they are making your creature yours.  However, do you think it will tell you what stage of your creature is being downloaded the most or has won the most fights?  You might have made a mistake with your creature in one or two of the evolutions, but then made up for it a little later.  How it compensate for the minor changes in the creature you make?


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Offline $kelet0r

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2006, 02:32:59 am »
the possibilities of having a history is interesting alright
i'd love if it included the feature to roll back to a point in the creature's development and make different choices ingame
like in Black and White 2 where you could see what your actions caused by looking inside your creature's brain

Offline Zen

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2006, 02:45:12 am »
I think as a side effect from the History feature you will see "champions" emerge in different catagories- which will actually be optimised creature designs that exploit the procedural animation scripting.  For instance: In the 05 spore video the creature called Dilemma had fastest gait to it only because of the way the legs were positioned.  Eventually some nut will tweak and refine the absolute fastest combination of leg length, body shape, etc, and that will become the cheetah of the spore universe.  Likewise there will be the fighting version as well, (t-rex?) and then the best average between the two -fastest and strongest combo.  Although this is cool, the negative impact the History feature will have is that it will get people focussed on the champions and so you'll have many variations of these.  Possibly too many.  I doubt there's any way to avoid this, but perhaps it can be diluted by introducing other qualifiers like: weirdest, slowest, coolest, longest, shortest, tallest, most robust, spikiest, etc.

Offline $kelet0r

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2006, 02:48:18 am »
i can see problems arising from that though - how long would it take to assemble the ultimate creature by cheating and then uploading it into the spore database and ruining everyone elses' game by bing far too powerful to beat fairly :(
difficult to prevent

Offline DarkDragon

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2006, 02:58:33 am »
if the game works like gta then it will know when cheats were used and it probably won't upload any of the creatures created with cheats :)
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Offline $kelet0r

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2006, 03:01:34 am »
if the game works like gta then it will know when cheats were used and it probably won't upload any of the creatures created with cheats :)
not by using cheats necessarily but by altering the game files/data - anyone with some game making/modding experience could do it

Offline Golgrig

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2006, 03:04:55 am »
Why worry about cheaters when it is simpler to work it on the other end and let them have their fun?
personally i think anything better than you wouln't be insanely better than you, or the insanely better creature will have to work hard just to live, the cheeta may be fastest but it needs to be cause its prey can move fast so it has to be faster, and notice that big cats sleep most of the time they are not built for endurance

the splodey that attacked wills creature is actually a hyenna it smelled the kill and scavenged it
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Offline Zen

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2006, 03:09:51 am »
Skelet0r- I hear ya.  

Actually, one way to prevent this is to constantly update the script that procedurally creates these abilities.  (I wrote about this in another post- The Omni-Script http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=3089.0 )


For instance, if there were a T-rex creature who was unfairly the strongest and fastest, an update to the script that generates every creatures movements and behaviour (I call it the omni-script) may now include the ability to hunt in packs and climb trees.  In this case a voracious form of carnivorous flying monkeys may usurp the T-rex's throne, which would have been previously impossible since the older omni-script never allowed for it.  So the goal posts would constantly change and therefore so would the game's champions.  Then the next update may include a creatures ability to roll into a ball to defend itself, and also to roll as an attack.  A spiky armadillo may then become the new champion.  Etc, etc...
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 03:13:47 am by Zen »

Offline $kelet0r

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2006, 03:44:40 am »
hmm i can see that as a stop gap solution - however if the script created a NPC creature to counter a database downloaded hacked abilities creature - then you would be completely locked out of the game all together
although it would be one hell of an interesting experiment to observe, it would mean starting afresh/deleting large chunks of content  :-[

Offline huggkruka

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2006, 03:59:04 am »
If you create an über-creature, then it will only be downloaded to an environment which can support it. Balanced eco-systems, remember? That makes me wonder exactly how those statistics work. Since all planets you encounter have balanced eco-systems(I assume they have)  then it's really hard for your creature to dominate other species, isn't it? Maybe if you're killed off by Splodey in the creature stage(you might try to fight him instead of running) then he get's one "dominate point" or whatever.

Offline slugfly

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2006, 04:29:08 am »
here's a strange thought...

perhaps, for the first time ever, cheats won't matter.  If the database guages the power and "level" of a creature instead of the game itself guaging the 'level' before uploading, then cheating will just mean lots of great high end content.

I'm playing Spore and I enter a cheat (or modder made cheating tool) and make a super strong super big monster that will tear anyone apart!  Then, it's uploaded and it would only end up being downloaded by people who can handle that monster in their ecosystem, because the communal database has analyzed the creature and knows what 'level' it is.  Nobody is going to use cheats to make 'pygmy-lobsters with sponges for claws' so the cheated creatures will all be very high-end, meaning very low downloads (except for those of us who may end up enjoying the nature part more than the civ parts and so spent lots of time getting powerful creatures in their ecosystems)

Offline Tantalus

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2006, 05:07:49 am »
When you say hack and cheat, what do you mean? Do you mean just designing the creature without having to pay with whatever currency is in game, or do you mean hacking the game files to add a +5 movement bonus to your creature? Personally the first doesn't matter to me because you could do that anyway, the second I don't think would be possible unless you actually edited the procedural movement script which does not get uploaded, each pc figures out how to animate on its own, so it would only affect your copy of Spore.

Offline Tarrasque

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2006, 05:30:09 am »
Cheats are not necessary for the power-gamer. For one, the creature editor is freely available as soon as you have genetic engineering.
Everybody will be able to create "insanely powerful" creatures. Maybe even before the game comes out, if the creature editor is the demo, Steve has already hinted at it.

Then again, what is a powerful creature? One that pwns every other creature? Powerful creatures have drawbacks, they need a lot of food, there can't be many if they are fast they can't be heavy, if they are heavy they can't be fast etc. If I design a litte groundhog that always runs away at every sign of trouble, I will not be blessed with a high killboard ranking. Are successful evasions counted, too? In one on one matches this makes sense maybe, surely these are possible. And insanely fun.  ;)

huggkruka already said it: Balanced Ecosystems. And for every creature that might want to eat yours, you can devise counter strategies. An ecosystem where every creature is insanely powerfull cannot exist, because then there would not be much to eat. Well, in a real ecosystem that is. What will packs of hungry TerrorRexes eat? If they become too powerful, they die. Maybe they even start eating themselves!

If slugfly designs the Jigsaw Lion, a very strong predator, capable of hunting and taking down the strongest of the Bulkyphants, what would you do if it suddenly appears in your ecosystem as the high end carnivore? Well with the next generation you would try to become faster to evade the bugger. Or you start to get bigger and bigger and become a herd animal with nasty spikes (which the Bulkyphants originally in slugfly's word lacked). Or you become stealthy, live in the woods. Stealth is in, Will said it in the old GDC video, we just don't know whether it is procedurally emergent or whether you can consciously design your creature that way.

Maybe you move out of the tropics into the arctics, where the Jigsaw Lion doesn't roam. Or become a pack hunter yourself. What can even the largest cat do against a pack of bloodthirsty StingerBadgers?

I think we should discard the thought of having "the" strongest, "the" best, "the" coolest creature and so on.These things don't exist. No matter how fast your Cheetahgazelle is, the flying monkeys will always be faster, especially if they start packing assault rifles. And in the end, even the strongest creatures will find themselves staring at the wrong end of spears ;D
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 05:39:44 am by Tarrasque »
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Offline slugfly

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2006, 05:38:47 am »
mmm.... flying monkeys with assault rifles!  *sweet*

I like the idea indeed that there will always be something better.

I hope that single planets can include a variety of climates also, instead of an ice planet, desert planet, temperate planet and tropical planet, it would be nice to have some planets that have iced poles, temperate midsections and tropical equators, speckled with deserts here and there.

Offline Hydromancerx

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2006, 09:10:42 am »

I like the idea indeed that there will always be something better.


Well maybe not "better" but something that is superior to a creatures weaknesses. Think of it like rock, paper , scissors. Where say rock is superior to scissors, but then paper can beat rock, and scissors can in turn defeat paper. In short there may be an animal good at alot of things but there wiil always bee that animal that can kill it off no matter what (and one to kill that creature to, and so on).

Offline starshard0

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2006, 09:27:58 am »
Yuck, that's a terrible idea, I don't WANT to know how my creature stacks up against other people, I just want to play the game. +1 for me opting-out.
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Offline Mason11987

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2006, 09:52:02 am »
Yuck, that's a terrible idea, I don't WANT to know how my creature stacks up against other people, I just want to play the game. +1 for me opting-out.

Good thing you don't have to look at it if you don't want to ;)  I don't see how features that don't effect you at all or are even noticable unless you look for them can be a downside at all.
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Offline starshard0

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2006, 10:18:33 am »
Yuck, that's a terrible idea, I don't WANT to know how my creature stacks up against other people, I just want to play the game. +1 for me opting-out.

Good thing you don't have to look at it if you don't want to ;)  I don't see how features that don't effect you at all or are even noticable unless you look for them can be a downside at all.
Well, that's a good point, but I suppose it's the fact that it's there that bugs me. Like, say I'm walking through a Spencer's looking for some vake vomit, and I'm stuck walking through aisles fille with "Horny Goat Weed" and a bunch of sex toys. It doesn't affect me because I'm niether looking for them or planning on buying them, but it's still creepy to be around.
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Offline huggkruka

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2006, 10:39:42 am »
What the hell? How does those two compare? You, sir, are pretty strange.

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2006, 10:51:03 am »
What the hell? How does those two compare? You, sir, are pretty strange.
Well, maybe that's a little extreme to compare, but my point is that I don't like MMOG's. As far as I can tell, this practically is one, except no one's playing together in the same galaxy. I don't WANT to know what other people are doing or how they're playing, or how my creature is being used. That's why I buy games that have good single player modes, so I don't have to deal with other people.
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Offline huggkruka

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2006, 11:04:41 am »
Then don't press the button! Problem solved! If I don't want to see German guys screwing watermelons, then I don't visit those sites(to use a similar anology)

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2006, 11:16:16 am »
Then don't press the button! Problem solved! If I don't want to see German guys screwing watermelons, then I don't visit those sites(to use a similar anology)
Yes, but say there was a link to German guys screwing watermelons on THIS site, wouldn't you be a little concerned?
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Offline mrodgers

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2006, 11:31:46 am »
Then don't press the button! Problem solved! If I don't want to see German guys screwing watermelons, then I don't visit those sites(to use a similar anology)
Yes, but say there was a link to German guys screwing watermelons on THIS site, wouldn't you be a little concerned?

You sir seem to be worrying about nothing.  If you don't like online, as you've said in other threads, just don't play it with the net on so your creature can't get uploaded or downloaded and you will be all set.  Its a nice feature to have (to see how your creature is doing).  A lot of people will want to see and for those who dont want to see or don't care its a non-issue since you aren't forced to look.
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Offline Skraeling

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2006, 12:07:31 pm »
even if someone does make the "uber" creature the AI will still be controlling it, so you can probably beat it handily if you try.

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Offline Mason11987

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2006, 04:57:23 pm »
Yuck, that's a terrible idea, I don't WANT to know how my creature stacks up against other people, I just want to play the game. +1 for me opting-out.

Good thing you don't have to look at it if you don't want to ;)  I don't see how features that don't effect you at all or are even noticable unless you look for them can be a downside at all.
Well, that's a good point, but I suppose it's the fact that it's there that bugs me. Like, say I'm walking through a Spencer's looking for some vake vomit, and I'm stuck walking through aisles fille with "Horny Goat Weed" and a bunch of sex toys. It doesn't affect me because I'm niether looking for them or planning on buying them, but it's still creepy to be around.

I have no idea what you're talking about, how could it bother you?  It's statistics.  That comparision isn't even CLOSE to legit.  The best comparison would be if you were offended by ink on paper and you walked into a store and in the back corner there was a box that if you opened you would see ink on paper.  O MY GOD, THE HORROR!
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Offline Zen

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2006, 02:15:59 am »
I think this thread is getting crazy and confused, especially about two issues: Cheating, and Saying No to Statistics.

Personally, I don't know how (or why) anyone would want to cheat.  But let's say they did.  I don't think hacked creatures with attributes that exceed the games limits would be seen by the History or Upload feature.  They would be immediately not counted.  What I was meaning was creatures that have specific combinations (created normally in the editor) that take advantage of how the scirpt analyses strength, speed, etc, will emerge in greater number than those that don't- especially with the History/Statistics feature helping them to refine these combinations.  With this in mind, there will naturally be these particular combinations of creatures dominating the player-created creatures out there.  They would exist as a type of "classic design" for strength, speed, and both.  (Updating the script that these creature designs are taking advantage of so that the old ways of exploitation are no longer as significant, or even relevant, is a way around this- and I think will be inevitable anwyay (if the Spore creators go down this route)).

Saying no to statistics seems a little strange to me.  You will naturally see these classic designs appearing in your shopping list of creatures to buy (or discover).  They may come in the form of the classic six-legged creature, or classic human-like creature, but there will definitely be a range of agreed upon templates because they simply work well.  The only way to say no to these statistics is to either: not access the History statistics, or not recognise them as they occur in-game.   :-\


Offline mrodgers

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2006, 06:09:54 am »
I think this thread is getting crazy and confused, especially about two issues: Cheating, and Saying No to Statistics.
...


Umm where do you see people talking about cheating?  This seems like a pretty clean statistics thread.
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Offline catnip18

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2006, 04:58:11 pm »
Cheating will most likely be in the game..... Maxis has had no problem with putting in cheats... sims, sims 2, sim city 1-4..... it pretty much says it will be in spore which is another simulatation game.

Offline Willeisen

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2006, 05:36:24 pm »
Cheating will most likely be in the game..... Maxis has had no problem with putting in cheats... sims, sims 2, sim city 1-4..... it pretty much says it will be in spore which is another simulatation game.

Pretty much every other Sim game had them too...remember "rainholes" for Sim Ant...?
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Offline catnip18

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2006, 05:38:54 pm »
Only time i SAW not PLAYED sim ant was when i was 7... a old v.... i dont rember it at ALL

Offline Zen

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2006, 01:11:43 pm »
Mrodgers asked me, "Umm where do you see people talking about cheating?"

Well, umm... did you read the thread?

$kelet0r - i can see problems arising from that though - how long would it take to assemble the ultimate creature by cheating and then uploading it into the spore database and ruining everyone elses' game by bing far too powerful to beat fairly difficult to prevent

and...

not by using cheats necessarily but by altering the game files/data - anyone with some game making/modding experience could do it

etc, etc... 

Offline Tantalus

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2006, 02:20:52 pm »
The question is not will these game files be modified, but how will they be animated on each persons PC. To make the same skeleton run faster or bite harder or such I really think your going to have to modify the procedural animation files, not the creature files.

Offline mrodgers

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2006, 05:02:50 am »
Mrodgers asked me, "Umm where do you see people talking about cheating?"

Well, umm... did you read the thread?

$kelet0r - i can see problems arising from that though - how long would it take to assemble the ultimate creature by cheating and then uploading it into the spore database and ruining everyone elses' game by bing far too powerful to beat fairly difficult to prevent

and...

not by using cheats necessarily but by altering the game files/data - anyone with some game making/modding experience could do it

etc, etc... 

If you had been reading this forum you would know that cheats would not give you an uber creature, at least not on other people's systems.  Creatures are downloaded to balance out an ecosystem.  You won't find a Godzilla in a world of rabbits, that would throw things off too far.  There will always be a top predator and a bottom food source but there will be a balance to prevent one creature from over-running everything.  And creatures are only as good as the AI controlling them as well.  We don't yet know how that will happen and how much it will be affected by how you react with your creature.  For all we know the AI might turn your super-predator into  a middle of the road predator because of how it sees your creatures skeleton and features acting in an environment.
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Offline Zen

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Re: "History of Your Creature"
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2006, 09:34:41 pm »
I'm not here to discuss the why's and wherefores of cheating or how it would work.  All I was doing with my last post (which was a response to yours) was to prove that people on this forum were talking about cheating.   Which I did.   I don't want to talk about cheating with you, mrogers.   :-\