Author Topic: V for Vendetta  (Read 21956 times)

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Offline Leng

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2006, 05:38:01 pm »
mmm, right.

notice who plays the chancellor and why this is funny?
I have been told
not by one but two of my lovers
that I've got a heart of gold
but I'm unable to share it with others
They call me a poet who'll never have a poem
a tiger with no taste for bone
I'm the wonderful wonderful wizard who's waltzing alone

Offline PHI-1618

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2006, 07:32:12 am »
Guy Fawkes, along with a group of conspirators, tried to blow up Parlament on November 5th, 1605, in what is commonly referred to as the Gunpowder Plot. He failed. V wears a Fawkes mask in reference to Fawkes's activities due to some more recent analyses of the Gunpowder Plot that reveal Fawkes may have had some reason to want to blow up Parlament. Whether you buy into that or not, it's partly what Alan Moore was referencing with V.

I saw the movie. And yes, it does connect much of what happens in it towards the current political situation here in the States -- which I found a bit blown out of proportion, frankly. Despite some extremists' views that America has become a fascist state, we're not quite there and would never reach that level. My reasoning is pretty simple and relates to the key factor in the revolutinary actions taken in another Brit's story, Transmetropolitan by Warren Ellis.

They changed some things from the book, though that's expected at this point. I will say that I really enjoyed the movie and felt Weaving and Portman did fantastic jobs. The excessive use of the knives was unnecessary but good for entertainment value if for nothing else. Some of the film was very powerful, and I chalk that up primarily to the leads' performances. And for those of you relatively unfamiliar with Natalie Portman, you should check out LEON, the film that sort of brought her to acknowledgement as an actress that she made when she was 12. Some of her other films include: Beautiful Girls (in which she's the best part), Mars Attacks, the latest Star Wars trilogy (in which she was basically told not to act), Where the Heart Is, Closer, and probably her greatest performance as Anne Frank in the play. She's quite lovely and a wonderful actress when she's given material and a director worth a damn. She has been compared at times to Audrey Hepburn, though that's hit or miss with me.

Offline TheShark

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2006, 01:51:33 pm »
I saw the movie. And yes, it does connect much of what happens in it towards the current political situation here in the States -- which I found a bit blown out of proportion, frankly. Despite some extremists' views that America has become a fascist state, we're not quite there and would never reach that level. My reasoning is pretty simple and relates to the key factor in the revolutinary actions taken in another Brit's story, Transmetropolitan by Warren Ellis.

They never say America was faciast or anything. They said "their war went on too long", that there was some disease that affected us, and that we are now in civil war. All of which is very possible. I know I will be yelled at now, but would anyone really be surprised if the Bush administration found a large nuclear weapon stash in some nearby country and we continued the war?

Wow, this makes me realize how long it's been since I was an active user here.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2006, 01:55:57 pm »
I saw the movie. And yes, it does connect much of what happens in it towards the current political situation here in the States -- which I found a bit blown out of proportion, frankly. Despite some extremists' views that America has become a fascist state, we're not quite there and would never reach that level. My reasoning is pretty simple and relates to the key factor in the revolutinary actions taken in another Brit's story, Transmetropolitan by Warren Ellis.

They never say America was faciast or anything. They said "their war went on too long", that there was some disease that affected us, and that we are now in civil war. All of which is very possible. I know I will be yelled at now, but would anyone really be surprised if the Bush administration found a large nuclear weapon stash in some nearby country and we continued the war?

I think a resurgence of fascism is only a few generations away. One the memories of the world wars begin to fade people will decide that it isnt all that bad and the whole thing will start again.
"would never reach that level" yeah, right. You can believe that if you want.
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline PHI-1618

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2006, 11:22:29 am »
I saw the movie. And yes, it does connect much of what happens in it towards the current political situation here in the States -- which I found a bit blown out of proportion, frankly. Despite some extremists' views that America has become a fascist state, we're not quite there and would never reach that level. My reasoning is pretty simple and relates to the key factor in the revolutinary actions taken in another Brit's story, Transmetropolitan by Warren Ellis.

They never say America was faciast or anything. They said "their war went on too long", that there was some disease that affected us, and that we are now in civil war. All of which is very possible. I know I will be yelled at now, but would anyone really be surprised if the Bush administration found a large nuclear weapon stash in some nearby country and we continued the war?

I think a resurgence of fascism is only a few generations away. One the memories of the world wars begin to fade people will decide that it isnt all that bad and the whole thing will start again.
"would never reach that level" yeah, right. You can believe that if you want.
Fascism tends to take place in countries that are geographically small or have a strong, central belief system (be that religion or philosophy). The United States is far too big, contains too many types of people with so many different views on things, the chances of fascism ever appearing in this country is minute. And even less likely is that it would last very long if it ever did. As for whether we would continue the war if we found a nuclear stash elsewhere, I doubt it; I think we're pretty much stuck in Iraq at this point. And the amount of **** that has landed on Bush's doorstep due to the Iraqi war is not something he can just sluff off and continue on his merry way after. If anything else if found someone else, the United States will have to go through UN channels. We can't handle the alternative of going it more or less alone again.

So you're welcome to fantasize about the US becoming a fascist state, but it will never truly happen. At least the odds of it occurring are so statistically small as to be non-existent. The only thing I saw in V for Vendetta, the movie, that seemed plausible was that there might someday be another American Civil War. I can see that far easier than the US turning completely fascist. As for a plague hitting: It's possible. Of course. It's possible anywhere that a plague could appear that would decimate a strong country and turn it into a shadow of its former self.

Offline Skraeling

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2006, 02:07:14 pm »
bird flu anyone...

No, really.  I am a card carrying scientist.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2006, 12:03:06 am »
I saw the movie. And yes, it does connect much of what happens in it towards the current political situation here in the States -- which I found a bit blown out of proportion, frankly. Despite some extremists' views that America has become a fascist state, we're not quite there and would never reach that level. My reasoning is pretty simple and relates to the key factor in the revolutinary actions taken in another Brit's story, Transmetropolitan by Warren Ellis.

They never say America was faciast or anything. They said "their war went on too long", that there was some disease that affected us, and that we are now in civil war. All of which is very possible. I know I will be yelled at now, but would anyone really be surprised if the Bush administration found a large nuclear weapon stash in some nearby country and we continued the war?

I think a resurgence of fascism is only a few generations away. One the memories of the world wars begin to fade people will decide that it isnt all that bad and the whole thing will start again.
"would never reach that level" yeah, right. You can believe that if you want.
Fascism tends to take place in countries that are geographically small or have a strong, central belief system (be that religion or philosophy). The United States is far too big, contains too many types of people with so many different views on things, the chances of fascism ever appearing in this country is minute. And even less likely is that it would last very long if it ever did. As for whether we would continue the war if we found a nuclear stash elsewhere, I doubt it; I think we're pretty much stuck in Iraq at this point. And the amount of **** that has landed on Bush's doorstep due to the Iraqi war is not something he can just sluff off and continue on his merry way after. If anything else if found someone else, the United States will have to go through UN channels. We can't handle the alternative of going it more or less alone again.

So you're welcome to fantasize about the US becoming a fascist state, but it will never truly happen. At least the odds of it occurring are so statistically small as to be non-existent. The only thing I saw in V for Vendetta, the movie, that seemed plausible was that there might someday be another American Civil War. I can see that far easier than the US turning completely fascist. As for a plague hitting: It's possible. Of course. It's possible anywhere that a plague could appear that would decimate a strong country and turn it into a shadow of its former self.
Yah, because Germany is SUCH a small country ::).

And dont say America doesnt have a strong central belief system (and I'm not just talking about christianity here) the entire country seems to revolve around The Constitution. Even hard-line religious nutjobs actually worry about whether something is unconstitutional (on one of the other threads a young earth creationist site spent quite a while trying to justify their beliefs with the US constitution, why even bother?).
Every country has the potential to become a fascist hell hole. America is not special, being young it has plenty of ideals and has that go-get-em attitude that all superpowers have at first. But look at Rome, it started as a city founded on democratic ideals, then in a time of upheaval a system of dictators was instated. Then just when it seemed that Rome was going to last forever it stagnated and collapsed.

The lesson here is thsat nothing lasts forever (especially not if you say it will. "the third reich will last for a thousand years :P)
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline TheShark

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2006, 05:04:22 am »
I saw the movie. And yes, it does connect much of what happens in it towards the current political situation here in the States -- which I found a bit blown out of proportion, frankly. Despite some extremists' views that America has become a fascist state, we're not quite there and would never reach that level. My reasoning is pretty simple and relates to the key factor in the revolutinary actions taken in another Brit's story, Transmetropolitan by Warren Ellis.

They never say America was faciast or anything. They said "their war went on too long", that there was some disease that affected us, and that we are now in civil war. All of which is very possible. I know I will be yelled at now, but would anyone really be surprised if the Bush administration found a large nuclear weapon stash in some nearby country and we continued the war?

I think a resurgence of fascism is only a few generations away. One the memories of the world wars begin to fade people will decide that it isnt all that bad and the whole thing will start again.
"would never reach that level" yeah, right. You can believe that if you want.
Fascism tends to take place in countries that are geographically small or have a strong, central belief system (be that religion or philosophy). The United States is far too big, contains too many types of people with so many different views on things, the chances of fascism ever appearing in this country is minute. And even less likely is that it would last very long if it ever did. As for whether we would continue the war if we found a nuclear stash elsewhere, I doubt it; I think we're pretty much stuck in Iraq at this point. And the amount of **** that has landed on Bush's doorstep due to the Iraqi war is not something he can just sluff off and continue on his merry way after. If anything else if found someone else, the United States will have to go through UN channels. We can't handle the alternative of going it more or less alone again.

So you're welcome to fantasize about the US becoming a fascist state, but it will never truly happen. At least the odds of it occurring are so statistically small as to be non-existent. The only thing I saw in V for Vendetta, the movie, that seemed plausible was that there might someday be another American Civil War. I can see that far easier than the US turning completely fascist. As for a plague hitting: It's possible. Of course. It's possible anywhere that a plague could appear that would decimate a strong country and turn it into a shadow of its former self.
Yah, because Germany is SUCH a small country ::).

And dont say America doesnt have a strong central belief system (and I'm not just talking about christianity here) the entire country seems to revolve around The Constitution. Even hard-line religious nutjobs actually worry about whether something is unconstitutional (on one of the other threads a young earth creationist site spent quite a while trying to justify their beliefs with the US constitution, why even bother?).
Every country has the potential to become a fascist hell hole. America is not special, being young it has plenty of ideals and has that go-get-em attitude that all superpowers have at first. But look at Rome, it started as a city founded on democratic ideals, then in a time of upheaval a system of dictators was instated. Then just when it seemed that Rome was going to last forever it stagnated and collapsed.

The lesson here is thsat nothing lasts forever (especially not if you say it will. "the third reich will last for a thousand years :P)

Exactly, I agree completely. I think America has time to change, but I know that if it were to continue to get out of hand that we would end up in a bad place. We have this ideal that since we are so powerful, we should decide who is in power and who runs each world government. One of these days someone will decide that our government is corrupt and will "liberate" our cities with bombs in the middle of the night.

And for the Roman Empire thing...America is the next Roman Empire. No one else is going for it, and we are the only other group to hold our hands over our hearts when we pledge alligence.

I'm just hoping our next president will at least pay our UN dues (we have never payed them...ever) and at least get on good standing with our allies again. Some major crap is going to go down in our lifetimes, and I just hope America is smart enough not to start it.

Edit: Okay so my real hope (highly improbable) is that people get over their crap and work together to make earth better and get into space. I read a report in the Wall Street Journal the other day that said a majority of trees will be super-saturated with carbon-dioxide in 2025-2030 and will no longer be able to produce oxygen. This won't kill us off instantly, but the more trees we cut down the less oxygen will be produced. I just hope that with this generation will come a leader who pushes the science community into power. We should stop fighting over who's going to hell or not or who has the oil. We should let them have the oil and try to create energy sources that don't require burning anything. Science is what will keep us alive in the next decade, not religion...I guess I'll stop, I'm sure something terrible will happen during my lifetime leading us farther from that ideal Star Trek world I want so bad. I'll shut up now.

Edit: V for Vendetta is a fantastic movie, and whether you are liberal or not I think everyone can appreciate some part of it.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2006, 05:14:03 am by TheShark »

Wow, this makes me realize how long it's been since I was an active user here.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2006, 06:41:26 am »
Forget hands over hearts. America is one of the only countries which actually HAS a pledge off alegiance. If England has one I certainly havent heard it.
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Offline PHI-1618

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2006, 06:56:15 am »
*sighs* I said it tends to take place in smaller countries, not that it HAS to be a small country. But whatever, we're heading off-topic by quite a bit at this point. I don't think it's going to happen, you guys seem to think it's inevitable or highly likely. That's fine. I just fail to see how a country filled with people that can't seem to agree on a damn thing could ever become so unilaterally one-sided as to ever reach this point. And many of the things that you mention are things the government is doing, when people from other countries have this sort of strange idea that what the US government does represents what the American people think or want -- when it often doesn't. And considering the fact that roughly 85% of high school graduates in the US don't know and couldn't give a rat's ass about the Constitution or what it says, I fail to see the legitimacy of your statements regarding it. I would go so far as to say that about that same percentage of Americans of all ages don't know anything about the Constitution other than it's some government thing that people mention on occasion on the news.

So just because special interest groups quote and bitterly protest things as 'constitutional' or 'unconstitutional,' to most of the US what they're talking about is gibberish. And there is an underlying hostility in this country towards our own government. Sure, you have the kiss-asses that wuv Dubya and the extremists that would like to see him gutted, but most of mainstream America doesn't particularly like either side and will put up with their crap only so much. Which is why we tend to trade political parties so often. Sure, we'll give Democrats a chance for one or two terms, but we'll ordinarily follow them up with Republicans, and vice versa. Why? Because we're fairly disinterested with any one particular side. And this flip-flopping mentality to me belies what is needed for a fascist government -- consistency of thought and expression. And at the foundation of the US, I don't see that it exists.

That could change. But I don't see it happening, at least not anytime soon.

And some rough figures regarding geography and size, which I mentioned the last time:

GERMANY [2006]
Total Area:   137,858 miČ
Population:   82,515,988

UNITED STATES [2006]
Total Area:   3,718,711 miČ
Population:   298,290,000

True, these aren't representative of the time period of fascist Germany, but the difference in geographical and population size is still pretty major. If you can provide the numbers of fascist Germany, I would really appreciate it for the sake of that debate.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2006, 09:21:02 am »
Back to small countries eh?
Russia. China.

Its not actually fascism but its nationalism and dictatorship just the same.
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Offline PHI-1618

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2006, 11:04:39 am »
Back to small countries eh?
Russia. China.

Its not actually fascism but its nationalism and dictatorship just the same.
My point remains the same: To have fascism requires hegemonic control over the entire population of a country. And there is no army big enough to maintain that level of control over a place as big as the United States. It's too big and has too large a population. But again, we're skirting around the fact that V for Vendetta is quite a good flick. :)

Offline Aybraus

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2006, 11:09:02 am »
...I like Germany.
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2006, 02:49:25 pm »
Back to small countries eh?
Russia. China.

Its not actually fascism but its nationalism and dictatorship just the same.
My point remains the same: To have fascism requires hegemonic control over the entire population of a country. And there is no army big enough to maintain that level of control over a place as big as the United States. It's too big and has too large a population. But again, we're skirting around the fact that V for Vendetta is quite a good flick. :)
You dont need the army. You just need anal bastards who like to kiss the leader's arse.
The sort of people who write to the local newspapers about the state of their neighbors lawn soon rise to the top in a society like that.
China is the worlds largest country, they keep the populace down by manipulating the media and getting people to turn each other in.
Size matters not ;).
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline PHI-1618

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2006, 08:21:22 am »
Back to small countries eh?
Russia. China.

Its not actually fascism but its nationalism and dictatorship just the same.
My point remains the same: To have fascism requires hegemonic control over the entire population of a country. And there is no army big enough to maintain that level of control over a place as big as the United States. It's too big and has too large a population. But again, we're skirting around the fact that V for Vendetta is quite a good flick. :)
You dont need the army. You just need anal bastards who like to kiss the leader's arse.
The sort of people who write to the local newspapers about the state of their neighbors lawn soon rise to the top in a society like that.
China is the worlds largest country, they keep the populace down by manipulating the media and getting people to turn each other in.
Size matters not ;).
Yes, but there aren't enough anal bastards who like to kiss the leader's ass in the States at any given time. Even when a president is in good popularity, he (or someday she) still hardly ever breaks over 65% approval rating -- and approval and being willing to kiss someone's ass are two different things. Speaking of people who turn you in for minor infractions of manner or whatnot ... I lived in Japan for a year. And my neighbors would watch me constantly. I would take my properly sorted trash out to the street corner where it was collected, and I would look around and there would be people watching me, scrutinizing me, out their windows. It was unnerving as hell. And I felt like that a lot of the time, like I was being surveillanced the whole time.

And I looked up the world's largest country and it isn't China. China is actually described by the CIA World Factbook as being 'slightly smaller' than the US. If you mean in population, that's a different story. But to compare the two side by side isn't reasonable, as that means you'd be ignoring some massive social differences between the two countries -- e.g. group mentality vs. individualism, etc. And that comments on my earlier statements that for a fascist government to truly exist, it requires control --- and that control can only exist in countries relatively small in size or with a strong and unified philosophy, religion, etc -- a fundamentalist condition if you will. [Anyone who has played Civilization II knows what Fundamentalism is.]

And did I mention this was a good movie?  ;)