Author Topic: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?  (Read 9078 times)

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Offline Stromko

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Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« on: April 06, 2005, 11:19:33 am »
The part of the demo dealing with warfare in the Civilization era of the game seems to have been pretty short, or at least that's the idea I get from it(ed: by 'it' I mean the media coverage), but I think Will was quoted as saying vehicles were the main way the different species interacted. Whether you ever build transport vehicles in order to bring your armed foot-soldiers over to the enemy city, I really don't know, don't know if your people will reach for their heavy hand-weapons and try to fight off invading vehicles either.. or if they just mill around / run away as the turrets and vehicles do all the work?

I think the answer to this really depends on whether there is warfare or combat in the Tribe era, as this would mean the game can already handle your people going out with weapons and getting into fights. At that point, it would seem relatively simple to program them to handle 'modern' weapons, as well.

Now to a lot of people who saw the racks of spears that you could set down for your tribeperson, this might seem like a stupid question. But what sign is there that those spears have more of a direct, practical function than the drums do? Perhaps the spears have no purpose whatsoever except to bring to fore your species' aggressive instincts and thus make their nascent culture more warlike? In other words, do we have any evidence so far that shows the primitive tribes-era weapons are anything but aesthetic tokens?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2005, 11:26:47 am by Stromko »



Offline craigp

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2005, 12:27:38 pm »
In the tribal era it was pretty clear, although not explicitly stated, that the spears were functional weapons. He certainly talked about warring with other tribes.

But in the city era, it was pretty clear that your citizens cower helplessly in their buildings while they get bombarded. I do not think that your tribal weaponry translates to the city stage.

-Craig

Offline Therlun

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2005, 01:31:58 pm »
i dont know if it is included in the later area, but isnt individual combat already present in the "firt step on land" area?
where you unt other specias, and can fight with them.
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Offline WeltallZero

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2005, 02:09:24 pm »
Stromko makes a good point, and I'm glad that craigp confirms that Will mentioned tribal combat. However, if combat information seems sparse, just look at diplomacy, which we know nothing about! Being a huge Star Control 2 fan, and one thing I see in Spore being the ultimate Star Control game, I'm interested in diplomacy at least as much as in combat. Will it be possible to enlist other species (both soldiers and vehicles) to bolster your ranks? Trade technology with them? Probably not, but hey, one can wish.

Offline craigp

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2005, 02:48:39 pm »
Weltall: it almost certainly won't be possible to trade technologies with them, since by the time you get to see them, you're in an advanced spacecraft... and they aren't allowed to be. By definition, they'll almost certainly be behind you in technology anyway.

-Craig

Offline WeltallZero

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2005, 10:50:38 pm »
Weltall: it almost certainly won't be possible to trade technologies with them, since by the time you get to see them, you're in an advanced spacecraft... and they aren't allowed to be. By definition, they'll almost certainly be behind you in technology anyway.

Yeah, that was my thinking too, sadly. Still, I guess we could hope that technology advancements won't be linear but tree-like, and while you've developed the starfaring branch enough, you might've not really advanced that much in, say, food production technology, allowing you to trade some of your more-advanced stuff with some civilization which has hydroponic gardens and stuff. I do realize this is almost guaranteed to be wishful thinking.

Perhaps a much more simplified version of technology trading will be in, though, like directly buying other civilizations' vehicle designs, etc. It may not sound like it's worth it at all... unless designing your own stuff requires resources (much like evolving the original creature required food resources). I'll tack a generic "we'll have to wait and see" here. :D

Offline Stromko

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2005, 10:51:10 pm »
I'm not sure if it's guaranteed that there can't be any other UFO-tech cultures in the UFO era, as this would limit the sort of 'sci fi stories' that we can play out. You can't have Star Trek or Babylon 5 or Star Wars or anything, without multiple species being capable of space travel. You may turn out to be correct however, but only if this last, 'sandbox' phase steps well out of the pattern established by the other eras.

That is to say.. Tidal Pool --> Compete --> Dominate --> Advance = Ocean --> Compete --> Dominate --> Advance, all the way onto the Civ Era at least, where you have other cities that also have buildings and vehicles.

Wasn't there that weird pictograph in the image archive post, wasn't officially Spore AFAIK but it talked about how there are the same dynamics at work in every system, the picture's titled 'Evolve! : Will Wright's Grand Unified Theory'. ( http://img151.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img151&image=evolve2jk.jpg )

That's where I got the idea, and made the realization, that in most every phase of the game you have the same dynamics of competition and ultimately domination. However; as the UFO phase may be the first of the true Sandbox phases, wherein you can just mess around and never work toward an ultimate goal, it may completely diverge from this theorem.

It's important that other cultures do not by their actions draw you away from what you are doing, as I understand it the UFO phase is a sandbox phase where you are allowed to mess around with things at your leisure, but surely there are ways they can introduce the Competition or Cooperation dynamic without being disruptive. Just like every other facet of the species, I'm sure the UFOs that other players create can be transferred right along with their creatures.

I'm not saying every other culture you meet in the UFO phase should have UFOs, far from it, this should be very rare. I'm sure that there will be more primitive cultures of all sorts, from pre-warp to pre-industrial to hunter-gatherer.

Offline craigp

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2005, 07:57:10 am »
Well, I should say that the UFO phase was specifically referred to as the 'sandbox' part of the game several times.

-Craig

Offline Stromko

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2005, 01:28:06 pm »

Looking back through the previews, I'm beginning to wonder how much of what info on Spore was just made up in my mind, since I thought Will Wright once compared the last phase to Master of Orion. This would run counter to the idea that your only ship is the UFO, which I believe is likely, and also run counter to the idea that no one else has space-travel technology, which I don't believe is likely. But actually, I can't find that quote anywhere.

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3138792&did=1
Every other phase is compared to a pre-existing game, but the last phase, which is apparently called the Invasion phase, no comparison is made. The name also suggests that you're just going around taking over the galaxy. Or maybe 1Up just invented the names of these different phases?

I really don't have much ground for saying that other cultures will have UFOs, but I think they should. Some of us are going to find it odd to suddenly be THE most advanced society in the universe once we build a spaceship, to suddenly advance a phase and not have any competition dynamic. Certainly there'll be gameplay either way, it should be a lot of fun to just screw around with other planets and races in a freeform go-anywhere milieu, but for some of us it's just going to be jarring.

It just seems to me that we all want a challenge. It doesn't have to be a really serious challenge, a victory-or-death scenario, but a challenge all the same. Invading fairly advanced, militaristic worlds can still be a challenge, but it might also be neat to have to track down their UFO (there'd probably be a game mechanic to help you find it among the vast cosmos, like a warp detector) and blast it into atoms to stop it from interfering with your plans.

Besides, UFOs are custom, user-made content, just like the creatures, buildings, maybe plants, etc. Why throw away the chances of sharing our cool spaceship designs?

Offline craigp

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2005, 02:32:54 pm »
Why does 'sandbox' equal 'throw away the chances of sharing our cool spaceship designs'?

That said, I don't remember him ever mentioning MOO - which means that it must have REALLY just been in passing, since I would have noticed it otherwise. I think 1up is making up phase names. Although the first are about the normal names, I've never heard the last phase called 'invasion'. There are at least half a dozen 'sandbox' games you can play, most of which replicate EARLY sci-fi, where the aliens have all the power and can fly through space, whereas the humans don't have anything better than a jet.

I think the lesson he learned from The Sims is that people like to make their own stories. In the last phase of the game, you can. Unobstructed. One thing I hate about Sims (and Sims 2) is that, even if I'm just trying to make a story, I always have to take care of the nitty-gritty 'feed and wash' stuff. I'm pretty sure that he's making the last phase totally without any kind of needs or opposition - at least, he's not providing them. He may provide TOOLS for providing them yourself.

So, if you're about telling your own stories, the last phase of the game is all for you. If not, then you're going to just have to settle for the first phases of the game, which I imagine won't take shorter than ten hours. It'll still be a hella fun ten hours.

Good enough for me.

-Craig

Offline Therlun

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2005, 03:47:27 pm »
while there is nothing said about master of orion stylish play, i would too very much miss it if it wasnt in.

i could imagine spending some time playing around with the sandbox part, i even did it with games not directly suitable (like building cities with a history and a special, fictional purpose, in Starcraft. just for the fun of it...)
but how much time can you spend as a god, with nothing challenging you?
how many interesting "stories" can you create with your race having godlike powers in an universe full of ants?

so i really, really hope other races will be able to travel space...  :-\
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Offline craigp

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2005, 03:57:24 pm »
how many interesting "stories" can you create with your race having godlike powers in an universe full of ants?
I dunno. As an occasional scriptwriter, I can attest to at least thirty. :)

-Craig

Offline Therlun

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2005, 04:15:34 pm »
hmpf.. it was more a rethorical question. :P

i just noticed that there are two SC2 avatars. :)
im sure the thraddash culture 23 will be vastly superior! as if the dillrats could truly defeat them...
sorry for being offtopic.   :P
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Offline Stromko

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2005, 01:47:24 am »
im sure the thraddash culture 23 will be vastly superior! as if the dillrats could truly defeat them...

HRARGH HRARGH HRARGH!

War: As for the actual topic of this thread, which I started and hijacked with this UFO thing, it appears we don't have any substantive knowledge of whether there's infantry combat in the Civ phase?, but at least there's pretty solid reason to believe there's war in the tribal phase.

Other's UFOs: I hope we get the best of both worlds, sandbox but a choice to bring about some real competition from other alien empires, either at the start of the game determine how many (Zero to ...) cultures can potentially get UFOs as well, or have it where unless you intentionally piss of another culture their UFOs won't ever venture into your space.

There may be challenges even without this, actually it may be much easier to find that challenge when it's simply a planet-bound culture with anti-air missiles, as then you will know exactly where your prospective opponent is. When your enemy is planetbound, your enemy logically cannot get in the way of your playing, but I hope they can find a way to make other's UFOs equally non-disruptive.

Of course I'm calling other cultures Enemy, because I do plan to make a close approximation of the Thraddash at first opportunity, and since I really really doubt you could have civil wars, they're going to have to prove their Culture's strength through the annihilation of others. ;) Screw those musical tones and light, we're talking Close Encounters of the Flaming Doom kind.

(edit) In The Sims guests can always be ignored if they want to beat the crap out of you or insult you, but they can't cancel any interaction you put upon them; nor can they trap you in a room and starve you to death, nor would they even have that inclination (as far as we know). That's an example of how Maxis has placed greater power on the player than the NPCs in previous games, and limited the AI so that it does nothing truly dastardly. Perhaps belligerent rival UFOs could merely be a nuisance? They would give you a prompt to intervene or investigate, but not force you t even acknowledge them if you're deadset against it.
For instance, they could abduct a few of your people, or hybridize some creatures, or (this is stretching it) uplift a tribal culture and create a minor rival on a planet. None of this is really enough to have any impact on you whatsoever, but enough you may wish to intervene or investigate. Don't want other cultures having UFOs? Fine, track down their home planet and annihilate them.

I doubt they'll add space combat just for the heck of it, so probably UFO -vs- UFO combat would be done in atmospheres. This could be reasoned by saying in space, they could just warp away near-instantly therefore only atmospheric combat is decisive. They've already got UFO vs Ground combat for certain, so UFO vs UFO on a planet shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

Really there's just no way to know how it =will= be, I'm just saying, it would be good if there is the potential of other cultures having UFOs. I think I'll go start a poll that deals specifically with UFO Exclusivity, since I keep diverging off on this stuff Ishouldn't keep going off-topic on other topics, even ones I myself start :P
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 02:37:38 am by Stromko »

Offline Siever

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Re: Civ Era: 100% Vehicular War? Tribe Era: War, at all?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2005, 08:52:28 pm »
Theory 1.  I would just assume that troop combat is still in the civ stage(s), just thinking about it, like why not?

Theory 2.  There is so little info on the game that I cannot assume theory 1.

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