Author Topic: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan  (Read 8984 times)

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Offline LoreAlmighty

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18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« on: January 16, 2006, 01:31:04 am »
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/18_killed_in_U.S._air_strike_on_village_in_Pakistan


So exactly how is America the good guys in the Middle East?



Offline PatMan33

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2006, 08:42:34 am »
What we are doing over there is something that nobody has ever done before.

We go in and eliminate the leaders of the opposition and let the civilians live. Every other time throughout history if you wanted your enemy destroyed you kill their leaders and their population and everything associated with them so there will be no risk of an insurgency or counter attacks or whatever.

Give it time. It will get better.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

And it didn't become Europe in a day either.

Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2006, 03:02:04 pm »
What we are doing over there is something that nobody has ever done before.

How so?  The US has invaded and interviened in the internal politics of nations for decades.  How is it something new?

We go in and eliminate the leaders of the opposition and let the civilians live.

Since when?  The US has slaughtered civilians on dozens of occasions.  Please explain how the US doesn't.

Every other time throughout history if you wanted your enemy destroyed you kill their leaders and their population and everything associated with them so there will be no risk of an insurgency or counter attacks or whatever.

THAT'S what the US does!

Give it time. It will get better.

How?  Every country the US has invaded or interviened in but Japan got much worse. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 08:05:47 pm by Gaming Steve »

Offline syphonbyte

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2006, 04:36:58 pm »
Actually, the United States has made a much larger effort to avoid civilian casualties than any nation in history. In fact, there aren't really any occasions in history that nations tried to avoid killing innocents except during U.S. attacks. Also, a number of countries we've attacked have made substantial progress. Germany has come a long way from the state of destruction they were in after World War II, mostly due to U.S. aid to West Germany. Kuwait has certainly been better off than if Saddam had ruled over it for the past 10 years. South Korea has also been making major strides in recent years and is shaping up to be another Japan if they stay on the right track and don't end up getting nuked by North Korea.

Offline PatMan33

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2006, 05:25:22 pm »
LoreAlmighty, the impact of this war aside, what is your opinion of the United States?

It seems like you are dead set to label the US as a bad guy no matter what we say.

Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2006, 05:26:36 pm »
Actually, the United States has made a much larger effort to avoid civilian casualties than any nation in history. In fact, there aren't really any occasions in history that nations tried to avoid killing innocents except during U.S. attacks.

Hiroshima, Panama and Desdren don't count?

Also, a number of countries we've attacked have made substantial progress.

Other than Japan, which ones?

Germany has come a long way from the state of destruction they were in after World War II, mostly due to U.S. aid to West Germany.

Really?  I thought it was the EC (now the EU) and the fall of the soviet union that united and helped Germany.  The US just kept it split up longer actually.

Kuwait has certainly been better off than if Saddam had ruled over it for the past 10 years.

Under a US approved dictatorship, which is still around.   

South Korea has also been making major strides in recent years and is shaping up to be another Japan if they stay on the right track and don't end up getting nuked by North Korea.

International Trade made it the great nation it is today.  All the US did was aid a series of dictators that were highly curropt after the Korean War.  And they've made peace all on their own with North Korea.

Sorry, I still haven't gotten the name of anothe nation except Japan we've helped.  I can think of many we've made much worse.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 08:06:04 pm by Gaming Steve »

Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2006, 05:29:30 pm »
LoreAlmighty, the impact of this war aside, what is your opinion of the United States?

It seems like you are dead set to label the US as a bad guy no matter what we say.


I never said the US is bad, I just said it's foreign policy is.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 08:06:10 pm by Gaming Steve »

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2006, 05:32:36 pm »
Okay, fair enough.


Would you mind using the "quote" button instead of that yellow text?  :D

Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2006, 05:33:54 pm »
Ok, fair enough.  The yellow is a bit bright.

Offline syphonbyte

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2006, 05:42:59 pm »
Hiroshima, Panama and Desdren don't count?

Hiroshima was conducted to prevent much higher casualties that would certainly have occured had we invaded the Japanese mainland. I don't know why Panama is included in that group, since only 22 Panamans (if that's a word, maybe it's Panamese) died. I don't know what Desdren is and I wasn't able to find anything about it on Wikipedia or Google.


Really?  I thought it was the EC (now the EU) and the fall of the soviet union that united and helped Germany.  The US just kept it split up longer actually.

Germany recovered far before the collapse of the USSR, or at least West Germany did. The Berlin Airlifts weren't conducted for absolutely no reason, and neither was the Marshall Plan, which helped a lot of other countries that both Axis Powers and Allied Powers had destroyed during the war. Anyhow, I don't think the U.S. was the only group keeping Germany from being united. The USSR had a hand in that, too.


Under a US approved dictatorship, which is still around.

A dictatorship is not always evil.


International Trade made it the great nation it is today.  All the US did was aid a series of dictators that were highly curropt after the Korean War.  And they've made peace all on their own with North Korea.

Japan did the exact same thing with International Trade. That doesn't make it any less of a success than South Korea. Singapore did the same thing. So did Hong Kong. Anyhow, I'd hardly call a heavily fortified No-Man's-Land between the Koreas "peace."


Sorry, I still haven't gotten the name of anothe nation except Japan we've helped.  I can think of many we've made much worse.

I actually can't think of any nations that we made worse that weren't already on a heavy decline.

Offline T-BirD

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2006, 05:56:48 pm »
As much as I agree that US foreign policy is utter rubbish for the most part ("exporting democracy at gunpoint?"), Germany was rebuilt largely due to the Marshall plan, and the US forces stationed were no doubt a bit of a deterrent to the Soviets during the cold war.  Plus, German landlords loved the US, since they could charge 3x the rent a German would have been willing to pay, and the US government would pay it without question ;p

As for the list of war atrocities that Lore listed...he misspelled "Dresden" - the city was firebombed, just like several in Japan.

Also, the second bomb dropped on Japan was totally unneccessary - the country was willing to surrender after the first, from all that I've read.

Watch "The Fog of War" - a biography of Robert S. MacNamara - it's a very interesting look at WW2, Korea, and Vietnam.

Offline syphonbyte

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2006, 07:06:21 pm »
Oh, Dresden. Yeah, that was bad on the part of the U.K. and U.S. Like I said, though, we've made a much larger effort than other countries in the past. I don't know about Japan being willing to surrender after the first bomb, I think I read that they were still fighting and thought that it was some sort of one hit wonder deal from the U.S., but I don't remember.

Offline Borogove

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2006, 08:14:31 pm »
The U.S does look kind of bad...until you compare it to anyone else.
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Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2006, 08:28:34 pm »
Hiroshima was conducted to prevent much higher casualties that would certainly have occured had we invaded the Japanese mainland. I don't know why Panama is included in that group, since only 22 Panamans (if that's a word, maybe it's Panamese) died. I don't know what Desdren is and I wasn't able to find anything about it on Wikipedia or Google.

I though there was 3,000 panamonian casualties in the US led invasion.....

Germany recovered far before the collapse of the USSR, or at least West Germany did. The Berlin Airlifts weren't conducted for absolutely no reason, and neither was the Marshall Plan, which helped a lot of other countries that both Axis Powers and Allied Powers had destroyed during the war. Anyhow, I don't think the U.S. was the only group keeping Germany from being united. The USSR had a hand in that, too.

I never said the USSR didn't, but you claim the US had a hand in making the Germany of today, when cleary it didn't.  The wall was set up cause of the allied controlled zones within Europe after world war 2. 

Under a US approved dictatorship, which is still around.

A dictatorship is not always evil.


Uh...http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/kwt-summary-eng

International Trade made it the great nation it is today. �All the US did was aid a series of dictators that were highly curropt after the Korean War. �And they've made peace all on their own with North Korea.

Japan did the exact same thing with International Trade. That doesn't make it any less of a success than South Korea. Singapore did the same thing. So did Hong Kong. Anyhow, I'd hardly call a heavily fortified No-Man's-Land between the Koreas "peace."


You just said the US helped create South Korea into the country it is today yet the US aided a series of unpopular dictatorships there.  They were so unpopular citizens Self-immolation themselfs in protest to it.

Sorry, I still haven't gotten the name of anothe nation except Japan we've helped. �I can think of many we've made much worse.

I actually can't think of any nations that we made worse that weren't already on a heavy decline.


Really, I can think of a whole list of them.  Do you want it?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 08:31:32 pm by Gaming Steve »

Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2006, 08:31:04 pm »
Here's a list of countries the US has helped....



* In 1898, the USA invaded Cuba, under completely false pretenses. They claimed that the Spanish government there was opressing people, but these stories were actually fabricated by yellow journalists, such as William Randolph Hearst. After the end of the Spanish American War, the US installed a series of dictators, which eventually led to a US Backed coup led by Fulgencio Batista, whose regime was extremely opressive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Randolph_Hearst

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish-American_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista




* In 1909, the USA invaded Nicaragua, and after many years of occupation and intervening in it's internal affairs, it left Anastasio Somoza García as dictator in 1936. He and his family murdered thousands of their own citizens, many of whose only crimes were being members of families that formerly opposed him in years preceeding the US intervention. Despite this, the USA considered the Somoza family to be "a source of stability and anti-communism". The last one, Anastasio Somoza Debayle was infamous for his brutality. Following a series of civil wars, Daniel Ortega was elected, democratically, in 1985. Though he posed no threat to the USA, Reagan launched a secret war against Nicaragua with the use of the Contras, which pillaged villages and murdered anyone who wold not side with Reagan. Reagan referred to them as "freedom fighters", despite the fact that they were actually paid mercenaries, who were promised money and property in exchange for a successful coup.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasio_Somoza_Garc%C3%ADa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ortega


* 1953: U.S. overthrows The Democratically elected Prime Minister Mossadegh of Iran. His Crime was attempting to nationalize Iran's Oil industry -- to emulate what the Saudis had done. The American and British oil companies had literally controled the government of Iran to the extent that they made their laws. Iranians were outraged, and tried to take back their own country, but unfortunately, the US army put a stop to that. The U.S. installed the Shah as dictator, who created a secret police force, called SAVAK, infamous for its ruthless persecution and systematic torture of dissidents.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossadegh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Reza_Shah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK


* 1954: U.S. overthrows democratically elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians are killed. Arbenz's crime was actually holding meetings with Communist dissidents, and working out a land reform program that both the communists and government would be able to tolerate. The program would have divided up land among poverty-stricken peasants. The United Fruit Company, however, was not willing to give up any of the land (which admittedly they did not use -- they only used up about 25% of the land they controlled). According to international law, fair compensation must be given for nationalized foreign holdings. The company was paid $600,000 based on land values it had declared for tax purposes. But they did not want to give up the land, and instead, asked the USA to help. The CIA sponsored a coup d'état, and installed a series of dictators, who ruined the country, and created decades of civil war.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbenz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemalan_Labor_Party

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castillo_Armas


* 1963 - 1975: U.S. backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem, following many years of supporting him as a dictator. The US paid him to keep communists at bay, but being a Catholic, he also thought he'd do GOD'S WORK, and so he began butchering Buddhists!  This led to the CIA eventually having him assassinated, because America would not tolerate what he did to buddhist monks. As a result, the Vietnam war started, and the USA committed lots of attrocities during it. The Vietnam War, supported by the U.S. military, kills an est. 4 million people in Southeast Asia.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_Diem#Coup_and_assassination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre




1973*  The US stages Coup in Chile.  Democratically elected President Salvador Allende assasinated.  Augusto Pinochet installed leading to the death and disapperence of 200,000 chileans.  Augusto Pinochet was backed by the US, and was one of the worst dictators since Hitler.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_FUBELT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Letelier








* 1981: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador.  75,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns are killed.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mozote_massacre



*1998 The US bombed a chemical weapons factory in Sudan, or so we thought.  The plant ended up just being an asprin factory, which was vital to the Malarya infection in the area.  The bombing of it condemned hundreds of Sudanese to their deaths from otherwise curable diseases.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_pharmaceutical_factory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach



Offline Golgrig

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2006, 08:39:00 pm »
U.S. foriegn policy sucks..... our first president tried his best for isolationism but look where we are today.....

the reason we suck so much since WWII is the economic war for oil which drove every foriegn policy since.
we atleast managed to help out Britian, France, and Frm Spanish holdings

a catalog of mistakes is a long list
but atleast "it could be worse" we didn't exterminate a Million people "yet" i hope.
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2006, 08:41:36 pm »
Are you an anarchist?

Do you have anything positive to say about America?

I would make another topic about it but thats a waste of space.


I'm just wondering.  ;)

Offline Golgrig

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2006, 08:46:41 pm »
who me? oh you mean LoreAlmighty ...... atleat he tried to back up his arguement.. and "Anarchist" carries so many negative conotations.. as does "communist" which is what you'd call people a generation ago.



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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2006, 08:49:04 pm »
Yeah I was thinking about changing that... "anarchist" is a tad rough... but it was all I could think of.

Still... he seems to carry an Anti-American slant...

Yeah we have made some mistakes and done some really bad things but we have done so many good things for the world too...

Offline happydan20

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2006, 08:49:26 pm »
i dont see why we all have to be like bush and see everything in right or wrong black and white.  This is the kind of thing we shouild encourage.  Someone has an opinion and they back it up.

We love to pretend america is some saint on the world stage but the truth is america is just as dirty as any other country.

I dont think america is any better or worse than other countries in policy.

look at iraq, to pretend that had something more to do than oil and family revenge is in my opinion daft.  
we have secret prisons, filled with people that have never had a day in court, a patriot act designed to operate outside of the court systems, even the special ones designed for sensitive information.  History will look back on this time in america as a black eye, or at least thats what I think.
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2006, 08:51:45 pm »
I am not sure if it is true (I can look it up tomorrow) but I heard that Saddam Hussein's Uncle who raised him sided with the Nazis back in World War II and that most of the problems that we have had over there have been an offshoot from World War II.

Thats what I heard.

Offline Golgrig

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2006, 08:56:11 pm »
Freedom means the right to defend your opinion be it pro or anti- system

I love my country and i respect the armed forces, and if it came to it I'd die to protect every one of my fellow pointy headed citizens, but... i absolutly detest the current government.

bush's great grampapie was supporting those %^*%*% in The Reich but i for one hope they understant that the past is history
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Offline Vivec

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2006, 08:57:23 pm »
Freedom means the right to defend your opinion be it pro or anti- system

I love my country and i respect the armed forces, and if it came to it I'd die to protect every one of my fellow pointy headed citizens, but... i absolutly detest the current government.

bush's great grampapie was supporting those %^*%*% in The Reich but i for one hope they understant that the past is history

I'm sorry, what?  ???
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2006, 09:00:36 pm »
Heh... calm down there buddy!

Granted the current administration has not been the  best but give them some credit. Some pretty horrible things have happened to America while they were in office and they were decisive in their decisions (They may not have been the best decisions) and you have to give them credit for not throwing in the towel.

Still... they could have done things better.


Atleast Kerry didn't win.


 ;D

Offline Golgrig

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2006, 09:01:49 pm »
Freedom means the right to defend your opinion be it pro or anti- system

I love my country and i respect the armed forces, and if it came to it I'd die to protect every one of my fellow pointy headed citizens, but... i absolutly detest the current government.

I'm sorry, what?  ???

"pointy headed"  down right stupid ignorant dim witted #$%$.....
I might not like a person but i'll defend to the death their rights....

there are 4 people posting at once obviously this hit a cord
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 09:05:15 pm by golgrig »
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Offline Vivec

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2006, 09:13:26 pm »
"pointy headed"  down right stupid ignorant dim witted #$%$.....
I might not like a person but i'll defend to the death their rights....

Oh, ok. Just making sure you aren't an alien.  :)
Vivec, you're the best forum member ever.

Offline Golgrig

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2006, 09:21:59 pm »
How would you react if I told you that I'm not from Guildford after all, but from a small planet somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse?

but thats beside the point... I love every American "Bless their Black hearts and frail minds"
and i know how bad the government could get
so i'm doing my part to make sure we stay alive and semi-democratic
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Offline T-BirD

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2006, 09:28:23 pm »
Vivec - a large part of the Bush family fortune was made by selling weapons to Germany before and during WW2.  I'm guessing that's what you were "I'm sorry, what?"ing about.

As for Patman - yeah, 9/11 happened, and the administration thought "holy cow!  we can get away with anything now while the population's terrified!"  Invading Iraq was on the agenda years before they came into power (look up "Project for a New American Century" and check out some of the people who signed it).

Funny how not too long ago, bin Laden and Saddam were buddies of the USA.  Of course, after the first Gulf War, the US established a base or two on "holy ground" in Saudi Arabia...and brought with it indecency (un-veiled women...and soldiers no less!) and moral excess (hollywood, etc) according to strict muslim traditions - which is about when osama seemed to get fed up with his former allies in this country...

Dunno what exactly happened in the first Gulf War, but I'm imagining that perhaps Bush 1 might've sensed the anarchy that would ensue if Saddam were removed from power.  Perhaps I'm just being naive though and they had other reasons for not finishing him off then.

In a very small way, I'm glad Kerry didn't win....cuz now W has to figure out a way to clean up his own mess instead of having someone do it for him.

Offline Vivec

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2006, 09:29:56 pm »
Vivec - a large part of the Bush family fortune was made by selling weapons to Germany before and during WW2.  I'm guessing that's what you were "I'm sorry, what?"ing about.

No, I said that because I didn't know what "pointed headed american citizens" meant.
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Offline Mr. Wizard

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2006, 09:32:16 pm »
Okay, Lore's as biased as any religious fanatic. Not a bad thing, just pointing it out.  :D Stop creating these threads so you have a place to preach your ideology. Just make a thread directly about it and be done with it! ;)

1. Wow, The U.S. has performed atrocities. Nothing new. What do you want us to do about it? Dissolve the country? Ship ourselves off to some foreign county in chains so we can be punished? The government has different priorities than the people, even in a democracy. During the time when many of those atrocities occurred, it was during the cold war. The U.S used the excuse of the USSR and the "red threat" to do many seriously heinous things. Was it right or even justified? No. The government was terrified of the USSR, needlessly, because the USSR couldn't survive long under its system. U.S planners didn't and couldn't have known that. So we get a bunch of panic decisions, which we are just going to have to clean up. :-\

2. Before that, Racism and Manifest Destiny was the reason behind the yellow journalists own stories, and they made a killing off of sales. Remember, the CIA wasn't formed until 1947, so the government wasn't always all that well informed(not that they're well informed now, mind you, but it is a bit better) about world events.

3. With the communists gone, the U.S had no enemies, well, other than the ones we created. Which naturally resurfaced, and now we are "cleaning up". Unfortunately, the CIA didn't get the memo entitled "USSR Gone! You don't need to create false documents to justify wars any longer!" and the current war happened. Although (and this is pure speculation here) I think that Bush wanted those false documents made because he wanted a reason to go after Iraq, after he already got Afghanistan handed to him by Osama bin Laden.

4. The best way to help the situation is with votes, and to get people voting, even if you don't like either candidate, It has always been my policy to vote for the one who would have affected more lives in a positive way...<.<....>.>... Unfortunately, the Republican conspiracy has been fixing the elections!...<.<...>.>... and Karl Rove is an arse....<.<...>.>...*Ahem* It is my opinion that a larger  percentage of Americans "disagree with" (read as 'hate') Bush's administration, but because of a phenomena known as "social delegation of responsibility" (not exactly the term, but close enough) where in a large group of people, an individual will think, "some one else will do something about it."
And if enough people think that way, nothing gets done.

Katrina was the death nail for Bush, lets just hope we can shake the american people out of their political apathy.

Offline Borogove

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2006, 09:41:28 pm »
Ok. You think the way things are being done is bad.  Well, you're probably right.

What would you change about American foreign policy?  That's really a much more important and interesting discussion than the history of stuff you don't like about the U.S.
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Offline Golgrig

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2006, 09:50:44 pm »
Crash course us to energy independence.....ha ha ha!
actually recognize the economics of a global market instead of legislating it....ha ha ha!


but seriously what about the dead Pakistanis do they care do they matter or do they become statistics?
12 miners in America or 18+ innocents in Pakistan?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 09:57:18 pm by golgrig »
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Offline syphonbyte

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2006, 10:01:56 pm »
List of countries the U.S. has helped:

http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec28.pdf

Page 12.

One problem with U.S. foreign policy is that nobody in the government is united behind one idea, so we end up with different people controlling the government at different times, which causes changes in foreign policy every decade or so, which is quite fast, relatively speaking. That's one of the reasons that we end up with atrocities; because one group acts without telling anybody else, and they just go off and kill people. My Lai, anybody?

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2006, 12:47:22 am »
Yeah I was thinking about changing that... "anarchist" is a tad rough... but it was all I could think of.

Still... he seems to carry an Anti-American slant...

Yeah we have made some mistakes and done some really bad things but we have done so many good things for the world too...

I'd say hes just naive... its the way the world works, get used to it ;)
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2006, 04:23:00 am »
I'm going to interject one comment. It's easy for any of us to sit back and criticize our President and our government and complain about the decisions that are made but none of us know what his life is like and what he has to deal with on a daily basis. I would not want his job or have to make the decisions he makes.  Unless you are walking in his shoes and have the information he is he is given on a daily basis, how can you say what would have been a better choice?

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2006, 04:36:45 am »
I'm curious if the nay-sayers would compare and contrast the USA's actions over the last 230years to those actions of other powerful nations over the same time frame. The USA has less ability to hide what they do due to the way we are setup with our freedoms. So, how do countries like France, England, Russian (or the soviet Union before them), Germany (in almost any of its forms), China, Japan, Spain, etc... compare in track record?

Should we narrow it down some? The USA has the largest military budget of any nation in the world. Second place is France. Why would that be do you think? hmmm

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2006, 05:09:41 am »
The overall attitude of the American Government is somewhat outdated. maybe because it is a "younger" country. In the days of the colonies and the British empire it was "acceptable" to massacre ethnic minorities and steal their oil and their land, today it isnt. It may take a while but eventually people will realise that invading places causes trouble. In the mean time i dont particularly think they are doing a bad job of what theyre doing, but it could have been handled better on all sides at the start.
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Interitus

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2006, 01:31:17 pm »
I'm curious if the nay-sayers would compare and contrast the USA's actions over the last 230years to those actions of other powerful nations over the same time frame. The USA has less ability to hide what they do due to the way we are setup with our freedoms. So, how do countries like France, England, Russian (or the soviet Union before them), Germany (in almost any of its forms), China, Japan, Spain, etc... compare in track record?

Should we narrow it down some? The USA has the largest military budget of any nation in the world. Second place is France. Why would that be do you think? hmmm

-Lego


But you can't justify it by saying they got to kill X million amount of people, we should too.

The overall attitude of the American Government is somewhat outdated. maybe because it is a "younger" country. In the days of the colonies and the British empire it was "acceptable" to massacre ethnic minorities and steal their oil and their land, today it isnt. It may take a while but eventually people will realise that invading places causes trouble. In the mean time i dont particularly think they are doing a bad job of what theyre doing, but it could have been handled better on all sides at the start.

No, the American government isn't outdated, it's broken. Having only two parties destroys any form of government. It's one or the other.



And to the actual topic of Pakistan, here's something to chew on. Where do terrorists come from? Perhaps from innocent people who lost their families from a US airstrike. I have a feeling mistakes like that have the potential to be much more deadly.
My karma ran over your dogma


Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2006, 01:35:04 pm »
England basically has a two party system and it isnt too broken. As soon as any party comes to power it tends to slowly shift towards being Center-right :P
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2006, 01:35:14 pm »
Normally I would, but I'm not getting into this discussion. It's moving too fast for me to get into.

Also, I'm am dumbfounded at how much of a prik LoreAlmighty can be.

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