Author Topic: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan  (Read 8991 times)

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Offline LoreAlmighty

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18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« on: January 16, 2006, 01:31:04 am »
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/18_killed_in_U.S._air_strike_on_village_in_Pakistan


So exactly how is America the good guys in the Middle East?



Offline PatMan33

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2006, 08:42:34 am »
What we are doing over there is something that nobody has ever done before.

We go in and eliminate the leaders of the opposition and let the civilians live. Every other time throughout history if you wanted your enemy destroyed you kill their leaders and their population and everything associated with them so there will be no risk of an insurgency or counter attacks or whatever.

Give it time. It will get better.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

And it didn't become Europe in a day either.

Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2006, 03:02:04 pm »
What we are doing over there is something that nobody has ever done before.

How so?  The US has invaded and interviened in the internal politics of nations for decades.  How is it something new?

We go in and eliminate the leaders of the opposition and let the civilians live.

Since when?  The US has slaughtered civilians on dozens of occasions.  Please explain how the US doesn't.

Every other time throughout history if you wanted your enemy destroyed you kill their leaders and their population and everything associated with them so there will be no risk of an insurgency or counter attacks or whatever.

THAT'S what the US does!

Give it time. It will get better.

How?  Every country the US has invaded or interviened in but Japan got much worse. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 08:05:47 pm by Gaming Steve »

Offline syphonbyte

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2006, 04:36:58 pm »
Actually, the United States has made a much larger effort to avoid civilian casualties than any nation in history. In fact, there aren't really any occasions in history that nations tried to avoid killing innocents except during U.S. attacks. Also, a number of countries we've attacked have made substantial progress. Germany has come a long way from the state of destruction they were in after World War II, mostly due to U.S. aid to West Germany. Kuwait has certainly been better off than if Saddam had ruled over it for the past 10 years. South Korea has also been making major strides in recent years and is shaping up to be another Japan if they stay on the right track and don't end up getting nuked by North Korea.

Offline PatMan33

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2006, 05:25:22 pm »
LoreAlmighty, the impact of this war aside, what is your opinion of the United States?

It seems like you are dead set to label the US as a bad guy no matter what we say.

Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2006, 05:26:36 pm »
Actually, the United States has made a much larger effort to avoid civilian casualties than any nation in history. In fact, there aren't really any occasions in history that nations tried to avoid killing innocents except during U.S. attacks.

Hiroshima, Panama and Desdren don't count?

Also, a number of countries we've attacked have made substantial progress.

Other than Japan, which ones?

Germany has come a long way from the state of destruction they were in after World War II, mostly due to U.S. aid to West Germany.

Really?  I thought it was the EC (now the EU) and the fall of the soviet union that united and helped Germany.  The US just kept it split up longer actually.

Kuwait has certainly been better off than if Saddam had ruled over it for the past 10 years.

Under a US approved dictatorship, which is still around.   

South Korea has also been making major strides in recent years and is shaping up to be another Japan if they stay on the right track and don't end up getting nuked by North Korea.

International Trade made it the great nation it is today.  All the US did was aid a series of dictators that were highly curropt after the Korean War.  And they've made peace all on their own with North Korea.

Sorry, I still haven't gotten the name of anothe nation except Japan we've helped.  I can think of many we've made much worse.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 08:06:04 pm by Gaming Steve »

Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2006, 05:29:30 pm »
LoreAlmighty, the impact of this war aside, what is your opinion of the United States?

It seems like you are dead set to label the US as a bad guy no matter what we say.


I never said the US is bad, I just said it's foreign policy is.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 08:06:10 pm by Gaming Steve »

Offline PatMan33

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2006, 05:32:36 pm »
Okay, fair enough.


Would you mind using the "quote" button instead of that yellow text?  :D

Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2006, 05:33:54 pm »
Ok, fair enough.  The yellow is a bit bright.

Offline syphonbyte

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2006, 05:42:59 pm »
Hiroshima, Panama and Desdren don't count?

Hiroshima was conducted to prevent much higher casualties that would certainly have occured had we invaded the Japanese mainland. I don't know why Panama is included in that group, since only 22 Panamans (if that's a word, maybe it's Panamese) died. I don't know what Desdren is and I wasn't able to find anything about it on Wikipedia or Google.


Really? I thought it was the EC (now the EU) and the fall of the soviet union that united and helped Germany. The US just kept it split up longer actually.

Germany recovered far before the collapse of the USSR, or at least West Germany did. The Berlin Airlifts weren't conducted for absolutely no reason, and neither was the Marshall Plan, which helped a lot of other countries that both Axis Powers and Allied Powers had destroyed during the war. Anyhow, I don't think the U.S. was the only group keeping Germany from being united. The USSR had a hand in that, too.


Under a US approved dictatorship, which is still around.

A dictatorship is not always evil.


International Trade made it the great nation it is today. All the US did was aid a series of dictators that were highly curropt after the Korean War. And they've made peace all on their own with North Korea.

Japan did the exact same thing with International Trade. That doesn't make it any less of a success than South Korea. Singapore did the same thing. So did Hong Kong. Anyhow, I'd hardly call a heavily fortified No-Man's-Land between the Koreas "peace."


Sorry, I still haven't gotten the name of anothe nation except Japan we've helped. I can think of many we've made much worse.

I actually can't think of any nations that we made worse that weren't already on a heavy decline.

Offline T-BirD

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2006, 05:56:48 pm »
As much as I agree that US foreign policy is utter rubbish for the most part ("exporting democracy at gunpoint?"), Germany was rebuilt largely due to the Marshall plan, and the US forces stationed were no doubt a bit of a deterrent to the Soviets during the cold war.  Plus, German landlords loved the US, since they could charge 3x the rent a German would have been willing to pay, and the US government would pay it without question ;p

As for the list of war atrocities that Lore listed...he misspelled "Dresden" - the city was firebombed, just like several in Japan.

Also, the second bomb dropped on Japan was totally unneccessary - the country was willing to surrender after the first, from all that I've read.

Watch "The Fog of War" - a biography of Robert S. MacNamara - it's a very interesting look at WW2, Korea, and Vietnam.

Offline syphonbyte

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2006, 07:06:21 pm »
Oh, Dresden. Yeah, that was bad on the part of the U.K. and U.S. Like I said, though, we've made a much larger effort than other countries in the past. I don't know about Japan being willing to surrender after the first bomb, I think I read that they were still fighting and thought that it was some sort of one hit wonder deal from the U.S., but I don't remember.

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2006, 08:14:31 pm »
The U.S does look kind of bad...until you compare it to anyone else.
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Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2006, 08:28:34 pm »
Hiroshima was conducted to prevent much higher casualties that would certainly have occured had we invaded the Japanese mainland. I don't know why Panama is included in that group, since only 22 Panamans (if that's a word, maybe it's Panamese) died. I don't know what Desdren is and I wasn't able to find anything about it on Wikipedia or Google.

I though there was 3,000 panamonian casualties in the US led invasion.....

Germany recovered far before the collapse of the USSR, or at least West Germany did. The Berlin Airlifts weren't conducted for absolutely no reason, and neither was the Marshall Plan, which helped a lot of other countries that both Axis Powers and Allied Powers had destroyed during the war. Anyhow, I don't think the U.S. was the only group keeping Germany from being united. The USSR had a hand in that, too.

I never said the USSR didn't, but you claim the US had a hand in making the Germany of today, when cleary it didn't.  The wall was set up cause of the allied controlled zones within Europe after world war 2. 

Under a US approved dictatorship, which is still around.

A dictatorship is not always evil.


Uh...http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/kwt-summary-eng

International Trade made it the great nation it is today. �All the US did was aid a series of dictators that were highly curropt after the Korean War. �And they've made peace all on their own with North Korea.

Japan did the exact same thing with International Trade. That doesn't make it any less of a success than South Korea. Singapore did the same thing. So did Hong Kong. Anyhow, I'd hardly call a heavily fortified No-Man's-Land between the Koreas "peace."


You just said the US helped create South Korea into the country it is today yet the US aided a series of unpopular dictatorships there.  They were so unpopular citizens Self-immolation themselfs in protest to it.

Sorry, I still haven't gotten the name of anothe nation except Japan we've helped. �I can think of many we've made much worse.

I actually can't think of any nations that we made worse that weren't already on a heavy decline.


Really, I can think of a whole list of them.  Do you want it?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 08:31:32 pm by Gaming Steve »

Offline LoreAlmighty

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Re: 18 killed in U.S. air strike on village in Pakistan
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2006, 08:31:04 pm »
Here's a list of countries the US has helped....



* In 1898, the USA invaded Cuba, under completely false pretenses. They claimed that the Spanish government there was opressing people, but these stories were actually fabricated by yellow journalists, such as William Randolph Hearst. After the end of the Spanish American War, the US installed a series of dictators, which eventually led to a US Backed coup led by Fulgencio Batista, whose regime was extremely opressive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Randolph_Hearst

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish-American_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista




* In 1909, the USA invaded Nicaragua, and after many years of occupation and intervening in it's internal affairs, it left Anastasio Somoza García as dictator in 1936. He and his family murdered thousands of their own citizens, many of whose only crimes were being members of families that formerly opposed him in years preceeding the US intervention. Despite this, the USA considered the Somoza family to be "a source of stability and anti-communism". The last one, Anastasio Somoza Debayle was infamous for his brutality. Following a series of civil wars, Daniel Ortega was elected, democratically, in 1985. Though he posed no threat to the USA, Reagan launched a secret war against Nicaragua with the use of the Contras, which pillaged villages and murdered anyone who wold not side with Reagan. Reagan referred to them as "freedom fighters", despite the fact that they were actually paid mercenaries, who were promised money and property in exchange for a successful coup.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasio_Somoza_Garc%C3%ADa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ortega


* 1953: U.S. overthrows The Democratically elected Prime Minister Mossadegh of Iran. His Crime was attempting to nationalize Iran's Oil industry -- to emulate what the Saudis had done. The American and British oil companies had literally controled the government of Iran to the extent that they made their laws. Iranians were outraged, and tried to take back their own country, but unfortunately, the US army put a stop to that. The U.S. installed the Shah as dictator, who created a secret police force, called SAVAK, infamous for its ruthless persecution and systematic torture of dissidents.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossadegh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Reza_Shah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK


* 1954: U.S. overthrows democratically elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians are killed. Arbenz's crime was actually holding meetings with Communist dissidents, and working out a land reform program that both the communists and government would be able to tolerate. The program would have divided up land among poverty-stricken peasants. The United Fruit Company, however, was not willing to give up any of the land (which admittedly they did not use -- they only used up about 25% of the land they controlled). According to international law, fair compensation must be given for nationalized foreign holdings. The company was paid $600,000 based on land values it had declared for tax purposes. But they did not want to give up the land, and instead, asked the USA to help. The CIA sponsored a coup d'état, and installed a series of dictators, who ruined the country, and created decades of civil war.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbenz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemalan_Labor_Party

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castillo_Armas


* 1963 - 1975: U.S. backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem, following many years of supporting him as a dictator. The US paid him to keep communists at bay, but being a Catholic, he also thought he'd do GOD'S WORK, and so he began butchering Buddhists!  This led to the CIA eventually having him assassinated, because America would not tolerate what he did to buddhist monks. As a result, the Vietnam war started, and the USA committed lots of attrocities during it. The Vietnam War, supported by the U.S. military, kills an est. 4 million people in Southeast Asia.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_Diem#Coup_and_assassination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre




1973*  The US stages Coup in Chile.  Democratically elected President Salvador Allende assasinated.  Augusto Pinochet installed leading to the death and disapperence of 200,000 chileans.  Augusto Pinochet was backed by the US, and was one of the worst dictators since Hitler.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_FUBELT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Letelier








* 1981: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador.  75,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns are killed.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mozote_massacre



*1998 The US bombed a chemical weapons factory in Sudan, or so we thought.  The plant ended up just being an asprin factory, which was vital to the Malarya infection in the area.  The bombing of it condemned hundreds of Sudanese to their deaths from otherwise curable diseases.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_pharmaceutical_factory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach