Author Topic: 2016 Election  (Read 93560 times)

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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2070 on: November 10, 2016, 12:51:49 am »
The arts of winning/losing gracefully was lost when everyone started getting a trophy for being special.

Don't kid yourself that people were any better than this in the past.

You hear this nature of complaint from people (usually the winning side), almost every time there's an election or referendum. Well, if people are allowed to be upset when their sports team loses then I think they're entitled to vent their frustrations when something that really affects the destinies of them and everyone they care about happens and it doesn't go their way.

Trump's base aren't the only people who essentially get robbed of their representation in these flawed systems. What about the almost 50% of Floridans who didn't want Trump? Guess they'd better just bite the pillow and stop whining? Nobody needs to be happy with a president or a Brexit they didn't vote for. They have to respect their legal status (if any) and obey the laws of their country, but they don't have to like it and they certainly don't have to take it gracefully.

Also I think both Hillary's concession announcement and Trump's speech were actually pretty reasonable given the tone of the campaign thus far.
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Offline Haseri

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2071 on: November 10, 2016, 03:23:38 am »
I'm one of those people who live in a bubble, I know that. My feed was full of anger and there was no issue at work at making glib comments about the election (apparently we weren't allowed to talk about Brexit but the referendum was on my second day, so I didn't know. I think I only made a joke about ticking the right box). The world I live in also means I have what is probably a disproportionate amount of LGBT+ friends.

And they are pretty damn worried about Pence. Everything I've read about him amounts to a terrible human being. This is a man who, if he got his own way, would have people like my friends subjected to conversion therapy. Would restrict access to abortion or get rid of it completely. As my brother said, why the hell is it even an issue? (I know the basics, I don''t need a lecture)

He's picked Myron Ebell to handle the EPA - Breibart's headline says 'The Left Lost The War On Climate Change' - the ones fighting against it you utter ****ing ****s. He is not surrounding himself with good people.

But what really hit home for me was a blog post from an American friend of mine. She volunteers at a domestic abuse centre, and you can imagine what she sees. At a support group yesterday, a woman said “My husband just got elected President.” It's not just the Access Hollywood tape. It's the dozen or so women who came forward accusing him of abuse. It's the disparaging remarks to women who question him, reducing them to a jumble of body parts. It's the creepy statements he's made to children at beauty pageants.

Who knows, this might not be a disaster. Maybe he'll U-turn on everything he said - his acceptance speech didn't sound like him - a coherent human being instead of a human Markov chain. Maybe he'll put sensible people in positions of power, Republicans that people might have been OK with. The world survived 2 terms of Bush Jr, and we might only get 1 term of Trump. Basically half if people mobilise for the mid-terms. I do have this feeling that it'll be like Reagan - it could be great for now, but we'll be paying for it in a generation.

Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2072 on: November 10, 2016, 05:33:53 am »
I've got a pretty wide net of friends with a lot of different opinions. This outcome is certainly unexpected, but I guess I wasn't living in that bubble some of you are mentioning.

It seems like a lot of very smart people have been reminded that their opinions aren't necessarily the only ones or the right ones. And it seems like they've been burnt a bit by being so willing to get into other people's business and preach morality. Surprise surprise, it pisses people off when you're a preachy, smug **** to them. There is a restlessness amidst the youth but lashing out and trying to clamp down on your opposition is not a winning strategy as we have seen.

An open hand is required moving forward. I  have my doubts that the left will be able to muster this, but I am hopeful. Meanwhile, the right needs to keep moving along with what has so far been a pretty graceful victory.

The left got smacked back down to Earth for acting like a bunch of entitles jerks, willing to impose their will upon the public by any means necessary. That is not acceptable. It happened to the right a few years back. It has happened to the left now. It will happen again. And you can do your  best to not let it happen again.

Identity politics and moral signaling are a losing game because none of us are perfect and eventually it'll be turned around on us. We have to be able to come to grips with the facts that some people aren't going to agree with us on everything. But even then we can still find common ground to work together. At least we can here within this system of opinions. And we should be grateful for that and not lose sight of that, unless we want to risk actually losing the luxury of being able to bitch at one another without the threat of serious reprisal.

This year was the left's year to be routed. It isn't wholly undeserved. Please learn from it and try to understand why you were rebuked. Please try to understand why people that would otherwise be your allies (hello) are disgusted with your behavior to the same degree that the behavior of President The Donald has disgusted us.

Because there are reasons why I wasn't with you, the people that are otherwise the most-like me. And frankly, I haven't been making those reasons a secret. Maybe some of you need to take a look in the mirror and recognize that you were drinking another brand of Kool-Aid.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 07:21:03 am by PatMan33 »

Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2073 on: November 10, 2016, 05:56:41 am »
What the hell, let's get this trainwreck started.



This will be the thread for discussing all aspects of the 2016 elections, from state and local candidates flipping out and doing stupid things, to which Republican will lose to Hillary.

The comic Inkling posted turned out to be a pretty relevant one. In fact he was pretty much right about everything except the outcome. :3

Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2074 on: November 10, 2016, 07:21:19 am »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVBd0sKJQz8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVBd0sKJQz8</a>

TRAPPLE POST!

Offline Yokto

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2075 on: November 10, 2016, 08:50:57 am »
Well I expected this could happen. After the opinion polls started to turn after the debates I viewed the likelihood of trump winning to be some 45% (Just my guestimate). In other words pretty likely but not as likely as Hillary. Considering how it turned out I was not that far of. Just let me tell you. I was very worried the two last days and felt like I could not do enough to get people to not vote for Trump. But I also knew it was partly a lost cause and partly not my freaking job to get Americans not to vote for Trump.

But you know. There is a self serving reason why I did not want Trump to win. First and for most I share the planet with America. So when trump is talking about pretty much dismantling as much regulation as possible on the environmental front then I get worried. Not only would it be a huge setback as USA is one of the worlds biggest polluters (CO2 emissions effects us all after all). But it might also get other nations to abandon there environmental policies. It could lead to drastic reduction in environmental friendly technology to.

Second. USA is a big business partner with Europe and if Trumps protectionist rhetoric is anything to go by then a lot of that trade could be at risk. I actually find it slightly less likely as Republicans are for free trade. (I am more for fair trade to be honest.) But there is a economic risk there. Even just putting the American economy it self in risk would actually be bad for me as I do interact with American companies (by American products from time to time). Though the analyst I have seen predict that there might be a bit growth in the domestic marking in USA due to tax reductions and de-regulation. This will likely create a hangover down the line however especially if the debt continues to spiral out of control.

Third. I am generally worried about Trumps temperament and lack of tact. This could create a lot of issues with world leaders around the world. USA already has a bit of a complex. After all USA is called the only superpower today. And with the ego Trump has shown this could end very badly. I do not want USA trying some from of gunboat diplomacy which could really backfire and lead to wars. After all Donald though that USA should annex Iraqi oil fields. And that could make the whole situation worse leading to more insurgency and a revitalization of ISIS which he also claim he will destroy. Not to mention those methods he have said he want to use to achieve this task. Torture, Killing Families and even using nuclear weapons is not off the table for Trump. And these things should be off the table for any sane leader.

Forth. He is calling for increasing military spending in USA. But even worse. To spend more on Nuclear weapons. And the more you have of those the more chances there are that something goes wrong. USA have enough nukes to destroy any nation and is allies and then some. So adding more to that arsenal just makes the world more unsafe. Not only that. He thinks that maybe some non-nuclear nations allied to USA should get there own nukes so they do not have to relay on USA. I do not want a world where Saudi Arabia has nuclear weapons. It is bad enough that Israel has them in the region (though not officially). And by throwing out the treaty with Iran then we might have three nuclear powers in the region. And having these three nations with nuclear weapons do not fill me with calm. Especially not considering how much all three hate each other.

And this is all from Trump him self. Not from Liberal media reporting (more then quoting him). But maybe is just empty rhetoric.

Naturally there less selfish reasons to why did not want Trump as a president. But if you talk about what in it for me then these four points are the main points I think. And yeah. And that why so many non-american cares about American politics. (But we do not care that much about goes on in Argentina because Argentina hardly effects us. Sorry Argentina)
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Offline Yokto

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2076 on: November 10, 2016, 09:10:57 am »
Maybe he will do a better job with this. Meanwhile...

Antia Vid

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abwc7AAXn3A" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abwc7AAXn3A</a>
As counterpoint. As I see it it that sort of thinking that this is all about bigotry that is part of the issue. Do not turn all those that voted for trump in to demons.
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Offline Cyst

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2077 on: November 10, 2016, 09:58:55 am »
Is it too early/late for me to say: I predict Trump will win. ??

-coughs- Do I win?
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2078 on: November 10, 2016, 10:09:01 am »
Yeah but whoever wins, we lose.

I agree with pretty much everything Yokto said in his long post.

As for your point Chitoes. I absolutely guarantee that Trump winning will embolden racists and hate groups. 100% it is already happening and will continue to happen in the days ahead. I know this because it's exactly what happened with Brexit. Not everyone who voted Brexit was a bigot, and not all bigots voted Brexit, but the result of that vote made a lot of bigots think they were the majority and that they had the people on their side.

There are undoubtedly people who think a vote for Trump was a vote to expel all Mexicans from their neighborhood effective immediately. You can twist words and argue semantics until the cows come home but you can't deny a Trump victory will lead to a (possibly temporary?) upswing in hate crimes (even if you take hate crimes commited by disgruntled Clintonoids out of the equation). 
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2079 on: November 10, 2016, 10:25:14 am »
Is it too early/late for me to say: I predict Trump will win. ??

-coughs- Do I win?

Sadly no. By December you were already late to that party.

Not everyone who voted Brexit was a bigot, and not all bigots voted Brexit, but the result of that vote made a lot of bigots think they were the majority and that they had the people on their side.

Mm. Sounds familiar.

Offline Yokto

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2080 on: November 10, 2016, 10:28:12 am »
When it comes to the semantic argument. If two people have a beef about what the defection of a word is then they need to simply work it out before go on. I see this all the time. People using two different definitions then arguing against each other.  And no a dictionary wont solve the issue. It can guide you but in the end both parties must agree with the definition. This is especially a concern when your arguing politics or philosophy. So do not go: "That not what the word means!" and think you have won. Just means your not willing to actually debate the issue on a level as equals.
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Offline Ultimatum

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2081 on: November 10, 2016, 10:50:43 am »
Is it too early/late for me to say: I predict Trump will win. ??

-coughs- Do I win?



You lose! Good day sir!

Offline Ultimatum

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2082 on: November 10, 2016, 10:55:01 am »
everyone knows the reference so why bother with a video?

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2083 on: November 10, 2016, 10:58:57 am »
Yeah, but 'coincidentally' that upswing is primarily against whitey... because, everyone drawing lines from Trump to expected hate crimes is just emboldening hate crimes against Trump supporters, or anyone of a similar shade of skin.  Odd, how the hate crime reports alleged from Trump supporters seem to result in nobody getting beaten, while alleged hate crimes against Trump supporters send them to the hospital.  There is definitely not parity here... and the expectation of violence by the media is certainly helping to drive the stupidity.

Anyway, Clinton winning would have sparked action by racists and hate groups too.  You can twist words and argue semantics until the cows come home but you can't deny a Clinton victory would have also lead to a (possibly temporary?) upswing in hate crimes (even if you take hate crimes committed by disgruntled Trumpoids out of the equation).  Idiots don't need excuses but will use any excuse.  Nobody has a monopoly on hate.  Nobody has a monopoly on stupid, either.

Welp, there's the false equivalence again.

I will absolutely give credit to Pat on his assesment. The Democrats and "liberal elite" are guilty of plenty. In eight years under Obama the problems with America were not well addressed and that's only partly due to Republican obstructionism.

But to say everyone is a bigoted and everyone is capable of hate is like some sort of ****ed up Trump-apologist version of political correctness. It's like saying ISIS terror bombings have nothing to do with Islam. Sorry dude but your constant vaccilating on just about every issue and desperation to cover your ass and look like the champion of objective rationality and fairness is pathetic. Your desperation to be objective has made you willing to give undue credence to conspiracy theories and in the same breath as you dismiss something from the terminally untrustworthy liberal media you'll eat up the garbage that spews out of the Trump press office. You are everything you claim to be against.


Also everyone on this forum knows about Willy Wonka, ****ing hell.  ::)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 11:05:13 am by Krakow Sam »
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Inkling

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #2084 on: November 10, 2016, 02:00:31 pm »
Is it too early/late for me to say: I predict Trump will win. ??

-coughs- Do I win?

As the one who started this thread, I can confirm that Cyst is a winner.  The prize is a Trump Presidency, and you get enough to share with everyone.

What the hell, let's get this trainwreck started.



This will be the thread for discussing all aspects of the 2016 elections, from state and local candidates flipping out and doing stupid things, to which Republican will lose to Hillary.

The comic Inkling posted turned out to be a pretty relevant one. In fact he was pretty much right about everything except the outcome. :3

I put that line in the start of the thread hoping I would be wrong.  Oh, how little did I know...

There are good people and bad people on both sides and in both parties, however you want to split it.  But Trump's rhetoric and proposals on Muslims, immigration, specifically from Mexico, his infantile insults of any and all opponents and offering to pay the legal bills of anyone who beat up rally crashers are all things that could pretty obviously incite violent or hateful behavior.  If there was similarly incendiary rhetoric from Clinton, I must have missed it and I'd like to know about it.
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