Author Topic: 2016 Election  (Read 226182 times)

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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1815 on: October 15, 2016, 07:09:25 pm »
And people are voting for some thing as crazy as Donald Trump because they feel that the establishment failed.

No, it is so much more than this. The media never talks about this. I don't think the establishment has failed.

I think the establishment is actively working against my interests. It's a deeper problem than, "oh, they failed to pass their agenda." Their agenda is opposed to me having a better future. Their agenda is to support their friends and members of the in-group. Their agenda will see that "their people" get all of the bonuses and benefits while I remain here languishing in a worsening reality.

They want to talk anti-terror? Talk the talk, bitches. Talk to me in 20 years when you've got two generations of absolutely marginalized people in a system that doesn't listen to them anymore. Talk to me when what you've done to black people is what you've rolled out to every other group of people. Talk to me when you've got suicide bombings in the street, mass shootings multiple times a day, and a population that now is legitimately something the government would be wise not to trust. Talk to me ****ing then.

Nope. This **** is ****ed. It isn't just about the establishment being inept. It is about the establishment abdicating their responsibility to the people in exchange for favors and a little tickle on the balls. They are working against the majority and warping the minds of the majority to think it is good. That **** doesn't stick. It will spring back into its original shape someday, and the more you wind it up, the more violent the reset will be.

I hate these people because the hyperbole of today will become the truth of tomorrow if we don't stop these putrid human beings and install people that have the interests of the people in mind. And again, I hate them even moreso because of the person I've become in the system stewarded by people I was supposed to be able to rely on. This isn't the life I wanted. I hate being angry at the system all the time. This isn't what I was raised to be a part of and I'm sick of my double-talking elders who have robbed my future telling me that I'm lazy and a piece of ****.

"Just get another job!"

You know what? No. I don't wanna work that much to simply get a whiff of being able to tread water. I'll just off myself when the scales stack too far against me and until then I'll enjoy however much of a ride I have left. **** this country and this world. They don't deserve it. I'll watch you burn. I'm probably not going to vote this year and I'm not sure I even feel like voting ever again if this stupid system continues doing what it does.

**** it. **** them. **** you. And **** me.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 07:14:44 pm by PatMan33 »

Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1816 on: October 15, 2016, 07:31:50 pm »
Hah! Good post. :)

Offline Yokto

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1817 on: October 16, 2016, 04:39:39 am »
There is a clear difference however. Trump uses the rhetoric but do not show the willingness to actually pass the reforms that would benefits the populous. He instead seem to be focused on continuing the Reaganomics style supply-side economics that I would say is both the reason why USA now is in such a great deal of debt and why we are seeing such disparity between rich and poor.

Yes. America seem to mirror the Roman Republic in many ways. But following on it path is not the answer. Break old patterns. Find new ways. Make true reforms. If USA want to avoid following in footsteps of Rome then it need to do so much more then just go with Trump (or Hillary for that matter). If anything Trump is undermining the US republic and setting it up for dictatorial rule. Maybe not by Trump him self. But some other Demagogue following in his footsteps. 
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Offline Yokto

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1818 on: October 16, 2016, 09:54:10 am »
I though Wikileaks where reading Clinton's Emails.
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1819 on: October 16, 2016, 10:54:31 am »
If Trump gets to be president, his goal is more likely to be the best president ever, which could serve the people's and the nation's interests. 

That's not how arrogant egotists work at all!

If Trump becomes president then he'll most likely just believe he *is* the best president ever, whatever he does and whatever the outcome. Wanting to be the best president ever would be the goal of an ambitious person. Trump isn't ambitious, he's an egomaniac. Also the idea that he could serve the people's interests is predicated a bit on his actual ability to do the job, which looks to be fairly minimal, given his total lack of political experience and terrible leadership skills.

Also you make this statement in the same post that you criticise people who claim they know what's in Trump's mind so... I don't know what you're angling at here exactly.
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1820 on: October 16, 2016, 12:04:37 pm »
There is a clear difference however. Trump uses the rhetoric but do not show the willingness to actually pass the reforms that would benefits the populous. He instead seem to be focused on continuing the Reaganomics style supply-side economics that I would say is both the reason why USA now is in such a great deal of debt and why we are seeing such disparity between rich and poor.

Almost everyone in our system uses rhetoric but does not show the willingness to actually pass the reforms. And besides, Trump has never actually held office so I don't know why you say he hasn't shown a willingness to pass reform when he has never had the power to do so outside of the normal process of political donations. In that respect I imagine he showed quite a lot of willingness to get reforms passed. He was spending his own money, after all.

It is amazing how everyone can read Trump's mind and nobody can read Clinton's emails.   :o


Offline Yokto

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1821 on: October 16, 2016, 12:32:09 pm »
OK. Here is a issue I have with trump supporters.

We should expect Trump to act in a smiler when he is President has he has done in the past. We can not know he will really act in such a way.

We should not expect him to be true to his word. What says might not actually be what he will do.

The problem is with that sort of reasoning he is just a black box. And we can apply that sort of think about any candidate. But that not my reasoning. I look at is past yes. And is not the best track record he has. In fact is a very poor one. Sure he has money. But he is not a self made man. And money seem to be the only thing he got (And is not like he is the only one that have a head for business when it comes to candidates). And I am also listing to what the man is saying. And that not in his favour ether. Both how he talks about others and what he plans to do in office. When ever he talks about some concrete policy or reform he want to do all I see is how his tinkle down economics policy will just push USA more in to debt and widen the gabs between rich and poor.

Really. Why should I think he is a swell guy?
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1822 on: October 16, 2016, 12:46:19 pm »
I agree with your entire post, Yokto. Well said.

Offline Yokto

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1823 on: October 16, 2016, 03:18:59 pm »
That a issue to with Trump. He is in is self so polarizing that even if he do say something that really should be up for discussion him simply mentioning it can lead to the other side not considering it. So should USA be more open towards Russia? Maybe. But is now that Trump think that then we must totally be harsher towards Russia! Urgh... I hate how polarized politics have become.
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1824 on: October 16, 2016, 05:22:24 pm »
Further to what Yokto is saying, even if Trump really is saying things that might be effective that doesn't mean he has the first idea on how to implement them.

It's like asking a schoolkid what invention they'd like to create. They all have plenty of ideas (rocket car, time machine, cooking device with different compartments for different vegetables) but a child doesn't have the faintest idea about engineering or how to actually make a rocket car. Trump can talk about changing policy toward Russia but how exactly is he going to implement it? Some crazy suggestion about abandoning NATO and a declaration of his admiration for Putin's strongman leadership style.

If this situation were one of those pointless school elections then Trump would be the one running on the platform of reducing homework, free candy in the vending machines and more asbestos. None of these things are actually feasible but schoolkids can safely vote for pie in the sky because Student Body President has absolutely no power. In real life the kid promising free candy can't deliver.
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Offline Inkling

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1825 on: October 16, 2016, 10:34:43 pm »
I hope McMullin takes a state.  It'd be appropriate, the last time an independent won a state was 1968 and our politics are getting close to being that messy again.
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1826 on: October 17, 2016, 09:03:46 am »
Further to what Yokto is saying, even if Trump really is saying things that might be effective that doesn't mean he has the first idea on how to implement them.

I'm just curious about this point because I see it come up a lot.

I don't have any argument or anything with it, but are we really suggesting that Trump wouldn't be able to hire on experienced people to help him navigate this stuff? I'm pretty sure Obama was about as green as they come and he did... well, he did some okay stuff.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1827 on: October 17, 2016, 09:37:11 am »
Further to what Yokto is saying, even if Trump really is saying things that might be effective that doesn't mean he has the first idea on how to implement them.

I'm just curious about this point because I see it come up a lot.

I don't have any argument or anything with it, but are we really suggesting that Trump wouldn't be able to hire on experienced people to help him navigate this stuff? I'm pretty sure Obama was about as green as they come and he did... well, he did some okay stuff.

Because Trump is putting up huge barriers to that sort of thing happening. Straight out of the gate he's divisive which means he's already alienated many of the people who have that experience and could work for him with his many outrageous statements and behaviours. His lack of experience in the sphere of politics also means that he's unlikely to actually have the contacts to get the best people for the job. Obama may have been relatively green but he'd been a Senator since 1996 and his previous work as a civil rights lawyer would have had him moving in the political sphere. Finally, people who have worked with Trump paint him as a classic big boss authoritarian guy (I don't think even his supporters would deny this, it's a large part of his appeal) who is used to being told what he wants to hear and is unlikely to cooperate. That last accusation particularly could be levelled against a lot of politicians, including Clinton, but all taken together it doesn't suggest Trump can make it work.

Also, if Trump's strategy as president is just to appoint a bunch of other people to do his job then why should he be president in the first place? Decider in Chief didn't work out all that well.

http://archive.is/qcbW5


I looked this guy up and he just seems to be a twitter account. He's making the same argument as basically all the other never Clintons. You're not giving more credence to him just because he's (apparently) Russian?
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1828 on: October 17, 2016, 09:43:48 am »
Where have you gone, Joe?



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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1829 on: October 17, 2016, 10:34:23 am »
I was actually commenting on the quality of the source. Here's another Russian who says the exact opposite! :O
Also he had his ass handed to him by a robot so he's got every reason to be biased against Hillary Clinton.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/donald-trump-reminds-me-of-vladimir-putin--and-that-is-terrifying/2016/07/23/36397692-50e5-11e6-a7d8-13d06b37f256_story.html?utm_term=.38be80826243

Also, in terms of sources agreeing with what you already believe... don't you think its a bit strange that someone who was apparently involved in Russian "opposition" politics would have the same pro-Trump stance as the majority of Russians including Vladimir Putin. It's not a secret that the Kremlin would very much like Trump to win on the basis that he's basically said he'd be soft on Russia, and would be more likely to weaken America's economy and ability to project force. It's also not a secret that Russia has a massive investment in cyberwarfare, including propaganda. Since the only information I can find out about this guy from google is a twitter account and a facebook page both of which are big on politics and short on personal details, I don't think it's totally unreasonable not to treat it as a credible source.
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