Author Topic: 2016 Election  (Read 219055 times)

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Offline /lurk

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1635 on: September 15, 2016, 07:50:31 am »
On the other hand, the internet was a 100% Trump-zone. If it worked for him, maybe Clinton isn't too powerful to meme away.
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1636 on: September 15, 2016, 10:08:22 am »
On the internet maybe. If you only listen to the internet, Sanders was a shoe-in not only for the Democrat nomination, but also the president and eventually God. And it was Ron Paul last election.

Eh, I disagree with this assessment. That's a very shallow interpretation of what we saw. And frankly, a lot of the online support for Sanders was coming from people that aren't even old enough to vote. He had a hype train and while a lot of us may have hoped, we knew how it was going to go down. Same with Ron Paul. It's a hope, not a serious determination.

On the internet... they're injecting all of this internet stuff into the election because they can manipulate it easily for the public. Like you say, the public doesn't know much about memes. They know the occasional mention of "weird sites" on the internet that cater to this stuff. It is all manipulation and I wouldn't even be surprised if it is just a long-con to clamp down on the internet even more. They've got people convinced that 4chan is a haven for white supremacists, rather than one of the last bastions for them to have their goofy-ass discussions about things that will never come to pass.

I find myself forced to defend these groups in the same way I find myself forced to defend Trump sometimes. They are *******s, yes. They are also being clearly misrepresented and having their freedoms pushed further and further toward the brink. I don't agree with a damn word this minority of white supremacists say. But they have a right to say it and driving them off sites like 4chan (where they are still a tiny minority) only serves to harden those wild stances they hold and forces these groups underground.

And this is especially irritating because people I know and respect, people that I know are highly intelligent... they refuse to understand what I am doing. They're so hardened in their positions that they won't see objectivity. I am not supporting white supremacy and **** you for saying that. I am supporting the idea that these people, even with their deplorable opinions, deserve the same right to voice what they think that anyone else has. Nothing more, nothing less. It's simple. It's the system we are supposed to be champions of. I reject a system that would take the voice away from those that are clearly in the wrong. Let them speak. Let them be heard. And let them fade back into the background where they belong once they've spoken their piece.

This is what I think my whole gripe is with this election and previous ones. I am finally starting to grasp some of where my anger comes from. Because I don't like that I find myself coming to the defense of people I'd rather not give the time of day to. But... well, I don't think it is right to let Hillary tell me that these people are bad and why, while also supporting the idea that social justice is an acceptable way to combat these groups. This is just the same thing those hate groups did back in the day, but reversed and hidden behind another mask of "doing a public good".

If these racists are as bad as everyone says, let them speak. Let their crappy, tired ideas fail in the marketplace of ideas like they always, inevitably have.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1637 on: September 15, 2016, 10:29:17 am »
I agree with what you ay Pat, but can we please stop using "social justice" as a term to describe fringe groups and an obviously dumb ideology.

I mean, look at the words there. I think we can all agree we want a just society. The very fact that social justice now seems to be turning into an insult is handing a victory to that minority you're talking about who hang out on 4chan posting smug frog memes. "Regressive left" is a much better way to label what you're talking about than "social justice" is. 
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Offline /lurk

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1638 on: September 15, 2016, 10:50:41 am »
"Social justice" is what they call themselves. You're not some kind of ****lord who'd tell them what to identify as, are you?

Don't fight over this because arguing semantics is stupid. If the tumblrs call themselves social justice and the smug frogs call the tumblrs social justice then there's no point trying to say it's something else, since those are the only people who use the expression these days anyway. Trying to use it the way you want went out in the 50's or even earlier.
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1639 on: September 15, 2016, 11:02:52 am »
"Social justice" is what they call themselves. You're not some kind of ****lord who'd tell them what to identify as, are you?

Don't fight over this because arguing semantics is stupid. If the tumblrs call themselves social justice and the smug frogs call the tumblrs social justice then there's no point trying to say it's something else, since those are the only people who use the expression these days anyway. Trying to use it the way you want went out in the 50's or even earlier.

Because sometimes someone like a politician (Like say, our Lord and Saviour Bernie Sanders) might use the word with it's older connotation and then a bunch of ****lords on the internet jump to the wrong conclusion.
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Offline /lurk

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1640 on: September 15, 2016, 11:12:44 am »
If he knows Pepe's secret neo-nazi history then he should know social justice means these days.
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1641 on: September 15, 2016, 11:18:48 am »
I come up against this a lot and it seems like a national difference as well.

I know plenty of people in the UK who describe themselves as feminists who hold "normal" positions about equal rights etc. From this angle it seems like the US just has a problem with loud regressive feminists.
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1642 on: September 15, 2016, 11:23:36 am »
From this angle it seems like the US just has a problem with loud regressive feminists.


Offline /lurk

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1643 on: September 15, 2016, 11:25:33 am »
Hey maybe it's as if labels aren't actually important.




lol j/k feminist transqueer intersectional femme-poc butch androboi here, u?
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1644 on: September 15, 2016, 11:28:00 am »
im a queef

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1645 on: September 15, 2016, 11:30:50 am »
I think honestly the "just accept the meaning has changed" crowd are depriving themselves of a pretty powerful weapon against the people they claim to be opposed to.

If "feminist" now means regressive leftist who thinks society needs to be restratified based on privilege or thinks white men are all rapists-in-waiting then feminist starts getting used as an insult by people who oppose that ideology, but the target of the insult don't consider it an insult and actually consider it a badge of honour (and it justifies what they're doing because of the historical connotations of the world, proto-feminism resulted in women's sufferage after all). If instead people got their **** together and decided that actually the word means what it used to mean, someone who believes that people should be treated equally regardless of gender (we'll put aside what being treated equally entails) and tells the regressivos they're *not* feminists then you've delivered a sick burn and delegitimised their whole project.

The perjorative use of the word feminist is mostly a way for people who don't like regressive lefties to signal their beliefs to each other, rather than a useful term for discussions that are actually going to change anyone's mind.

Hey maybe it's as if labels aren't actually important.

Labels are important a lot of the time. Just because something doesn't exist doesn't mean it isn't real :U
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1646 on: September 15, 2016, 11:39:47 am »
Language use bifurcates even between small groups.  With a population of billions, the issue is probably worthy of an entire field of academic study.  Fascinating stuff.

I think the position on "social justice" that people gravitate to is along the lines of "if social justice is different from justice, then it cannot be just."  I think that relegates the term to some sort of Orwellian newspeak.

Can't tell if you're trying to make a joke with that first point but here you go anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_social_science

Second point I don't really understand what you're trying to say, could you rephrase it?
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1647 on: September 15, 2016, 11:41:40 am »
WHOA GUYS!

RUSSIAN HACKERS GONNA STEAL THE ELECTION!

This new angle. Where does it come from? Why?

Offline Yokto

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1648 on: September 17, 2016, 01:40:08 am »
I would like to point out that you can not trust what you see on media on the internet. Yes. Sure you may see your facebook page just post information that all seems to agree with you. Or at least railed you up. But it is because it is programmed to. The algorithms that selects what you view are ether focused on making sure you are as engaged as possible or finding information that you are most pleased about. And that goes both with social media and search results. Google is not about helping you find the truth. But what your looking for. And on top of that humans are by nation looking for information that is confirming there world view while disregarding anything that goes against it.

In the end the result of the current media landscape is that it polarize people more and that people find fringe groups to be the norm. Not to mention that many of these fringe groups have a vested interest in trying to construct strawmans and demonise the opposing views.

In the end I think we just need to start shooting down bad arguments rather then trying to bunch up everyone in to one big group and then attack a strawman that we have made in the image of that group. It is very dishonest.

And is there really a group that call them self as the regressive left?
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: 2016 Elections
« Reply #1649 on: September 17, 2016, 02:28:55 am »
Yeah, you guys have no idea who pays me. 8)