Author Topic: Sexism and Equality  (Read 3891 times)

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Offline MasterChiToes

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Sexism and Equality
« on: October 30, 2014, 07:08:00 pm »
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« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 02:11:57 am by MasterChiToes »



Offline Haseri

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2014, 06:01:21 am »
I wouldn't say all social interactions are becoming harassment.

The thing to take away from that video is: women aren't dressing up and putting on perfume for you, or for me, or anyone on the street. My friend does not wear (often low cut) dresses because she wants to impress men, she wears them because she likes vintage-style dresses. Does she look good in them? Yes, but she wouldn't really appreciate it if I said so. Mostly because its not appropriate, and is not why I like being her friend.

The only person a woman wants a compliment from (in my experience) is her female friends, not some stranger only complimenting her on her looks. Her partner as well obviously, but that's a given. I rarely give compliments to friends and usually when they've made an effort to dress up and look good, especially if I've not seen them in a while. I wouldn't do it on a daily basis, because it's not appropriate.

I don't think it's that hard to pick up on social cues - it all depends on the situation. If someone's comfortable around you, they'll make it pretty obvious. Just remember the golden rule - treat others how you wish to be treated. But Haseri, don't you like being complimented? Yes, on the occasions I am. But the times it happens its because I'm receptive to them, and they're from people I know. I enjoy the confidence boost, and get on with my day. But people yelling at me from their cars or shouting things to me on the street (compliments or not)? Pretty damn disturbing.

I can understand why people get defensive when people lump men together. I don't catcall, why am I lumped in the jerks who are? Except I'm not. She's not talking about you or me, she's talking about the people in the video. I don't know who Rebecca Watson is or the circumstances behind her being asked out for coffee, but I expect it wasn't just about that. Nobody likes being called out on something they didn't do, but one should at least be self-aware enough when they are called out on things they do.

You said so yourself, your experience is limited, especially in urban areas. Mine isn't as limited and I'm just not seeing the kinds of things I'm reading - not just you, but every time I read something like this. The idea of a 'Western Gender Caste System' is (this isn't meant as an attack) not only wrong, but damaging to the idea that men and women can interact with one another with everyone being comfortable and happy. Women (the ones I know anyway) don't want a segregated society, they just want one where they're treated with respect. You talk of poisoned wells - come to any kind of relationship with the attitude that people are just waiting to screw you over in some way, of course your interactions are going to be painted by that (I'm not saying this of you in particular, but people of that certain 'put-upon men' vs 'shrewish women' mindset).

Offline Haseri

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2014, 11:29:56 am »
To be honest, it's just as much something I wanted to get off my chest. It's like on International Women's Day and people ask when's International Men's Day? Well, it's the other 364 days a year. When's White History Month? The other 11 months of the year. Why no Straight Pride Parades? I don't know, look at any screen to see us heterosexuals being all straight in people's faces. I'm a media studies student, but it shouldn't take to long to realise that straight white guys are still pretty damn powerful, and that's not likely to change in the short term.

Equality isn't a zero sum game. Masculinity isn't being attacked. Or it is, but its something that needs changing. No matter what the reason, harassing a woman while she's walking down the street is not acceptable. I don't believe in a universal need for respect. A need to be liked, accepted? I won't ever stop agreeing with you. But I would never say a person can demand respect off of someone they don't know, especially if that demand comes in the form of a catcall, then acting all offended when she doesn't reciprocate. Respect must be earned. I've earned the respect of my friends and peers, they've earned the respect of me.

I don't expect respect off of the person walking by in the street. Courtesy maybe - saying excuse me and thank you, not catcalling or shouting without warrant. But that's it, and I treat people with that same courtesy.

I don't know what to say about the 'group attacks' on men. I don't think saying 'Guys, please stop harassing me' violates the golden rule. I expect to be called out on my behaviour, and have done. She isn't talking to me, she's talking (however uselessly) to the people who do that kind of thing.

Offline Inkling

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2014, 04:16:17 pm »
Listen to your mother and never talk to strangers.
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Offline eropS

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2014, 10:23:01 am »
Damn that guy is hot
No, no, he did. In the everything else section, at least. Officially, this makes him king.

Offline Inkling

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2014, 11:14:01 am »
Doesn't seem like much of a prank.  But that's no excuse for you to harass him, erops.  You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Offline Brandonazz

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2014, 07:52:15 pm »
Damn that guy is hot

Dem pectorals.

Offline Great Distance

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2014, 02:54:12 pm »
A few weeks ago I dressed up real nice... and then some random dude just had to come to speak to me and tell me I look like "The Moon Girl".

So naturally I ran away screaming and called the police... No, actually I had to wait an hour for the train anyway, so I had some coffee with him.

That doesn't normally happen to me though, so I figure if it happened constantly it would get a bit tiring... And men who just want you for your looks are idiots, anyway. But I can totally relate to the feeling of being rejected. Guys are just human, too... Thank god guys don't think it's a huge issue if a girl thinks they're hot.

But yeah, I basically think some women are stuck-up bitches. But it's understandable from their perspective. You are a hot woman and men are constantly after you. It's not like you're desperate enough to hook up with some random dude straight off the street.

Unless you happen to hit on someone who is not always that attractive. They might be desperate enough. But if looks are what mattered to you, you're setting yourself up for disappointment anyway. :D

Ladies and gentlemen, the human race is doomed. Who gives a ****. There will always be people who think you are a creepy creeper but there will also be people who are willing to give you a chance... and risk being mugged/raped or whatever. Now who is offending whom I don't know. But generalising all men as "street harassers"... or women as "stuck-up bitches" isn't certainly the way to go.

Some things, I think, humanity just has to accept. Some people being bothered by other people being attracted to them is just a natural consequence of the way the world works... As long as you're not actually hurting anyone, it's alright. It may be stupid depending on circumstances, but it's not like you should put everyone in jail who makes a social mishap. For example that guy who was asking her if "he's too ugly" sounded like an insecure guy, and it makes sense to me he wouldn't stop asking... The least she could do is acknowledge the guy and wave him off or something. If I were him, I would've come out of that situation convinced that I'm just too ugly for all of humanity to handle. It's really not nice to have your entire existence ignored.

Anyway, I totally see her point of view, too. I think it's just a matter of coming across the right person. Some people would consider this harrasment, others would not. I mean come on, people have even written guides on getting out of your social anxiety by talking to random people in public... durrp. I guess one of the rules in that situation should be "If they show extreme disinterest, back off unless you want a lawsuit".

Offline Inkling

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2014, 03:28:43 pm »
And as a woman your opinion counts more than anyone else here combined.  At least until LadyM comes by.
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2014, 04:27:19 am »
Ink GD isn't a woman she's a Moon Girl. Duh.

I think the whole issue of strangers asking women out on the streets is partially the fault of tv and movies.

Consider that in romantic movies the vast majority of relationships start with a completely chance meeting. The old cliché "woman drops something due to cinematic klutzyness and beef manhunk stops to help her gather her architecture papers or whatever and their eyes meet and then he asks her for coffee." Naturally this works because a) our hero Beef is one of the most handsome people in the world and his suitability as a mate is evident. b) Narrative convenience.

If you actually look at real life for a second then it becomes apparent that most relationships actually start between co-workers, people who do the same hobby or friends of friends (i.e. people who already sort of know each other).
Unfortunately some people are likely to use movies as their basis for how humans behave rather than the world around them, so they think their clumsy advances on random women in the street will be received the same way and get frustrated when they don't.


Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Inkling

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2014, 05:42:36 pm »
What's a Moon Girl?
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2014, 03:38:42 am »
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Slinky

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Re: Harassment and the Emergent Western Gender Caste System
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2014, 08:51:45 am »
All I know about that series is that Sokka ****ed the moon.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Sexism
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 10:56:04 am »
Changed the topic title to something more broad and less contentious and weird.
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Slinky

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Re: Sexism
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 11:01:36 am »
The Patterns of Western Hemispheric Gender-based Discrimination and Prejudice Emergent In The Internet and Tangible Society of Current-Day America

Offline Tesla

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Re: Sexism
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 11:34:30 am »
The Patterns of Western Hemispheric Gender-based Discrimination and Prejudice Emergent In The Internet and Tangible Society of Current-Day America Patriosphere.
No way dude, you're trolling me.

Offline Inkling

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Offline Tesla

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2014, 09:42:49 am »
so i normally don't care diddly squat about this stuff, but i do find this really funny. it's a shirt... i get the feeling people saw it and thought "oh, that looks like something we should be offended by."
No way dude, you're trolling me.

Offline eropS

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2014, 09:47:16 am »
i get the feeling people saw it and thought "oh, that looks like something we should be offended by."

That's everything everywhere.
No, no, he did. In the everything else section, at least. Officially, this makes him king.

Offline Tesla

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2014, 09:53:12 am »
Well there's such a thing as being actually offended by something, but it's a lot rarer than you know, forced offense.
No way dude, you're trolling me.

Offline eropS

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2014, 10:16:51 am »
Yeah, anything beyond a deeply personal attack shouldn't offend people imo.

Hitler did nothing wrong, god hates fags, gamers think women should die, blah blah blah it's all just crap that pours out of peoples mouth to get others riled up I don't get why people even respond.
No, no, he did. In the everything else section, at least. Officially, this makes him king.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2014, 10:49:20 am »
The article is quoted as saying "adults without children" aren't allowed. Adults.

Its ****ty that men get unreasonably tarred with the paedo brush but for ****'s sake stop looking for sexist outrages where they don't exist.

Boo bloody hoo, an injustice was perpetrated somewhere that affected a man. Cry me a river.
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Inkling

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2014, 11:05:48 am »
Does Bristol even have tourist attractions?
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2014, 11:12:33 am »
It's the sixth biggest city in England Ink, so yeah, of course.
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Inkling

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2014, 11:23:14 am »
Whoops, I was thinking it was in Northern Europe and was going to make stupid top gear based jokes.  I've actually been through Bristol once or twice.  There was a big mall and that's all I remember.
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Offline Haseri

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2014, 04:07:33 am »
Did somebody say Bristol?

Wait, this is North Somerset. The county with a seaside town where the beach is quicksand and mud.

This, I think, is one of those incidents that papers love to exploit because it means that angry people are going to write in saying more or less what you are saying.

Though I will point out that all of your examples weren't pink jackboots stamping on innocent men's faces.

Yes the harassment video was aiming for that but that manifesto is stupid and unlikely to get anywhere. I bet most people who watched it didn't know about the intent behind it and instead went for the whole 'women gets approached on the street when she doesn't want to'. By the way, in regards to that other video explaining it, being yelled at or approached  by a homeless guy (or any one) isn't the most comfortable feeling in the world for anyone, no matter how much power the pedestrian has. Being poor isn't an excuse to harass people, and I say that as someone who would also say being rich isn't an excuse either.

The shirt was, you have to admit, a very bad decision. The world's media come to your place of work, you're likely to get interviewed by the press. For a moment, you're representing thousands of people, and you're wearing a shirt with sexy leather-clad women on it. Should he have been bullied and reduced to tears? No. But it isn't an example of us sliding towards a 'matriarchal Saudi Arabia' (MasterChiToes, 2014, p. sorry essays on the brain). These were private citizens bullying him, not state police or anything like that. I bet this guy wears that shirt to work all the time without issue or he wouldn't have worn it last week. It's just really rotten luck and bunch of people over reacting to a small, inconsequential thing.

Finally, this is a different issue all together. Did you know under the Children's Act 2004 all places in Britain that involve people under the age of 16 have to compile their own rules and regulations regarding the safety of those children? Case in point, when I was a youth theatre assistant, we weren't allowed to have anyone under the age of 16 as a Facebook friend. We weren't even allowed to be alone with them, or allow any other adult to be alone with them. Over zealous? I don't think so. It was for our safety just as much as the children's. As a family attraction, I can almost guarantee that Puxton Park has its own rules about child safety, and not allowing unattended adults is one of them.

It's not perfect, but this is a result of staff thinking it better to be safe than sorry. But notice he wasn't escorted out by police, or having a court summons. Mr Richards hasn't broken a law, he just didn't get to visit a falconry display. Damn far from being whipped for being gay or not being allowed to drive under most conditions because one is a woman.

Now I'm not going to be able to know the results unless I ask Mum to dig out a copy of the Evening Post to find the poll, but I bet there are people who agree with you on this issue at least. Because there always is in newspapers.

Does Bristol even have tourist attractions?

We're having Shaun The Sheep statues pop around the city next year, after the success of the Gromits last year and the Alfred the Gorillas two years before that. We put up statues honouring a gorilla that was famous for urinating on the crowd. The zoo was also on ITV or something back in the days of black and white.

There was a big mall and that's all I remember.

Cribbs Causeway? Technically not in Bristol, but South Gloucestershire.

Offline Tesla

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2014, 04:19:03 am »
i sneezed on a woman one time
No way dude, you're trolling me.

Offline PatMan33

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2014, 07:34:37 am »

Offline Inkling

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2014, 08:16:21 am »
I thought people under 16 weren't supposed to be on facebook in the first place.  But if they are on there, is it still against the rule if they're related to you?
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Offline Haseri

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Re: Sexism and Equality
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2014, 08:26:21 am »
I might have even been under 18s. I can't remember.

There were allowances for family and friends if you knew each other before you joined the group.

We weren't even allowed to drink in front of them and if we saw them in a pub or something, we were supposed to leave

That being said, the rules were fairly loose. Everyone definitely broke the drinking rule (woe betide the person that comes between an actor and a drink), a friend saying that it was better them supervised here than out somewhere else. Or words to that effect. We were drinking at the time.