Author Topic: Phonetic English Language  (Read 3268 times)

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Offline PikMini

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Phonetic English Language
« on: December 16, 2013, 04:51:45 pm »
many guides exist to help persons with spelling, they aren't languages so much as a phonetic format which you learn, they oft include pauses/breaks and special characters/symbols, imo the more intuitive guides make do just with latin letters, this is my attempt at a latin alphabet which could be used for an analog of english

it isn't a perfect phonetic analog for english, just an approximate alternative

the natural portion is simply the alphabet (single characters), it does away with q and v, replaces c with (ah) and x with (th-)

the synthetic portion just lists some approximate sounds that can be made by stringing the naturals together, some had to be defined and others make sense if you pronounce them, either way they should be intuitive

« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 02:00:52 pm by PikMini »



Offline Inkling

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2013, 04:59:34 pm »
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do here.  Is this a mental exercise, for a game or project, or are you actually wanting to reform the english language?
Probably not a Goat, either.


Offline PikMini

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2013, 05:07:16 pm »
it is just an initial idea to latinize the symbols used for phonetic english so they could be written much like regular english... but it would be phonetic, by creating this topic i am showing my proposal to everyone and seeking comment

Offline Slinky

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2013, 05:28:02 pm »
Suggestion: Use capitalization.

Online Tesla

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2013, 05:46:37 pm »
Oh hey, relevant to my field of study!

For starters, your language uses "x" to indicate the [tʃ] affricate, and "sh" for the [ʃ] phoneme. In other words, the "ch" in "chew" is really just a "tsh." I'd suggest "tsh" instead of "x" as a transcription more faithful to the truth.

Similarly, your "j" letter represents the [dʒ] affricate and you then use "zh" to represent [ʒ] alone. Seems almost counterintuitive! How about having "j" represent the sound in "beige" and "dj" represent the sound in "jam?"

Your vowels could use some work. For example, you say "i" is the [ɪ] phoneme at the top, and then you say "i" represents the [ə] phoneme at the end. ("In" and "il) In some cases, you end up with "i" representing two different vowels in the same word. (For example, "kitten" would be spelled "kitin" despite the two "i"s representing different vowels.) Furthermore, many vowels are something called "dipthongs" which means that they're really just two vowels sound in quick succession. For example, the "i" sound in "lie" is just "a" as in "hat" followed by "ee." Try saying "aaaeee" faster and faster.

I could go on, but I think you'd be better off familiarizing yourself with the International Phonetic Alphabet!
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 05:48:29 pm by Spooky Tesla »
No way dude, you're trolling me.

Offline PatMan33

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2013, 06:11:14 pm »
Colour.

Offline Slinky

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2013, 06:13:29 pm »
Tesla, you study something?

Online Tesla

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 04:31:03 am »
Tesla, you study something?

Hurrr.

Also, I just noticed that your own transcription seems wrong, unless you pronounce "English Language" as "Eeng - lish Laneg (?) - widj." That is, starting with an "ee" sound, with no hard "g" in either word, and with the first syllable of "language" sounding like "lane."

I think "icglish lacgwij" makes more sense, using your own alphabet.
No way dude, you're trolling me.

Offline Oviraptor

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 09:27:07 am »
The other problem with phoneticizing the English language is dialects. How do you choose which dialect is the "correct" one? No matter what you decide, there will always be a lot of people that don't pronounce things the wag your alphabet does.

Better off creating your own language. Then you can do whatever you want!

Online Tesla

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 10:07:15 am »
Yeah, conlangs are fun! Especially when you make your own script or try to design a language radically different from your own.
No way dude, you're trolling me.

Offline Kenotai

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 11:16:56 am »
Are we on conlangs now? I have one! (I am so nerdy but it's what I do:P) I probably won't share unless asked though...
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Offline Oviraptor

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 12:02:23 pm »
Well, now you have to share it.

Offline /lurk

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 12:14:53 pm »
Colour.

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Offline Slinky

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 02:06:39 pm »
Keno, please.

Offline Kenotai

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 03:27:34 pm »
I think I'll make my own topic instead of hijacking this one. Keep an eye for it!
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Offline PikMini

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 03:29:50 pm »
Oh hey, relevant to my field of study!

For starters, your language uses "x" to indicate the [tʃ] affricate, and "sh" for the [ʃ] phoneme. In other words, the "ch" in "chew" is really just a "tsh." I'd suggest "tsh" instead of "x" as a transcription more faithful to the truth.

Similarly, your "j" letter represents the [dʒ] affricate and you then use "zh" to represent [ʒ] alone. Seems almost counterintuitive! How about having "j" represent the sound in "beige" and "dj" represent the sound in "jam?"

Your vowels could use some work. For example, you say "i" is the [ɪ] phoneme at the top, and then you say "i" represents the [ə] phoneme at the end. ("In" and "il) In some cases, you end up with "i" representing two different vowels in the same word. (For example, "kitten" would be spelled "kitin" despite the two "i"s representing different vowels.) Furthermore, many vowels are something called "dipthongs" which means that they're really just two vowels sound in quick succession. For example, the "i" sound in "lie" is just "a" as in "hat" followed by "ee." Try saying "aaaeee" faster and faster.

I could go on, but I think you'd be better off familiarizing yourself with the International Phonetic Alphabet!

awesome, that makes so much sense!

i knew the symbol for 'ch' was 'tʃ' but i just thought it was a group, so the t is there for a reason.  is there really a 'd' sound in 'jam' though?  my 'j' seems like a solid pronunciation without any 'd' before, if anything it is a kind of pause but i wouldn't call it 'd'

so a regular 'ng' is 'n-g' in that the 'n' sound is spoken fully, but i have trouble understanding 'ŋ', is it just 'ng' but with the 'n' kind of halfway pronounced?  by halfway i mean in the same sense as the 'il' in metal/mettle

i'm not sure dipthongs can be improved and i'm having trouble with the vowels also, also hyphenation or diacritics wouldn't be suitable for anything but i'm not sure how else to make certain sounds work

The other problem with phoneticizing the English language is dialects. How do you choose which dialect is the "correct" one? No matter what you decide, there will always be a lot of people that don't pronounce things the wag your alphabet does.

Better off creating your own language. Then you can do whatever you want!
i was going to include this in the original post but decided it would be better to let others bring it up... i believe this is the reason why it hasn't already been done, everyone pronounces words differently, so there will be many variations for the same word... but is this actually a problem?  (i think it will be interesting to see spellings of 'almond' without the 'l' because they don't actually pronounce it)

Suggestion: Use capitalization.
is it necessary?  i think lowercase is great for casual discussion, reduced eye strain since the letters are all of comparable height and weight, uppercase is more suited for graphic design/presentations

I think I'll make my own topic instead of hijacking this one. Keep an eye for it!
well at least describe it since you brought it up?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 03:33:33 pm by PikMini »

Online Tesla

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 03:48:50 pm »
awesome, that makes so much sense!

i knew the symbol for 'ch' was 'tʃ' but i just thought it was a group, so the t is there for a reason.  is there really a 'd' sound in 'jam' though?  i

so a regular 'ng' is 'n-g' in that the 'n' sound is spoken fully, but i have trouble understanding 'ŋ', is it just 'ng' but with the 'n' kind of halfway pronounced?  by halfway i mean in the same sense as the 'il' in metal/mettle

i'm not sure dipthongs can be improved and i'm having trouble with the vowels also, also hyphenation or diacritics wouldn't be suitable for anything but i'm not sure how else to make certain sounds work

The t is very much there for a reason. An affricate is basically a diphthong for consonants. For example, say the phrase "eet shay." (gibberish) Now say it ten times fast. Sounds like "eechay," right? That's because it's the same thing. :P

And yeah, there's a d in [dʒæm]. It's actually exactly the voiced equivalent of [tʃ], as [d] is the voiced equivalent of [t] and [ʒ] is the equivalent of [ʃ]. If you try the "eechay" thing with [d] and  [ʒ], you'll get "eejay."

[ŋ] is not related to [n] or [g] really, we just spell it "ng" in English, much the same way that we spell [tʃ] as "ch" despite it using neither c nor h. However, both [ŋ] and [n] are examples of nasal consonants so they sound similar. To further confuse things, it is extremely common in English to realize any occurrence of [ng] as [ŋg]. It's simply easier to say. (If you're interested, this happens a lot in every language. It's called "complementary distribution.")

The "halfway pronunciation" you refer to in "metal/mettle" is simply the vowel schwa, or [ə]. It's the vowel you make when your mouth is completely relaxed so it crops up a lot in unstressed syllables.

Regarding diphthongs, it kinda sucks, yeah. There simply aren't enough vowel characters in the English alphabet to portray all vowels without introducing some contrived system or repurposing unused letters.

i was going to include this in the original post but decided it would be better to let others bring it up... i believe this is the reason why it hasn't already been done, everyone pronounces words differently, so there will be many variations for the same word... but is this actually a problem?  (i think it will be interesting to see spellings of 'almond' without the 'l' because they don't actually pronounce it)

It kind of is a problem. I mean, sure, your orthographic reform would be nice for kids wherever you live, but when you start trying to teach it to kids on the other side of the world, your mapping of the vowels would be totally skewed. In their dialect, some words pronounced with the same vowels would be spelled with different vowels, or vice versa. Your reform would be totally for nothing.

And for the record, I pronounce the "l" in almond. :P
No way dude, you're trolling me.

Offline Slinky

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 03:57:19 pm »
Suggestion: Use capitalization.
is it necessary?  i think lowercase is great for casual discussion, reduced eye strain since the letters are all of comparable height and weight, uppercase is more suited for graphic design/presentations

That's actually a good point. Nevermind.

Offline PikMini

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Re: Phonetic English Language
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2013, 01:59:56 pm »
i updated the first page with the alphabet and decided on approximate sounds instead of equivalence, didn't even spell check woot

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