Author Topic: Xigerath  (Read 4301 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gorman Conall

  • Space Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 2983
    • View Profile
Xigerath
« on: November 15, 2012, 06:24:28 am »
I've talked about this every now and then, and recently talked to a couple people in IRC about it. But i'm creating a table top RPG, and was hoping to tap in to the many talents the members here have to offer if they would so choose. Its code named Xigerath, the name is subject to change. I am well aware that the game itself is not going to be everyone's cup of tea. But even if its not a style of game you would personally play, your input is still valued. And I need all the help I can get. Even if your not an RPG player, you can still help with lore ideas!

The goals of the game.

Allows players to create any kind of character they want to play without being restricted to a set of coded features.
Tactical, fun and in depth combat without being overly complicated.
Encourages role playing and improvising on behalf of the players.
Makes running the game painless for GMs with a suite of tools.

I've been working off and  on Xigerath for years, A ton of work is done on it and I will gladly show you guys when I..uh...make it less ugly?

Ill start by asking the same question I asked Sam and Neo in IRC, and on /rpg

What should a new RPG do to make martial characters interesting and fun to play as opposed to magic users?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 06:32:18 am by Gorman Conall »



Offline eropS

  • Out Run Speedster
  • *****
  • Posts: 5136
  • That's right, I went there
    • View Profile
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2012, 08:56:35 am »
Give them an equally unique set of stuff  they can play around with. I mean sure and extra crit bonus and  more skills is nice and all but it's no chain lightning.
No, no, he did. In the everything else section, at least. Officially, this makes him king.

Offline Krakow Sam

  • Moderator
  • Dungeon Sieger
  • *****
  • Posts: 24483
  • Stern dissaproval
    • View Profile
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2012, 10:17:31 am »
I wouldn't say that a fighter character necessarilly needs to have a completely unique set of skills. The same way a lot of spells are basically shared between types of casters.

DnD 3.5 wasn't entirely wrong in giving the fighter lots of feats. While more unique class features would also benefit the Fighter a lot, the main issue was that 3.5 didn't really have enough feats in the core rules, and many of the ones which it did have were totally useless.
Mutants and Mastermind, which is the best iteration of the d20 system I've played, has a lot more feats, to the point that playing Batman style non-powered heroes is often fun and viable. M&M has 35 feats described as combat feats alone, and probably that many again in the form of various other feats.

I can't really say any more on the matter as regards you because I don't know if you're using a feat/talent type system in your homebrew.

Oh, and I'll reiterate what I said in IRC. These fighter feats should not have any sort of supernatural effect. Obviously in a heroic fantasy what qualifies as 'supernatural' is open to interpretation, and ludicrous Conan-Esque feats of physical capability should be encouraged. I'm talking about things I've seen implemented in various games and splats such as feats which allow a fighter character to do elemental damage, feats which allow a fighter to teleport or move in some ludicrous wuxia-esque way or otherwise manipulate any kind of "ki" or "energy", since characters who do that already exist and are called wizards (or monks).

Another stumbling block with fighters in 3.5 is that the rules for advanced nonlethal combat maneuvers like trip, grapple, disarm and sunder are slapdash, unintuitive and fiddly, which discourages people from using them (I don't believe I've ever encountered a character who utilised the sundering rules), are too situational (feint is next to useless against animals and undead, you can sunder weapons but the same feat doesn't apply to chopping the limbs off monsters)  and often also have rather annoying prerequisites like needing a certain stat over a certain number, which immediately forces people to plan out 'builds' rather than allowing their character to advance organically.

A solid, unified system for grapple, trip, disarm, feint and sunder and whatever else would not only make conceptual sense (I think these actions all occupy a similar space in terms of function and narrative), but give fighters more tools at their disposal for tackling threats creatively.
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Gorman Conall

  • Space Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 2983
    • View Profile
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2012, 10:28:20 am »
Welp, Only me and my SO have seen what i'm about to post, Its not final, its probably ugly. I just cleaned it up some to show you guys. Character creation is basically four steps.
Pick a race.
Pick three traits.
Spend starting hero points on skills, feats, and spells.
Buy equipment.





Here is an Example race.

Roshan Humans
•   Size: Medium
•   Movement: 4
•   Language: Common
•   Vision: Normal
•   Adaptability: Humans gain an additional 5 hero points to spend during character creation
•   Diversity: Humans gain an extra trait at character creation. If an epic trait is used humans still get to select one other trait.
•   Unyielding Will: Once per well rest a human may add or subtract 5 to a dice roll made by or against them.
•   Dodge: 12
•   Hit Points:  20 +2 per rank of health
•   Stamina: 5
•   Mana: 5
•   +2 fortitude, Will, and Reflex
•   BAB: 2


And here is one of the steps in creating a character.

Spending your Hero points

You are given a few pools of hero points to spend in various categories during character creation. This is the only time you will be restricted to using them in a categorical manner. All future hero points that you accumulate can be spent freely in any category or on feats and spells.

You spend hero points to buy ranks in magic schools and weapon expertise, skills, and personal stats. Ranks all start at 0 each time you buy a rank within a subject its rank increases by 1. The cost of ranks starts at 1 hero point, but slowly increases as the ranks get higher. Every three ranks the cost go’s up by one. For example the first 3 ranks in a subject cost 1 point each, rank 5,6 and 7 cost two points each, rank 8, 9 and 10 cost 3 points each and so forth.

Remember that any bonuses you have from traits or another source do not directly influence ranks unless they specifically say so. For example, if you chose the Farmer trait, it grants +1 BAB, your BAB rank is actually still 0, but you get a +1 to any rolls that use BAB. This is an important distinction. If you have two ranks in BAB and have the farmer trait, any rolls using BAB is +3, HOWEVER you only have 2 ranks in it, so the next rank still only costs 1 hero point, not 2.

Weapon Expertise and Magic Schools: These subjects influence your ability to hit with weapons and spells; they also partially influence damage with them. They also dictate what feats and spells you can buy as certain feats and spells require a number of ranks in a subject to purchase.

Ranks in weapons and magic are the greatest influence on how accurate you are with them. You take the whole number of your ranks in a subject and apply it to attack rolls using that subject. If you have 3 ranks in sword, and you make an attack with a sword, that attack gets a +3 bonus to the roll.  Ranks in these subjects are one of two sets of stats that influence your damage. You take half of the ranks you have in a subject, and apply it to damage with that subject. For example, if you land a hit with a sword, and you have four ranks in sword, you deal an extra two damage.

You get 15 points to spend between the magic schools and weapon expertise

Magic schools
•   Fire:  Spells based on the element of fire
•   Ice:  Spells based on the element of ice
•   Lighting: Spells based on the element of lightning
•   Wind: Spells based on the element of wind
•   Water: Spells based on the element of water
•   Earth: Spells based on the element of earth
•   Rune: The ancient dwarven magic school  of using strange magic runes to great effect
•   Radiant: The power of radiant light and healing
•   Arcane: The pure uncultured form of magic, arcane is a strange mix of spells
•   Summoning: The art of Summing creatures and objects to aid you.
•   Neithermancy: A darker form of magic that can raise the dead or drain the life from foes
•   Druidic: Spells plant life and animals, some druids can even become animals themselves
•   Time: A powerful from of magic that enables the controlling of time in small degrees
•   Illusion: Spells that affect the mind and the senses.

Weapon Expertise:
•   Exotic: Bolas, nets, blow guns and slings, weapons that don’t fit in other categories are here.
•   Sword: The standard short and broadswords, to quick and graceful katana
•   Pole arm: A variety of Spears and long weapons
•   Axe: Heavy and Brutish axes
•   Hammer: Large and small war hammers
•   Dagger: A variety or small blades
•   Stave: From a quarter staff to a mages staff
•   Wand: A variety of wands
•   Orbs: Different types of mage orbs.
•   Bows: a trust variety of bows.
•   Crossbow: The slow but powerful crossbows
•   Pistol: The smaller gunpowder weaponry.
•   Rifle: Standard rifles as well as sniper rifles.
•   Large Firearms: The rapid shooting crank gun and the close range scatter shot.
•   Mace: The valiant hard hitting maces and flails
•   Martial arts: The four grand styles of martial arts.

Skills

Skills make up what a character is good at, a fast runner?  Skilled swimmer? Smooth talker? Skills with 0 ranks are considered untrained, but you can still attempt to use them. Whenever a situation calls for a skill check, you would make a d20 roll and add the number of ranks in that skill. Certain skill feats also exist that cannot be purchased unless you have a number of ranks in that skill. You get 24 points to spend on skills

•   Strength: A strong character is good at grappling, lifting and moving heavy things and other actions that require brute strength.
•   Run: A characters ability to run fast and long
•   Climb: How skilled a character is at climbing.
•   Endurance: A characters ability to endure anything from extreme heat, to petty insults.
•   Swim: How well a character can swim
•   Sneak: How stealthy a character is.
•   Acrobatics: How well a character can balance and perform other acrobatic actions.
•   Thievery: Thievery affects anything from pickpocketing to disarming traps.
•   First Aid: How much a character knows about naturally treating wounds.
•   Insight: How well a character can judge other peoples true motives and seeing through illusions.
•   Spot: characters ability to spot thing’s with eyesight.
•   Listen: a characters ability to hear things with their ears.
•   Concentrate: how well a person can stay focused on an action.
•   Diplomacy: How well a person can persuade others.
•   Bluff: How well a person can lie.
•   Leadership: How well a person teaches and leads
•   Intimidate: How imposing or scary a character can be
•   Ride: How skilled a character is at riding beasts
•   Drive: How skilled a character is at driving vehicle’s
•   Mechanics: How skilled a character is in dealing with mechanical objects.
•   Explosives: How skilled a person is in dealing with gunpowder and other explosives.
•   Electronics: How skilled a person is in dealing with interfaces and hacking.

Multiple choice skills the following three skills have sub category’s in them, what this means is you do not simply choose to put ranks in knowledge or perform, you choose to put ranks in a subcategory of them, for example knowledge: nature. This means you can have ranks in more than one knowledge skill.

Knowledge:
•   Magical: Knowledge about the arcane and magical creatures
•   Nature: Knowledge about natural beasts and the wilds.
•   Warfare: Knowledge about weaponry, tactics, war.
•   History: Knowledge about past events.
•   Religion: Knowledge about the powers that be and the undead
•   Dungeoneering: Knowledge about caves, dungeons, stonework and the creature that dwell there.
•   Geography: Knowledge about land, places, heraldry and people.
•   Technology: Knowledge about all things technological

Perform:
•   Acting: How well a person acts
•   Comedy: How well a person is at being humorous
•   Dance: How well a person can dance
•   Singing: How well a person can sing
•   Gambling: How well a person can beat the odds
•   Stunts: How well a person can perform death defying feats.
•   String: How well a person plays string instruments
•   Keyboard: How well a person plays piano and organs
•   Percussion: How well a person plays drums and percussion instruments.
•   Wind: How well a person plays flutes and other wind instruments.

Crafting:
•   Jeweler: Skill in crafting jewelry
•   Leatherwork: Skill in magic leather, hide and other types of armor
•   Armorer: Skill in building heavier armors and shields
•   Gunsmith: Skill in making bows, crossbows, firearms and the ammunition for them
•   Weaving: How well a person can weave magic in to cloth, wands, orbs and staffs
•   Blacksmith: Skill in crafting weaponry
•   Alchemist: Skill in making poisons and potions.
•   Trap making: Skill in crafting traps.
•   Enchanting: Skill in crafting magic items
•   Engineer: Skill in building technology items and objects.

Personal stats

Personal stats are how you influence your resources such as mana and stamina, your dodge and secondary defense and even your health. You get 15 points to spend on stats

•   Health: Each rank increases your maximum Hit point’s by your growth amount
•   Body: each ranks increases your maximum stamina by 1
•   Mind: each rank increase your maximum mana by 1
•   Constitution: Each rank increase your fortitude by 1
•   Reflexes: each rank increase your reflex by 1
•   Will Power: Each rank increase your Will by 1
•   Dodging: Each rank increases your dodge by 1
•   Might: You add your full amount of might ranks to damage you deal with heavy weapons and half to BAB damage
•   Finesse: You add your full amount of your finesse ranks to damage you deal with ranged weapons and light weapons. You also add half to your BAB damage
•   Focus: You add your full amount of focus ranks to the damage you deal with magic
•   BAB: BAB is used in many situations where other rolls do not apply such as grappling. Buying ranks in BAB makes these actions more effective. You add the whole BAB number to BAB attack rolls and half to BAB damage

Offline Krakow Sam

  • Moderator
  • Dungeon Sieger
  • *****
  • Posts: 24483
  • Stern dissaproval
    • View Profile
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2012, 03:29:52 pm »
I'll just summarise what Neo and Gorman and myself threw around in IRC so things don't get forgotten.


  • Crits with tables are fun
  • Having lots of feats is fun
  • Combine crits with feats. Double fun?
  • Characters start with 4(?) critical hit effects to be distributed across 20 critical hit slots. As more crit effects are gained they can be distributed at will throughout the table, being added and removed as the player sees fit.
  • All critical effects have a range of slots to which they can be assigned. The weakest and most basic can be spread across all 20 slots if the player so wishes, leading to a 100% chance of that critical effect on a critical hit. More powerful effects have a lower range, with the most powerful and rare effects only stretching to one slot (a 5% chance)
  • All combat feats and most weapons (and maybe other things) have an associated critical hit effect which can be slotted into the character's critical hit table to provide more options
  • Feats provide critical hit effects in addition to their base function. Examples: Improved Trip critical knocks enemy prone with severely penalised saving throw in addition to dealing damage. Cleave critical gives you a cleave attempt even if you don't kill the target, and it automatically hits.
  • Other feats affect critical chances and behaviour directly. Some increase your base chance of a critical hit (from nat 20 to 19-20 etc), others guarantee a crit if a certain prerequisite is met (attack hits versus an prone enemy that you tripped, guaranteed criticals for the rest of the encounter against an enemy which drops you to less than 10% hp, etc and a third type allow more control over what result you get from your crit table (roll twice and use desired result, Roll of 20 on crit table allows you to choose any other result etc)
  • A high level fighter character in the right circumstances could land a critical hit every round, then choose at will from a list of 20 deadly or tactically usefull effects.
  • MODULAR WEAPONS
  • All weapons have a damage stat and 3(?) slots for attributes. Attributes may include critical effects, alterations to critical hit chance, bonuses to certain actions such as disarm or feint, increased armor penetration and other good things. Examples: Punching dagger; 1d4 damage, +1 to critical threat range (19-20), +1 to damage multiplier critical effect (x3), New Critical Effect (Vital thrust: Target must make a fort save or begin bleeding out), Longsword; 1d8 Damage, Balanced: +4 to parry, New Critical Effect (Impalement: damage rolled on crit ignores all armor)
  • Wealthy and connected players may be able to commission custom weapons with their choice of attributes, or talented smiths can make their own.
  • Maybe modular magic too? Would be harder to implement.
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline PatMan33

  • Fable Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28788
  • M I RITE? STICKERS?
    • View Profile
    • DuckDuckGo
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2012, 03:32:24 pm »
I really like this! It's looking good, man.

One thing that does jump out at me is the sheer number of options. What is your plan on ensuring that everything is balanced?

Additionally, I see that you mention one of your goals as allowing players to make whatever character they want without limitation. Though I feel as if the lists (no matter how exhaustive) are going to be inherently limiting. Not saying you should, but do you feel like it would even be possible to find a way to unify a truly open-ended character creation system with a model that allows for standardization in terms of how associated stats are calculated?

Offline PatMan33

  • Fable Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28788
  • M I RITE? STICKERS?
    • View Profile
    • DuckDuckGo
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2012, 04:27:27 pm »
Just going in with a bit more depth, I'm someone that plays fighter-type characters almost exclusively. And the reason for doing so is because I dislike having to keep track of all the different spells and their impacts and all of that junk. I just want to attack when I want to attack and leave it at that. So I do not agree with the idea that my fighter should have as many options as a magic user in order to make them "equal", because the simplicity is exactly why I play a fighter in the first place.

The games I tend to enjoy most when it comes to playing a fighter typically have a good selection of passive abilities that I can gain over time. So I'll still get a bonus for working on a skill area but won't have to change the way I go about playing the game when I get new abilities. And I've seen that a good way to balance it with the magic users is that magic users or classes that offer additional attack modes tend to do more damage than my own passive skills. On the flip side, my attack rating is one of the best around, if not the best.

So passive skills are weaker than active skills. And a magic user is going to have active skills, whereas the fighter classes (some of them, not all - because I know folks that like complex fighter classes as well) are going to have mostly passive skills. And the difference there is made up by the fighter having a higher base attack rating.

That's the type of player I am, at least. I see fighters as inherently simpler to play and usually that is the case. And piling on more features and more busywork doesn't do much to level the field, it just means that none of the classes would appeal to me.


**EDIT**
Sorry, I think I posted this while you were working on another reply, as well.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 04:44:58 pm by PatMan33 »

Offline Gorman Conall

  • Space Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 2983
    • View Profile
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2012, 04:47:42 pm »
I really like this! It's looking good, man.

One thing that does jump out at me is the sheer number of options. What is your plan on ensuring that everything is balanced?

Additionally, I see that you mention one of your goals as allowing players to make whatever character they want without limitation. Though I feel as if the lists (no matter how exhaustive) are going to be inherently limiting. Not saying you should, but do you feel like it would even be possible to find a way to unify a truly open-ended character creation system with a model that allows for standardization in terms of how associated stats are calculated?

Its not easy, in the 3 years I've been working on it, it has been revised, redone, and scrapped many times. Balance is the most difficult part of its design, but my tests have been pretty good. I doubt ill achieve true perfect balance with something of this scale. Ill fix anything that's glaringly over or under powered, but at the end of the day if the character you make is fun to play, useful in the game, and is not greatly outmatched by your fellow players. Ill be happy.

I'm actually revising a lot of what I just posted right now. For the first time in the 3 years of working on it i have other peoples input. I mean, I've had my play testers, but they aren't exactly skilled game designers. Thanks to Sam and Neo I have have some new ideas on how things could work.


That's the type of player I am, at least. I see fighters as inherently simpler to play and usually that is the case. And piling on more features and more busywork doesn't do much to level the field, it just means that none of the classes would appeal to me.

That's the beauty of what i'm trying to accomplish, the game is classless and you build your character, you should be able to be a fighter with far more passive bonuses the active because its you who is choosing its components. At least, that's what i'm hoping.

On another note, me and Sam were talking about shields and parrying earlier. So i wanted to post some of the defensive feats I had, as well as my grappling system. Both are very subject to change, they were done before I started my latest revision.

 Block
Requirement: Shield
Hero point cost: 5

Description: You ready your shield and brace for impact.

Stamina cost: 2
Action Type: Move

Usage: You add your shield bonus as extra armor against the next attack to target you, the extra armor disappears after the attack, and your normal armor still takes damage as normal. Usable against nonphysical damage if using a shield

Rank 2 cost: 10
Details: When blocking melee attacks, you may make a basic attack as an immediate reaction.

Rank 3: Cost 5
Details: You may use block to against attacks made against adjacent ally’s.   

Parry
Requirement: 3 ranks in a heavy melee weapon
Hero Point cost: 5
 
Description: You attempt to parry a foes attack and reposition them to your advantage.

Stamina cost: 2
Action Type: move

Usage: You add your weapons dice to your dodge against the next physical melee attack target you, if your dodge exceeds the attack, you slide the enemy to one square adjacent to you and they are flatfooted against the next attack to target them.

Rank 2 cost: 10
Details: When successfully parrying an attack, you may make a basic attack as an immediate reaction.

Deflect Arrows
Requirements: 3 ranks in unarmed
Hero point cost: 5

Description: With lightning speed you knock away incoming projectiles.

Stamina cost: 2
Action type: move

Usage:  You add half of your ranks in unarmed to your dodge score (rounded down) against the next physical ranged attack that targets you.

Rank 2 Cost: 5
Details: You may catch the projectile instead, if it is a throw weapon you may throw it back as an immediate reaction using unarmed for the bonus.   

Evade
Requirements: 3 ranks in acrobatics
Hero Point cost 5

Description: You duck and roll out of the way of an attack.

Stamina cost: 3
Action type: Move

Usage: You add half of your acrobatics rank to your dodge score vs the next attack to target you. If the attack misses you shift one square, if the attack was melee you slide may slide the attacker in to the space you vacated.

Rank 2 upgrade cost: 3
Details: You may shift up to 2 additional squares.


Move Aside
Requirements: 3 ranks in dodge:
Hero Point cost: 5

Description: You step quick and send your enemies attack slamming in to his nearby friend.

Stamina cost 1:
Action type free

Usage: If you are flanked and an attack misses you, you may spend 1 stamina and redirect that attack to one of the other enemies flanking you.   

Absorb The Impact
Requirements: 3 ranks in endurance
Hero point cost: 5

Description: You brace for damage, attempting to shrug it off.

Stamina cost 2:
Action type: Move

Usage: Make a fort save +your endurance mod against the next attack to target you, if your roll exceeds the attack you reduce the damage by 2x your endurance rank.

Those were were all some of my defense feats, i'm aware that the shifting and forced movement stuff wont appeal to Neo and Sam, but I personally prefer a grid based system, but we can just hand wave that stuff for non grid or IRC games

And my old grappling system.

Grapple:  You may use a standard action to grapple a foe your size or smaller, you make an BAB or strength roll against a fort save, strength or BAB roll, if you succeed you grapple the foe. A grappled foe is flatfooted, can only attack you, can only attack with a light weapon or verbal magic. And rolls twice when attacking, taking the lower result. Another set of actions opens up when grappling. If grappling a foe from behind it is considered a back grapple, creatures that are back grappled are restrained and have no armor against attacks.

 Grapple strikes: You can perform grapple strikes on a foe as minor action. They deal 1d4+half mod using ether BAB or strength for the attack, they ignore armor and you can still make a standard attack

Grapple Drag: As a move action you can attempt to draw a foe with you, you make a strength or BAB check against a fort save, the defender gets a +2 bonus to the save, If you win you move half your speed and move the foe along to a space adjacent to you.

Grapple Throw: As a standard action you may attempt to throw a foe, you make an BAB or strength check against a fort save, the defender gets +2 to the save, on a success you throw the foe a number of squares equal to your roll divided by 10 and they land prone. If you fail, the grapple ends and the foe has a choice of shifting two squares, or grappling you for free.

Grapple switch: As a standard action you can attempt to switch from a grapple to a back grapple. You make an BAB or strength check against the foes fort save, the defender gets a +2 to the save, if you succeed you grapple the foe from behind, move to a square behind the foe. On a fail the grapple ends, the foe may shift two squares or grapple you for free.

Break Free: As a move action a grappled creature may attempt to break away from the grapple. The defender makes a reflex save against the grapplers fort save, on a success the grapple ends and the creature shifts two squares.

Counter Grapple:  A grappled creature can use a standard action to attempt to break a grapple and grapple back at the same time. The target makes a BAB or unarmed roll against the foes unarmed, strength or fort save, on a success the grapple breaks and the creature grapples them instead.


Offline PatMan33

  • Fable Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28788
  • M I RITE? STICKERS?
    • View Profile
    • DuckDuckGo
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2012, 04:57:30 pm »
Have you ever played games in the Etrian Odyssey video game series? They are not as open-ended as what you're describing here, but there are a lot of classes (more like templates) that have lots and lots of divergent paths within. So one monk is really really different than another monk. Might be worth looking at for some ideas. They're hard, though... really hard.

Offline Krakow Sam

  • Moderator
  • Dungeon Sieger
  • *****
  • Posts: 24483
  • Stern dissaproval
    • View Profile
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2012, 12:24:46 am »
Having seen those feats I am now totally behind Neo in his hatred of stamina points.

You've got these defensive abilities that you are spending a finite resource on, and they aren't even guaranteed to work?

Its immediately obvious that most of these feats would be garbage at low levels for that reason. As as exanple, Evade. So a low level character buys it with whatever scant XP he has. He wants to use it in battle and spends 3 of whatever low level of stamina he has. Lets assume he has a bit more than the prerequsitie amount of acrobatics skill, say 4. So he adds 2 to his dodge. What if the attack hits anyway? He's wasted 3 stamina. Looking at your race template there I see a human has 5 stamina.

Spending half your entire pool of an important character resource to get a meagre 2+ to dodge is not worthwhile at all.
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Gorman Conall

  • Space Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 2983
    • View Profile
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2012, 03:21:32 am »
Like I said in IRC, i'm not nearly as attached to stamina as I am mana, mostly because I've never liked stamina as a concept. It went okay in testing though, different races had different starting pools, but then you could buy ranks in body which boosted it. A few traits boosted it as well as some equipment (which again didn't make a lot of conceptual sense) then their was a mechanic in place that let you regain some during short rests. As for evade itself, it should cost 2 stamina not 3, not sure what happened there.

Ether way I could see getting rid of stamina one because I hate the concept and two it would further differentiate magic from martial, magic would have a resource pool to cast spells, martial wouldn't need one. I would have to balance active feats a different way, but I could see it working.

Offline Gorman Conall

  • Space Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 2983
    • View Profile
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2012, 06:25:19 am »
Here's what i'm looking at with the current revision.

Core Stats
Precision: Affects attack rolls with all weapons and magic.
Might: Affects damage with heavy weapons, also affects improvising.
Finesse:  Affects damage with light and ranged weapons, also affects improvising.
Focus: Affects damage with spells, also affects improvising.
Defense: Affects ability to avoid normal attacks, base defense stat
Fortitude: Affects ability to resist, poisons, forced movement and other constitutional attacks, secondary defense stat.
Reflex: Affects the ability to react to dodge certain attacks, secondary defense stat.
Will: Affects the ability to resist mental attacks, secondary defense stat.
Body: Affects maximum Hit Points
Mind: Affects maximum Mana
Physical Resistance: Affects Physical Armor
Magical Resistance: Affects  Magical Armor


Precision being the hit to stat for things makes it a good deal simpler, I can then keep the magic schools and weapon aptitudes as a specialization system like you guys suggested, boosting both attack and damage with that particular weapon or magic. Not all spells are damaging, so higher aptitudes might make spells have additional effects or something. If I try module weapons, perhaps you would need certain aptitudes in that weapon to unlock the slots?

I changed dodge to defense, it makes a bit more conceptual sense given that reflex saves are like pure dodging, where defense can be avoiding damage in many ways, especially since Sam suggested having shields boost dodge, it makes a lot more sense this way. Got rid of BAB, Might, Finesse and Focus will fill the role it had.

I did have armor working like this, basically if you had 10 Armor, damage had to be over 10 for it to affect you and you only took the difference, but each time you were hit, your  maximum armor was reduced by one until you get it repaired. Things like hammers had armor crushing which would drop it faster. In my original version you could start with 32 Armor, you would suffer in other areas but you could end up with it.

I'm thinking about instead, lowering the armor numbers and making it a straight up resistance, but stuff like hammers ignore a certain amount of it. If I do this, and I use shields for the defense stat and not armor. I can have a base stat that lets you increase your natural armor, which would just add to your armor number. I'm also toying with the idea of magical armor, but i'm not yet sold on it. I'm running a bunch of calculations and ideas now.

EDIT: I have gotten complaints about precision though, some don't like the idea of say, a magic specked wizard being able to pick up a crossbow and hit with it.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 06:36:10 am by Gorman Conall »

Offline PatMan33

  • Fable Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 28788
  • M I RITE? STICKERS?
    • View Profile
    • DuckDuckGo
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2012, 12:31:55 pm »
Spending half your entire pool of an important character resource to get a meagre 2+ to dodge is not worthwhile at all.

This gets at another point. Every skill should be useful and every skill should be worth spending a point on. And those points should have weight. That's one thing I like about D&D (generally) having stats and skills adjusted for a system that doesn't span a billion levels. By having a cap at level 30 or 40, it makes every decision that much more meaningful. Do your best to eliminate useless skills or skills that are a general waste of points. And try to maximize the usefulness of the remaining skills and abilities.

That's not to say that you need to have a low level cap. But think quality over quantity.

Here's another personal thing, but does anyone else hate having to keep track of magic armor and physical armor? I understand the mindset behind it but it always seemed redundant and like padding.

Offline Neoadept

  • Fooblitzky Fooble
  • *****
  • Posts: 4267
  • Has a nice hat
    • View Profile
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2012, 01:28:49 pm »
I have to agree with Sam that that's too many core stats, but you have to remember that not all stats have to be core.  In DnD, armor and saves are secondary stats, and I'd suggest you either do the same here or fold some of those into others.  Like, I'd fold the three saves into the three damage mods, so Reflex keys off of Finesse, Fort off of Might, and Will off of focus.  It makes sense that someone who can hit hard can take physical abuse, or that a more precise fighter will dodge better, or that a wizard is prepared for mental conflict.

If you're worried about that limiting saves, well, in a balanced game it should be hard to unite two conflicting ideas.  It's not as if you can't put in abilities that will raise the stat's defensive attributes without raising it's offensive side.  Damage and save mods just become secondary stats based on those.

And, of course, a little cross over from one stat to the next is never a bad thing.  Give Focus some martial abilities that aren't really magic, and give the other two a limited degree of magic.  Consider a character like Clock King from Batman the Animated Series.  He's not fast, he's not strong, but he can go toe to toe with the Dark Knight in a fist fight because he's analyzed his opponent so thoroughly.  That sounds like a Focus ability to me.  Or take rune magic or wands, where maybe you don't really need to know what you're doing so long as you can sketch out the right symbol or flick the wand just right, which falls more into finesse than focus.

The point is, core stats aren't usually a number that gets used all on it's own very often.  They're numbers that other abilities key off of.  They're modifiers, not absolutes, so don't be afraid to cram some together and delegate specific properties to secondary stats.
Nefarious?  Nearly.  Ne’er-do-well?  Never!  Neither nearly names this narrator.  Naive and knowledgeable, notorious and inscrutable, this nascent Nero is known naturally as Neoadept.

Offline Gorman Conall

  • Space Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 2983
    • View Profile
Re: Xigerath
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2012, 04:29:50 pm »
All the help is much appreciated so far guys, seriously its great.

I've been playing with weapons a bit, thought I'd show you guys and get some feedback. I realize the damage is going to be a bit off from what some of you are used to. (At least in 3.5) but its balanced from the ground up to accompany those numbers.

Weapons: Each Weapon has its own damage dice, damage type and unique mechanic. However they also have 3 modular slots. These slots each have a bonus; these bonuses are only applied when they are actively wielded. Furthermore you only benefit from these slots when you have a certain amount of ranks in that weapons aptitude. 2 ranks unlock the first slot, 4 ranks unlock the second slot and 6 ranks unlock the third slot. By paying 10 times the price of the weapon you can have the slots customized with the bonuses of your choice. Crafting professions can also influence the module slots.


Short Swords
Gold:
Type: Sword
One handed heavy
Damage: 1d8 Slashing
Trait: Quick draw-Drawing or sheathing this weapon is a free action
Slot 1: +1 Defense
Slot 2: +1 Attack
Slot 3: +1 Damage   

Long Swords
Gold:
Type: Sword
Two handed heavy
Damage: 2d6 Slashing
Trait: Defensive- you get a +2 to defense on turns where you have moved two or less squares (10 ft)
Slot 1: +4 Parry attempts
Slot 2: +1 Defense
Slot 3: Impalement (Critical hits ignore armor)

Rapier
Gold:
Type: Sword
One Handed Light
Damage: 1d6 piercing
Trait: Precise Point- you roll a d4 with a d20 on attack rolls.
Slot 1:+1 Critical threat
Slot 2:+1 Critical threat
Slot 3: +3 attack and defense if other hand is empty.

Katana
Gold:
Type: Sword
Two handed light
Damage: 1d8 slashing
Trait: Quick Strike- When targeted by a melee attack, you make a basic melee attack first.
Slot 1: +1 Damage
Slot 2: +1 Defense
Slot 3: +1 Critical threat   

Double Sword
Gold
Type: Sword
Two handed heavy
Damage: 1d8 slashing
Trait: Double Strike- you make two attacks when attacking. -1 movement
Slot 1: +1 defense
Slot 2:+4 disarm attempts
Slot 3: +1 Damage   

Great Sword
Gold:
Type: Sword
Two Handed heavy
Damage: 2d10 slashing
Trait: Brutality 1, - brutal weapons reroll any damage dice that show or are below its brutalatilty number. -1 movement
Slot: 1 +1 Critical threat
Slot: 2 +4 Sunder attempts
Slot: 3 +1 Brutality