Author Topic: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG  (Read 10194 times)

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Offline Yuu

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Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« on: October 17, 2011, 04:13:53 am »
So, what is it?  ???

Does it even exist?  :P

How do we treat stuff like combat range and formations, asteroid belts and MAD?

Personally, I'm not sure about combat ranges and formations since it seems to vary from RP to RP. Though, yeah, I still think we should make up our minds about this one to make things more consistent and adjust any stats on our ships that might need some tweaking, like weapon ranges and movement speeds.

Asteroid belts and planetary rings couldn't be used for cover at all, let alone as obstacles for fighters and ships to maneuver or plow through. They're just too diffused to be of any value, since asteroid thickets are, naturally speaking, impossible unless built on purpose.   :(

MAD, on the other hand, I really, really think we should formulate some kind of canon reason for why nobody is paranoid about MAD despite diplomatic tensions and widespread use of FTL drives by pirates and civilians alike. An extremely secure planet-wide point defense system perhaps? However, that might be a problem for less developed worlds, unless the governments are willing to cover each and every planet completely, which might end up being prohibitively expensive.   :-\


So, what do you guys think?   ???

If we settle it now, it would make things much easier for people who write the battles, not to mention avoid inconsistencies.



Offline UFO King

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2011, 03:29:16 pm »
1. There is no FTL travel, strictly speaking. Only hyperdrives which create wormholes, and warp drives that bend space. Besides, only a handful of species use the warp drive.
2. Actually, planetary rings would be pretty good for cover, but you wouldn't want to hide in them. Asteroid belts you got right.
3. What do you mean by MAD?

I've got an idea. I could write up a whole topic on explanations for and on the physics of this universe. It could explain away absolutely everything from thermodynamics to stealth in an easy-to-understand way. No more inconsistencies. What do you say?
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Offline GroxGlitch

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2011, 04:10:57 pm »
1. There is no FTL travel, strictly speaking. Only hyperdrives which create wormholes, and warp drives that bend space. Besides, only a handful of species use the warp drive.
2. Actually, planetary rings would be pretty good for cover, but you wouldn't want to hide in them. Asteroid belts you got right.
3. What do you mean by MAD?

I've got an idea. I could write up a whole topic on explanations for and on the physics of this universe. It could explain away absolutely everything from thermodynamics to stealth in an easy-to-understand way. No more inconsistencies. What do you say?
YES YES YES YES YES.
That is all.

Offline UFO King

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Re: Current Consensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2011, 09:26:39 pm »
Oh boy! I'll get it up in a few days! (I've got a few other projects going on too right now.)

Have no fear, for soon you shall all know the inner workings of artificial gravity!
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Offline Yuu

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2011, 02:32:17 am »
I've got an idea. I could write up a whole topic on explanations for and on the physics of this universe. It could explain away absolutely everything from thermodynamics to stealth in an easy-to-understand way. No more inconsistencies. What do you say?
YES YES YES YES YES.
That is all.

AWW YEAH!


In other words: Yes.



3. What do you mean by MAD?


"All the energy put into achieving that velocity had transformed the Intruder into a kinetic storage device of nightmarish design. If it struck a world, every gram of the vessel's substance would be received by that world as the target in a linear accelerator receives a spray of relativistic buckshot. Someone, somewhere, had built and was putting to use a relativistic bomb -- a giant, roving atom smasher aimed at worlds...

The gamma-ray shine of the decelerating half was also detectable, but it made no difference. One of the iron rules of relativistic bombardment was that if you could see something approaching at 92 percent of light speed, it was never where you saw it when you saw it, but was practically upon you...

In the forests below, lakes caught the first rays of the rising Sun and threw them back into space. Abandoning the two-dimensional sprawl of twentieth-century cities, Sri Lanka Tower, and others like it, had been erected in the world's rain forests and farmlands, leaving the countryside virtually uninhabited. Even in Africa, where more than a hundred city arcologies had risen, nature was beginning to renew itself. It was a good day to be alive, she told herself, taking in the peace of the garden. Then, looking east, she saw it coming -- at least her eyes began to register it -- but her optic nerves did not last long enough to transmit what the eyes had seen.

It was quite small for what it could do -- small enough to fit into an average-sized living room -- but it was moving at 92 percent of light speed when it touched Earth's atmosphere. A spear point of light appeared, so intense that the air below snapped away from it, creating a low-density tunnel through which the object descended. The walls of the tunnel were a plasma boundary layer, six and a half kilometers wide and more than 160 deep -- the flaming spear that Virginia's eyes began to register -- with every square foot of its surface radiating a trillion watts, and still its destructive potential was but fractionally spent.

Thirty-three kilometers above the Indian Ocean, the point began to encounter too much air. It tunneled down only eight kilometers more, then stalled and detonated, less than two-thousandths of a second after crossing the orbits of Earth's nearest artificial satellites.

Virginia was more than three hundred kilometers away when the light burst toward her. Every nerve ending in her body began to record a strange, prickling sensation -- the sheer pressure of photons trying to push her backward. No shadows were cast anywhere in the tower, so bright was the glare. It pierced walls, ceramic beams, notepads, and people -- four hundred thousand people. The maglev terminal connecting Sri Lanka Tower to London and Sydney, the waste treatment centers that sustained the lakes and farms, all the shops, theaters, and apartments liquefied instantly. The structure began to slip and crash like a giant waterfall, but gravity could not yank it down fast enough. The Tower became vapor before it could fall half a meter. At the vanished city's feet, the trees of the forest were no longer able to cast shadows; they had themselves become long shadows of carbonized dust on the ground.

In Kandy and Columbo, where sidewalks steamed, the relativistic onslaught was unfinished. The electromagnetic pulse alone killed every living thing as far away as Bombay and the Maldives. All of India south of the Godavari River became an instant microwave oven. Nearer the epicenter, Demon Rock glowed with a fierce red heat, then fractured down its center, as if to herald the second coming of the tyrant it memorialized. The air blast followed, surging out of the Indian Ocean -- faster than sound -- flattening whatever still stood. As it slashed north through Jaffna and Madurai, the wave front was met and overpowered by shocks rushing out from strikes in central and southern India.

Across the face of the planet, without warning, thousands of flaming swords pierced the sky...

Then out of no where -- out of the deep impersonal nowhere -- came a bombardment that even the science fiction writers had failed to entertain.

Just nine days short of America's tricentennial celebrations, every inhabited planetary surface in the solar system had been wiped clean by relativistic bombs. Research centers on Mars, Europa, and Ganymede were silent; even tiny Phobos and Moo-kau were silent. Port Chaffee was silent. New York, Colombo, Wellington, the Mercury Power Project and the Asimov Array. Silent. Silent. Silent.

A Valkyrie rocket's transmission of Mercury's surface had revealed thousands of saucer-shaped depressions where only hours before had existed a planet-spanning carpet of solar panels. The transmission had lasted only a few seconds -- just long enough for Isak to realize there would be no more of the self-replicating robots that had built the array of panels and accelerators, just long enough for him to understand that humanity no longer possessed a fuel source for its antimatter rockets -- and then the transmission had ceased abruptly as the Valkyrie disappeared in a silent white glare.

Presently, most of the station's scopes and spectrographs were turning Earthward, and Isak found it impossible to believe what they revealed. The Moon rising over Africa from behind Earth was peppered with new fields of craters. The planet below looked like a ball of cotton stained grayish yellow. The top five meters of ocean had boiled off under the assault, and sea level air was three times denser than the day before -- and twice as hot...

The sobering truth is that relativistic civilizations are a potential nightmare to anyone living within range of them. The problem is that objects traveling at an appreciable fraction of light speed are never where you see them when you see them (i.e., light-speed lag). Relativistic rockets, if their owners turn out to be less than benevolent, are both totally unstoppable and totally destructive. A starship weighing in at 1,500 tons (approximately the weight of a fully fueled space shuttle sitting on the launchpad) impacting an earthlike planet at "only" 30 percent of lightspeed will release 1.5 million megatons of energy -- an explosive force equivalent to 150 times today's global nuclear arsenal... (ed note: this means the freaking thing has about nine hundred mega-Ricks of damage!)

The most humbling feature of the relativistic bomb is that even if you happen to see it coming, its exact motion and position can never be determined; and given a technology even a hundred orders of magnitude above our own, you cannot hope to intercept one of these weapons. It often happens, in these discussions, that an expression from the old west arises: "God made some men bigger and stronger than others, but Mr. Colt made all men equal." Variations on Mr. Colt's weapon are still popular today, even in a society that possesses hydrogen bombs. Similarly, no matter how advanced civilizations grow, the relativistic bomb is not likely to go away..."


- Excerpt from The Killing Star by Charles Pelligrino and George Zebrowski


And the RG isn't necessarily the most politically stable of galaxies.   :-\



1. There is no FTL travel, strictly speaking. Only hyperdrives which create wormholes, and warp drives that bend space. Besides, only a handful of species use the warp drive.

I know that, but that's somewhat beside the point since some guys do have fraction of c drives currently in service. And considering the presence of terrorists, pirates and generally genocidal civilizatinos out there, it's kinda unsettling.

In any case, I've always thought of using a comprehensive "net" of FTL-sensor-equipped high-velocity defenses, both in and out of normal space, to defend vital worlds and the like. But then I found that using such a system still wouldn't be able to negate the fact that some commercial space craft [probably cargo-carrying ones], which usually "fly too low" to be intercepted in time, still possess some pretty fast drives, some of which can reach a considerable fraction of c. That, or the enemy military could just spam unmanned ship hulls with fraction of c drives strapped on to them.   :-\

And then there's the fact that if this is implemented, it'd be mind-bogglingly expensive, potentially as expensive as a full blown fleet. For each planet protected. Basically, for civilizations that have only a handful of inhabited worlds, it would be somewhat financially feasible. But for expansive civilizations, it'd be far too expensive, which would mean outer worlds are insufficiently guarded, which would scare off potential colonists and investors.   :(

I was also thinking of just placing a surface-wide kinetic barrier as an alternative, though that would be retardedly expensive, both time and power wise, and prone to technical problems and sabotage.

So yeah, I got nothin'...   :S


2. Actually, planetary rings would be pretty good for cover, but you wouldn't want to hide in them. Asteroid belts you got right.

Aren't they still too small for anything larger than a fighter, though?   ???
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 02:42:37 am by Yuu »

Offline Crazen

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2011, 10:27:33 am »
your aware astroids are huge, right?
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Offline Yuu

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2011, 04:06:31 pm »
I was talking about the debris that make up most planetary rings.

As for asteroids, it still wouldn't work since even asteroids in the belt are so far apart that any enemy with a good telescope and mapping system will already know that you're headed to that one particular asteroid. By the time you get there, a smart enemy has already fired several shots ahead of your traveling path, or if they have them, sent several high-powered missiles or drones to ambush you. If the enemy has allies, it could have also as easily relayed info about your trajectory to them and ordered them to flank you.

Then there's the fact that a significant number of asteroids have the same consistency as dirt.   :-\

Asteroid cover only makes sense if you have ridiculously fast propulsion systems, that are able to retain maneuverability. But by that point, it's likely you're already powerful enough to shoot through even the densest of asteroids in the first place.

Offline omegatripod

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2011, 09:47:47 pm »
There's no friction in space, and there are still three dimensions to move about. There's no need for aerodynamics, and you need reverse thrust to slow down.

So it's not like aerial combat (Star Wars) or naval combat (Star Trek sometimes); space combat is like submarine warfare.

With Ohio-sized subs.

In an endless ocean.

Made of teflon.

Offline Yuu

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2011, 06:13:55 am »
Exactly.

And I'm actually currently designing my little project under that premise, since I considered that Viri Voltei space warfare just wasn't realistic enough even as it was.

Prepare to see a lot of practical ships, as well as strategies and tactics, once I'm done refining them for my new premise.  :)

Offline Kitkat

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2011, 07:07:43 pm »
I really think that RPs that take place as space battles should be handled in a strategy game-like way, with a visual display of the current goings-on frequently updated.

Also we need more pictures when we move. Lots more. Especially in RPs.
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Offline Yuu

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2011, 09:39:38 pm »
While I'm not in favor of a drastic conversion, maybe we could at least get a semblance of each nation's military strength?

For example, I've seen some instances where a given race's fleet numbers fluctuated between "less than a dozen" and "an unholy combination of Zerg rushing and Holy Terra".

Also, if we took tabs on stuff like this, it would make it much, much easier to plan things in a strategic scale, ie. no more making fleets out of thin air to deal with a threat. This would not just make the strategic maneuvers that we cook up in our heads much more sensible, but also motivate people to actually think about where they should place their forces, as well as give all of us a greater appreciation of logistics' role in the military. That, and setting up semi-hard numbers for the military would also require people to budget it appropriately, thus making each nations economical capacity more than just a bunch of useless numbers. The same goes for colonies and the labor pools which they contribute.

Also, tech-levels. The more advanced a thing is, the more expensive it is. There will probably be some concessions, though, in certain circumstances. Like say, nations specializing in gravity tech will probably be able to build gravity-based weapons more cheaply than a nation that specializes in say lasers, tophats or monocles, or lasers mounted on tophats while also wearing a monocle.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 09:48:50 pm by Yuu »

Offline Kitkat

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2011, 09:47:20 pm »
Yes, exactly. A living world, not just stuff people are saying.
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Offline UFO King

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2011, 09:54:22 pm »
Righto! This is why maps are very important. They shape both life and plot! Here's an example: During our "maps are bad" phase, the Photos were quite active in the war against the PSR. But according to the official galactic map, the two species were on opposite sides of the galaxy! I've turned this into a plot point because it reinforces the ideas that the Photos are very militaristic, and to many other species have no business tromping around everywhere.

I wasn't very keen on the military aspects of science fiction, but now I see its importance. You're right; we've got to establish solid statistics and descriptions of the inetrstellar squadrons!
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Offline Yuu

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2011, 10:27:14 pm »
Indeed.


During our "maps are bad" phase, the Photos were quite active in the war against the PSR. But according to the official galactic map, the two species were on opposite sides of the galaxy! I've turned this into a plot point because it reinforces the ideas that the Photos are very militaristic, and to many other species have no business tromping around everywhere.

The Photos' seat of government is a giant military base with three fully dedicated anti-space guns, nine primary shield generators, its own air wing and armored division, and a whole menagerie smaller guns, point defenses and silos, both discreet and indiscreet.

I'm pretty sure everyone already knew that they were militaristic.  :P

Or paranoid.

Then again, considering the stuff that regularly happens in this galaxy, I really can't blame them. ^_^

Still, you're right on how this would be perceived in the eyes of the common galactic citizen, especially after that recent mind-altering pathogen incident.

And then there's the corporate media. >_>

Diplomacy suddenly became a thousand times harder after I mentioned that last sentence, didn't it? -_-
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 10:29:32 pm by Yuu »

Offline GroxGlitch

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2011, 09:28:44 pm »
The reason I've always had for the Photos being able to turn up all over the place was far-flung colonies all over the place. And the mind altering pathogen thing = bad solution for a bad, shallow plot establishment on my part. I've got my good moment but generally I can go back and slap myself in the face for doing things one way when they really would have been easier to read and make more sense another way.
For example, in that position, I had Val'ones going all "rage-a-holic" when in reality he's more of a cool, collected smart@$$ (or at least tries to be). Considering that was totally out of character and really made no sense, I had to come up with something, hence the pathogen thing.
...
Aaaaaanyway, I like the concept of a map, it helps keep boarders clean-cut and established. Especially with the "tromping around everywhere" thing.
As for logistics, the whole of the space fleet of the Photos comprises about a million vessels, spread out into task forces of 25 ships. Now, task forces are your bread-and-butter deployment for the Photos: they run patrol, scouting, pickets, pretty much everything. Also, something that I'm very aware of and working to fix, is their over-use of capital ships. The Photos tend to dreadie-spam, and I've been slowly attempting to introduce smaller and smaller ship classes. So far it's expanded from their single dreadnought class to
1 Dreadnought (Posideon, I had plans to phase this out post the Nameless invasion but that fell through, perhaps I'll just do it anyway)
1 Assault Ship (Can't remember the name >.<)
1 Carrier (Same for this >.>)
1 Transport (Hothgar, only been seen as a Waratica mech' transport, but it's really a big hauler retrofitted for Waratica use)
And I believe there are some smaller ones, but I can't remember. I'm currently working on a Frigate-class and Destroyer class, but they were delayed by the fact that I've had a nasty ear infection the last few days and really haven't been able to do too much of anything. Now that it's for the most part cleared up, I'll hopefully have those up soon.
The reason the Photos can run such a vast fleet (1,000,000 ships, for a direct number?) is the fact that pretty much every developed planet of theirs (aka MOST OF THEM) sports at least one shipyard.
The reason for the Photos' high level of militancy is their view of being guardians, peacekeepers, ect ect. While, of course, you always have opinion and differing views getting in the way of things, they at least try to make everyone happy.
Also, there's a large level of plot-armor, plot-guns, ect ect factored in here. Really, the need for any major ground military is pretty much non-existent, as I believe it was Omega that pointed out; anything a few squads of infantry or a tank can do, a few well-placed orbital shots can do just as well if not better.
Also factor Rule of Cool: Gigantic 50-foot tall Walkers? Fear factor and what not may apply, but you've still got to factor that it's a fire magnet for everything within a few nautical miles, including those nice, big, heavily armed naval vessels floating in orbit.

Offline UFO King

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2011, 10:20:15 pm »
Which is why they discovered Minovsky particles. ;)

You can still retcon a bit, you know. I see nothing wrong with it as long as 1.you only change relatively minor things and 2.it deserves to be altered.

Are there planetary shields? Because I think that would really help out justifying ground troops. Actually, I think we already established them when Alkara blew up; they're the reason Khuris wasn't entirely incinerated.
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Offline Kitkat

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2011, 10:26:14 pm »
Funny thing about those shields: They were there for 10 centuries or more. That's the reason why their cities are shaped like satellite dishes (besides keeping foliage out).

I have a lot of things about the Bino that I never got the opportunity to tell.
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Offline Yuu

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2011, 12:07:55 am »
Funny thing about those shields: They were there for 10 centuries or more. That's the reason why their cities are shaped like satellite dishes (besides keeping foliage out).

Wild foliage. The bane of urban revitalization committees everywhere.  :I


Considering that was totally out of character and really made no sense, I had to come up with something, hence the pathogen thing.

Talking about pathogens, what's your opinion on the Infection?

I was thinking of asking Kitkat whether it'd be okay for him if I borrowed an alternate universe version of the Talsenreave. Make it one of those "we can only keep this millimeter-wide portal open for so long, so you better listen up" scenarios.

If he says yes, I have a story that'd neatly tie up every loose end we have right now, including the Infection, without resorting to drastically retconning entire races. It'd basically come down to a sudden massive crackdown on the people responsible for the Nameless Incident before they've gotten their plans set. The closest sci-fi equivalent to this that I could think of is Shepherd's whole MO in Mass Effect 2, so if you want to, I could make the final infiltration part into an RP.

If anyone has a question about this, you're free to inquire more about it, politely.


As for logistics, the whole of the space fleet of the Photos comprises about a million vessels, spread out into task forces of 25 ships.

Umm...

"Agh, let the sweeper units find that little rachet in the works. For now we have an invasion to cripple." Ryo'lis said, peering out at the mass collection of ships that had collected at his command; he had given order for every Photos ship in the galaxy to gather at this location, and the armada numbered in the millions.

... from the very first post of an RP thread.


1 Transport (Hothgar, only been seen as a Waratica mech' transport, but it's really a big hauler retrofitted for Waratica use)

So, the C130-Hercules is essentially the spiritual liege of the Hothgar?

Oh, and if you're doing ships, don't forget about the Zeront too. Always wanted to see more of those.

They're sooooo cute.  :3  As long as I'm not on the business end of their weapons.  xp


Now that it's for the most part cleared up, I'll hopefully have those up soon.

Nice to hear you're doing fine now.   :)

Get it?

I suck at puns.

Though, seriously, nice to know you're alright.


Fear factor and what not may apply,

Indeed.

A trained soldier in a tactically realistic setting would laugh at a mech instead of being afraid.

The only exception would be in situations where the soldier knows that the enemy is fully aware that mechs are inefficient and is just using them to drive home the point that the soldier is so far beneath them that he's simply using a mech just for the heck of it.


but you've still got to factor that it's a fire magnet for everything within a few nautical miles, including those nice, big, heavily armed naval vessels floating in orbit.

Unless said vehicle happens to be capable of shooting capital ships out of orbit and swatting down any projectiles before it reaches its incredibly durable and force-field enforced armor.   ;)

Oh, wait, wrong vehicle.

Try this one instead.



Are there planetary shields? Because I think that would really help out justifying ground troops. Actually, I think we already established them when Alkara blew up; they're the reason Khuris wasn't entirely incinerated.

There's still the problem of size, though.

Planets are big and protecting every inch of land is mind-blowingly expensive. And even if we go by the cheap route of protecting the he cities alone, it will still not do a colony any good if the enemy could just do this to the unshielded parts, thereby rendering the place practically inhospitable to anyone without a hazmat suit, which I'd like to aptly call the Khuris Effect.   :-\

The safest bet is really to just build your cities in space.


I have a lot of things about the Bino that I never got the opportunity to tell.

Sweet.  :)

Offline UFO King

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2011, 01:10:57 am »
So was there a precursor species that put up the shields, or are the Bino technologically slow in development like Harry Turtledove's Race?

The Nameless Invasion wasn't real all along, remember? Anyway, what's this Infection thing again?

Building space cities is safer? I somewhat doubt that. Someone could argue for hours on ends in favor of either side, actually. You make it sound like one has to cover their couch, chandelier and bookcase in tinfoil when all you need to do is cover the roof with it. With Dyson Ring satellites to collect solar power, the energy should be no problem. Put up a big spherical electromagnetic field, and you're set.

I should note that gravity is definitely a worse choice than electromagnetism when it comes to shields and such. After all, gravity is the weakest of the four fundamental forces. You should probably only use it when the enemy uses gravity-based weaponry, which is rare outside tractor beams. Just sayin'.
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Offline Yuu

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2011, 03:53:28 am »
So was there a precursor species that put up the shields, or are the Bino technologically slow in development like Harry Turtledove's Race?

I dunno. Those guys are too slow even for most speculative fictions' standards.  :D

The Race would probably score a solid '2' on DG's progressiveness scale, which I'm sure isn't the case with the Bino's datasheet.


The Nameless Invasion wasn't real all along, remember?

The invasion, not the build-up that happened around it, something which goes all the way back to during the Communicant War.

Among the list of things that would disappear if I spammed the Retconium warheads...

  • The Orealyianis. All of it.
  • The Atomna.
  • The Galactic Protection Agency.
  • The roleplaying Jack Zetter recently did. Most of it, at least.

It would basically gut a large chunk of the RG if I went any further.


Anyway, what's this Infection thing again?

Search function...


Building space cities is safer?

Space cities can be evacuated to deep space or other systems. On top of this, they can also travel in complex and difficult to predict patterns if someone declares war on them. The smaller ones could also blend more easily if they stick to asteroids, especially when said asteroid is part of a large asteroid field. As a last resort, they can also fight back more easily due to not living on the bottom of a gravity well.

I concede that if a prolonged siege was to occur, the planet-based one would be better off. However, that would be missing the point that space cities are meant for running and hiding instead of tanking attacks.

Also, unless a race likes to build their planet-based cities the same way Stargate's Alterans did with the Atlantis, they're sitting ducks.   :-\


You make it sound like one has to cover their couch, chandelier and bookcase in tinfoil when all you need to do is cover the roof with it.

What I'm trying to say is that planet-based cities will lose most of their merits (breathable atmosphere, large ecosystem, etc.) over space-based colonies if the rest of the planet's surface is transformed into something akin to the surface of Venus, a circumstance which can only be averted if you have either a planet-sized shield or a lot of active defenses, both of which are prohibitively expensive for most non-core colonies.


With Dyson Ring satellites to collect solar power, the energy should be no problem. Put up a big spherical electromagnetic field, and you're set.

And every single one of our planets could afford such monumental projects?

I'm not doubting our technological capacity to do all of this. What I'm doubting is whether our economies could handle this.


I should note that gravity is definitely a worse choice than electromagnetism when it comes to shields and such. After all, gravity is the weakest of the four fundamental forces. You should probably only use it when the enemy uses gravity-based weaponry, which is rare outside tractor beams. Just sayin'.

It was not a statement of efficiency, but an example of "faction bonuses."

For example: South Korea is the largest ship builder in the world. I would naturally expect that when it comes to building most types of navy ships, they can build them more efficiently compared to a country like Switzerland.

Offline UFO King

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2011, 03:03:46 pm »
Oh man, I laughed out loud at Korea-Switzerland.

Yeah, I suppose the economies wouldn't be terribly suited for that. I'll bet that a significant portion of species have the same planet-defending tactics that the humans of Mass Effect used at Shanxi: Keep a small guard at the colony, and have a much larger and more powerful reserve force waiting only a few hours away nearer to the center of the territories.

Sounds to me like those Retconium warheads are in the wrong hands. I may need to persuade you to dismantle some of it, because destroying the GPA would completely derail the last decade or so of the galactic timeline and render all that precious Perrachi history moot. Orealyianis and Atomna I can understand, but you don't touch the GPA, man. It's not yours anymore; it belongs to everyone, and like I said was crucial to the last few years of galactic development. It's like if Britain wanted to dismantle the UN in 1959.
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Offline Yuu

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2011, 08:11:51 pm »
Orealyianis and Atomna I can understand, but you don't touch the GPA, man. It's not yours anymore; it belongs to everyone, and like I said was crucial to the last few years of galactic development.

Exactly.

That's why I'm averse to making one of the SPA members run for the role of Director.   :)


Oh, and don't worry, it wouldn't involve stuff like the LACs.

It'll be more along the lines of Mass Effect 1 and 2, but with Sovereign confined to the ICU.



By the way, it seems we haven't chosen any emergency substitute for the GPA's HQ yet.

Currently, it's seated in Tower One, right beside Tower Two which is the SPA HQ.

The accidental parallels to a certain real world complex is more than making me a bit uncertain.  >_>

Have any easily defensible planets in mind that can serve as secondary HQ?   ???
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 08:16:21 pm by Yuu »

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2011, 08:26:27 pm »
/coughPhotisecough/

Offline UFO King

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2011, 09:09:37 pm »
You know what? I might have to break out a pretty dang big Retconium (goshdarnit Yuu I love that word) bomb here. I've done the math... Technically, the PSR should be 1,000 light years in diameter, which seems way too big for a species that's only been around so long. Mark Rosenfelder's Incatena books have humanity within a mere 50 ly sphere and meeting at least 8 other sapient alien species. By that math, Perrachi space should contain over two thousand sapient races. Keep in mind that the Incatena may be comic, but it's also hard sci-fi!

So here's my proposal: Abandon the concept of a galaxy-spanning area in favor of focusing on a relatively much smaller area. If this sounds a bit repellent to you, consider this: As I said we used to not care about the maps too much, and back in the days of the OG this is exactly what they did! Seriously, go check out the galaxy map threads: It was all in one quadrant with dozens of spacefaring species and who knows how many more!

I think my idea is pretty good, although we've got to remember that a lot of species would be more technologically primitive (but nonetheless sapient). And I've got only 10 Perrachi nations in 10 star systems across a thousand light years while the Incatena has around 50 human nations across 50 light years! What a waste of space! By focusing on a specific area we can have the galaxy be larger than 9,000 ly (but preferably not quite as huge as the Milky Way). The only downside I can possibly see here is that "on the other side of the galaxy" sounds romantic. But then what about "halfway across the Classical Expanse" or "at the heart of the Arrowhead Nexus"? Much more descriptive than the generic "galaxy"!

So what do you think? Are you willing to adopt a good deal of plausibility along with a sense of wonder at the galaxy's unexplored vastness not to mention nice creative names for nebulae, etc. in exchange for...basically nothing? How does that deal sound, eh? ;)
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Offline GroxGlitch

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2011, 09:22:24 pm »
No.
Rather than make a huuuge retcon that EVERYONE has to go back and fix a metric crapton of stuff, why don't you just retcon the Perrachi?
Also, 8 other sapient alien species? Within 50 lightyears?
Come now. Let's not just blow Drake's Equation entirely to the wind here.
If memory serves, not even ME's that bad.
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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2011, 09:47:55 pm »
Drake's Theory is bull****. That said, I like UFO's idea. 'The Classical Expanse' actually sounds like some awesome ****. In an area of 1000 LY with a hundred different species sounds a lot more fun than a whole galaxy with the same amount.
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Offline Yuu

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2011, 10:15:56 pm »
Umm, guys?  :-[


If I recall correctly, we already have something to that primarily in the form of the Right Lower Quadrant. The only races that we know of in there are Darth Grievi's races, and even then they're pretty enigmatic, all things considered.

Additionally, here's a map.  :)



I purposefully over-exaggerated the occupied territories, but even then it's clear that over four-fifths of the galaxy is no-man's land.

The only real civilized clusters of space that we know of are the Local Sector, the Goonal-Perrachi-Bino-Ni'Calls Tetralogy, the Photos core worlds, and the Old Galaxy, the latter still accounts for over 90% of civilized space. All in all, these places could all fit in the outer rim of a single quadrant, with a lot of space to spare. It's not that we're numerous, we're just spread out, which is in a way far creepier compared to when we're all huddled together. Especially once it sinks in that threats could attack us from any direction, and that our comparatively more vulnerable supply lines are gonna be hard to protect.   :o

To compare it to the real world, the OG was a pair of two large islands in an ocean full of sea monsters. The RG is an archipelago of significantly smaller islands located in that same ocean.

OR for a more historical comparison, the OG was Renaissance Continental Europe and RG is the Wild Wild West.   :)

Speaking of primitives, aside from the vast amount of undiscovered species, most of the inner rim is also basically lawless territory, so there goes a visible chunk of the OG as well.

I think the problem is more about our brains tricking us subconsciously into thinking that all of those claimed territories are already explored. If we had more accurate maps showing just how far apart inhabited are, the problem would be lessened.  :)

In any case, I think Grox could make it so that the Photos use a mix of "spray and pray" and "colony pack" when it comes to colonization strategy. Basically, each "colony pack" consists of a small city, some defenses, and a factory that can make more "colony packs" along the way (The latter would rely on very extensive mass-cloning, though). All packs are then sent pretty much in all directions, some ending up as far as the USSS side of the galaxy. After a while, a lot of these packs would settle down and begin pumping out packs en-masse, just like Photise.

If that could be done, it's only a matter of explaining that while Photos may be comparatively the same, numbers wise, it has far larger claimed territory due to how extremely diluted they are.

Density-wise, they could be explained as the equivalent of Space-Siberia.

Really, the only thing preventing the above is a certain canon build rate in the creature thread (almost half a century or so for the "mere" 40 floor tall and 20 floor deep High Command alone, IIRC), and the people's view on mass-cloning. The former, if it's any indication of the Photos' build rate for ships, simply wouldn't be enough to create enough colony packs in the needed span of time. The latter, I'm unsure of.   :-\

TL;DR need more info on Photos colonization methods.

Offline UFO King

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2011, 02:53:28 am »
Drake's Theory is bull****. That said, I like UFO's idea. 'The Classical Expanse' actually sounds like some awesome ****. In an area of 1000 LY with a hundred different species sounds a lot more fun than a whole galaxy with the same amount.
Thanks, Badger and Yuu! The site was inexplicably down for a few hours for me, so this reply is a little late:

It's comic as in funny, not graphic novels. And Mass Effect clearly stated that everybody in total had explored less than 1% of all the stars in the galaxy. The same exact statistic is said in the Incatena (because it has no FTL so humans explored steadily), and I'm pretty sure ME has more than 8 species.

The Drake Equation? Lemme clarify something for you (in a not-rude voice, because obviously isn't auditory): That equation not only doesn't take a lot of important factors into account, but is entirely hypothetical. It has produced no solid numbers because we don't have the solid numbers it asks for. You could get anywhere from one to a million species from that useless thing, which does nothing but take in vapor and churn out vapor. Thus, I really don't understand why you're relying on it when it has no answer and is unfit for making the answer anyway. My figures are admittedly guesses, but I'm just going by what rough statistics we have on extrasolar planets and a bit of Rule of Cool here and there.

So I'm just trying to make this more plausible, not to mention open up a vast frontier for exploration. Who doesn't want to go explore an entire galaxy? Your other option is to switch to a series of "gates", Mass Relay-type things that let you go across the galaxy easily but bypass untold billions of star systems. Can't we just keep it simple?

Finally, everyone making painstaking retcons is the exact opposite of what I want. The point here is to start anew, right? Fresh pioneering spirit? We just switch to a galactic slice and save ourselves the trouble of filling in that unbelievably massive empty space with thousands of unique planets, instead opting for mere hundreds at most.

Yuu has some really good points, but overall I prefer the idea of the RG areas being close to but only recently in contact with the OG. 1000x1000 ly sounds good to me. GG, I totally understand your points, but overall it just seems you misunderstood and I didn't clarify well enough.
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Offline GroxGlitch

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2011, 06:42:43 am »
Ok, granted, I was off. I've only learned slight amounts of Drake's Equation. That and I've never actually played ME just read up on the back story and the like.
I didn't like the concept and I wanted to at least -try- to back up what I was saying. Evidently that failed  miserably >.<
Also, comic as in funny. Got it. I thought you meant the graphic novel comic.

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2011, 09:19:12 am »

Offline SimplyNecro

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2011, 11:46:56 am »
You know, while where talking about retcons, theres one thing I would like to change entirely.

The Core Combine First Contact War.

I consider that RP a complete disaster in OOC. Not because I lost, but because at the time, I was too shy an uncertain to oppose UFO King's HAXXOR SUPER NUKE SPREE THAT EVERYONE STARTED COMPLAINING ABOUT WHEN HE POINTED THE NUKES AT THEM!

I don't want to say it never happened. Nor, do I necessarily want a "do-over" but I would to change that instead of losing their homeworld, the Combine instead lost some critical forward bases, each which was an absolute and bloody pain to take, and that was after forcing the initial invasion force out of defenders territory.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 11:50:46 am by SimplyNecro »
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Offline omegatripod

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2011, 12:51:21 pm »
Sounds fine to me.

Offline UFO King

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2011, 06:51:05 pm »
Yeah, that sounds good. Felron being lost doesn't sound so good to me either. I'm sorry if the nukes felt like godmodding, but it just seemed natural! I mean, the USA has tens of thousands of nuclear warheads, and if you're fighting a bunch of evil aliens... Well, you figure it out. Ah well. Sorry.
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Offline Yuu

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2011, 08:27:01 pm »
Sounds good to me.

I imagine the negotiation about giving up the first gen slaves is now because the Core wanted an important fortress world back?

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2011, 05:09:31 am »
Something that might interest people planning on making RKKVs.

While not exactly realistic, the message it brings still strikes home quite well, at least for me.

Courtesy of /tg/, I hereby present to you...




We made a mistake !!


    !MESSAGE BEGINS

    We made a mistake. That is the simple, undeniable truth of the matter, however painful it might be. The flaw was not in our Observatories, for those machines were as perfect as we could make, and they showed us only the unfiltered light of truth. The flaw was not in the Predictor, for it is a device of pure, infallible logic, turning raw data into meaningful information without the taint of emotion or bias. No, the flaw was within us, the Orchestrators of this disaster, the sentients who thought themselves beyond such failings. We are responsible.

    It began a short while ago, as these things are measured, less than 6^6 Deeli ago, though I suspect our systems of measure will mean very little by the time anyone receives this transmission. We detected faint radio signals from a blossoming intelligence 2^14 Deelis outward from the Galactic Core, as photons travel. At first crude and unstructured, these leaking broadcasts quickly grew in complexity and strength, as did the messages they carried. Through our Observatories we watched a world of strife and violence, populated by a barbaric race of short-lived, fast breeding vermin. They were brutal and uncultured things which stabbed and shot and burned each other with no regard for life or purpose. Even their concepts of Art spoke of conflict and pain. They divided themselves according to some bizarre cultural patterns and set their every industry to cause of death.

    They terrified us, but we were older and wiser and so very far away, so we did not fret. Then we watched them split the atom and breach the heavens within the breadth of one of their single, short generations, and we began to worry. When they began actively transmitting messages and greetings into space, we felt fear and horror. Their transmissions promised peace and camaraderie to any who were listening, but we had watched them for too long to buy into such transparent deceptions. They knew we were out here, and they were coming for us.

    The Orchestrators consulted the Predictor, and the output was dire. They would multiply and grow and flood out of their home system like some uncountable tide of Devourer worms, consuming all that lay in their path. It might take 6^8 Deelis, but they would destroy us if left unchecked. With aching carapaces we decided to act, and sealed our fate.

    The Gift of Mercy was 8^4 strides long with a mouth 2/4 that in diameter, filled with many 4^4 weights of machinery, fuel, and ballast. It would push itself up to 2/8th of light speed with its onboard fuel, and then begin to consume interstellar Primary Element 2/2 to feed its unlimited acceleration. It would be traveling at nearly light speed when it hit. They would never see it coming. Its launch was a day of mourning, celebration, and reflection. The horror of the act we had committed weighted heavily upon us all; the necessity of our crime did little to comfort us.

    The Gift had barely cleared the outer cometary halo when the mistake was realized, but it was too late. The Gift could not be caught, could not be recalled or diverted from its path. The architects and work crews, horrified at the awful power of the thing upon which they labored, had quietly self-terminated in droves, walking unshielded into radiation zones, neglecting proper null pressure safety or simple ceasing their nutrient consumption until their metabolic functions stopped. The appalling cost in lives had forced the Ochestrators to streamline the Gift’s design and construction. There had been no time for the design or implementation of anything beyond the simple, massive engines and the stabilizing systems. We could only watch in shame and horror as the light of genocide faded into infrared against the distant void.

    They grew, and they changed, in a handful of lifetimes they abolished war, abandoned their violent tendencies and turned themselves to the grand purposes of life and Art. We watched them remake first themselves, and then their world. Their frail, soft bodies gave way to gleaming metals and plastics, they unified their people through an omnipresent communications grid and produced Art of such power and emotion, the likes of which the Galaxy has never seen before. Or again, because of us.

    They converted their home world into a paradise (by their standards) and many 10^6s of them poured out into the surrounding system with a rapidity and vigor that we could only envy. With bodies built to survive every environment from the day lit surface of their innermost world, to the atmosphere of their largest gas giant and the cold void in-between, they set out to sculpt their system into something beautiful. At first we thought them simple miners, stripping the rocky planets and moons for vital resources, but then we began to see the purpose to their constructions, the artworks carved into every surface, and traced across the system in glittering lights and dancing fusion trails. And still, our terrible Gift approached.

    They had less than 2^2 Deeli to see it, following so closely on the tail of its own light. In that time, oh so brief even by their fleeting lives, more than 10^10 sentients prepared for death. Lovers exchanged last words, separated by worlds and the tyranny of light speed. Their planet side engineers worked frantically to build sufficient transmission infrastructure to upload the countless masses with the necessary neural modifications, while those above dumped lifetimes of music and literature from their databanks to make room for passengers. Those lacking the required hardware or the time to acquire it consigned themselves to death, lashed out in fear and pain, or simply went about their lives as best they could under the circumstances.

    The Gift arrived suddenly, the light of its impact visible in our skies, shining bright and cruel even to the unaugmented ocular receptor. We watched and we wept for our victims, dead so many Deelis before the light of their doom had even reached us. Many 6^4s of those who had been directly or even tangentially involved in the creation of the Gift sealed their spiracles with paste as a final penance for the small roles they had played in this atrocity. The light dimmed, the dust cleared, and our Observatories refocused upon the place where their shining blue world had once hung in the void, and found only dust and the pale gleam of an orphaned moon, wrapped in a thin, burning wisp of atmosphere that had once belonged to its parent.

    Radiation and relativistic shrapnel had wiped out much of the inner system, and continent sized chunks of molten rock carried screaming ghosts outward at interstellar escape velocities, damned to wander the great void for an eternity. The damage was apocalyptic, but not complete, from the shadows of the outer worlds, tiny points of light emerged, thousands of fusion trails of single ships and world ships and everything in between, many 10^6s of survivors in flesh and steel and memory banks, ready to rebuild. For a few moments we felt relief, even joy, and we were filled with the hope that their culture and Art would survive the terrible blow we had dealt them. Then came the message, tightly focused at our star, transmitted simultaneously by hundreds of their ships.

    "We know you are out there, and we are coming for you."

    !MESSAGE ENDS

Offline UFO King

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2011, 08:28:58 am »
RKKV? Tg? Deeli? Gift?

Whatwhatwhat?

What is going on? What is this latest rambling? Who and what are you talking about?
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Offline Yuu

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2011, 04:55:11 pm »
It's from the PoV of an alien species that saw humanity's warring era and thus decided to launch a RKKV a.k.a. "Gift" at them as a merciful bullet to the head.

Too bad by the time the RKKV was nearing the Solar System humans have grown out of violence.

The aliens saw the error of their ways, but by that time it was already impossible to intercept the vehicle.

One Earth Shattering Kaboom later, the humans are out for the perpetrators' blood, and it's hinted that they know where the aliens are. DUN! DUN! DUN!

Offline UFO King

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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2011, 06:05:41 pm »
So what's tg and RKKV? Top..grenades? Relativistic kinetic killing, uh, Vietnamese?
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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2011, 06:08:02 pm »
TG is true gaming I believe.
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Re: Current Concensus on Space Combat in the RG
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2011, 06:43:13 pm »
So what's tg and RKKV? Top..grenades? Relativistic kinetic killing, uh, Vietnamese?
TG is true gaming I believe.


"Tabletop Games" and "Relativistic Kinetic Kill Vehicle", respectively.


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