Author Topic: Final Fantasy  (Read 15750 times)

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Offline Clayface

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2011, 09:10:17 pm »
are you accusing final fantasy games of
do(ing) random **** and expect everyone to just roll with it.

if so where ?

Offline Celdur

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2011, 09:24:56 pm »
focus clayface, come on.
what have we been wasting our time on these last few posts, jegus chris.

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That quote is actualy very witty, Celdur. I suggest you use that in your signature.

Offline Clayface

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2011, 09:53:42 pm »
trying to answer my question with a question?  Thats not going to work on me
answer my question !

Offline Celdur

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2011, 10:29:14 pm »
refer to previous posts about disregarding physics without any explanation or lampshading...ugh.

Quote from: Krakow sam
That quote is actualy very witty, Celdur. I suggest you use that in your signature.

Offline Clayface

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2011, 12:32:06 am »
refer to previous post about me asking where in what game you are referring to

Offline Celdur

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2011, 12:41:02 am »
refer to your neurologist first or something

Quote from: Krakow sam
That quote is actualy very witty, Celdur. I suggest you use that in your signature.

Offline Cobra

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2011, 05:25:48 am »
Also then theres the whole point of why is bliztball played under water if its still done in 2 Demensions.

Offline Gnoll

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2011, 05:39:32 am »
Also then theres the whole point of why is bliztball played under water if its still done in 2 Demensions.

I always did wonder about that.

Maybe they all want us, the players, to come up with something...
Who are you again and why in the world would you expect anything resembling rationality or civility in youtube comments?

Offline PatMan33

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2011, 06:21:20 pm »
For anyone interested in a critical analysis of Final Fantasy... here's a sixteen course meal to feed your brain.

Offline Gauphastus

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2011, 06:27:37 pm »
Oho, those are great. I read a lot of those awhile ago, but now there's more.
I was wondering why I had that site in my favorites for the last.. two years or something. Now I know.
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2015, 08:27:54 am »
All Square had to do was nothing. Instead they did something, which could be the worst possible thing.

'Dramatic changes' and Advent Children will help shape the Final Fantasy 7 Remake

No no no no no no. Jesus ****ing christ, Square. All you had to do was fix the graphics and make things pretty, the one thing you are actually good at. But no, you decide now you have to **** with the mechanics. Square hasn't made a decent set of mechanics in years. Bravely Default was a disaster, the recent Final Fantasy games are ridiculous, and using Advent Children as an inspiration for anything related to a video game is insanity. ****. They are going to completely botch this up. Before there was small hope. Now there is no hope. This is a march toward a cliff.

Final Fantasy VII was one of the last great set of mechanics that Square managed to make. All of its components had depth, they meshed together well, and the system was rewarding when you finally figured it all out. It's like they have George Lucas Syndrome or something and just can't keep their fingers off of what worked. Everything has to be better, forget trying to do it right. Just shoot straight for better. Man this is just awful news.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 08:31:46 am by PatMan33 »

Offline PatMan33

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2015, 08:32:52 am »
Allow me to quote myself and explain.

Quote from: PatMan33
Here's where we get to open a big can of worms. I'm going to describe why Final Fantasy VII is such an achievement. And it's not because of the characters and it's not because of the story and it's not because of the environment. Most of those things were copied over from Final Fantasy VI.

Final Fantasy VII hits it out of the park when it comes to leveling up, equipping, combat, and the interface between the three.

First and foremost when looking at FFVII you need to understand the basics. The following assumes you know the fundamental aspects of a "normal" RPG, things like armor and hit points and stuff like that.

For the most part every character is a blank slate with base stats that vary somewhat. Some characters are better suited to be casters while others should be combat-oriented, but you can mix and match and still be very successful. It doesn't matter that much.

Each character has the ability to equip an armor and a weapon, and each of those components carry their own stats, as well as materia slots. Each weapon or armor has a varying number of slots, from zero all the way up to eight. This will be important near the bottom of this explanation.

What's materia though? Materia (plural) are items that you collect throughout the game that give characters abilities. And materia is "equipped" by placing it into a free materia slot in a piece of armor or a weapon. You could have a Lightning materia that gives your character the ability to cast lighting. You could have a Counter Attack materia that causes your character to counter attack when attacked. And there are a whole bunch of different types.

Materia fall into the following classes:

* Command - Alters battle menu commands ('Attack' becomes '2-Cut', et cetera)
* Independent - Gives character bonuses unrelated to other skills or attributes (EXP Plus, Long Range, et cetera)
* Magic - Gives character a magic skill
* Summon - Gives a character a summon
* Support - Works along with another Materia through linking (explained below)

You still with me? Good.

Now then, like any other RPG, Final Fantasy VII relies on experience gained through combat in order to improve your skills. You gain EXP and AP. EXP is your character's experience and it goes toward improving their base stats. AP is experience for your materia and that goes toward improving your materia's stats.

For example, a Lightning materia starts out with 0 AP and the Bolt ability. Once you've accrued 2,000 AP your Lightning materia will "grow" or level up. And once that happens your materia will now grant you Bolt II. From there you must reach the 18,000 AP mark to learn Bolt III. And if you max out a materia's AP stat (in Lightning's case 35,000 AP) the materia will become "mastered" and spawn a brand new Lightning materia that you can then use on another character.

Materia level and character level are entirely independent of one another. If you've got a mastered Lightning on Cloud and you want to move it to Vincent, you simply unequip it from Cloud and equip it on Vincent and bam, Vincent now has master level Bolt attacks. This system allows for very dynamic characters and you can play it different every time. It's pretty neat! But alas, there is more to go into... let's go back to weapons and armor for a moment.

Materia, armor, and weapons all work together to form a larger system that effectively dictates your character's stats and abilities. That said, each also serve a dual purpose. In the case of weapons and armor, while they determine your character's attack and defense stats, they also impact what is known as "materia growth", known hereafter as growth.

What is growth? Growth is an additional stat that weapons and armor carry and it is fairly straightforward. If an equip has "normal" growth, at the end of a battle your total AP earned (remember, AP is your materia's experience) will be applied normally. So if you get 10 AP for a battle, all of your materia equipped to that item gains 10 AP. Sometimes though you'll find weapons or armor that have double growth, and a rare few that offer triple growth. And if you have, say, the Platinum Bangle equipped which has double growth, any materia equipped to the Platinum Bangle will get double AP. So 10 AP becomes 20 AP.

It's important to remember that growth only applies to materia that are equipped to that item. So if your armor has double growth but your weapon has normal growth, only your armor-equipped materia will get double growth. The weapon-equipped materia will remain at normal growth. This statistic becomes very useful late-game when some enemies drop hundreds of AP per battle.

Still here? There's more! We've talked about materia, the different types, and how they interact with weapons and armor. But there is one other huge part of this equation that really makes FFVII something special. Do you remember support materia? I mentioned it above in the bulleted list and said I'd explain later. Here's the explanation...

Support materia are a very special type of materia because they have the ability to augment weapons, armor, and other materia. As you play through FFVII you will notice that there are two types of materia slots in most weapon and armor types. There are single slots and linked slots. Single slots are straightforward enough; you put a materia into a single slot and you get that materia's ability. Linked slots are two single slots connected by a link, duh. These linked slots are for support materia and are generally used in conjunction with magic materia, though summons and a select few others may also be used.

This is where things have a tendency to go off the rails because it can be complex, especially if you're new to this. Most magic materia have their own special statistic and that is their elemental attribute. If a materia has an elemental attribute it will be listed in yellow below the materia's name. For instance, Lightning has the lightning elemental attribute. Makes sense, right? The Poison materia has the poison attribute, Time materia has the time attribute, Destruct materia carries the death attribute, and so on.

Now then, keep that in mind as we discuss types of support materia and just what it is that they do. The big name in support materia is the Added Effect materia. This is usually a player's first taste at linking materia and it is simple.

If I have a linked materia slot in my weapon and link a magic materia with Added Effect, my weapon will take on that materia's elemental status effect. So I can equip Poison and Added Effect in my linked weapon slot and my weapon will have a chance to inflict Poison on an enemy.

And if you apply this to armor you'll see a similar impact. By linking Poison and Added Effect on my armor I will gain protection from the poison status effect. This makes it very easy to reequip a party to deal with a new threat and allows for all kinds of interesting combinations.

The Elemental materia acts much the same, but carries a materia's elemental attribute, not its status effect. This could be used in an armor with a Lightning materia to grant your character protection from Lightning elemental attacks. Or used in a weapon to make your gun cause Lightning elemental damage. Furthermore, as your Elemental materia levels up, the level of protection it offers increases. So at base level a Elemental materia linked to Lightning will cause Lightning attacks to do half damage to your character. At the next level Lightning causes no damage. At the next level Lightning attacks will refill your character's HP. It's great!

Plus there are lots of useful support materia out there. The most useful may be the All materia, which when linked will apply a materia's ability to all characters or enemies depending on whether or not the spell is defensive or offensive. So an All linked with Cure will allow you to cure your whole party, rather than just one party member. An All linked with Lightning means Bolt will hit all the enemies on the field, rather than just one.

And there's a whole bunch out there. Stuff like HP-Absorb, Counter, MP Turbo, and Steal as Well just to name a few. These can all be linked together and chained to cause some wild effects on the battlefield.

One other cool tidbit about equips before I get to the final part of this wall of text. If you want to double up on some materia you can! Let's use Lightning again. You could put two Lightning materia on one character, link the first Lightning with Counter Attack and the second Lightning with HP Absorb. The result is that your character will counter with a lightning attack when they are attacked, and if that lightning attack hits, the caster will regain some HP. There are lots of possibilities here. Let your imagination go wild!

That brings us to this last bit and I'm almost at the character limit. There are of course downsides to materia use. Each materia has an impact on your character's stats and the higher level the materia, the more profound those impacts. Most materia impact your health and magic stats. Going back to Lightning, a base level Lightning materia subtract 2% of your max HP and add 2% to your max MP. Equipping lots of materia will lower a character's max HP but improve their Max MP.

These impacts can be countered by using independent materia like HP Plus or MP Plus. But it is important to know how stats are impacted by what you equip. In the case of HP Plus for instance, a level one HP Plus gives a player +10% Max HP. A master level HP Plus will grant a character +50% Map HP. This is true for most materia. As level increases the benefits and the penalties also increase.

Anyway I think that's enough on that. I really enjoy Final Fantasy VII for its mechanics. They are fantastic and you can play a different game every time. The manner in which equipment, materia, and the combat system interface is smooth and very well-built.

If you made it this far thanks for reading and give FFVII a try for its mechanics!

Offline /lurk

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2015, 08:37:09 am »
You turbonerd, they're not getting rid of the materia system, they're changing the battle system.

And any change to the godawful ATB system is an improvement.
Not a winner anymore.

Offline PatMan33

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2015, 09:00:00 am »
I disagree entirely.

FFVII is one of the best ATB systems ever created, up there with the likes of Chrono Trigger. The success that Bravely Default did have (and boy was that abortion a success) was because it was a turn-based system. That was the consistent praise, that is was like an older type of RPG and people responded very well to that. It wasn't ATB, but it was turn-based. There is no reason for Square to start mucking around with an excellent system that worked. Their new systems have been complete garbage. Final Fantasy games no longer have any real choice, Bravely Default was incomplete, and I fully expect them to give Cloud the power to fly or something retarded like that because it was in the movie. Why would you trust them to make something worthwhile? They make movies with light interactivity now, not engaging game experiences.

The battle system was a fundamental part of the mechanics. Final Fantasy VII's genius was that they all worked together in sync. If they change it, they have to start adding new things and start changing other aspects of the core design. And Square can't be trusted with that kind of thing. They lack the talent and the vision to make something as good as what has been made in the past. ATB (by the way you play ATB in active mode, not wait mode) slowed the entire experience down and allowed you to put serious thought into your builds. Because yeah, there were builds in FFVII. And each one offered unique and interesting styles of play. Moreover it allowed you to experiment and set goals. I find that when you start speeding up the battle system it becomes more a game of "what is efficient and fast", and it strips away strategic or experimental feel. That's the problem Bravely Default ended up with because of how broken its job system ended up being and how rare status effects were.

ATB offers a different style of play altogether that cannot be replicated by a unrestrained system. And by the way, free-roam and hack and slash systems work great when the game is designed around those aspects. But FFVII wasn't designed that way. Square peg, round hole.

Even adding something as simple as free range of movement throws the system out of whack because now you have a hack-and-slash mechanic going, which means combos and attack chains are going to be introduced, which change the way your stats work. I would be fine with changes is Square were a competent RPG developer anymore. But they aren't. They don't know how to make a good RPG anymore. They have gold sitting in their lap and they're going to start grinding down the edges to replace it with what?

Offline Kaizer

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Re: Final Fantasy
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2015, 12:18:45 pm »
While FF-7 had the neat materia system, it also had that stupid chocobo system

it was a FF game and therefore 80% of the game is mashing the attack button to grind out levels to make your numbers bigger than theirs.


and pat why you gotta be hating bravely default? The job system and difficulty in that game were perfect