Author Topic: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!  (Read 33833 times)

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Offline sgore

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #135 on: May 13, 2011, 11:41:23 am »
You should stop treating everyone like some idiotic, die-hard american patriot who thinks the war is some sort of glory mission, and start treating people like they know what they're talking about.
Well as long as anyone defends any war I'll stay the way I am. War means death and destruction of civilization in all cases.
I think what Munchkin is complaining about is the unnecessary hostility that seems to be running through your rhetoric. It's not necessary to treat people as if they fall into some kind of political archtype just because they feel a certain way about a certain issue, and it really doesn't help any point you're trying to make to act as if you're arguing against that archtype rather than an individual. You're talking to people here detox, not conflations of political caricatures personified in internet form, and honestly, if there's anything that's ever bothered me about your posting style when it comes to debates like this, it's really only been that.

To a degree, it isn't just you. I've seen certain other posters do it too from time to time. Much as I enjoy having in-depth discussions about issues (ranging from politics to science to whatever), when people act like that, it's kind of what turns me off to participating. For the most part, discussions on this forum avoid that, but it is something that needs to be worked on.

On the flip side, if you have a problem with the way people have been treating you, which you may, you can certainly bring it up and ask that people take it into consideration.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 11:48:33 am by sgore »
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Offline Uroboros

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #136 on: May 13, 2011, 02:28:05 pm »
My opinion has been held back until now, given the whipsnaps at anyone not in open agreement, but...

Even in a time of war, even knowing exactly what kind of a terribad guy Bin Laden was, I will never be comfortable with revelling in the death of another. You cannot say in one hand "We're better than that" when hearing of tortured people and folks dancing in the streets at the destruction caused here, and then in the other, waterboard random suspects and have it be socially acceptable to hold parties at the death of an enemy, y'know?

In the anger from the 9/11 attack, the actions that have taken place are understandable, but striking out so hard may have been incredibly clumsy, like trying to hack off one of the heads of a hydra, only to see two returning in its place. Much of what has been done would have only fortified the hate and propaganda thrown against America, and spurred people to their cause, and yet total inaction would have left the situation seeming as if without repercussion. A very careful response was needed, but instead, the powers that were, seemed to just struggle against their leashes trying to effect the quickest retaliation, eventually going as far to fabricate what they needed to move, and without support from their allies. All that is clear, and will become increasingly clear as the dust settles after all of this :

Is that you cannot kill an idea by killing a man.

I also don't feel that saying "the terrorists didn't win" is accurate. Call it anecdotal if you must, but people are so paranoid that they call bombsquads when they see litebrites or camcorders laying around, and are still on guard around anything with a turban or a funny accent. Terrorism... terror. They did exactly what they came for. Not just America, but this has reached out to here in the UK too, and other places to lesser extents. They did exactly what they came for. No matter how harsh the repercussions for the crime should or should not be, in allowing any of our rights to be subdued, in allowing your culture to be shaken so deeply, in allowing the war to begin without fully thinking it through, didn't they in a sense, actually win? I know that is a bitter pill to swallow, and if I had any better way to say it, I would, but I have a hard time calling the word "Justice" into any part of this mess. Only "revenge".

I cannot say right from wrong in the big picture, that much, only time can tell, as retrospect seems to be the only clear revealer in matters of political intensity... but I feel a subtle irony in the premise of the "civilised west". Remember that patriotism isn't to agree with everything said, done and accepted as norm. Patriotism is to love your country, even if that means expecting better of it, and not being afraid to be critical even in the hardest (or most victorious) of times. People disagreeing with how things have turned out aren't necessarily pointing a finger at you and yelling that you're all stereotypical fat americans, just as your counterpoints don't mean you are in full agreement with everything that has happened around this subject. Though showing barbs to one another is a surefire way of helping them to misinterpret you.

Now, hopefully I won't get demolished by waves of embittered thinly-veiled "you disagree so you're an idiot" from both sides... :P
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Offline Inkling

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #137 on: May 13, 2011, 02:43:20 pm »
I'd just like to point out that a few groups of college kids and some overexcited talking heads on tv doesn't mean the whole country was revelling in Osama's death.  And like I said,

On one hand it doesn't feel right to be celebrating someone's death, even if it's the death of one of the worst people on the planet.  On the other hand,

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE_covmW9vY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE_covmW9vY</a>
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Offline munchkin5

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #138 on: May 13, 2011, 02:51:50 pm »
Turns out killing Osama was a tactical success too, something they were probably aware of before they went in.

I don't agree with this idea that the war has just made terrorism worse either;

In the anger from the 9/11 attack, the actions that have taken place are understandable, but striking out so hard may have been incredibly clumsy, like trying to hack off one of the heads of a hydra, only to see two returning in its place. Much of what has been done would have only fortified the hate and propaganda thrown against America, and spurred people to their cause.

Clumsy, maybe, in terms of collateral damage, but the effect on terrorist networks in the region has been a profound reduction in operational capability.

Offline Crazen

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #139 on: May 13, 2011, 07:45:43 pm »



by attacking a country you don't bring back people from the dead.

first, the US military was not attacking Afghanistan. it was attacking certain fringe groups within Afghanistan. and the goal is to kill them so they cant kill anymore people. in my version, we would then replace every bombed bunker with a school and a power plant, but the USA kinda suck.


Tox, we all hate war, and I actually agree with most of what you said. education, cooporation, and life enrichment are the best cures for violence.

but I don't think you have given an adequate answer to what we should do with the terrorists that are alive right now, and are planning on killing more people, right now. I don't know to come up with a way of peacefully stopping 1,000~ people with bombs and guns that want to kill us. I want one though, so if you have one, I would like it.

oh and I don't mean this in a 'take that' sort of way. I'm trying to be earnest here.  

also, for the record, I don't watch TV news. too bulls***y



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Offline Inkling

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #140 on: May 13, 2011, 09:12:36 pm »
And now for insult to injury,

"The pornography recovered in bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, consists of modern, electronically recorded video and is fairly extensive..."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/13/us-binladen-porn-idUSTRE74C4RK20110513
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Offline Hammerman58

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #141 on: May 14, 2011, 12:04:24 am »
Guess he has to resort to that when all of his wives would not put out. ;)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 12:33:26 am by Hammerman58 »
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Offline Legodragonxp

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #142 on: May 14, 2011, 07:22:38 am »
I'm waiting for the Scooby Doo ending where they pull off Bin Laden's mask and it is actually Michael Moore.

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Offline Luminar

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #143 on: May 14, 2011, 03:37:50 pm »
Wait for the M Night Shylaman ending when they pull off his mask and it's actually Nicholas Cage.

Offline Detoxicated

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #144 on: May 14, 2011, 03:58:14 pm »
On one hand it doesn't feel right to be celebrating someone's death, even if it's the death of one of the worst people on the planet.  On the other hand,

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE_covmW9vY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE_covmW9vY</a>
You're a judge?
My opinion has been held back until now, given the whipsnaps at anyone not in open agreement, but...

Even in a time of war, even knowing exactly what kind of a terribad guy Bin Laden was, I will never be comfortable with revelling in the death of another. You cannot say in one hand "We're better than that" when hearing of tortured people and folks dancing in the streets at the destruction caused here, and then in the other, waterboard random suspects and have it be socially acceptable to hold parties at the death of an enemy, y'know?

In the anger from the 9/11 attack, the actions that have taken place are understandable, but striking out so hard may have been incredibly clumsy, like trying to hack off one of the heads of a hydra, only to see two returning in its place. Much of what has been done would have only fortified the hate and propaganda thrown against America, and spurred people to their cause, and yet total inaction would have left the situation seeming as if without repercussion. A very careful response was needed, but instead, the powers that were, seemed to just struggle against their leashes trying to effect the quickest retaliation, eventually going as far to fabricate what they needed to move, and without support from their allies. All that is clear, and will become increasingly clear as the dust settles after all of this :

Is that you cannot kill an idea by killing a man.

I also don't feel that saying "the terrorists didn't win" is accurate. Call it anecdotal if you must, but people are so paranoid that they call bombsquads when they see litebrites or camcorders laying around, and are still on guard around anything with a turban or a funny accent. Terrorism... terror. They did exactly what they came for. Not just America, but this has reached out to here in the UK too, and other places to lesser extents. They did exactly what they came for. No matter how harsh the repercussions for the crime should or should not be, in allowing any of our rights to be subdued, in allowing your culture to be shaken so deeply, in allowing the war to begin without fully thinking it through, didn't they in a sense, actually win? I know that is a bitter pill to swallow, and if I had any better way to say it, I would, but I have a hard time calling the word "Justice" into any part of this mess. Only "revenge".

I cannot say right from wrong in the big picture, that much, only time can tell, as retrospect seems to be the only clear revealer in matters of political intensity... but I feel a subtle irony in the premise of the "civilised west". Remember that patriotism isn't to agree with everything said, done and accepted as norm. Patriotism is to love your country, even if that means expecting better of it, and not being afraid to be critical even in the hardest (or most victorious) of times. People disagreeing with how things have turned out aren't necessarily pointing a finger at you and yelling that you're all stereotypical fat americans, just as your counterpoints don't mean you are in full agreement with everything that has happened around this subject. Though showing barbs to one another is a surefire way of helping them to misinterpret you.

Now, hopefully I won't get demolished by waves of embittered thinly-veiled "you disagree so you're an idiot" from both sides... :P
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Thank you.
I think what Munchkin is complaining about is the unnecessary hostility that seems to be running through your rhetoric.
i do realize that i talk to people. and to point out, i am being treated hostile in ANY discussion by 60% of the forum simply because i admitted to smoking pot. It is repeatably used to invalidate my opinions.

I realize that i wrote quite irrationally, even though i did not mean to insult anybody personally, but more to insult and question a phenomenom of glorification of death and terror.
OK, both of you die and let us know what happens.

Offline Crazen

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #145 on: May 14, 2011, 04:04:37 pm »
I dont think we are glorifying war. war sucks. anybody who glorifies war (i.e. Osama Bin Laden) is a f***face
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No capitalization......

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Offline /lurk

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #146 on: May 14, 2011, 04:25:38 pm »
i do realize that i talk to people. and to point out, i am being treated hostile in ANY discussion by 60% of the forum simply because i admitted to smoking pot. It is repeatably used to invalidate my opinions.

We don't treat you with hostility because you smoke pot, silly.



It's because you can't use capital letters.
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Offline Inkling

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #147 on: May 14, 2011, 08:51:24 pm »
On one hand it doesn't feel right to be celebrating someone's death, even if it's the death of one of the worst people on the planet.  On the other hand,

*YES THEY DESERVED TO DIE, AND I HOPE THEY BURN IN HELL*
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Offline Crazen

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #148 on: May 14, 2011, 10:41:10 pm »
It's because you can't use capital letters.

your a dick
Quote from: SimplyNecro
No capitalization......

Crazen!


Offline Legodragonxp

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Re: Bin Laden is DEAD!!!!!!
« Reply #149 on: May 15, 2011, 07:41:32 am »
It's because you can't use capital letters.

your a dick
No, he accidentally the whole thing.

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