Author Topic: Extreme Planet Types ?  (Read 18303 times)

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Offline Borogove

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #90 on: February 05, 2006, 08:40:14 am »
I to speculate on mans future as a Esocial organism, thogh i think that we might still have individuality it would make more sense to belong..... 2 Am and I'm riding the same brainwaves as you......
Oh yeah, I had meant to mention my thoughts on that actually.  What happens to individuality, I mean.  I don't think that being part f a larger construction makes us any less people or that we suddenly lose free will/creativity/etc.  To use an analogy, a muscle cells, neurons, etc. are no less cells than an amoeba is, and still function and behave much like a single-celled organism.  But they are more specialized, and wouldn't survive long in another environment (as in outside the animal). 

The part that bugs me is that it may not be especially good for the individual.  Sure, we get reliable structures in place for meeting our needs like the blood system feeds our own cells, but the form these superorganisms are taking is things like Microsoft, EA, and bgger government.
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Offline Jaleho

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #91 on: February 05, 2006, 08:49:08 am »
I to speculate on mans future as a Esocial organism, thogh i think that we might still have individuality it would make more sense to belong..... 2 Am and I'm riding the same brainwaves as you......
Oh yeah, I had meant to mention my thoughts on that actually. What happens to individuality, I mean. I don't think that being part f a larger construction makes us any less people or that we suddenly lose free will/creativity/etc. To use an analogy, a muscle cells, neurons, etc. are no less cells than an amoeba is, and still function and behave much like a single-celled organism. But they are more specialized, and wouldn't survive long in another environment (as in outside the animal).

The part that bugs me is that it may not be especially good for the individual. Sure, we get reliable structures in place for meeting our needs like the blood system feeds our own cells, but the form these superorganisms are taking is things like Microsoft, EA, and bgger government.

The fact that there are single folks, childless couples and so on, prove that our species has either 1: broken away from the old "eat, reproduce, die" biological motivation, or that 2: since we contol the environment, the environment could no longer control our population - ie keeping our species in equilibrium. So, our brains took over that job, too, be it focusing on interests that are unrelated or actually harmful to reproduction, and individuality, adoption, homosexuality... all those may be life's way of reigning in our tendency to overpopulate. We are still a part of the environment, even if we are a controlling part of it, so eventually the population had to come into equilibrium.

Now, how to get the racist inbreds to stop popping out twenty kids and filling their mind with political, social, religious, intelectual nonsense, so they don't overtake the world...

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #92 on: February 05, 2006, 09:29:57 am »
I to speculate on mans future as a Esocial organism, thogh i think that we might still have individuality it would make more sense to belong..... 2 Am and I'm riding the same brainwaves as you......
Oh yeah, I had meant to mention my thoughts on that actually. What happens to individuality, I mean. I don't think that being part f a larger construction makes us any less people or that we suddenly lose free will/creativity/etc. To use an analogy, a muscle cells, neurons, etc. are no less cells than an amoeba is, and still function and behave much like a single-celled organism. But they are more specialized, and wouldn't survive long in another environment (as in outside the animal).

The part that bugs me is that it may not be especially good for the individual. Sure, we get reliable structures in place for meeting our needs like the blood system feeds our own cells, but the form these superorganisms are taking is things like Microsoft, EA, and bgger government.

The fact that there are single folks, childless couples and so on, prove that our species has either 1: broken away from the old "eat, reproduce, die" biological motivation, or that 2: since we contol the environment, the environment could no longer control our population - ie keeping our species in equilibrium. So, our brains took over that job, too, be it focusing on interests that are unrelated or actually harmful to reproduction, and individuality, adoption, homosexuality... all those may be life's way of reigning in our tendency to overpopulate. We are still a part of the environment, even if we are a controlling part of it, so eventually the population had to come into equilibrium.

Now, how to get the racist inbreds to stop popping out twenty kids and filling their mind with political, social, religious, intelectual nonsense, so they don't overtake the world...
Adoption is practised in a number of 'lower' species, especially social birds. Homosexuality is present across the board in almost every known species. its not a well known fact for some reason but there are even gay fruitfly.
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Offline Atari Man

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #93 on: February 05, 2006, 11:52:43 am »
Any mention if the player can evolve on planets like a volcanic, desert or ice planet ? or just on earth like worlds with the green and all that, if not I think that would be a bit disappointing for me.

Yeah thats how this topic began, thats not how it ended. Not to ruin all of your fun but everything has gone way, WAY off topic!

Offline Jaleho

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #94 on: February 05, 2006, 11:54:16 am »
Adoption is practised in a number of 'lower' species, especially social birds. Homosexuality is present across the board in almost every known species. its not a well known fact for some reason but there are even gay fruitfly.

There was some sci-fi story where gays and lesbians were revered members of a tribal society... the gay men were great as warriors, because if they died protecting their community, the gene pool hadn't lost anything (since they wouldn't be reproducing anyway), and the gay women made great midwives and nannies - they could care for other children, fulfilling any "motherly" instincts they might feel, without having to reproduce, which gave the offspring more caretakers and eased the responsibility on all the women in the tribe to do other tasks.

On a similar note, China is currently in the same position -- they have hundreds of millions of single men (due to the "one-child" policy over there and parents' preference for boys) who the government knows will NEVER find wives or raise families... what a great army to send against a foe, eh? Nothing to lose, so fight to the death...

Offline Leng

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #95 on: February 05, 2006, 04:42:08 pm »
the trouble is that it's easy to imagine all manner of technological development, in control of quantum mechanics, in genetics, in information theory.  development of social structures, etc.  and yet no development of the species itself.  we could of course augment our mental and physical abilities through genetic modification or cybernetics.  but does this really change the nature of mankind to have perfect bodies and genius intellects?  do we truely grow beyond automatism?  man exists in a bubble.  we are seggregated from the universe.  no matter how far we manage to expand the bubble, no matter how completely we alter the enclosed space.  we seek to subjugate the world, and yet we do this in service to desires we do not control, and which are, in a sense, foreign to our nature.  ultimately, improving the magnitude and precision of our powers and the capacity of our intellect is an evolutionary dead end.
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Offline GrrrArrgh

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #96 on: February 05, 2006, 05:25:40 pm »
Superiority complex, that's still all I gotta say. If you can look at any substantial amount of human history and say as a species we aren't extremely arrogant and conceited, you just don't know your fellow homo sapiens very well. And just for the record, why would any other animal want to split atoms anyway?

Why did wild wolves risk their safety and freedom by approaching humans armed with spears, just to get near this amazing device called fire that the humans have learned to control?

Splitting the atom means energy. Energy lets you expand into new territory. I think an important element of sentience is overcoming the instinct to flee from fire. It's probably actually a BAD mutation - a creature unafraid of fire is likely to get killed by it. But hey, we lucked out, and learned how to handle and how NOT to handle this strange glowing stuff, and it sure worked out well for us, and dogs, and rats, and cats, and cows, and sheep, and chickens, and pigs, and...

The day when a bee evolves which is no longer irritated by smoke, but intrigued, we are doomed.

The atom splitting thing was meant more rhetorically. Any other animal isn't going to really care about creating a more powerful more efficient energy source or whathaveyou. They'd most likely be much happier with the nut.
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Offline Borogove

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #97 on: February 05, 2006, 05:32:33 pm »
Quote
the trouble is that it's easy to imagine all manner of technological development, in control of quantum mechanics, in genetics, in information theory.  development of social structures, etc. and yet no development of the species itself.
...what would be development of the species?
Quote
do we truely grow beyond automatism?
I have no idea what you mean by that.

Quote
man exists in a bubble.  we are seggregated from the universe.
uh, we are? How so?

Quote
ultimately, improving the magnitude and precision of our powers and the capacity of our intellect is an evolutionary dead end.
It would seem to me that these things only increase our ability to survive, reproduce, and exist as a species for a long time.  Not sure how that's a dead end.

I just have no idea what you are trying to say.
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Offline Leng

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #98 on: February 05, 2006, 06:24:08 pm »
Quote
the trouble is that it's easy to imagine all manner of technological development, in control of quantum mechanics, in genetics, in information theory. development of social structures, etc. and yet no development of the species itself.
...what would be development of the species?
Quote
do we truely grow beyond automatism?
I have no idea what you mean by that.

same issue.  we're guided by natural and conditioned instincts that we have not chosen.  if we cannot make choices that are truely voluntary, we have not progressed beyond the level of ants: habitually building cities and tools and habitually researching technology.

Quote
Quote
man exists in a bubble. we are seggregated from the universe.
uh, we are? How so?

this is an actualy structure within the psyche.  a tangible barrier between the self and the outside world.  by expanding the bubble we "enlarge the self" and yet the bubble remains intact, separating us from the universe.

Quote
Quote
ultimately, improving the magnitude and precision of our powers and the capacity of our intellect is an evolutionary dead end.
It would seem to me that these things only increase our ability to survive, reproduce, and exist as a species for a long time. Not sure how that's a dead end.

I just have no idea what you are trying to say.

again my reference to the ant.  build a better mousetrap, build a better mouse.. why?  what is the purpose of improving our capacity to control the physical world?  moreover, what is the motivation?  think about this.  at best, it is an instinctual drive to gain knowledge and improve our technology.  at worst, an instinctual thirst for raw power.  there is no sentient choice in this.  the only way that man can evolve is to truely become a sentient lifeform.
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They call me a poet who'll never have a poem
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Offline Vivec

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #99 on: February 05, 2006, 06:26:07 pm »
again my reference to the ant. build a better mousetrap, build a better mouse.. why? what is the purpose of improving our capacity to control the physical world? moreover, what is the motivation? think about this. at best, it is an instinctual drive to gain knowledge and improve our technology. at worst, an instinctual thirst for raw power. there is no sentient choice in this. the only way that man can evolve is to truely become a sentient lifeform.

OK, then what is your idea of sentience then?
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Offline Borogove

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #100 on: February 05, 2006, 06:53:10 pm »
same issue.  we're guided by natural and conditioned instincts that we have not chosen.  if we cannot make choices that are truely voluntary, we have not progressed beyond the level of ants: habitually building cities and tools and habitually researching technology.
Oh.  The free will debate...

this is an actualy structure within the psyche.  a tangible barrier between the self and the outside world.  by expanding the bubble we "enlarge the self" and yet the bubble remains intact, separating us from the universe.
...are you taking a philosophy course or something?  ;)

again my reference to the ant.  build a better mousetrap, build a better mouse.. why?  what is the purpose of improving our capacity to control the physical world?  moreover, what is the motivation?  think about this.  at best, it is an instinctual drive to gain knowledge and improve our technology.  at worst, an instinctual thirst for raw power.  there is no sentient choice in this.  the only way that man can evolve is to truely become a sentient lifeform.
So...sentience = free will?

I know we are already way of topic, but do we really want to get into the free will debate here?

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It's actually pretty short.  Have you heard of Pascal's Wager?  It was originally about religion, but I apply a similar idea to free will.  Basically, if we are, in fact just a product of our instincts and physical law, then I am not making any choice about whether or not I believe in free will and whatever hapens is the only way it could have worked out.  On the other hand, if I am as free-willed as I feel I am, then  don't see why i should try and convince mysel that I'm not.  So I won't.  But when it all comes down to it, I don't know what difference it should make to me whether I have free will or not anyway.

Back to sentience.  In a world without free will, nothing could ever be sentient the way you seem to mean it.  In a world where we are in fact making real choices, really understanding the world, etc. then we pretty clearly meet the criteria for sentience.  Err, that last bit was a circular argument.  Doh!
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Offline Jaleho

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #101 on: February 05, 2006, 07:04:30 pm »
The atom splitting thing was meant more rhetorically. Any other animal isn't going to really care about creating a more powerful more efficient energy source or whathaveyou. They'd most likely be much happier with the nut.

The entire process of evolution is about creating more powerful more efficient energy sources - it's just done biologically and automatically. If a lizard has offspring that can walk on two legs rather than four, those offspring save on energy, and can produce more offspring, thereby expanding their species. Technology is just an extension of evolution, whereby instead of evolving better eyes, we build telescopes, instead of evolving better legs, we build cars. It's all external rather than internal, but it's all the same goal - do more, better.

again my reference to the ant.  build a better mousetrap, build a better mouse.. why?  what is the purpose of improving our capacity to control the physical world?  moreover, what is the motivation?  think about this.  at best, it is an instinctual drive to gain knowledge and improve our technology.  at worst, an instinctual thirst for raw power.  there is no sentient choice in this.  the only way that man can evolve is to truely become a sentient lifeform.

Does anyone know of another species that, if given plenty of food (or the chance to seek it), free space, and opportunities to mate, will still voluntarily choose to end its own life? We live day to day based on our biological drives, but we've developed something else... sentience... and I'm not totally convinced it is a positive development...

(oh, and there - I combined responses to two people into one post - ya guys happy now? :P )
« Last Edit: February 05, 2006, 07:10:35 pm by Jaleho »

Offline Samog

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #102 on: February 05, 2006, 07:31:05 pm »
again my reference to the ant.  build a better mousetrap, build a better mouse.. why?  what is the purpose of improving our capacity to control the physical world?  moreover, what is the motivation?  think about this.  at best, it is an instinctual drive to gain knowledge and improve our technology.  at worst, an instinctual thirst for raw power.  there is no sentient choice in this.  the only way that man can evolve is to truely become a sentient lifeform.
Any other animal isn't going to really care about creating a more powerful more efficient energy source or whathaveyou. They'd most likely be much happier with the nut.
Does anyone know of another species that, if given plenty of food (or the chance to seek it), free space, and opportunities to mate, will still voluntarily choose to end its own life? We live day to day based on our biological drives, but we've developed something else... sentience... and I'm not totally convinced it is a positive development...
hay guys let's all go get lobotomies
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Offline GrrrArrgh

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #103 on: February 05, 2006, 08:01:43 pm »
The atom splitting thing was meant more rhetorically. Any other animal isn't going to really care about creating a more powerful more efficient energy source or whathaveyou. They'd most likely be much happier with the nut.

The entire process of evolution is about creating more powerful more efficient energy sources - it's just done biologically and automatically. If a lizard has offspring that can walk on two legs rather than four, those offspring save on energy, and can produce more offspring, thereby expanding their species. Technology is just an extension of evolution, whereby instead of evolving better eyes, we build telescopes, instead of evolving better legs, we build cars. It's all external rather than internal, but it's all the same goal - do more, better.


I think you're missing my point somewhere, which is that there really was no point. Other than perhaps a squirrel is going to be more interested in cracking nuts than splitting atoms. It was just an off color statement that had nothing to do with my original argument, which is that humans are by nature a bunch of arrogant bastards.


Does anyone know of another species that, if given plenty of food (or the chance to seek it), free space, and opportunities to mate, will still voluntarily choose to end its own life?

Lemmings?  ;D
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Offline TotalSandwich

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Re: Extreme Planet Types ?
« Reply #104 on: February 05, 2006, 09:02:20 pm »
Back on the extreme planet types subject-
What if you are evolving on a lava planet and you start in a pool of lava instead of a pool of goo?
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