Author Topic: Cladogram and Common Descent  (Read 38934 times)

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Offline La_farm

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #135 on: March 27, 2007, 09:11:13 pm »
Under amniota (animals classified by the presence of the amniotic egg), you have synapsids (mammals), diapsids (reptiles), and testudines (turtles).
http://tolweb.org/Amniota/14990
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Offline Dekadin

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #136 on: March 27, 2007, 09:34:29 pm »
Ah alright I stand corrected.

Anyway I'd like if things like this were include, but I doubt there will be branching lines of evolution for any creatures, yours or otherwise. Probably what will happen is with each evolution of your creature, every other creature will advance to the next step in its evolution, then the computer will add or remove lines to balance the ecosystem (it wouldn't be good if all of your small furry prey animals happened to evolve into ferocious carnivores.) I doubt the game will have a way to evolve proceedurally, it will likely just use other player's evolutions.

On the other hand, those striped herbivores didn't seem to change at all when the screeble or whatever it was called evolved. So who knows how things will work.

Offline La_farm

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #137 on: March 27, 2007, 10:02:09 pm »
I have a feeling only the avatar will evolve. It did disturb me when Will changed his Lil' Hero avatar (6 legged yellow with stripes) when the eggs hatched and then all the same creatures changed, too. I would hope the parents would remain the same, but from that video it doesn't look that way.
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Offline Siir

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #138 on: March 28, 2007, 04:22:04 am »
I have a feeling only the avatar will evolve. It did disturb me when Will changed his Lil' Hero avatar (6 legged yellow with stripes) when the eggs hatched and then all the same creatures changed, too. I would hope the parents would remain the same, but from that video it doesn't look that way.

He was in a little herd of 5-6 individuals from the looks of it. All of which evolved when he did. But the question would be are there other herds? Would there be another group of 5-6 individuals of his species on the other side of the planet that evolve independently?

Offline Netherflare

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #139 on: March 28, 2007, 04:36:01 am »
I have a feeling only the avatar will evolve. It did disturb me when Will changed his Lil' Hero avatar (6 legged yellow with stripes) when the eggs hatched and then all the same creatures changed, too. I would hope the parents would remain the same, but from that video it doesn't look that way.

He was in a little herd of 5-6 individuals from the looks of it. All of which evolved when he did. But the question would be are there other herds? Would there be another group of 5-6 individuals of his species on the other side of the planet that evolve independently?

seems like now we are starting to get into creature variation, i talked about that here: http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=8750.0 , a couple weeks ago.

Can we merge the threads again?
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Offline Siir

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #140 on: March 28, 2007, 07:37:04 am »
I'm not talking just about variation within populations of the same species but completely different evolutionary lineages. For example, Will took his yellow/red colored screeble, made it blue/red gave it bug eyes,  and gave it rhinoceros feet. It would be neat if the computer took control of a couple other  populations of screeble in different parts of the planet and perhaps gave them hair, added a pair of legs or made them elephant size with a scorpion tail etc. And then there would be a cladogram that would show how the different species were related to each other.



Something to that effect.

This wouldn't be a literal example mind you, as each of these creatures (save the two screeble forms) were all created independently of each other. But it would be cool to see the computer make similar changes to an ancestor species itself.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 07:56:26 am by Siir »

Offline Brandonazz

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #141 on: March 28, 2007, 08:39:44 am »
Hah. Love that diagram  ;D

Offline spore

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #142 on: March 28, 2007, 02:31:00 pm »
might be how the sporepedia works.

Offline jov

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #143 on: March 28, 2007, 06:47:08 pm »
i can only hope we see cladograms and speciation. but i think this is unlikely based on what we've seen so far. we do know that the computer will see what selections we've made and proffer similar styles. this could mean that it would make checks to see, for example, how many legs your creature has, how many heads, eyes, tails, etc. and attempt to pollinate your world with similar species.

however, the game is not in our hands, and i'm certain they have surprises in store for us that they have not yet revealed. so here's hoping that we can watch common descent.


as for our planet, almost all animal species have a symmetry to their boried. they all have eyes on their head which is at the fore of their body. there are notable exceptions, creatures which have no eyes, or animals -like sea urchins and sea stars- that have developed a radial symmetry of the fore and aft body plan, basically wound and folded back upon itself.  so we see things on our world -like spiders- which have more legs than us, but they still have their head in the front and abdomen in the back. and we see vertebrates that all have a dorsal spinal chord and only two eyes. ears shrink or grow as needed -mammals often have longer ears unlike their reptilian/avian cohorts- and legs will disappear -snakes, whales- when they become useless for mobility.


so yes, i hope we see chains of common descent, i hope the species on our home world evolve with our creation's evolution. even if not to meet up with it's final sapience at the end. if not, UFO stage should let you tamper with the populations as you see fit.

Offline Hydromancerx

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #144 on: March 28, 2007, 07:34:29 pm »
we had to come from some sort of reptile in the end, otherwise my bio teacher is wrong!  ;D

Yeah but not "dinosaurs".

« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 07:37:50 pm by Hydromancerx »

Offline Netherflare

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #145 on: March 28, 2007, 07:52:10 pm »
we had to come from some sort of reptile in the end, otherwise my bio teacher is wrong!  ;D

Yeah but not "dinosaurs".




dont whales have 2 limbs? and they are mammals
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Offline Siir

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #146 on: March 28, 2007, 07:58:34 pm »
Synapsids, again, are not derived from reptiles. That's an outdated theory (hence the persistence of the term "mammal-like reptile") So technically the bio teacher is wrong. Mammals, being synapsids, have a single temporal fenestra and heterodont teeth. Reptiles are diapsids and have two temporal fenestrae and homodont teeth (turtles are anapsids, but recent genetic evidence suggests that they are derived from diapsids). The Dimetrodon is more closely related to humans than it is to dinosaurs.

Dimetrodon



Quote
dont whales have 2 limbs? and they are mammals

Some prehistoric whales (I'm not sure about extant whales) had remnants of hind legs.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 08:00:06 pm by Siir »

Offline jov

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #147 on: March 28, 2007, 10:17:41 pm »
some extant whales, like the fin whale, have vestigal leg bones. this is because they can trace their lineage back to ambelocetus, the "walking whale." if you trace their heritage back even further you find that the most common extant species that has a lineage to whales is: hippopotomi. surprised? the current name for the even-toed artiodactyls is cetartiodactyl. because the cetean (whale) family is evolved from that branch.

it's kinda' how elephants and hyraxes are more closely related as afrotheres than either are to rhinos, giraffes, or chimps which also all live on the african continent.

it's kinda' how jellyfish and corals are more closely related as cnidarians than either are to sea cucumbers, brittle stars, or telost fish that also in habit their oceanic ecosystems.

there was this impressive movement in the jurassic of mammals. back then all mammals were "shrew like."  this term is confusing, as there were some mammals that were weasel like, squirrel like, or shrew like. but what that means was, all mammals in the jurassic were small. well there were two major groups of mammals. the borosphenidans (northern continent mammals of laurasia) and the australosphenidans (southern continent mammals of gondwana). the northern ones were easily recognized not just by their continental placement, but because they all gave live births. pretty much all of your modern therians come from this stock. the southern group were egg layers, and their only surviving representatives are the three species of monotremes.

what is interesting about this is that most of our modern southern hemisphere mammals are marsupial, while the northern hemisphere is ripe with placental mammals. that's because during the jurassic and creataceous the northern mammals moved into the south. live birth is a bit more reliable than egg laying, so the marsupials won out in what is now south america and later australia. the placentals moved in later into what is now africa and became the afrotheres: elephants, aarvarks, hyraxes, manatees, tenrecs, and elephant shrews. the laurasiatheres developed in the northern hemisphere and soon propogated all over, this includes pretty much every other placental mammal on the planet that isn't a afrothere. yep; cats, dolphins, colugos, bats, humans, horses, anteaters, armadillos, moles, lemurs, rabbits, beavers, sheep and whales would all be elvolved from this group of laurasiatheres. they then spread world-wide elbowing out the marsupials of south america, and it would appear they are doing much the same in australia.

there was only one branch from the sauropsids (birds, reptiles, dinosaurs) that ever evolved live-birth. the icthyosaurs evolved the ability to give birth to live young in the water. all others of the sauropsids, even the plesiosaurs (much like sea turtles), are presumed to lay eggs with a hard shells on land. we do not descend from this stock at all, however, the two branches of mammals and sauropsids both have a common ancestor in the amphibians, which leads to telost fish, which leads to sharks, and on to lampreys, sea squirts and so on. pretty soon our ancient relatives have extant species that look nothing like us; wasps, annelids, sea stars, and so on. you can even, should you go back far enough, find out were are more closely related to mushrooms than plants. and we are more closely related to plants than bacteria and archea. i'd like to think that's because eukaryotes rule.

Offline Hydromancerx

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #148 on: March 29, 2007, 01:52:07 am »
we had to come from some sort of reptile in the end, otherwise my bio teacher is wrong!  ;D

Yeah but not "dinosaurs".




dont whales have 2 limbs? and they are mammals

Most eventually lost their limbs. but some baleen whales still have tiny back leg bones.



(Plz ignore the humming bird skeleton)

Offline La_farm

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Re: Cladogram and Common Descent
« Reply #149 on: March 29, 2007, 11:12:43 am »
(Plz ignore the humming bird skeleton)
Well it makes a good point that the two are related because they share the same bones, which serve generally the same purpose.
If there was a better way to go then it would find me
I can't help it, the road just rolls out behind me
Be kind to me, or treat me mean
I'll make the most of it, I'm an extraordinary machine
-F.A.