Author Topic: Cladogram and Common Descent  (Read 38920 times)

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Offline sgore

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Cladogram and Common Descent
« on: December 11, 2005, 02:04:07 pm »
seeing as how this idea was my first post ever, in response to another post which is very deeply buried in the spore section...I figured i may as well repost the idea. I thought it would be really intresting to see in the game.

Anyway...

What I think would be cool is sort of a Darwin chart type thing. Everyone knows the picture of the guy going from the amoeba to that thing to that other thing (i believe you can fill in the blanks here) and moving up till finally reaching modern man. I think it would be fun to click on a button and see something a little like that for your creature. Showing how far you came. It could be updated every time you evolve your creature. Maybe even in a procedurally sketched style to match the Darwin chart more...or not. It's an idea.

This way you can just open it up and see how far your creature has come.


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Offline Vivec

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2005, 02:06:08 pm »
That does sound like a pretty good idea. But, maybe not everytime you evolved, because if you're just fine tuning sme stuff, it would look like the exact same creature over and over.
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Offline 762

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2005, 02:07:27 pm »
I think that sounds like an extremely cool idea. It seems simple enough to implement, but I don't really know about these things. It'd be a great little feature to add.

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Offline Hydromancerx

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2005, 03:48:46 pm »
I thought he was already going to do that in the same type of way in the Sims you can see your family tree. Except this time rather than a tree it would be a linear progression.

Offline Leng

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2005, 03:59:43 pm »
unless you created branches from the evolutionary line.  then you could select whether to have a line back from the currently selected creature, or a tree showing the entire phylogeny (a real word).  from the tree you could select any creature and begin playing it.
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Offline Interitus

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2005, 04:09:34 pm »
unless you created branches from the evolutionary line.  then you could select whether to have a line back from the currently selected creature, or a tree showing the entire phylogeny (a real word).  from the tree you could select any creature and begin playing it.

Do creatures evolve like that? As far as I can tell every creature evolves in a singular line, that you can't split up and have one specicies evolve claws and another evolve grabbers. Every crature of that species evolves along the same singular route, I've seen and heard nothing to suggest otherwise.
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Offline smjjames

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2005, 04:15:50 pm »
There is a debate among biologists (I mean paleontologists as well as other people involved in the classification and evolution of life) whether evolution is linear with sudden changes or branched with gradual changes. Its probably a mix or something, but we don't need to get caught in the debate.

What Sgore is talking about is viewing the evolutionary history of your species so it would show each step. I don't think he meant for other creatures that evolved from a common ancestor to show up. like for example you create species A, some time later species B branches off, but you don't follow that, then species C branches off and that species you follow. So species B and its descendants wouldn't show up in the lineage tree.

Offline sgore

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2005, 04:46:36 pm »
unless you created branches from the evolutionary line.  then you could select whether to have a line back from the currently selected creature, or a tree showing the entire phylogeny (a real word).  from the tree you could select any creature and begin playing it.

Do creatures evolve like that? As far as I can tell every creature evolves in a singular line, that you can't split up and have one specicies evolve claws and another evolve grabbers. Every crature of that species evolves along the same singular route, I've seen and heard nothing to suggest otherwise.

That totally goes against Darwin's theroy of evolution and survial of the fittist.

If i may quote an earlier post of mine:


The way how the evolution of a species works is sort of like a copy machine. If you make a copy of a picture then make a copy of that copy then a copy of that copy its going to look basicly the same for a while. (at least if you have a good printer and copier) But after a long time you'll start to notice the picture looking a little diffrent. possibly a little faded or maybe a little warped. It works with people and animals too. Everytime a new generation is produced their DNA is just a little diffrent then the previous generations. It ussually takes many many many generations before you really see any kind of significant diffrence between one generation and the 1st generation. That's why you can't actually watch someone evolve. (well you could try, but it would be sort of hard.)

now you may be asking "well it sounds so hit and miss. How did everything happen to evolve in just the right way for its enviornment?"

well there's a very simple answer to that. They didn't.

that's where darwin's ideas of natrual selection and survial of the fittest come in.

The way those work is. well let's say that animal A and Animal B live in the same environment and share a common ancistor, in an enviroment where all the food is on tall trees. Animal A has a very long neck, perfectly suited for its environment and gets food with ease. Animal B couldn't get higher then a meter if its life depended on it. sadly, it does. animal B dies out and animal A thrives.

another example. Creature C is really fast. Creature D isn't very fast but it can jump fairly high. A preditory flying creature swoops down and tries to get creature C. Creature C evades Capture. Creature D (who is trying to jump away) gets caught. Creature C survives, Creature D dies out

The reason why you see many animals perfectly suited for their environments and not so many of ones badly suited is because the ones that were badly suited died. In another environment, who knows, they might have lived. But they weren't in another environment.

Natural selection doesn't mean that nature evolves your creature to adapt. Your creature evolves. Nature (and its environment) just decide if the creature lives or not.

If your species can die then natural selection is in the game.

Ok, now that that's been cleared up, please continue...
(we're studying evolution in science class.)

Just saying it so you know.
Getting back on topic...

What Sgore is talking about is viewing the evolutionary history of your species so it would show each step. I don't think he meant for other creatures that evolved from a common ancestor to show up. like for example you create species A, some time later species B branches off, but you don't follow that, then species C branches off and that species you follow. So species B and its descendants wouldn't show up in the lineage tree.

Yeah, but I sort of meant instead of a tree i meant more of a horizontal thing, just to match the picture a little more. (it doesn't have to match the picture, but i thought it would be intresting if it did.

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Offline Leng

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2005, 04:47:21 pm »
no, it wouldn't branch if you just follow one creature.  but if you decided to create multiple creatures from the same evolutionary line, you would have a tree.

suppose at one point you decide to give your creature a set of slicing mandibles.  next evolution you place a tentacle at the base of each mandible so you can swing them around at will.  now you open up the evolutionary line, select the creature two evolutions back.  now you evolve it to have faster legs and bigger lungs (wink).  next brain power.  now you open the evolutionary line screen.  it shows your two most recent species, with the rest being the older species from before.  there is also a new tab showing an iconic tree chart.  click on it, and you're now on the second page of the evolutionary line screen, which shows small white dots connected by green lines.  there is no branching up to two stages back, and then you branch into two different species.  when you mouse over one of the white dots, it shows the appropriate species on a pedestal at the bottom of the screen, and you can select any of them to play.
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Offline sgore

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2005, 04:51:05 pm »
were you talking to me or smjjames?
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Offline Leng

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2005, 04:56:56 pm »
sgore: actually, it's a lot MORE consistent with evolution.  you don't see every species on the planet evolving along a single continuous path.  instead a single species could have several species directly branched off from it.  oftentimes something similar to the common ancestor will still be around millions of years later.

just a thought, but the tree would probably contain a record of your failures.  creatures that you designed badly and couldn't get to the next stage would be the equivalent of evolutionary dead-ends.
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Offline Leng

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2005, 04:57:41 pm »
i talk to anyone wise enough to listen and foolish enought to disagree with me.
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Offline Samog

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2005, 07:04:17 pm »
I thought Interitus was talking about Spore and not real evolution, but whatever.
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Offline Cobra

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2005, 11:04:53 pm »
If you go back we have to have a commen ansestor with pretty much everything on this earth. for example dogs pet dogs there are many breeds but they didn't come from someone taking a wolf and changing until they got the breed they wanted. I know breeds and species arent the same but it is an example.

Same would work for say Lions and tigers many many years ago the big cat ansestor split into 2 group one evolved into lions and lived in africa the other went to asia and became tigers of course there are more species of big cat out there and they probably had mostly a common ansestors that moved about adapted to surroundings through evolution.

Offline Leng

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Re: Darwin chart? Idea I had for spore.
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2005, 11:20:48 pm »
right, so you could create an entire evolutionary tree of just your creatures.  there would still be other animals on the planet that were from other lineages
I have been told
not by one but two of my lovers
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They call me a poet who'll never have a poem
a tiger with no taste for bone
I'm the wonderful wonderful wizard who's waltzing alone