Author Topic: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?  (Read 12310 times)

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Offline Kregaaron

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Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« on: February 13, 2010, 12:42:47 pm »
(I'm not sure if this is the appropriate section, nor if this already has a topic, if either are true, please direct me to the correct area)

I was recently pursuing GamingSteve's twitter, and came across an interesting article he mentioned

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/npd-january-2010-celebrate-industry-continues-its-decline/

He not only proclaims everyone in said article is correct, but that malstorm is one of the very few gaming journalists who "get the industry".

So, what are your guys thoughts? Hard core gaming totally dead? Casual gaming actually going to die? Something inbetween? Yes, no, maybe so?

I ask here, because it involves GamingSteve, and I found this board to have rather intelligent discussions about gaming. I'm wondering all your thoughts on this...



Offline Gorman Conall

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 12:02:34 pm »
There is much I could say on the matter but I have the flu and don't really feel like making a large post. But yes and I predicted this long ago and pretty much everything I said would come has. Causal gaming is taking over and if it does not stop soon there will be no such thing as a hard core game. The Wii has done much better then the other two consoles and the industry will go where the money is. Why spend years and millions on a brilliant in depth game when you cut both the  time and money in half and make a causal game that will sell better.

Even now we are getting casual bits in to our hardcore games. You couldn't die in fable or price of Persia in order to make it accessible to causal players. Both assassins creeds were easy, theirs no death penalty in borderlands or bio shock. And later this year the real gaming consoles both get a causal downgrade. The 360 gets project NATAL and the PS3 gets a currently unnamed motion controller. If ether of those do well, kiss gaming goodbye because the gamers that have made gaming what it is today, will be abandoned and forgotten. In favor of the people that never gave a rats ass about it

Offline Kregaaron

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2010, 12:23:52 pm »
There is much I could say on the matter but I have the flu and don't really feel like making a large post. But yes and I predicted this long ago and pretty much everything I said would come has. Causal gaming is taking over and if it does not stop soon there will be no such thing as a hard core game. The Wii has done much better then the other two consoles and the industry will go where the money is. Why spend years and millions on a brilliant in depth game when you cut both the  time and money in half and make a causal game that will sell better.

Even now we are getting casual bits in to our hardcore games. You couldn't die in fable or price of Persia in order to make it accessible to causal players. Both assassins creeds were easy, theirs no death penalty in borderlands or bio shock. And later this year the real gaming consoles both get a causal downgrade. The 360 gets project NATAL and the PS3 gets a currently unnamed motion controller. If ether of those do well, kiss gaming goodbye because the gamers that have made gaming what it is today, will be abandoned and forgotten. In favor of the people that never gave a rats ass about it

Hi, thanks for your response.

I'm going to try to play devil's advocate here, as I'm looking for opinions across the board on this subject, and hope this sparks some interesting discussion.

I think I should really define what I mean by "casual" games, and "hardcore" games. By "hardcore" games, I think I really meant "mainstream" games, as in, having more complexity than farmville or brain age, like a game like Mass Effect or GTA IV. By "hardcore", I didn't mean an 2000 grindfest where you reached level 99 in the nuclear wastes fighting countless mutants. By many "hardcore" standards, ME 2 wouldn't fit as it downsized a lot of the grinding apparent in the first game (something I didn't have a problem removing), so, I was using a different (and possibly incorrect) definition.

But to reply to what you were saying (not as a refutation, but as a devil's advocate), Let's consider that the game market is expanding. Ten years ago, the majority of published fantasy was still LotR style Epic Fantasy. Laurel K Hamilton came along with her Laurel Haimlton series and JK Rowling came out with the Harry Potter series. Since then Urban Fantasy and Children's Fantasy has grown by leaps and bounds and possibly outsells the Epic Fantasy. Has that lead to a decline in Epic Fantasy? Not at all. More games are created every year as more people and more types of people play.

The demographics of gaming have changed and not everyone is interested in running through endless corridors blowing off the heads of evil demon-alien-****s, grinding for elemental drops in Shadowmoon Valley, or figuring out what combination of conversation and gifts will get Leliana to spread her legs for you.

However, there are enough hardcore players to make Modern Warfare 2 so profitable the developers could wipe their backside with 100 bills if desired.

Again, keep in mind I'm playing devil's advocate and not trying to directly debate with you.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2010, 02:05:48 pm »
These are all meaningless terms.

If a hardcore game is defined by difficulty then hardcore (or lets face it, just generally hard) games went out of style shortly after they allowed people to save their game wheneevr they wanted, or at least just added frequent save points.

If hardcore gaming is defined by theme then it is in no danger of going away because people love guns and sex and gore.

In the end, the question is: Who cares?

There are still enough games out there to satisfy my taste in just about every game genre, from shooter to puzzler.
I doubt that will change any time soon.
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Skyward

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2010, 02:14:24 pm »
These are all meaningless terms.

If a hardcore game is defined by difficulty then hardcore (or lets face it, just generally hard) games went out of style shortly after they allowed people to save their game wheneevr they wanted, or at least just added frequent save points.

If hardcore gaming is defined by theme then it is in no danger of going away because people love guns and sex and gore.

In the end, the question is: Who cares?

There are still enough games out there to satisfy my taste in just about every game genre, from shooter to puzzler.
I doubt that will change any time soon.
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Offline Gorman Conall

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2010, 02:49:31 pm »
I classify hardcore and casual by their actual (gaming) definitions. Hardcore = games with depth such as Oblivion, Team fortress, Starcraft. Casual = shallow games. Such as Wiisports, Guitar hero and WiiFit (Fun in their own right but do we want them to take over gaming?)

Difficulty is only a single element of being casual or hardcore. Hardcore games are generally more difficult but feature difficulty levels letting any range of player play comfortably, however the game itself still keeps its depth regardless. Most casual games have a single non changeable difficulty level....easy.

Theme has nothing to do with being casual or hardcore.

Offline Snork

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2010, 03:15:02 pm »
Hardcore = games with depth such as Oblivion
Hardcore as in hard and stupidly unbalanced, right? Right?
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Offline Gorman Conall

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2010, 03:26:33 pm »
Snork personal opinions about games have no bearing on whats hardcore or casual, facts do so take your fanboyism elsewhere. I was only using oblivion as an example anyway.

Offline Kregaaron

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2010, 03:31:30 pm »
Gorman is kind of going with what I was defining "hardcore" as, I only use that word because it's the popular vernacular in the gaming community at the moment. What I've been trying to convey is, will complex games die (such as say, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Half life 2, etc. etc.) and games like FarmVille, Brain Age, and Wii Fit completely replace gaming? Or will both types be able to survive in the future gaming market, catering to two different demographs? A lot think the former can't survive, as games like ME, while profitable, are quite expensive to make, where games like FarmVille are quite inexpensive to make, and have more players.

Offline Gungnir

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2010, 03:45:14 pm »
They both have their markets. Casual's just become more profitable recently. I think.


I'm not thinking straight at the moment, so I may just be spouting bullcrap.

Offline Snork

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2010, 03:46:06 pm »
facts
What facts? I am aware that you were using an Example, but you would have been better off using Fallout 3 or Mass Effect, as it's a fact (and not 'Personal Fanboyism') that those are deeper games than Oblivion.
I don't want to start an argument anyways, lets just forget it.

As for the topic at hand, I greatly doubt that games like Farmville are going to replace 'Hardcore' games. It just seems unlikely.

It's late here so I'll explain myself better in the morning. 'Night all.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 03:49:33 pm by Snork »
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2010, 04:12:32 pm »
I classify hardcore and casual by their actual (gaming) definitions. Hardcore = games with depth such as Oblivion, Team fortress, Starcraft. Casual = shallow games. Such as Wiisports, Guitar hero and WiiFit (Fun in their own right but do we want them to take over gaming?)

I'm pretty sure you could actually name more 'hardcore' titles released in the last 12 months off the top of your head than you could so called casual ones. They're not 'dying'.

This is all just sensationalist guff started by people who irrationally dislike the success of games which fall outside the things they personally like to play most.

Lets take a look at the front page of the steam store. I think it can be considered a much less 'biased' retailer than the harcopy retailers since it has unlimited 'shelf space' and has a huge library of indie and 'casual' games.

Without scrolling down or clicking any tabs, we've got Dragon Age, STO, Bad Company 2, Bioshock 2, Global Agenda, Metro 2033, THQ complete pack, Left 4 Dead 2 and Lost Planet.
A little below that are Killing Floor, Aion, Need for Speed and Plants versus Zombies.

OH NO. A Casual Game! Our favourite hardcore games are literally being swamped by casual wank!

Not the best example perhaps, since I'm not sure what criteria the steam store decide their front page titles by, so I'll look at the top sellers.

Bad Company 2, THQ Complete, Bioshock 2, Modern Warfare 2, Aliens versus predator 2, mount and blade, total war, Mass Effect 2 and Left 4 dead 2.

Not a single casual title.

There is no threat to 'hardcore gaming'.
Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Skyward

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2010, 04:16:20 pm »
I classify hardcore and casual by their actual (gaming) definitions. Hardcore = games with depth such as Oblivion, Team fortress, Starcraft. Casual = shallow games. Such as Wiisports, Guitar hero and WiiFit (Fun in their own right but do we want them to take over gaming?)

Without scrolling down or clicking any tabs, we've got Dragon Age, STO, Bad Company 2, Bioshock 2, Global Agenda, Metro 2033, THQ complete pack, Left 4 Dead 2 and Lost Planet.
A little below that are Killing Floor, Aion, Need for Speed and Plants versus Zombies.

OH NO. A Casual Game! Our favourite hardcore games are literally being swamped by casual wank!


Besides, Plants versus Zombies kicks ass.
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Offline PatMan33

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2010, 04:27:13 pm »
Hardcore games and hardcore gamers are by no means dying. True hardcore gamers have always been a small group - a group that most of us (myself included) have never been a part of. There will always been "hardcore" games tailored for that "hardcore" audience. They just aren't making the same kinds of headlines that they used to now that more people are becoming "gamers".

The question I think a lot of people mean to be asking in this case is whether or not as many people appreciate games, their history, and their accomplishments.

Offline Skyward

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Re: Are "hardcore" games a dying breed?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2010, 04:35:06 pm »
The question I think a lot of people mean to be asking in this case is whether or not as many people appreciate games, their history, and their accomplishments.

To which I would have to say: No.

Nowadays, a gamer is someone who plays CoD:MW2 and nothing else, claiming its the greatest game ever and shooting you a look whenever you mention a game like Half-Life or TF2.

At least, thats how everyone is around where I live >_>
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 05:25:32 pm by Skyward »
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