Author Topic: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'  (Read 33524 times)

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Offline SL

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2008, 10:10:49 pm »
In the EULA Securom is mentioned and what it does as well.
Once you agree with the EULA you basically cannot claim you didn't know, in best case this action suit will only make them have to mention that it uses Securom on the box.

Bull****! I read the EULA when I installed Spore, and it didn't mention SecuROM in there anywhere. (You might call me crazy, but I actually read the EULAs of programs before agreeing to them, although my eyes glaze over at the PARAGRAPHS WHICH ARE IN ALL CAPS, SO THEY COULD HAVE THEORETICALLY HIDDEN IT IN THERE)

To be doubly sure, I just googled 'spore license agreement', opened up a PDF-converted-to-HTML-by-google of the license agreement, and searched it for 'secuROM' to confirm that it really isn't mentioned anywhere in it.

(I have a feeling that if I tried to run the spore installer to see the EULA, it would just say "But spore's already installed!" and refuse to show the EULA, since the creature creator did the same thing when I tried to look at its EULA again before spore came out)

Offline Crowster

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2008, 10:45:25 pm »
It's true. Nowhere in the EULA does it tell you that it will be installing SecuROM, let alone the risk involved or that it will be impossible to remove without registry edits or a full wiping of the drive.

Also, call me crazy, but I can't find ANY mention of the DRM scheme on the box, in the box, anywhere on the front, back, or inside of the manual ... or anywhere.

This is the closest I can find, on the back of my manual.

Quote
Internet connection, online authentication and end user license agreement required to play. To access online features, you must register online with the enclosed serial code. Only one registration available per game. EA terms and conditions and feature updates can be found at www.ea.com. You must be 13+ to register online. EA may retire online features after 30 days notice posted on www.ea.com

No reference to SecuROM, what it does, or how it works. Not even a mention of the install limit. However, I see that they covered themselves in the case of "retiring online features." Do the AUTHENTICATION SERVERS count as an online feature? Sounds like they could, at any point, decide to cut the activation for Spore, making any future copies of the game null and void. Could we be facing this 10 years down the line?

But that's all beside the point. I have dissected my Spore box/manual up, down, left, and right, and I have yet to find any mention of SecuROM, and as was stated before me, it's also not mentioned in the EULA. It is, more or less, exactly what the lawsuit claims it to be, a program that is installed without the user's knowledge along side the product, that may cause problems, and that can not be easily removed from your system.

Offline DylanTK

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2008, 12:08:21 am »

Sounds like they could, at any point, decide to cut the activation for Spore, making any future copies of the game null and void. Could we be facing this 10 years down the line?


EA would only cut online features from Spore when they went out of business, and by the time EA is no more, we will have already made emulators to play downloaded versions of Spore and Sims 3 on our holographic computers.  :D

It sounds like sarcasm, but I'm actually pretty serious.. The games of today may very well be obsolete by the time EA kicks the bucket. Even if something did happen in the near future, the players would either figure out how to hack the purchased game into overriding those security measures, or simply download the pirated version.

If a game is popular, then no matter how old it is, there will still be someone who has a functioning version. Heck, I still have the SimLife CD, floppy discs, booklets, large manual, and even the advertisements for computer hardware and other Maxis games all inside the box it originally came in. Booyah.  :P

Offline Crowster

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2008, 01:40:59 am »

Sounds like they could, at any point, decide to cut the activation for Spore, making any future copies of the game null and void. Could we be facing this 10 years down the line?


EA would only cut online features from Spore when they went out of business, and by the time EA is no more, we will have already made emulators to play downloaded versions of Spore and Sims 3 on our holographic computers.  :D

It sounds like sarcasm, but I'm actually pretty serious.. The games of today may very well be obsolete by the time EA kicks the bucket. Even if something did happen in the near future, the players would either figure out how to hack the purchased game into overriding those security measures, or simply download the pirated version.

If a game is popular, then no matter how old it is, there will still be someone who has a functioning version. Heck, I still have the SimLife CD, floppy discs, booklets, large manual, and even the advertisements for computer hardware and other Maxis games all inside the box it originally came in. Booyah.  :P

But games that are obsolete today are still played. If a game like Sim City 2000 or 3000 had online activation, do you really think that they would keep the activation servers running today? Although with Spore that's moot as we will most likely have gone well past our 5 machine limit by then. The thing is, I still install and play those old games semi-regularly, and it's a shame that I won't be able to do the same for Spore.

Still, has very little to do with the topic at hand. Just something I ran across while looking for secuROM information.

Offline CosmicD

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2008, 02:25:15 am »
finally, we now know what the anti drm bandwagon looks like:



It's as if basicly anything just goes there.

Offline Absinth

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2008, 05:47:56 am »
In the EULA Securom is mentioned and what it does as well.
Once you agree with the EULA you basically cannot claim you didn't know, in best case this action suit will only make them have to mention that it uses Securom on the box.

Bull****! I read the EULA when I installed Spore, and it didn't mention SecuROM in there anywhere. (You might call me crazy, but I actually read the EULAs of programs before agreeing to them, although my eyes glaze over at the PARAGRAPHS WHICH ARE IN ALL CAPS, SO THEY COULD HAVE THEORETICALLY HIDDEN IT IN THERE)

To be doubly sure, I just googled 'spore license agreement', opened up a PDF-converted-to-HTML-by-google of the license agreement, and searched it for 'secuROM' to confirm that it really isn't mentioned anywhere in it.

(I have a feeling that if I tried to run the spore installer to see the EULA, it would just say "But spore's already installed!" and refuse to show the EULA, since the creature creator did the same thing when I tried to look at its EULA again before spore came out)

Not literally but i mean the copyright protection that they use is mentioned!
They don't need to mention the software's name btw!
The reason why is because they have a contract together Sony and EA.
Maybe better if all you whiners would also read the Californian law together with that EULA before posting.
Here's a snippet from the EULA mentioning the DRM, in case you missed it.

"Technical Protection Measures. Our Software uses access
control and copy protection technology. An internet connection
is required to authenticate the Software and verify your license.
If you are not connected to the Internet, you will not be able to
use the Software until you reestablish an internet connection
and verify the license. The first end user of this License can
install and authenticate the Software on a set number of
machines which may vary by product. If the Software permits
access to additional online features, only one copy of the
Software may access those features at one time. Additional
terms and registration may be required to access online
services and to download Software updates and patches. Only
licensed software can be used to access online services, and
download updates and patches. If you disable or otherwise
tamper with the technical protection measures, the Software
will not function properly."
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Offline immortius

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2008, 06:32:37 am »
That doesn't mention:

a) That a separate piece of software is installed for the protection
b) That the separate piece of software is not uninstalled when you uninstall Spore.
c) That the separate piece of software is given high-level system access.

Offline CosmicD

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2008, 06:49:53 am »
If you install a game you always install software by different vendors. THe developers themself use different physics engines or licens parts of their software from different software producers. And sudenly  because it's DRM this is bad ? Yet another useless arguement methinks. You should also uninstall all your nvidia/ati drivers also, surely there'll be things included that you only will see in small print.

sigh, it becomes much more than tiring.

Offline Yokto

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2008, 07:07:40 am »
Not true. Most of the Software you do install ether ask for you to install it or is so tied in to the program it self (The engine you mentioned) that is basically a part of the program. And all of it is easily removable. I can remove Direct X for example if i do not want it on my machine without to much effort. DRM schemes however are often made to be hard to remove and hard to detect. Not that it has ever stop a pirate. Even a newbie pirate often enough to ether to circumvent it or even totally remove it.

I believe they add these DRM fixes mainly so that the high up can say they did something (Wile in reality they did nothing.)
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Offline SL

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2008, 10:07:39 am »

Sounds like they could, at any point, decide to cut the activation for Spore, making any future copies of the game null and void. Could we be facing this 10 years down the line?


EA would only cut online features from Spore when they went out of business, and by the time EA is no more, we will have already made emulators to play downloaded versions of Spore and Sims 3 on our holographic computers.  :D

It sounds like sarcasm, but I'm actually pretty serious.. The games of today may very well be obsolete by the time EA kicks the bucket. Even if something did happen in the near future, the players would either figure out how to hack the purchased game into overriding those security measures, or simply download the pirated version.

If a game is popular, then no matter how old it is, there will still be someone who has a functioning version. Heck, I still have the SimLife CD, floppy discs, booklets, large manual, and even the advertisements for computer hardware and other Maxis games all inside the box it originally came in. Booyah.  :P

There's a variable in the game data files (one of the cht files and maybe also in a prop file, haven't looked for it there) which specifies what server to connect to, so it would be possible to make server emulators (I'd rather say replacement servers), like what was done for Ultima Online. The problem is that it couldn't be done *after* EA died, because you'd need to analyze the packet stream between the client and server to figure out what the client's saying and what the replacement server should respond with.

Of course if they're smart they may have encrypted the communications properly to prevent this...

Offline Yokto

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2008, 10:21:04 am »
There is always a way. But one may not want to wait until 2050 when computers are powerful enough to bruteforce the verification.
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Offline DylanTK

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2008, 11:45:54 am »
Quote
But games that are obsolete today are still played.

Thus why I said:

Quote
If a game is popular, then no matter how old it is, there will still be someone who has a functioning version.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 11:48:19 am by DylanTK »

Offline Crowster

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2008, 12:53:58 pm »
Personal note really quick.

Maybe better if all you whiners would also read the Californian law together with that EULA before posting.

Come on. We can discuss the subject without comments like this. I don't care what you think of the anti-DRM crowd, you can discuss the topic and the merit of the lawsuit without name calling.

"Technical Protection Measures. Our Software uses access
control and copy protection technology. An internet connection
is required to authenticate the Software and verify your license.
If you are not connected to the Internet, you will not be able to
use the Software until you reestablish an internet connection
and verify the license. The first end user of this License can
install and authenticate the Software on a set number of
machines which may vary by product. If the Software permits
access to additional online features, only one copy of the
Software may access those features at one time. Additional
terms and registration may be required to access online
services and to download Software updates and patches. Only
licensed software can be used to access online services, and
download updates and patches. If you disable or otherwise
tamper with the technical protection measures, the Software
will not function properly."

See, this is, more or less, what it says on the back of the manual. It mentions the install limit and online activation, which is not what the lawsuit is about. They aren't suing EA over only being able to install their copy of Spore 5 times, they are suing over a potentially harmful piece of software being installed without the user's knowledge. The claim is that SecuROM is potentially harmful to a number of machines, is installed without the user's knowledge, and can not be removed without messing with the registry (which can be dangerous) or completely wiping the drive. At no point does it say it's installing anything on your computer, or at what means you'd have to go through to remove it if any problems occur.

The EULA does a fine job explaining what limitations you have, but not what risk you are taking, which is why they are getting sued.

Offline CosmicD

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2008, 01:38:31 pm »
maybe in 2050 computers will also be powerful enoug to run 2048bit virtual encrypted memory space where the game is being run in proteced mode (by the cp/protection:).. A few processors will do that, while others will show the graphics , sound etc.

Offline Absinth

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Re: EA hit with class action suit over 'Spore'
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2008, 02:24:53 pm »
Personal note really quick.

Maybe better if all you whiners would also read the Californian law together with that EULA before posting.

Come on. We can discuss the subject without comments like this. I don't care what you think of the anti-DRM crowd, you can discuss the topic and the merit of the lawsuit without name calling.



Yeah i agree, and i sincerely apologize for my reaction.
I also dislike drm, don't get me wrong on that, but it's part of the gaming industry for so long now and tbh i never had problems with Securom on my computers.
Maybe I'm more fortunate then some others on that but i do think that people are overreacting lately.

Personal note really quick.

"Technical Protection Measures. Our Software uses access
control and copy protection technology. An internet connection
is required to authenticate the Software and verify your license.
If you are not connected to the Internet, you will not be able to
use the Software until you reestablish an internet connection
and verify the license. The first end user of this License can
install and authenticate the Software on a set number of
machines which may vary by product. If the Software permits
access to additional online features, only one copy of the
Software may access those features at one time. Additional
terms and registration may be required to access online
services and to download Software updates and patches. Only
licensed software can be used to access online services, and
download updates and patches. If you disable or otherwise
tamper with the technical protection measures, the Software
will not function properly."

See, this is, more or less, what it says on the back of the manual. It mentions the install limit and online activation, which is not what the lawsuit is about. They aren't suing EA over only being able to install their copy of Spore 5 times, they are suing over a potentially harmful piece of software being installed without the user's knowledge. The claim is that SecuROM is potentially harmful to a number of machines, is installed without the user's knowledge, and can not be removed without messing with the registry (which can be dangerous) or completely wiping the drive. At no point does it say it's installing anything on your computer, or at what means you'd have to go through to remove it if any problems occur.

The EULA does a fine job explaining what limitations you have, but not what risk you are taking, which is why they are getting sued.

You have a good point that the EULA doesn't mention that it installs a separate program, which is hard to uninstall yes.
Although while they don't have to mention that in fact, it might be better that it is written in there, on that i do agree.
You know I'm not so scared about piracy killing PC-gaming, I'm more scared about action suits like these that make investors less likely to spend their money on new titles for PC's.
I'm also afraid that company's will simply move towards consoles.
Many hate EA for using securom, but what would you do when others copied your work and investment time after time again?
They're still the largest and best selling gaming company on this planet, so in their eyes this strategy works.
I also wonder how they will prove that SecuROM "only" is potentially harmful.
As far as i know every program can be potentially harmful, even the game itself.
And again i repeat here, I'm not pro DRM, in fact i wished it wasn't needed, but unfortunately as long as it helps even 0.01% to reduce piracy they will prefer to have it.
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