Author Topic: Blatant ripping off.  (Read 11209 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SpecialBrownies

  • Donkey Kong King
  • *****
  • Posts: 1034
  • They look so special!
    • View Profile
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2008, 04:04:56 am »
Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment... only because it seems to be a very popular line in this thread.

But in all actuality, I disagree with Hydro and the like, and agree with azareon and such.

You uploaded it, it's there for people to do whatever they please with. That's what Spore's about.

I know you spent all sorts of time on the Naucean and such, I remember when it was the first MY NEW CREATURE thread, and I followed it for quite some time.

But if you didn't want people touching it, you shouldn't have uploaded it, and that's that.
"If you put an infinite amount of monkeys in a room with computers, they would code Spore."

                                                        -SpecialBrownies

Offline DarkDragon

  • Altered Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7160
    • View Profile
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2008, 04:12:39 am »
Stop whining. Anyone can upload anything they like and they don't have to give credit to anyone. You need to learn to accept that.

Sorry if I find the word "whining" a bit offensive, therefore leading me to post a somewhat agressive post.

1. We're not whining, we're complaining and we have a right to that.
2. Sure they can, it even makes me wonder if you're one of those people who uploads others' creatures by the nature of your post. Now I guess I can go to your house, steal your TV and you'll be fine with it, since stealing is ok for you.
3. If people could learn to accept theft there wouldn't be laws against it... oh boy, the irony

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment... only because it seems to be a very popular line in this thread.

But in all actuality, I disagree with Hydro and the like, and agree with azareon and such.

You uploaded it, it's there for people to do whatever they please with. That's what Spore's about.

I know you spent all sorts of time on the Naucean and such, I remember when it was the first MY NEW CREATURE thread, and I followed it for quite some time.

But if you didn't want people touching it, you shouldn't have uploaded it, and that's that.

Your post was polite unlike Paroxysm. So, I'll respond in the same way.

They can upload whatever they want from whoever they want, but now look at the other side. Why should I stop from uploading just so people don't copy me? If everyone stopped from showing stuff to the world because they were afraid someone would copy them a lot of stuff would have been lost in our history.

The fact that the Spore team is working on a way to protect peoples creations proves that it is an issue that they (Maxis/EA) don't want to happen. So, look at the real world, there are laws against theft. Those people saying this is not a problem are wrong, this is stealing and as I already said: if it wasn't wrong to do it then Maxis/EA wouldn't be trying to solve it.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:17:00 am by DarkDragon »
DarkDragon's Minecraft Survival Server (use this as the IP):

gamingsteve.dyndns.org

- The server uses a whitelist, if you're not on the whitelist (can't connect), PM me your minecraft name.

Offline Feigro

  • Star Castle Cadet
  • ****
  • Posts: 548
  • Yea. Really.
    • View Profile
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2008, 04:15:39 am »
Recieving credit to me is absolutely irrelevent.

If somebody swipes a creature of mine it means there's that much more of a chance someone else will get to experience it. So long as my creatures are providing fun and entertainment I'm satisfied. I don't need a pat on the back for it.

Hell, even the process of stealing the creature probably grants satisfaction to someone. Perhaps they suck at creating stuff. So they swipe yours to get a feeling of satisfaction. Hey, if that's what they need to get off in life, then take every single one of my creatures. My self esteem, ego, and confidence is perfectly adaquet without input from other people. Least of all in a community surrounding a video game where interactions will become little more than a Myspace equivalent. Again, I'm creating stuff to provide entertainment to people. If someone gets entertainment from stealing my creature, well, first of all I'm aware of how easy and possible it is once I hit upload, and second, I'd encourage it. If it's how someone enjoys my creature, then great! It doesn't effect me. If anything, it further spreads my creature around to more people to have fun with it, like I already mentioned.

I lose nothing from having things stolen. In my opinion, no one loses anything from having creatures stolen. So I honestly don't see why people bother to care so much.

Also, I just read a few more replies to this thread that I missed and I agree with Azareon, SpecialB, Paroxysm, etc. I'm on that side of the fence.

if it wasn't wrong to do it then Maxis/EA wouldn't be trying to solve it.
This is easily debatable. It's very possible their response to these kinds of issues is entirely dependant on Community response.

Scenario one; No one complains about creature stealing. EA Maxis doesn't bother with creature stealing.
Scenario two; No one complains about creature stealing. EA Maxis tries to solve creature stealing.
Scenario three; People complain about creature stealing. EA Maxis tries to solve creature stealing.
Scenario four; People complain about creature stealing. EA Maxis doesn't bother with creature stealing.

Since we've heard they're thinking about the issue, then naturally it's either scenarios two or three taking place. So don't claim some kind of idealogy exists when you have no perspective on the situation short of being someone on the internet. Maxis' intentions for solving the issue could be entirely dependant on community response and have nothing at all to do with internal philosophy.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:30:14 am by Feigro »
"We're calling it Spore..."

Offline DarkDragon

  • Altered Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7160
    • View Profile
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2008, 04:29:05 am »
Recieving credit to me is absolutely irrelevent.

If somebody swipes a creature of mine it means there's that much more of a chance someone else will get to experience it. So long as my creatures are providing fun and entertainment I'm satisfied. I don't need a pat on the back for it.

Hell, even the process of stealing the creature probably grants satisfaction to someone. Perhaps they suck at creating stuff. So they swipe yours to get a feeling of satisfaction. Hey, if that's what they need to get off in life, then take every single one of my creatures. My self esteem, ego, and confidence is perfectly adaquet without input from other people. Least of all in a community surrounding a video game where interactions will become little more than a Myspace equivalent. Again, I'm creating stuff to provide entertainment to people. If someone gets entertainment from stealing my creature, well, first of all I'm aware of how easy and possible it is once I hit upload, and second, I'd encourage it. If it's how someone enjoys my creature, then great! It doesn't effect me. If anything, it further spreads my creature around to more people to have fun with it, like I already mentioned.

I lose nothing from having things stolen. In my opinion, no one loses anything from having creatures stolen. So I honestly don't see why people bother to care so much.

Also, I just read a few more replies to this thread that I missed and I agree with Azareon, SpecialB, Paroxysm, etc. I'm on that side of the fence.



Sure, getting your creatures stolen must be flattering, after all someone with no creativity whatsoever is copying something you made so it must be good.

Now let's get to the point.
1. Once they reupload it, it is no longer yours, it is yours and theirs.
2. Point 1 creates a problem, keeping the stats of your creature. It will no longer be one but 2 or whatever many were copied going around, eventually the stats about that species will be completely biased.
3. There is something to gain actually, reputation/popularity. If you want as many creatures to see your creatures and even get them then the best way for that to happen is for them to get featured. Now, imagine someone copies your creature and their upload is featured. They'll be getting more downloads than you, probably people will even get other creatures they have stolen from all over the place and the original creator is left pissed off and with no good way of showing his content to the world.

There are probably more but I'm tired.

if it wasn't wrong to do it then Maxis/EA wouldn't be trying to solve it.
This is easily debatable. It's very possible their response to these kinds of issues is entirely dependant on Community response.

Scenario one; No one complains about creature stealing. EA Maxis doesn't bother with creature stealing.
Scenario two; No one complains about creature stealing. EA Maxis tries to solve creature stealing.
Scenario three; People complain about creature stealing. EA Maxis tries to solve creature stealing.
Scenario four; People complain about creature stealing. EA Maxis doesn't bother with creature stealing.

Since we've heard they're thinking about the issue, then naturally it's either scenarios two or three taking place. So don't tout claim some king of idealogy you have no perspective on. Maxis' intentions for solving the issue could be entirely dependant on community response and not internal philosophy.

Actually, we have been discussing this issue for ages and in a recent interview they said that they tried several ways of protecting the authorship of creatures. They were thinking of making a timeline for creature changes, with the original creator at the start branching off into several creatures. Now this would be entertaining since we would have some kind of evolutionary path while keeping all the original authors and modifications in their rightful place. The fact that they prototyped this before anyone could complain (you can't really complain before a game is out unless you have tried it) means it is most likely scenario two ;)

EDIT:
The guy removed it, so it's fine for me now.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:45:09 am by DarkDragon »
DarkDragon's Minecraft Survival Server (use this as the IP):

gamingsteve.dyndns.org

- The server uses a whitelist, if you're not on the whitelist (can't connect), PM me your minecraft name.

Offline Feigro

  • Star Castle Cadet
  • ****
  • Posts: 548
  • Yea. Really.
    • View Profile
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2008, 04:44:50 am »
Now let's get to the point.
Okay.

1. Once they reupload it, it is no longer yours, it is yours and theirs.

Did you miss the part where I said I don't care? If that's their fun, then that's their fun. I made creatures for people to be entertained. To rephrase my general sentiment, I don't need a pat on the back for it.

2. Point 1 creates a problem, keeping the stats of your creature. It will no longer be one but 2 or whatever many were copied going around, eventually the stats about that species will be completely biased.

Again, only relevent for people who care about that stuff. Even still, god forbid the number on how many times your creature was downloaded/killed/befriended/whatever isn't an accurate number. Now, my first post was speaking generally, and here we're having a personal back and forth now, but my next statement isn't intended to offend you specifically as I know nothing about you nor presume to understand how you function as a person - This kind of mentality only speaks to me as someone who needs that "pat on the back". That kind of person who draws a picture and puts it up not for the entertainment of drawing a picture and spreading "joy" (lack of a better idea), but so they can get the satisfaction of how that picture is recieved. An ego boost, if you will.

Am I little extreme in that belief? Yes. But I don't attribut it to the stats thing really, more so the opposition to stealing and wanting credit for ones crap. The stats thing I view as a different issue and my simple response to that was the previously stated - "Who cares if the number isn't exactly accurate?". With the amount of creatures (millions) that'll one day exist, and the amount of creatures being the exact same (congradulations, you've created the 249th xenomorph), the number of your creatures stats will be significantly low anyway.

I'm gonna break the last point into two parts. First real quickl
3. There is something to gain actually, reputation/popularity.

Again (or perhaps I haven't said it at all yet), this is my personal opinion on this kind of attitude, but I find this way of thinking utterly rediculous. Now, don't take this as a direct insult if that's something your looking to get from Spore. Everyone is 100% entitle to their own things that bring them pleasure. I don't think less of people for this kind of thinking. I just think the idea in itself, independant of who thinks it, is purely a futile investment of ones emotional/mental/whatever interests.

If you want as many creatures to see your creatures and even get them then the best way for that to happen is for them to get featured. Now, imagine someone copies your creature and their upload is featured. They'll be getting more downloads than you, probably people will even get other creatures they have stolen from all over the place and the original creator is left pissed off and with no good way of showing his content to the world..

So let me see if I can sum this up;

Me - I want people to experience and derrive fun from my creatures

Response - Stealers could have my creature featured which gets them downloaded more

So... Why should I be upset with the result? This goes back to my question of whether you understood the idea behind my post. If somebody stole my creature and it got featured (for whatever reason, since it wasn't featured under my title/account)  I'd be thrilled. My creature is now featured.

Does it have my name on it? No. Do I care? No. Why? because I don't need that pat on the back. I'm perfectly content knowing that the second I hit the upload button - thousands of people will find entertainment in something I made. I don't need to be acknowledged for it.

Or perhaps more accurately and less volatile way to phrase it would be that I don't care if people don't know who the creature truly came from. I'll know. It doesn't matter if they know.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:49:21 am by Feigro »
"We're calling it Spore..."

Offline DarkDragon

  • Altered Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 7160
    • View Profile
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2008, 04:51:59 am »
I wont quote you since it's too long :P

The way my mind works is like that of an artist, every artist likes to be recognized for his work even if he gains nothing else for it. Now, probably you think differently since you don't care but it doesn't give the same kind of pride in your work if someone is looking at your work labeled with the name of another person.

Since there is no money to gain from whatever you make in Spore, the only real purpose of your creatures is to show up in other peoples galaxies, sure I'll be happy if a creatured copied from me will gain popularity since I know it is mine, but other people don't.

Now, don't think I'm an attention wh*** just because I want to get recognition for my work, as I said before that is how an artists mind works. And I'm pretty sure most people on this forum think that creatures should be protected (I'll make a poll on that just to be really sure :P).
DarkDragon's Minecraft Survival Server (use this as the IP):

gamingsteve.dyndns.org

- The server uses a whitelist, if you're not on the whitelist (can't connect), PM me your minecraft name.

Offline Feigro

  • Star Castle Cadet
  • ****
  • Posts: 548
  • Yea. Really.
    • View Profile
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2008, 05:00:32 am »
I can say I understand the other perspective. Which is why my original post was more general and largely spoke of my own opinion on the matter.

In the end, EA is looking into it regardless of any of our opinions. If it gets fixed, huzzah, if not, well shucks. In the event it can't be fixed though, I'd recommend people shift their perspectives a bit solely due to the fact that Spore will begin to cause frustration in one of it's primary functions. Frustration to which there'd be (at that point) no remedy.

Now though, hopes up I guess. Anyway, I can't really continue to debate this issue, nor did I really intend to or care to. So take care.  ;)
"We're calling it Spore..."

Offline Grizzlepaw

  • Atari Combat Vet
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Da bears!
    • View Profile
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2008, 05:27:44 am »
here's an easy way they could do it

they append a small  several byte suffix to every png created from all the spore editors. The suffix would have this format

<unique account tag><date created><evolutionary tree data>


To explain:

Unique account tag - would be a bit string unique to every spore account set up.  This would allow us to trace every PNG to the original owners account regardless of where it travels and how it is modified

Date Created - this memory block would log the date created and each successive save for that instance of the file so it would take the form of...

<original save date><save2><save3>save4>.... ad infinitum, and would be very memory light

Evolutionary tree data - This part is the kicker, it's so frikken easy.  On each save of the file the spore program generates a new, random, 2 byte block.  A 2 byte block allows for over 16000 permutations, so the unique evolutionary paths would be preserved extremely well and you would likely never see an instance of falsely correlated independant saves.  The spore server could then reference all the copies it has on file and generate a tree.  Let me explain with examples (i'll use numbers 1-10 instead of 1-16384).

Original naucean, random block generated on initial save<3>
Suffix info <hydros ID><date info><evol data<3>>

Ripoffean, blocks <3><6><8><1><7>
Suffix info <hydros ID><date info><evol data<3><6><8><1><7>>

Tributean, blocks <3><9>
Suffix info <hydros ID><date info><evol data<3><9>>

Ripoffean lite, blocks <3><6><8><3><9>
Suffix info <hydros ID><date info><evol data<3><6><8><3><9>>

Tributean 3.0, blocks <3><9><2><5>
Suffix info <hydros ID><date info><evol data<3><9><2><5>>

Tributean Beta, blocks <3><9><3><9>
Suffix info <hydros ID><date info><evol data<3><9><3><9>>

So lets reconstruct their paths from the data


Gen 1           Gen 2                  Gen 3                 Gen 4                    Gen 5
                                              <2>offline copy-<5> Tributean 3.0
                                           /   
                    <9>Tributean
                  /                        \
                 /                            <3>offline copy-<9> Tributean Beta
<3>Naucean
                \
                 \                                                   <1>offline copy----<7> Ripoffean
                  \                                                 /
                    <6>offline copy --- <8> offline copy
                                                                    \
                                                                     <3>offline copy-----<9> Ripoffean Lite


So with a simple suffix generating program we are able to easily discern and track the editing history of every spore PNG file in the online database creating a sort of evolutionary tree for each and every creation.  The encoding would be between ten and several hundred bytes of data (in the most extreme cases) an amount that would add extremely negligible weight to the PNG files.  Even just adding an original creator ID to the files would halt a problem like this dead in its tracks, and there we are talking about literally like ten bytes of data.

I don't know why they wouldn't do something like this.

-Brad
"Live each day as if it is your last. Learn as if you'll live forever." -Mahatma Ghandi

Offline Hydromancerx

  • Master of Orion
  • *****
  • Posts: 12320
  • Klaatu Barada Nikto!
    • View Profile
    • Sagan 4
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2008, 06:35:27 am »
@ Feigro

I know you don't care but this is my view on it ...

1. If people take my creature but say they took it, thus giving credit = Happy Hydro   :)

2. If people take my creature and don't even bother to change the tags = Sad Hydro  :'(

3. If people take my creature and replace the tags so I could never see it and thus never know = Neutral Hydro  :-\

4. If people take my creature but say they took it, thus giving credit and then improve it to be awesome = Extremely Happy Hydro  ;D

5. If people take my creature and give it a penis or boobs = Disgusted Hydro  :-X
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 06:37:08 am by Hydromancerx »

Offline Crowster

  • Defender Devotee
  • ***
  • Posts: 437
  • It's Crow-Time, Baby!
    • View Profile
    • The Adventures of Crow-Man
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2008, 06:57:30 am »
There is nothing wrong with wanting credit for something you have made. Be it a creature in Spore, a piece of fiction, or some visual art.

It's not just wanting credit for what you've done. Not just wanting that "pat on the back." It's also the thought of SOMEONE ELSE getting that "pat on the back" for something that YOU spent a lot of time and energy on. Something YOU made, and YOU were proud of. It's not

It's why something like creative commons exists. When you license something under creative commons, you're giving people freedom to share it with anyone they see fit. You're making it legal for anyone to distribute your work. Someone who would opt for such a thing is not looking for a "pat on the back." They want their hard work to get out there, and for people to enjoy it. This doesn't mean that someone wouldn't still want to protect their work, however, which is why Creative Commons gives you the option to specify things like, "No commercial uses" and the like. They may have made something that they are proud of, and are giving it away for free, but maybe that doesn't mean they want OTHER people to profit from the work they spent so much time on.

I'm not trying to say that Spore creatures function under Creative Commons rules or anything, but I think there is a parallel there. You may be making something for the community, something for other people to enjoy rather than just the credit, but that doesn't mean you want OTHER people to get recognition from something YOU did. That's the point where it starts to put a bitter taste in my mouth.

All they need to do is say where they got the original creature from, and I'm fine.

Offline Granite T. Rock

  • Intellivision Junkie
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
    • View Profile
    • Granite's Homepage
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2008, 07:01:38 am »
I second Grizzlepaw.

Also lets not forget there are likely people on the server who are either too young or naive to have actually considered they are stealing some else's work.  So something integrated into the game would be ideal.
My Spore Profile  ****  My Spore Videos
Wii Friend Code: 7772 0178 1092 3363  Mario Kart Code: 2363-6666-4480 (PM me when you add me)

Offline Hydromancerx

  • Master of Orion
  • *****
  • Posts: 12320
  • Klaatu Barada Nikto!
    • View Profile
    • Sagan 4
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2008, 07:02:38 am »
All they need to do is say where they got the original creature from, and I'm fine.

Exactly. However I do not want to be blamed for it being offensive if some takes my creature and adds offensive content to it.

Offline Crowster

  • Defender Devotee
  • ***
  • Posts: 437
  • It's Crow-Time, Baby!
    • View Profile
    • The Adventures of Crow-Man
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2008, 07:13:36 am »
All they need to do is say where they got the original creature from, and I'm fine.

Exactly. However I do not want to be blamed for it being offensive if some takes my creature and adds offensive content to it.

So, the Nausemin creature is out, then?  ;)

I think that SOMETHING needs to be done. The creatures may be "owned by EA" or whatever, but if this kind of thing starts driving people away from the Spore experience, it's something that needs to be addressed. The idea of a creature iteration tree, with who created/edited each iteration, is a brilliant idea, and I would strongly endorse such a measure. Heck, I might LIKE to see what people were turning my creations into. What kind of neat stuff did my base creature inspire and such.

Offline econundrum

  • Mystery House Madman
  • **
  • Posts: 223
    • View Profile
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2008, 09:12:59 am »
Honestly if people want to make re-colours of my creations please feel free by uploading them I agreed to share them with the community and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all.

I donít do that personally so please donít start assuming just because I am not mad about it that I do it, I have more imagination than that and am far too busy working on my own creations to spend my time re-colouring those of others. Seems a rather dull thing to do with such a wonderful tool to me.

Lastly I donít see how any sort of security designed to prevent this would not have a serious negative impact on the game and be fairly much unworkable.
"The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations."

David Friedman.

http://www.spore.com/view/profile/econundrum

Offline WeatherMAN

  • Rigel Rescuer
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
  • ^ He's rocking out ^
    • View Profile
    • My Spore Creations!
Re: Blatant ripping off.
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2008, 09:45:38 am »
I would be irritated if someone just stole it without giving credit b/c it is just not proper etiquette... If you give credit, I am all cool with it as I don't see it as 'stealing'... I guess the reason why it irks me is that if the stolen creature (without credit) that shows up in someone's game the person who likes the creature won't be able to see my other creations and maybe join my sporecast... but that is more of an ego thing I guess than anything that really matters, though it does hurt the potential of people joining gamingsteve or its sporecast simple b/c they wont see my tags for gamingsteve... which I guess was bad... sorry if I meandered through that logic... sometimes it is hard to put these things in good solid words
Visit: My Spore Creations | My Sporepedia Profile
...Please Comment & Vote Them Up! Their may be cookies involved...
OK... so there aren't any cookies... do it because I have an undying need to get approval from people I've never me