Author Topic: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?  (Read 13917 times)

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Offline Doomsday

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2008, 09:05:09 am »
stuff

Woah DDay, time on your hands?
I'm proud to be a part of this community because, unlike most forums, flaming is kept to a minimum, and usually polite discussion of certain things will ultimately result in "agree to disagree".
Both DDay and Spore-addict could go round in circles here......so lets see what you at least agree on?
There will always be disagreements, because no-one is sure of anything at all. Instead of saying "You're wrong" (with variations on that), say "I can see where you're coming from, but....."
Remember nothing is fact at the moment, even the Prima "Official" Guide to CC disagrees with the CC itself on some issues.

I type quickly, and think quicker than I can type. Long posts aren't really a problem for me.

I'm not flaming, especially since I held back on some of his remarks that really agitated me. I'm in a sour mood so that's not particularly helping the issue, but I've tried that approach before. It doesn't work on some people. I do understand were he's coming from, however he goes to far in his opinions and is quite frankly, in my opinion, down right insulting with his views. They aren't directed insults though, to me, they come off as being Holier-than-Thou and as an attempt to look down on anyone who has a different opinion. It is why I over-exaggerated my point to the hyper-positive (which is something difficult for me to do normally, as I am fairly pessimistic).

The Prima guide is wrong, because it's likely based on an older build. There is a chance it's based on a build we don't have however that's not incredibly likely. The odd thing is I remember a time when we were discussing whether a Guide would even be possible with Spore considering the size and depth of it. It's an issue that's come up several times, but still a guide for Spore would be particularly stupid. Especially considering the current guide's format, and the way it limits people thinking. It encourages the point of view that you can't have social predators, or powerful herbivores by dividing creatures into various categories. The guide itself says something to the effect of "If you want to make a herbivore, it's best to use social parts". I'm paraphrasing, as I don't have the file up currently, but there are several statements that are misleading or biased, let alone down right wrong.
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Offline sporeticus

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2008, 09:23:47 am »
-snip-
It's an issue that's come up several times, but still a guide for Spore would be particularly stupid. Especially considering the current guide's format, and the way it limits people thinking. It encourages the point of view that you can't have social predators, or powerful herbivores by dividing creatures into various categories. The guide itself says something to the effect of "If you want to make a herbivore, it's best to use social parts". I'm paraphrasing, as I don't have the file up currently, but there are several statements that are misleading or biased, let alone down right wrong.

That's pretty much the issue with any guide for any game on the market. Guides, to me, have this "here I'll hold your hand and lead the way" kind of thing about them. Guides encourage linear play along their lines, and really do discourage creative thinking.
An example is the GTA4 guide. It tells you how to do things, yet there are a surprising number of ways of completing any mission, even one's that would seem silly at first.
This game encourages creativity. Bringing out a guide is a complete contradiction to this!
« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 10:37:43 am by sporeticus »

Offline The Time Traveller

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2008, 09:41:51 am »
I bet that's why they added the "Get-to-the-center-of-the-galaxy" thing.  EA was getting a lot of money from the guide company, and they said "WTF?  This game doesn't have an ending!  Once we say how to get to space, there's nothing to say!"
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Offline sporeticus

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2008, 10:38:41 am »
I bet that's why they added the "Get-to-the-center-of-the-galaxy" thing.  EA was getting a lot of money from the guide company, and they said "WTF?  This game doesn't have an ending!  Once we say how to get to space, there's nothing to say!"

Hehe, and the last page of the official guide says "Errrm....."

Offline Logan Felipe

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2008, 10:54:23 am »
I bet that's why they added the "Get-to-the-center-of-the-galaxy" thing.  EA was getting a lot of money from the guide company, and they said "WTF?  This game doesn't have an ending!  Once we say how to get to space, there's nothing to say!"

SPORE was supposed to be a single player MMORPG, in a way.

For example, in Galaxies, there is no ending either. You just wander around improving your character, and completing quests now and then.

They tried that approach earlier, but I think EA changed their direction a bit.

And quite frankly, "get to the center of the galaxy" (meet will wright? :P) seem the most stupid goal I've heard of.
If spore has an ending, it will suck. Lets hope you can go to the center or the most outer expanses and not have a window come up saying "hooray! You won! Now we're going to play the credits and return you to the main menu!"  >:(
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Offline pathegnome

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2008, 10:56:12 am »
Its hard to get upset by an argument on these forums, because most people have a cute creature as their avatar.  aww the pink 3 legged guy is mad at the purple guy with 2 heads, how cute.

Offline Spore-addict

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2008, 10:59:42 am »
Okay, this is pointless. i could counter all the arguments shown but it is just waste of time for both of us.

Am a bit cranky at the moment.

5 weeks or so. Then we will know it all. EA in my case has 5 weeks to earn my 60 dollars, if they dont fix my cc problem with the registration...I save the money and get the game otherwise. simple as that.

Incredible that you in 2008 can have a so bad system...
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See you out there, feel free to comment my creatures.

Offline Veraal

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2008, 11:11:27 am »
I'm proud to be a part of this community because, unlike most forums, flaming is kept to a minimum,

you must be thinking of something else  ::)

my say in this is that i think that let's say, an elephant shaped creature with wings should be slower aerodynamically than an eagle like creature.

what if i blasted an elephant creature from the sky and it fell crashing towards a herd of goat like creatures, would there be a crater? would the ground be malformed at all? would the goats just play a death animation, or would their bodies actually crush realistically?

Offline GCool

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2008, 11:16:13 am »
Idunno.

I think that if there is a size-matters approach, then it should be a very small multiplier.
For example, the difference between the stat levels of the smallest creatue possible (2 spine segments, skinny and a small head) and the largest (full spine, fully plumped and a fully-sized head) should only be about 0.75, maybe 1.5 max.

That way, could still beat in a fight, but would have difficulty (ignoring the armour difference and the fact that Ankylotricerarex has more attacks and armour)


A size 'meter' could then be incorperated into the editor, and automatically changing the stats of items before you even put them on so you know what you're doing.

Also, it'd be interesting to have some sort of mechanic whereby your stats directly influence each other, meaning that you could never 'max out' a creature in more than 2 departments - if you choose higher level parts then it's more obvious you want that skill, or if you put a load of parts with the same stat-modification then that stat would come out on top over all.

So the Ankylotricerarex would end up having, say, his armour and slash stats weakend slightly in favour of his biting and charging... However, say I went for full charging, full sprint, full speed and full slash on my Corvala; that'd still be possible, because 'charge', 'sprint' and 'speed' are all directly linked.
A further little bit of the editor could allow you to correct any mistakes made by the computer as to which stats you want to focus on, though, because you may put a load of deatils on a creature without wanting it's stats to be focused on 'charm', like my Hevox or Evercreen...

Offline Logan Felipe

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2008, 11:23:57 am »
I think there was some Jurassic Park spinoff toy line that had a creature like your Ankylotricerarex... My mom made me a costume of it for haloween many years ago...

They should have size multipliers like Impossible creatures did.
plus, if there were big carnivores, there could be less of that species spawned, and it could be slow to compensate.

One thing; is there a size meter to compare creatures with?
I want to make sure my Apatosaurus is bigger than my Troodon (it'd be weird if it was shorter...)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 06:57:48 pm by Logan Felipe »
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I blame what I call the Scopes Law (When discussing evolution in the presence of a creationist, the discussion always becomes a religious debate).

Offline vbGamer

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Re: Does size not matter?
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2008, 05:41:39 pm »
From what I can tell, a 6 inch mouse with 40 health and say.....10 attack, could fight against a 6 foot bruiser with 40 health and 10 attack, and it would be an even match. Does size not count for anything? Maybe use a mathematical function using the size of the metaballs used in the limbs to calculate health and strength etc....

It seems silly that it doesn't really matter how big my creature is, as a tiny creature could be kitted out to win. A bear that looks to weigh a tonne could lose to a little yappy dog, for example.

EDIT: Yes I have searched, and there are posts discussing the size your creatures can be, but non relating to whether size has an effect on combat performance or health.

To put it simply, a black mamba could kill an elephant. There's also the Box Jellyfish, with the most deadly venom in the animal kingdom. Small little critters pack quite a punch.

But, that's venom, not a bite (or a stomp). That same elephant could easily squash an unsuspecting Black Mamba.

Offline DarthBlakley

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2008, 11:39:29 pm »
I am totally, completely, 100% with DDay on this one.

And has anyone considered the idea that your size will affect gameplay in a very simple way?

Small creature fights big creature.

Big creature is BIGGER.

This means the big creature might possibly have a MUCH longer reach than the small creature.

Where as the small creature needs to run 15 feet to punch the big creature, the big creature is already whomping on the small creature for that entire 15 feet.

You dig?

Offline Markonite2

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2008, 02:12:08 am »
Okay, now to address my concern with limbs and reach.

I don't think limb length will matter either.
Make your limbs as long as you want.
It doesn't change the stats.
I'm pretty sure if your creature encounters a fruit in a tall tree (assuming height is a factor in the game)
its grasping limbs will stretch past their regular length and pluck it.
If you dissagree, watch a short creature perform the 'sprint' action.
On my smaller creatures the limbs extend to three or four times their regular length.

Hopefully I'm wrong but if the game is consistent, reach will not be a factor.
Even in fights, I'm pretty sure fighting will perform in a similar way to WoW:

The two creatures will get close in proximity.
Both will attack the air in front of them.
Large flashy effects will ensue.
Other creature will react (play its "I'm hit!" movement)
Maybe even red and blue splotches with white numbers in the middle will float up.  ;)
When one creatures health is reduced to zero, it will fall over and slowly fade.
A number of DNA points will float out of it (+200 or something like that)

Hopefully it will be a little more dense than this, but I'm only going on intuition. (not always right) :-[
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Offline DaMuncha

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2008, 02:37:08 am »
I dont think the combat will be to complicated, just like what Mark says.

Offline DarthBlakley

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Re: Why doesn't size affect stats such as speed and health?
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2008, 02:55:02 am »
Okay, now to address my concern with limbs and reach.

I don't think limb length will matter either.
Make your limbs as long as you want.
It doesn't change the stats.
I'm pretty sure if your creature encounters a fruit in a tall tree (assuming height is a factor in the game)
its grasping limbs will stretch past their regular length and pluck it.
If you dissagree, watch a short creature perform the 'sprint' action.
On my smaller creatures the limbs extend to three or four times their regular length.

Hopefully I'm wrong but if the game is consistent, reach will not be a factor.
Even in fights, I'm pretty sure fighting will perform in a similar way to WoW:

The two creatures will get close in proximity.
Both will attack the air in front of them.
Large flashy effects will ensue.
Other creature will react (play its "I'm hit!" movement)
Maybe even red and blue splotches with white numbers in the middle will float up.  ;)
When one creatures health is reduced to zero, it will fall over and slowly fade.
A number of DNA points will float out of it (+200 or something like that)

Hopefully it will be a little more dense than this, but I'm only going on intuition. (not always right) :-[

Well, if you watch the GDC 2005 video, when the willosaur first comes to land and attacks the little hopper, he has to get within reach of the little guy in order to hit him with his stinger/tail. Many times he swings but as he is not close enough he doesn't hit the creature. Will even comments on this.

Sure, changing limb length doesn't change your stats. Why should it? This is not evidence that reach could not be beneficial, as can be shown in the above GDC video.

Now, this was from 3 years ago, so I'm not saying its still going to be this way, but I've seen no examples which indicate that it has changed from this.

Will has often talked about how the creature phase is FPS-like. He never mentions WoW-like.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 02:58:09 am by DarthBlakley »