Author Topic: Determinism Vs. Freewill  (Read 14300 times)

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Offline 7 who ate 9

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Determinism Vs. Freewill
« on: April 24, 2008, 05:12:57 pm »
The title pretty much speaks for its self, and I don't really know how to start a discussion.

Do you believe that you have control over your choices? Or do you believe that your choices are caused because of the world around you? What about Quantum Mechanics?

I'll post my thoughts once more people post in this thread.


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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 05:16:49 pm »
Well, the universe is either deterministic or probabilistic, and since I don't believe in the supernatural that basically leaves me with the conclusion that free will is an illusion. But its a much better illusion than that stupid vase.  ;)
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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 05:31:51 pm »
I believe in free will.
Things that we do aren't predetermined so anything could happen with a decision.
There are different forms of it but in general most higher mammals use free will in many undetermined ways making them unique and unpredictable. Certain things we have less f no control at all within our own minds though (form of a black out or hallucinations).


Like KS said either deterministic or probabilistic, I say probabilistic.
Anything can happen, fate is not predetermined; anything is possible even the impossible.
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2008, 05:34:56 pm »
Thats not what probabilistic means.

Probabilistic means everything is basically decided by a 'roll of the dice', and that for a given quantum level event theres a finite number of different outcomes which have a different probability of occurring.

So even if the universe is probabilistic we still wouldn't have free will. You don't have any control over a six-sided die after you've thrown it, and there certainly no way you can roll a 7 ;)
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Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2008, 05:45:46 pm »
The thing is, if you through a dice, isn't where it is going to land predetermined? If you through a dice, the speed of which you throw it, air density, mass, weight, and all of the other billions of variables determine where it is going to land. I don't seam to understand the theory of freewill, or of randomness. How can something just happen, for no reason at all? Even The M theory (the new version of Quantum Mechanics) says that things aren't random, the movement of the membranes in the 11 dimensions determines how the strings are going to vibrate. So, even if things seam random to us, if we were to look at all the 11 dimensions it wouldn't be as random.
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2008, 05:50:10 pm »
Well, either way it means we have no free will, so you might as well just enjoy the ride.
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Offline Andrew Ryan

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2008, 05:59:03 pm »
Well, either way it means we have no free will, so you might as well just enjoy the ride.

Not so fast Krakow... I'm going to fight that ride to the bitter end. I demand my free will or else!  >:(
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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2008, 06:05:13 pm »
Thats not what probabilistic means.

Probabilistic means everything is basically decided by a 'roll of the dice', and that for a given quantum level event theres a finite number of different outcomes which have a different probability of occurring.

So even if the universe is probabilistic we still wouldn't have free will. You don't have any control over a six-sided die after you've thrown it, and there certainly no way you can roll a 7 ;)

Oh wait I got the concept in reverse.
Damn my incompetence ;D.
Thanks for the correction KS ;).
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Offline Neoadept

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2008, 06:22:13 pm »
Determinism all the way.  Some people think that's a depressing outlook, but I think of it like a good book.  The ending is determined even before you pick it up, but it's still a hell of a ride.  My analogy kind of falls through after you start thinking of the writer, unless it's probabilistic in which case infinite monkeys works quite well.

Oh, and M (string) theory doesn't hold enough water to sustain a goldfish.
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Offline Kcronos

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2008, 06:27:57 pm »
How it works is that there are infinite possible futures, all of which are possible, and all of which exist.

Your "free will" is determined by the neural net you call your soul or conciousness, or whatever, and it makes decisions based on past experiences.  The universes within which you make a choice that most fits with your current personality and past experiences are more numerous, but the other universes wherein you did not make that choice exist as well.

Therefore, free will is based on chance, and determinalism is impossible.  If a supernatural being influenced infinite universes, then another infinite would exist where he did not.
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Offline Neoadept

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2008, 06:55:36 pm »
Isn't that just determinism, since all possible universes already exist and cannot be changed?  The whole "choose your universe" thing doesn't work since, for those other universes to exist, you would have to "choose" them as well.
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Offline 762

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2008, 07:03:03 pm »
I say deterministic. All of the events that will ever happen in this universe have already been determined billions of years ago. My small decision to drink a glass of orange juice this morning was determined by my mood, which was determined by events in the past, the outcomes and processes of which were determined by events before them. That's my basic philosophy of free will. I can choose what I want, but what I will choose has already been decided.

I take determinism over a God deciding all that crap any day. At least this way it's unpredictable (since we can never have, and know how to use, ALL the data.)

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Offline Serdun

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2008, 07:37:59 pm »
Does it really matter? As long as it seems like we control our own destiny, why not act as if we do?

e: spelling
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 07:44:01 pm by Serdun »
Yes. Of course.

Offline Kcronos

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2008, 07:42:26 pm »
Isn't that just determinism, since all possible universes already exist and cannot be changed?  The whole "choose your universe" thing doesn't work since, for those other universes to exist, you would have to "choose" them as well.

The key phrase there is all possible universes.  If there are infinite paths, there are infinite choices.  And you get to make all of them at once.

Infinite.  INFINITE!
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Offline Brandonazz

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2008, 07:43:20 pm »
That's why we have the illusion of free will. It makes us all so happy-go-lucky.

I'm quite sure that we don't have free will as most people perceive it.

Under the same exact conditions at the same moment in any number of universes, I will make the same decision.

Quantum physics could change minutiae is my brain chemistry that might result in a different, minor decision much later, but that's irrelevant.