Author Topic: Determinism Vs. Freewill  (Read 14425 times)

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Offline B.A.S.

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2008, 11:43:38 am »
Im not so sure, the points in Determinism are very strong but Im curious. Whats to stop me from being in a GREAT mood and then suddenly I get the thought, "I wonder what would happen if I attacked this man walking down the street". Obviously im in a great mood and normal people dont do that but thats where I think freewill comes into play. Anything can happen at anytime.

The logic in this falls down because you're assuming that since you could do something out of the ordinary, and you don't, that this is because of free will.

The reason you thought about it in the first place was determined by the chemical and physical makeup of your brain at the time. The reason you decided not to was determined by the chemical and physical makeup of your brain at the time. At no time is "normality" factored in anywhere. It's just a giant rube goldberg machine going through the paces.

Yeh that does make alot of sense. I guess im just not really a beliver in Destiny, although I can see how everything is predetermined in a way through non spiritual ways. ;)
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2008, 06:39:20 am »
I've always used Free Will vs. Determinism as an argument for the existence of the soul, in some form or another. If we are simply biological computers, then our actions are determined from the moment the Big Bang occurred. We know that there is no such thing as random chance, just mathematical odds that all become 1:1 when you know all the factors, which we don't typically, so inevitably the formation of cells, the movement of chemicals, all these things have been predetermined by anyone who can see and understand all the factors. Ergo, we may have the illusion of free will, but do not have free will itself.

If we have free will, however, and are more than biological computers, the two must be intrinsically linked.

I state soul as a lack of a better word, for the record. The "ghost", the Deus Ex Machina, the intrinsic being within us all is what I refer to. Not necessarily something that survives death, that's a personal belief, but merely something beyond it.

I personally believe in Free will, but I do not make an assumption. After all, if I am wrong it makes little difference. The end result would be the same as I would have the illusion of Free Will but no actual will to speak of.
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Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2008, 09:13:40 am »
Im not so sure, the points in Determinism are very strong but Im curious. Whats to stop me from being in a GREAT mood and then suddenly I get the thought, "I wonder what would happen if I attacked this man walking down the street". Obviously im in a great mood and normal people dont do that but thats where I think freewill comes into play. Anything can happen at anytime.

The logic in this falls down because you're assuming that since you could do something out of the ordinary, and you don't, that this is because of free will.

The reason you thought about it in the first place was determined by the chemical and physical makeup of your brain at the time. The reason you decided not to was determined by the chemical and physical makeup of your brain at the time. At no time is "normality" factored in anywhere. It's just a giant rube goldberg machine going through the paces.

Yeh that does make alot of sense. I guess im just not really a beliver in Destiny, although I can see how everything is predetermined in a way through non spiritual ways. ;)

Exactly. When I think of destiny I think of fairies and magic and "fates" where some hero is destined to do something. I don't believe in this, but that isn't what destiny is, just what fairy tales make it sound like.

Also, to those of you that say it doesn't matter, the story of how this argument got brought up between me and my friends might be a little bit interesting. We were arguing about gay people, and a lot of my friends seem to dis-like them. The argument was whether or not gay people chose to be gay. Crap, i need to go. Edit this post later.

EDIT:

Any way, i was saying if gays could chose to be gay, you could have more of an excuse for being against gay (i am not against gays). But if they can't, you should just try to help them because it is not their fault. It is the same with every thing, just place gay with "murder" or a type of mental disorder.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 09:12:22 pm by 7 who ate 9 »
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Offline Axelgear

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2008, 09:15:58 am »
What does whether they choose to be gay or not have to do with liking them or not? People with Downs Syndrome don't choose to have it, it doesn't make their behaviour any less annoying.
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Offline Uroboros

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2008, 09:36:56 am »
The simple test about whether you can choose to be sexually attracted to the same gender, and not the opposite one, is to have them try it for themselves. Simple test. Just try to 'choose' to be genuinely sexually attracted to only the same gender for 24 hours then 'choose' to go back to only being attracted to the opposite sex. :P

Offline Gorman Conall

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2008, 11:27:03 am »
I'm not arguing anything however here is something to think about.

If you were born gay then the ones who would know this without a doubt would be the gays correct?.

If the gays know without a doubt that they were born gay and you can't choose ether way then why the hell do they insist on trying to convert every single straight person they think is attractive gay when they should no that theres no choice involved?.

And if you say that gay people do not do that then i suggest you go and meet some.

I believe in freewill and i believe the problem lies when people stop treating us like living breathing  people and only start paying attention to numbers and act as though we are computers. Not just with this issue but with many. All they ever see is ones and zeros.

Just my opinion nothing more.




Offline /lurk

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2008, 11:32:08 am »
GC, do you really get that many gay people hitting on you? I think you might be getting paranoid.
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2008, 11:33:54 am »
If the gays know without a doubt that they were born gay and you can't choose ether way then why the hell do they insist on trying to convert every single straight person they think is attractive gay when they should no that theres no choice involved?.

And if you say that gay people do not do that then i suggest you go and meet some.
None of the gays I know act like that.

Perhaps you shouldn't form an opinion based on the behavior of a handful of people you've encountered.

Anyway, this has precisely nothing to do with the topic of determinism or free will so I suggest we drop the subject or move it to another thread.

Sam is basically right, he's just cranky.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2008, 03:47:25 pm »
Well, in a way it does. Are our preferences, our desires, based on biological forces or do we choose them?
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Offline Doctor Z

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2008, 06:04:09 pm »
You know, it's REALLY hard to concentrate on what you're saying when you see that... THING in your avatar staring you in the face, Chi.

Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2008, 06:19:02 pm »
Wow this thread turned out different than I thought.
Where have I been for 2 days?
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2008, 06:37:35 pm »
Is anyone sure that even in a mechanistic universe, the grand unified theory of everything wouldn't allow emergent properties that are not in and of themselves ruled by the grand unified theory of everything?  ;D

Reasonably. Emergent properties may be interesting, and perhaps even unexpected or surprising when viewed from a macroscopic narrative perspective, but they themselves are still governed by the underlying rules of the system. A good example is Conway's Game of Life. The system is Turing complete, and produces very surprising behaviour, but is ultimately still governed by those very simple initial rules.

Offline Axelgear

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2008, 06:40:39 pm »
Free Will is the ability to determine one's own decisions without having them preselected by factors that will yield to an inevitable result. That is, the influences do not make the decisions for you.
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Offline Ultramarine

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2008, 06:43:14 pm »
That's what I've always thought it was (than again I only remember that from the Sims ::))
Seemed right at the time.
Kid: Oh wow I'm being deflowered by a grown woman!
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EDIT: That's where it becomes rape if you were wondering.

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Offline The Time Traveller

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2008, 06:46:09 pm »
None of the gays I know act like that.
You actually know more than one gay person?  I thought they were a gigantically tiny minority.  I haven't met any, ane neither has anyone I know.
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