Author Topic: Determinism Vs. Freewill  (Read 14426 times)

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Offline Kcronos

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2008, 07:46:35 pm »
The point I'm trying to make is that although everything is based on statistics and probability, the thing we percieve as our mind is also based on exactly that, and thus we do have free will.  Just not in the vague warm and fuzzy sense of the word.

Free Will isn't Maths.  Maths is Free Will...
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Offline Neoadept

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2008, 07:55:35 pm »
The key phrase there is all possible universes.  If there are infinite paths, there are infinite choices.  And you get to make all of them at once.

Infinite.  INFINITE!

But if you make them all at once, how is there a choice?  It's like picking the color on the first cars, "you can have any color you want as long as it's brown."

The point I'm trying to make is that although everything is based on statistics and probability, the thing we percieve as our mind is also based on exactly that, and thus we do have free will.  Just not in the vague warm and fuzzy sense of the word.

Free Will isn't Maths.  Maths is Free Will...

That's what I'm not getting about your idea, how is something random anything like free will?  It's not exactly determinism, but there's still no actual choice involved.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2008, 02:01:52 am »
It's difficult to argue against a deterministic universe, but I'm happy to believe that illusory free will is no worse than the real thing.

Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2008, 07:33:48 am »
Its weird, I agree with every thing you guys are saying but the thing I am doubting is the fact that you guys are all strangers on the internet. Me and my friends (actually, just me) are debating about freewill, and most of them have ever even heard of quantum physics or determinism. I trust you guys more then a couple of 13 year olds, because you are the majority and more educated. But there, in the real world, I feel like I am the only atheist who has ever even thought about this stuff. How do you convince people like that? Or rather, not convince, but just explain your ideas in a way they'll understand? To them I'm the dumb one that every one teams up on...
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Offline blitzonator

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2008, 08:34:32 am »
By bothering to post, I have created a new timeline, by reading, you have created another. We could have done differently but now we are facing the result of our actions. It WILL happen and YOU can't stop the new dimension from forming. I go for determinism on a dimensional scale and free will on a timeline.

Offline Daxx

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2008, 08:40:48 am »
Arguments on free will usually rely on some sort of soul, because the brain is nothing much more than a very complicated computer bound by the physical (deterministic) laws of the universe. Most of its properties (including self-awareness) are nothing more than emergent phenomena which have arisen from the extremely complicated way the brain is put together.

If the brain is governed by deterministic laws, then it must itself be deterministic; i.e. it receives some input, processes that through an extremely complex system based on present state and determined reactions, and gives an output. There is no room for choice - that is, if you take the brain apart you can't find any particular thing that is making a choice.

That's the fundamental argument for suggesting that we are devoid of truly free will. Unless someone brings up the concept of a immaterial soul, which is an entirely different argument, then there's little wiggle room for suggesting that our choices are anything but deterministic outcomes of the universe just doing its thing - of course you'd be surprised how many people misunderstand the concept of determinism, or who simply aren't able to comprehend that they are basically just a complicated machine.

EDIT: Do keep thinking about this, 7. I find it interesting as well.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 08:44:17 am by Daxx »

Offline SmileyMan

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2008, 10:08:14 am »
I believe in some sort of determinism as a result of my belief in the M-theory. There's an infinite amount of Universes, and every single one has its own timeline; infinite amount of timelines. There's no free will because everything in our timeline has already been determined. I might look at a sign as I walk down the street, while in another Universe I'll instead look down on my shoes. There's no place for free will in such a world.

Offline Werechicken

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2008, 02:27:33 pm »
As I always consider it:

Even if the destinations determined the route you take, and what you do on the way there, is up to you.
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Offline B.A.S.

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2008, 04:12:12 pm »
Im not so sure, the points in Determinism are very strong but Im curious. Whats to stop me from being in a GREAT mood and then suddenly I get the thought, "I wonder what would happen if I attacked this man walking down the street". Obviously im in a great mood and normal people dont do that but thats where I think freewill comes into play. Anything can happen at anytime.
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Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2008, 09:36:30 pm »
The thing is, things like that don't happen. You aren't in a good mood and then just decide to kill someone.
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Offline B.A.S.

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2008, 10:09:19 pm »
I think you would be surprised. Yes there are people like that out there...
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Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2008, 10:13:20 pm »
People like that have mental problems of some kind, which is still a reason. You can't chose to be insane.
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Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2008, 03:20:18 am »
Im not so sure, the points in Determinism are very strong but Im curious. Whats to stop me from being in a GREAT mood and then suddenly I get the thought, "I wonder what would happen if I attacked this man walking down the street". Obviously im in a great mood and normal people dont do that but thats where I think freewill comes into play. Anything can happen at anytime.

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Offline Daxx

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2008, 03:37:21 am »
Im not so sure, the points in Determinism are very strong but Im curious. Whats to stop me from being in a GREAT mood and then suddenly I get the thought, "I wonder what would happen if I attacked this man walking down the street". Obviously im in a great mood and normal people dont do that but thats where I think freewill comes into play. Anything can happen at anytime.

The logic in this falls down because you're assuming that since you could do something out of the ordinary, and you don't, that this is because of free will.

The reason you thought about it in the first place was determined by the chemical and physical makeup of your brain at the time. The reason you decided not to was determined by the chemical and physical makeup of your brain at the time. At no time is "normality" factored in anywhere. It's just a giant rube goldberg machine going through the paces.

Offline Yokto

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Re: Determinism Vs. Freewill
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2008, 09:06:37 am »
It does not matter if one have free will or not.
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