Author Topic: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions  (Read 5346 times)

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Offline 7 who ate 9

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Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« on: January 26, 2008, 11:33:00 am »
They hurt my head.

I don't like writing long unnecessary paragraphs, so I'll just get straight my point, I don't get probability. How can nothing in our universe be predicable? I understand that to us 3 dimensional characters the small quantum particles seam random, but if we built some type of amazingly advanced 11 dimensional computer wouldn't it be able to predict the motion of subatomic particles?  I think time is straight line, I know that might not be right but I can't see how else it could be. The site http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php explains it, but it says that because of our free will and probability we create different time lines. But how can we have free will? Our minds are just chemicals and electricity, and those things have definite actions. I know I am wrong, but I don't understand how. If a ball is rolling off of a cliff and about to fall, it will fall. There is no probability.

Then again, I suppose at a quantum level there could be small probability, like the motions of one particle. And then that could effect our motions, and cause a diverting time line. So, if that is what quantum mechanics is trying to explain, then I understand it. I just don't think we have free will, and I don't think things other then small particles have probability.


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Offline stuck

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2008, 12:00:21 pm »
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How can nothing in our universe be predictable?
Philosophy: Because that would destroy the concept of free will.

QM: Particles are ascribed wavefunctions. The absolute value of the wavefunction squared gives the probability that a particle will be at that certain point. Experimentally, this works out to give values that correspond to charge. Schrodinger originally thought that the wavefunction represented charge density, but the probability interpretation gives more accurate explanations.

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but if we built some type of amazingly advanced 11 dimensional computer wouldn't it be able to predict the motion of subatomic particles?
No, not by our current understanding of quantum mechanics.

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and those things have definite actions
Definite random actions. The realm of quantum mechanics likely plays a large role in the way our brain processes information.

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If a ball is rolling off of a cliff and about to fall, it will fall. There is no probability.
That's because its wavefunction is so compact and continuously collapses so that we may say the probability of it being in point a is 1.

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The site http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php explains it, but it says that because of our free will and probability we create different time lines.
This seems like an unhealthy mixture of the Everretan (Many Worlds) and Copenhagen interpretations. The math between the two is hard to reconcile. Either each different choice a wavefunction has creates a new timeline and therefore a new universe (Many Worlds), or an observer's measurement realizes which state the wavefunction took (Copenhagen).



Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2008, 12:04:54 pm »
 These two site combined with the above site kind of explain it to me, I don't believe with any of the sites completely, but combined i understand it in my own way, I just got an epiphany:

http://www.gort.net/Sermons%20and%20Bible%20studies/Ten%20D%20Feb.htm
http://www.fractalicawakening.com/11dims.htm


What I'm trying to get at is, even random is definite. Of coarse it isn't definite in the 4th dimension, but it is definite in some very very very complex way.
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Offline Brandonazz

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2008, 04:18:39 pm »
I don't believe we have "free will" as you put it; it's an illusion. If we do something, it's because our brain has computed in such a way that it is done. The decision may be conscious or otherwise, but it, under the same circumstances, would always be the same.

This doesn't mean that you can't change. If someone encourages you to stop smoking or work harder in school, you may think that you have the free will to change and do these things, but your mind has figured out that doing so has benefits greater than not.

Your mind is also programmed to create the "free will" illusion. You can consciously chose to do something you normally wouldn't in order to "prove" to yourself that you have free will, but your mind is allowing this to occur.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 04:22:20 pm by Brandonazz »

Offline Doctor Z

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2008, 04:33:29 pm »
Our mind is the Machines in the Matrix then?

Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2008, 07:21:13 pm »
I don't believe we have "free will" as you put it; it's an illusion. If we do something, it's because our brain has computed in such a way that it is done. The decision may be conscious or otherwise, but it, under the same circumstances, would always be the same.

This doesn't mean that you can't change. If someone encourages you to stop smoking or work harder in school, you may think that you have the free will to change and do these things, but your mind has figured out that doing so has benefits greater than not.

Your mind is also programmed to create the "free will" illusion. You can consciously chose to do something you normally wouldn't in order to "prove" to yourself that you have free will, but your mind is allowing this to occur.

That is exactly what I mean, its not like our minds are completely random

I understand that to us 3 dimensional characters the small quantum particles seam random, but if we built some type of amazingly advanced 11 dimensional computer wouldn't it be able to predict the motion of subatomic particles? 

The hypothesized existence of dimensions other than space and time is just a tool to solve problems, not an accessible physical reality like in science fiction.  If there were more physical dimensions, then every computer already has those dimensions, and is just not utilizing them effectively.
What I am talking about is purely hypothetical. I know there can be no computer, but if there was some type of all-knowing thing, it would be able to predict everything.


Our minds are just chemicals and electricity, and those things have definite actions.

This mechanistic view of the human brain is not shared by all.
There are those who consider a brain more of a receiver than a computer.
[/quote]
I don't understand that, isn't our mind both? Like a computer that receives? I do agree that our "computer" can be altered by small, quantum things. Like you said, the chaos theroy and that quote "if a butterfly flaps its wing on one side of the world..." is a great example of this. Like I said earlier, if that is what quantum mechanics is all about, tell me.

I just don't think we have free will

Without free will, I have no choice but to disagree with you.  ;D
And you don't. Your choice (or i should say, current choice) is based of off your mind.
I don't think things other then small particles have probability.

There are macroscopic phenomena that inherit unpredictability from initial quantum uncertainty... see Chaos Theory for a good example of this.


I know very well of the chaos theroy, but I believe that to is a straight line of cause and effect, just a more complex one.
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Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2008, 08:54:51 pm »
I do not believe in souls, so I do not agree with that completely. And I did not mean to bring up religion, i am not religious. I do not understand how there is no way to certain of something. I don't think us humans could ever be 100% certain on anything, but there must be certainy in the universe for it to make sense. If we truly are just vibrating strings (i agree we are, I believe in the M-theroy) then those strings must have some type of pattern, even if it makes no sense to use. The universe is like a giant math problem, and there are no ifs in math.
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Mary Poppins was hot. Full of golden ratio goodness. I'd be the derivative of her function any day of the week.
We'll hold that against you until you leave these forums you know :P

Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2008, 10:57:01 pm »
Perhaps a soul is like that 11 dimensional computer you were talking about.

Either your definition of soul is different then mine or you didn't understand what I meant by that computer.

How would you explain quatum mechanics? I want to see if the way im thinking of it is like the way other people think of it. (not directed just at masterchitoes)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 10:58:36 pm by 7 who ate 9 »
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Offline stuck

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2008, 09:31:18 am »
I don't believe we have "free will" as you put it; it's an illusion. If we do something, it's because our brain has computed in such a way that it is done. The decision may be conscious or otherwise, but it, under the same circumstances, would always be the same.

This isn't necessarily true. Suppose we have a hypothetical particle a in a superposition of states and measure its state. After its wavefunction collapses, we let it spread out again so that it is essentially the same as before (Schrodinger equation is time-independent). If we measure its state again, the recorded value might be different than before. So, returning to our brain, we can't predict with certainty whether or not we will react one way or another. Depending on how much quantum mechanical phenomena matter in the mind, we see that the our thought processes may indeed differ from one identical situation to another.

Now let's look at this from the many worlds interpretation. In one timeline, the particle takes path a and the other path b. If this action is needed in computing our decision, then one of us lives in world A and the other in world B. Clearly what we actually end up doing is different in the different scenarios.

Offline Neoadept

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2008, 09:35:02 am »
Yes, but in that scenario the universe is probabilistic, which still disallows free will.
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Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2008, 09:45:43 am »

Now let's look at this from the many worlds interpretation. In one timeline, the particle takes path a and the other path b. If this action is needed in computing our decision, then one of us lives in world A and the other in world B. Clearly what we actually end up doing is different in the different scenarios.


This is what I agree with.
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Offline Quantum Burrito

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2008, 10:29:25 am »
Guys, free will.

If it is determined by what has happened to us, then it is not free will, as there is no choice.

If it is determined by random variance, then it is not free will, as randomness is not choice.

Define 'free will'.
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Offline stuck

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2008, 03:25:26 pm »
The illusion of free will is almost as important as free will itself. Since we can't exactly predict reactions to stimuli because of quantum mechanics, it may just as well be cosidered free will. To truly have free will, you'd need a mind not of this universe. By definition, a mind not of this universe can't really interact with it, so we can discount that possibility. What we do have instead is randomness and unpredictability. If we do not know what action a being will take, isn't that the same situation as free will? Like Quantum Burrito said, define free will.

Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2008, 05:52:30 pm »

To truly have free will, you'd need a mind not of this universe.

Why?  How can you make this claim without defining free will, and likewise delineating the mind and the universe.

By definition, a mind not of this universe can't really interact with it, so we can discount that possibility.

By what definition?  That is one blazing string of assumptions.


What I think he means by free will is something that is chosen by our choice, not connected to the universe at all. I think this is impossible.

Stuck, thank you, you're explaining a lot to me.
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Offline stuck

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Re: Quantum Mechanics and 11 demensions
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2008, 07:01:53 pm »
To truly have free will, you'd need a mind not of this universe.

Why?  How can you make this claim without defining free will, and likewise delineating the mind and the universe.

By definition, a mind not of this universe can't really interact with it, so we can discount that possibility.

By what definition?  That is one blazing string of assumptions.

[edit]
Unless someone is up on the field of complexity and emergent properties, the whole free will thing seems like another forum MacGuffin.

A mind not of this universe is not bound by the laws of this universe. So I'll try to define what free will is. Free will is having your own choice in a matter, one which is not predictable because of physical properties but rather by something else. This something else would be a metaphysical mind. Like you said, the brain may function as a reciever and all the decision making is made somewhere else. This would constitute free will because it is not calculable and some entity makes a choice. By having a mind of this universe, then the decision making must happen within our known physical laws, and our known physical laws are not pushed by anyone's noodly appendages. A decision may be random, but we have only the illusion of control over it.

Imagine you have an object not of this universe. If it were somehow able to communicate to this universe, would it then be influenced by our laws? There must be some link between the two worlds, so what properties would this link have? Which laws would it obey? Would it be a mixture of the two? Would the laws superimpose on one another, and can calculations made in one influence the other? On second thought, maybe they can link. For example, take a black hole. It is a singularity in space-time and so you may argue to some extent that it is not truely of this universe, or at least the stuff inside it isn't. However, it can communicate with this world via Hawkings radiation. Now, the question is, if we send information in, will we get information out? Or will it be incoherent? I'm not entirely sure what the consensus is at the moment, but I suppose if we can get real computations made by a black hole this type of link may exist. Now we stumble upon the much larger question, if different universes may link, what else is linked up and influencing our universe?