Poll

Which are you?

I am an evolutionist (umbrella term)
205 (68.3%)
I am a creationist (umbrella term)
35 (11.7%)
other (both?  none?)
60 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 295

Author Topic: Evolution yes/no  (Read 407928 times)

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Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1290 on: March 08, 2008, 05:02:30 pm »
I find it a bit difficult to fully understand how something as complex as an eye could evolve, but I do get the general idea of evolution.

light sensitive cells devoloped  by chance first, and it goes on from their. even worms have this; the basic form of sight. infact, some cases have reported light sesitive cells on the human toung.


I honestly just can't understand how evolution is hard to grasp.

I just can't do it.

because of this:

Quote
the trouble with most people is they think with their hopes or fears of wishes rather than with their minds

and this:

Quote
but reason has no power against feeling, and feelin older than history is no light matter

and this is because:

Quote
feeling are not supposed to be logical. dangerous is the man who has rationalized his emotions


now you have a better grasp on my bottomless store of quotes on love, life, meaning and logic

The thing is, since we are animals, aren't feelings more important then knowledge? I don't want that to be true, but if we need our feelings to survive why should be even care about where we came from. Curiosity, Entertainment, and other things that aren't directly related to getting food, really confuse me. Why do we all have so much extra "stuff"?
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Offline SmileyMan

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1291 on: March 08, 2008, 05:13:08 pm »
I find it a bit difficult to fully understand how something as complex as an eye could evolve, but I do get the general idea of evolution.

light sensitive cells devoloped  by chance first, and it goes on from their. even worms have this; the basic form of sight. infact, some cases have reported light sesitive cells on the human toung.


I honestly just can't understand how evolution is hard to grasp.

I just can't do it.

because of this:

Quote
the trouble with most people is they think with their hopes or fears of wishes rather than with their minds

and this:

Quote
but reason has no power against feeling, and feelin older than history is no light matter

and this is because:

Quote
feeling are not supposed to be logical. dangerous is the man who has rationalized his emotions


now you have a better grasp on my bottomless store of quotes on love, life, meaning and logic

The thing is, since we are animals, aren't feelings more important then knowledge? I don't want that to be true, but if we need our feelings to survive why should be even care about where we came from. Curiosity, Entertainment, and other things that aren't directly related to getting food, really confuse me. Why do we all have so much extra "stuff"?

Animals use knowledge too, just a lot more primitive than the kind we use. The human brain reached its current state through evolution and natural selection. Natural selection is all about increasing survivability, and knowledge does just that. The knowledge of fire helped us survive the cold winters without our fur, and that's just one of billions things knowledge has done to increase survivability of the species. Knowledge of "think that aren't directly related to getting food" also help us survive. We know that the Sun can't just blow up, and that makes us feel more secure, which can have an effect on our productivity; our survival.

Offline stuck

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1292 on: March 08, 2008, 05:13:48 pm »
I think the best way to explain that is in terms of game theory. You're thinking of evolution as a strictly competitive, zero-sum (meaning all or nothing) game. Evolution is really, however, a cooperative, non-zero sum game with many different payoffs. The winning strategy is often not the one that benefits the individual, but the one that benefits the whole. Even if you place food of sole importance in the utility function (when more realistically you also have different factors), you see that cooperativeness will still likely win. All that "extra stuff", then, exists because the optimal strategy needed it in order to benefit the whole.

Offline Krakow Sam

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1293 on: March 08, 2008, 05:31:59 pm »
Just to clarify, the 'Whole' that Stuck is referring to is usually a single gene. Since closely related populations tend to share a large number of genes it seems that evolution is favouring behaviors that work for the 'good of the species', but really this is just an illusion since everything is done for the good of the 'selfish' gene.
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Offline 7 who ate 9

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1294 on: March 08, 2008, 06:00:18 pm »
I think the best way to explain that is in terms of game theory. You're thinking of evolution as a strictly competitive, zero-sum (meaning all or nothing) game. Evolution is really, however, a cooperative, non-zero sum game with many different payoffs. The winning strategy is often not the one that benefits the individual, but the one that benefits the whole. Even if you place food of sole importance in the utility function (when more realistically you also have different factors), you see that cooperativeness will still likely win. All that "extra stuff", then, exists because the optimal strategy needed it in order to benefit the whole.

Good point. But still, waht really bugs me is "fun". Why do we need it? If you keep an animal is a zoo with everything it needs at the perfect amount, right amount of food, shelter, comfort, water, rest, etc. And then you give it a ball, it will start playing with the ball. Why? I know s/he will first do it for security and curiosity, but eventually it will just interact with it.

About the curiosity thing, TV is a good example. Lets say a TV series comes out, and it is a mystery series. The last episode of the season ends with a cliffhanger, and you can't wait to know what happens. You go on the internet, talk about it in chat rooms, re watch some episodes, and try to put all the clues together. But why? Curiosity, entertainment? If it is curiosity, why should you bother caring? It doesn't affect your life.

And Smiley man, I know animals use knowledge to, notice how i didn't use the word "human" in that post. I try not to separate animals and humans, I just think as humans as more evolved.
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Offline Brandonazz

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1295 on: March 08, 2008, 06:06:11 pm »
Humans are curious because learning about that which we do not know has always been vital to survival.

Offline Neoadept

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1296 on: March 08, 2008, 06:21:02 pm »
Play is the method evolved for rapid, early learning.  Ravens, for instance, spend a lot of their spare time during youth just messing with things and other animals.  They'll land near sleeping dogs and nip at them, over and over again, and then they know how to deal with dogs later on, how close they can safely get, etcetera.  We're just a bit more complicated about it.

As for discussing murder mysteries even if they don't directly affect us?  Our brains simply aren't wired for that degree of separation.  I Og gets mauled, Ug sure as hell tries to figure out what did it and how to stay away, and will get the tribe together to help out and spread information.  We're hardwired to like stories like that because the guy who didn't care enough to join around the fire was the guy that got mauled next.
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Offline Crazen

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1297 on: March 08, 2008, 10:33:26 pm »

The thing is, since we are animals, aren't feelings more important then knowledge? I don't want that to be true, but if we need our feelings to survive why should be even care about where we came from. Curiosity, Entertainment, and other things that aren't directly related to getting food, really confuse me. Why do we all have so much extra "stuff"?

becuase it boring if you dont. why do we go on, otherwise? I mean, our species is known to commit suicide if not happy. that enough of an evolutionary advantage? not being dead?

if you must have an answere rooted in biology, then get that with thinking beyond stimulus, you need a reason too do something. thus  comes all pleasure, positive responce, tast, and everything good.

we wouldn't try to live if it wasnt good to live.
     
the only reason this isnt true of most other animals, is their too reliant on stimulus to think about it.


really, what else is their to do but appeal to our feelings? it way more fullfiling than the alternative.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 10:36:41 pm by Crazen »
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1298 on: March 09, 2008, 03:08:46 am »
Please keep this discussion civil and stop making personal attacks on other members.

My apologies if I came across as being too aggressive, but I think the fact that HW hasn't responded further cements the probability that he's trolling the topic. People just cannot be that stupid, deliberately provoke a reaction, and then just wander away without response after their personal beliefs have been picked completely apart.

Then again, I've been burned often enough for assuming that no-one can be that stupid. It just boggles the mind that someone could fundamentally lack any sort of analytical ability, and maintain such cognitive dissonance.

As a side note:
Calling names is not respectful to their opinions.
This makes no sense. Unless using ad hominem attacks, then there's no relationship between someone and their opinions.

Offline LadyM

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1299 on: March 09, 2008, 07:14:49 am »
1. Be respectful of others at all times.
The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting. If someone disagrees with you, remember to respect their right to their own opinion. This works both ways. Don't be forceful or rude when expressing your opinion. Obscene or sexual references will not be tolerated. This forum is family friendly. If you want to talk with a filthy mouth, do it somewhere else.

6. No personal attacks.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts which are designed to personally berate or insult another. Text of this nature is not beneficial to the community spirit and will not be tolerated.

Members should feel free to post their opinions without fear of being berated and directly insulted. The rules are pretty clear.

Offline The Time Traveller

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1300 on: March 09, 2008, 08:51:26 am »
I haven't been replying because Inkling PMed be suggesting that I wouldn't really change your opinions.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1301 on: March 09, 2008, 09:15:34 am »
post

I'm not sure whether replying to this is going to be in any way productive, but I thought I made it clear that I didn't think he was stupid. I just thought that he was trolling.

Well, whatever, there's no use in me continuing this issue. I've made my points, I think.

Back on topic - circular logic. From Wikipedia:

Begging the question has traditionally described a type of logical fallacy (also called petitio principii) in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises.

So in this instance:
The bible states that it is the word of God, and is the truth. We know that this statement is true, because the bible is the word of God and is the truth.
We can only accept the truth of this statement if we accept the truth that the bible is the word of God. However, since the justification of this premise relies on the premise being justified, the justification fails. A restatement of the issue which demonstrates the fallacy is as follows:
2+2=5 because when we take 2 and add it to 2, we get 5. We know this, because we know that 2+2=5.
Or alternatively, as an almost direct restatement of the bible proposition:
I state that I always speak the truth, and that this statement is true. We know that this statement is true, because I always speak the truth and that statement is true.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 09:32:25 am by Daxx »

Offline Brandonazz

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1302 on: March 09, 2008, 09:48:18 am »
I'm sure everyone understands by now, and anyone who claims they do not is simply provoking us.

Offline Cobra

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1303 on: March 11, 2008, 04:25:59 am »
> Circular logic works because V
^ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Offline Crazen

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1304 on: March 16, 2008, 01:45:00 pm »
that goes in the religion thread
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