Poll

Which are you?

I am an evolutionist (umbrella term)
205 (68.3%)
I am a creationist (umbrella term)
35 (11.7%)
other (both?  none?)
60 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 295

Author Topic: Evolution yes/no  (Read 369384 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gorman Conall

  • Space Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1950 on: July 30, 2008, 06:48:58 pm »
Neither side can be validated? Evolution is not some philosophical ponderance. It's a scientific fact.

The only real debate on the subject could be how it occurs, and even that is a stretch.

So what evolution are you referring to?

Micro as in things like bacteria

Adaption?

Macro as in unicellular to multicellular?

Because only 2 of those are scientific fact

Noun   1.   scientific fact - an observation that has been confirmed repeatedly and is accepted as true (although its truth is never final)

The third one has never been observed nor confirmed repeatedly :).

I also find the entire concept of scientific fact funny. Its basically means scientists can confirm somethings but only guess on others and throw them in to the same pile because *they* accept them as fact and then expect everybody else to because they said so.

Offline Draugr

  • Zork Emperor
  • ****
  • Posts: 524
  • ORGASMIC.
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1951 on: July 30, 2008, 06:56:12 pm »
You're correct Gorman, but we should never forget that evolution's being a theory makes no less true. Many parts of math are theories/theorems. Simply because of this title, we cannot rule them out. Many ignorantly mistake the word theory as a negative brand. It simply means it cannot be proved in all situations. Correct me if I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 06:57:46 pm by Draugr »
Kings 2:23-24 --- The Holy Bible
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youth.

Offline Gorman Conall

  • Space Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1952 on: July 30, 2008, 06:58:24 pm »
You're right to some extent Gorman, but we should never forget that evolution's being a theory makes no less true. Many parts of math are theories/theorems. Simply because of this title, we cannot rule them out. Many ignorantly mistake the word theory as a negative brand. It simply means it cannot be proved in all situations. Correct me if I'm wrong.

No your correct.

I just get annoyed how micro macro and adaption all get lumped in to one word (evolution) and then said to be scientific fact. When its true to some extent but not others.

Offline Ultramarine

  • Bungeling Bay Raider
  • *****
  • Posts: 3278
  • Whatever.
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1953 on: July 30, 2008, 07:03:29 pm »
You bring up a good point Gorman.

It's annoying when they put it in one category, well most people do.
Kid: Oh wow I'm being deflowered by a grown woman!
Mother: By the way I'm your mother
Kid: OH GOD NO

EDIT: That's where it becomes rape if you were wondering.

ヽ(`∇´)人(´∇`)人(`∇´)ノ   (゚д゚; )

Offline Brandonazz

  • All Your Base Zero Wing
  • *****
  • Posts: 8908
  • Everything ends.
    • View Profile
    • My Internet Treasure Trove
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1954 on: July 30, 2008, 07:12:49 pm »
So what evolution are you referring to?

Micro as in things like bacteria

Adaption?

Macro as in unicellular to multicellular?

Because only 2 of those are scientific fact

I am referring to the factual bits. The parts that disqualify "only a theory."

If microevolution and adaption occur, creationism doesn't make much sense, now does it?

Offline Ultramarine

  • Bungeling Bay Raider
  • *****
  • Posts: 3278
  • Whatever.
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1955 on: July 30, 2008, 07:14:09 pm »
Creationism would become more of a crackpot theory than it already is :P
Kid: Oh wow I'm being deflowered by a grown woman!
Mother: By the way I'm your mother
Kid: OH GOD NO

EDIT: That's where it becomes rape if you were wondering.

ヽ(`∇´)人(´∇`)人(`∇´)ノ   (゚д゚; )

Offline Neoadept

  • Fooblitzky Fooble
  • *****
  • Posts: 4268
  • Has a nice hat
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1956 on: July 30, 2008, 07:34:45 pm »
No, we have not observed macro evolution, but we can infer it from the other two.  Just as we can infer that erosion caused the grand canyon by looking at streams and rivers wearing down their shores.

In contrast, we have never observed anything that even suggests the possibility of an outside influence upon the universe creating life or guiding it.  Yes, you can claim magical hiding powers, but, well, Russel's teapot.

We are not automatically dismissing your claims based on preconceived notions, we are treating them as a hypothesis.  When compared to the competing hypothesis, now standing theory, they just don't hold up.
Nefarious?  Nearly.  Ne’er-do-well?  Never!  Neither nearly names this narrator.  Naive and knowledgeable, notorious and inscrutable, this nascent Nero is known naturally as Neoadept.

Offline Gorman Conall

  • Space Ace
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1957 on: July 30, 2008, 09:31:56 pm »
So what evolution are you referring to?

Micro as in things like bacteria

Adaption?

Macro as in unicellular to multicellular?

Because only 2 of those are scientific fact

I am referring to the factual bits. The parts that disqualify "only a theory."

If microevolution and adaption occur, creationism doesn't make much sense, now does it?

Creationism wouldn't make much sense to most people ether way  :P.

But i don't see micro evolution and adaption having an impact on creationism.

If Macro were to be proven then creationism would be false.

Offline Interrobang

  • Boot Hill Bandit
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Really Cool Guy
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1958 on: July 30, 2008, 09:54:14 pm »
So what evolution are you referring to?

Micro as in things like bacteria

Adaption?

Macro as in unicellular to multicellular?

Because only 2 of those are scientific fact

I am referring to the factual bits. The parts that disqualify "only a theory."

If microevolution and adaption occur, creationism doesn't make much sense, now does it?

Creationism wouldn't make much sense to most people ether way  :P.

But i don't see micro evolution and adaption having an impact on creationism.

If Macro were to be proven then creationism would be false.

Not necessarily.
[INSERT QUOTE HERE]

Offline Logan Felipe

  • Ultima Lord
  • ****
  • Posts: 734
  • SAND JABBA!
    • View Profile
    • Personal World Clock
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1959 on: July 30, 2008, 10:12:07 pm »
So what evolution are you referring to?

Micro as in things like bacteria

Adaption?

Macro as in unicellular to multicellular?

Because only 2 of those are scientific fact

I am referring to the factual bits. The parts that disqualify "only a theory."

If microevolution and adaption occur, creationism doesn't make much sense, now does it?

Creationism wouldn't make much sense to most people ether way  :P.

But i don't see micro evolution and adaption having an impact on creationism.

If Macro were to be proven then creationism would be false.

But you forget the fossil record. The mutation of homologous structures can be seen dozens of times over in the fossil record (especially where sirenians and cetatians are concerned). Plus, the genetic laws involved have been proved daily in controlled experiments ever since the Mendell bean experiment (and argueably since homo sapiens started domesticating and breeding animals). When you combine this data, you have a very strong case for "macro" evolution.

How would "Micro" Evolution coexist with creationism? Creationism says that all life was created by a higher intellect. "Micro" evolution states that life slowly developed and changed over time from proteins.
Spore! Star Wars! Dinosaurs!
Fanfic!

I blame what I call the Scopes Law (When discussing evolution in the presence of a creationist, the discussion always becomes a religious debate).

Offline Rusted

  • Battlezone Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1960 on: July 30, 2008, 11:39:40 pm »
Quote

You won't evolve or see another star... so maybe there are better battles for the individual. :'(


I believe it is actually probable that I will see the end of natural death or stabilization of cryogenics's in my lifetime assuming some religious fanatic(s) don't vaporize or otherwise impede human development. Which in turn means it's possible I could see another star.

As for evolution as a proponent of social Darwinism I evolve daily.

 
I did get your joke, wasn't intending to directly counter you more as a general statement that your post let me springboard to.
Terraforming. 
Turning dirt, forming.
Turning dirt; forming.
Terraforming.


Rusted -Sporepedia Name and Link
PM if you add me, I'll return the favor.

Offline Rusted

  • Battlezone Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1961 on: July 30, 2008, 11:47:59 pm »
Quote

How would "Micro" Evolution coexist with creationism? Creationism says that all life was created by a higher intellect. "Micro" evolution states that life slowly developed and changed over time from proteins.

Because creationism is something that was made up within the last couple decades anyway, why not change it around a little more? it's already acting as a catch all net.  Even creationists can't agree on which "irrefutable" way the infallible deity made the world.


As more and more light is shed on the reality of existence religion will continue to back pedal into darker and darker corners.  At least they aren't burning people at the stake still.... for the most part.
Terraforming. 
Turning dirt, forming.
Turning dirt; forming.
Terraforming.


Rusted -Sporepedia Name and Link
PM if you add me, I'll return the favor.

Offline Daxx

  • Golden Axe Battler
  • *****
  • Posts: 8613
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1962 on: July 31, 2008, 03:25:57 am »
Okay, let's just stop this now before you kiddies continue to take the creationist at his word.

If Macro were to be proven then creationism would be false.

Macroevolution is defined as evolution at or above the species level, and isn't really distinct from "microevolution" anyway - it's just a matter of time and scale. "The consensus of the scientific community is that the alleged micro-macro division is an artificial construct made by creationists and does not accurately reflect the actual processes of evolution."

But let's assume that you can make the distinction.

Speciation (a macroevolutionary event) has been physically observed. Other macro-scale changes can be observed in the fossil record, and can be simulated, and are consistent with established theory.

Therefore, according to you, creationism is false.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB901.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 03:30:50 am by Daxx »

Offline MetallicDragon

  • Apprentice Enchanter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2505
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1963 on: July 31, 2008, 02:18:19 pm »
I thought creationism deals with how life was made, and evolution deals with just how it evolved? Couldn't both coexists?

Offline Andrew Ryan

  • Simon Belmont
  • *****
  • Posts: 5361
  • A man has a choice, I chose the impossible!
    • View Profile
Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1964 on: July 31, 2008, 02:45:41 pm »
Um no. Creationist and Evolutionist thought are completely opposite from one another, like the two sides of a coin. Creationists believe that an "Intellegent Being" (AKA God) created everything at once and that everything that existed then exists now. Evolutionists believe life changed gradually over the course of millions of years and that some things died out while other things changed to suit their environment.
"Don't worry 'bout me. I wouldn't worry about me. Don't you worry about me. Don't you worry 'bout me!" - Talking Heads, Don't Worry About the Government