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Messages - YESH

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 25, 2008, 08:24:01 am »
Will experience reducing copy protection help decrease piracy in any way? No.
Is piracy therefor justifiable? No.

Piracy is wrong, but making horrible copy protection software won't make it go away.
And yes, copy protection does increase piracy activity. Proof?
Cubase crashes for me because of the copy protection they made for it.
I lost administrative rights to launch half of my applications at the exact moment I'd finished installing Spore.
What did I do? I pirated the software and got a working version.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/media-407358/Game-Consoles-How-Anti-Piracy-Screws-over-People-who-Buy-PC-Games.html


The problem is the gaming companies don't see piracy for what it is; a cry for improvement. The gaming companies choose to buttf*ck their customers instead of keeping up with the technological progressions, like Valve, Steam actually makes me want to buy their games, simply because it's mind-numbingly easy and I haven't had any problems with it. And don't say my opinion is statistically insignificant, because else, piracy wouldn't be such a big problem.

What copy-protection software basically does is force every legitimate software buyer left to pirate, it's a complete and utterly bullsh*t solution, it's a plain shoot-yourself-in-the-foot solution.

EDIT: Just remembered something else. A guy I know pirates all the time, he got Steam recently and somehow that inspired him to buy a buttload of games he had previously downloaded, so don't tell me that companies can't do anything, but make copy-protection, to help piracy problems.

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 15, 2008, 10:03:10 am »
Gorman, i read youir dictionary entry, did you even read that?, it had nothing to do with piracy in it.
A copy of a copyrighted work is what you'd get if you pirated something?

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 14, 2008, 02:43:38 pm »
And when you buy and download software you're getting everything you would've got if you pirated it, plus a load of anti-piracy software which could mess up your software or at least make it unstable to run. I say this from experience.

Legally buy it then download it elsewhere.

Never said I didn't. Just making an irrelevant point.

Some countries have the most ridiculous laws you could imagine, but they are real, and they carry punishments. But should you simply lay down and accept every ramming the State serves you without a hint of protest? What if the entire population just laid back and allowed the governments to F them in the A with whatever laws they could dream up?
Hehe, as ironic as it is, F'in someone in the A is illegal in some states and countries.
Seriously though, you should always question authority, because they are still just humanbeings, not some kind of god.

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 14, 2008, 12:05:45 pm »
.......

THE BLOODY GAME IS NOT FREE, ITS NOT FREE, ITS NOT FREE.

The game is not free

THE   GAME    IS    NOT   FREE

T  H  E  G  A  M  E  I  S  N  O  T  F  R  E  E

If you have a game that was not payed for when the game is not FREE its theft. Just because you don't have a physical copy means NOTHING.When you buy a game your NOT paying 60 bones for a shiny disk. YOUR PAYING FOR THE GAME THAT'S ON THE DISC THAT YOU DOWNLOADED FOR FREE. Guess what when i buy a game on direct download...I'm not even getting a disc. I'M GETTING THE VERY THING I WOULD HAVE GOT IF I PIRATED IT.

It does not matter what your moral standing of the issue is, The game is not free.

It does not matter if you  would've never bought it (which you don't actually know until AFTER you illegally play it) ITS NOT FREE

It does not matter if you uninstall it after. ITS NOT A DEMO ITS NOT FREE.

If you have something that was not payed for by you or somebody else when its not FREE you ether stole it or are using stolen merchandise.
 
Claiming its not theft is just deluding yourself in to some kind of self justification that your not committing as bad a crime as you actually are.
...
You know, repeating yourself and writing half your post in capslock is not going to make your argument seem more valid, to the contrary, it's going to discredit your argument and write you off as immature and aggressive.
I agree with view on the parallels of stealing and pirating, but nobody here is trying to justify pirating, at least not that I know of, we're simply discussing whether pirating is the same as stealing.
And when you buy and download software you're getting everything you would've got if you pirated it, plus a load of anti-piracy software which could mess up your software or at least make it unstable to run. I say this from experience.

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 14, 2008, 10:03:36 am »
Even if half the people who already pirate did that it still wouldn't solve the pirating problem, becuase not everybody would do that, lots of people don't even worry about violating the piracy law anyway. Plus lots of people don't like the idea of montly fees, to them it's just another bill.
I half the people who pirate did that, it would be a very big step forward.
I'm sure it would help more than companies just putting all these anti piracy measures in their products, which in the end will only hurt the legitimate customers.
I think it's a bit harsh of you to just assume everybody's a bunch of immoral ignorants who would do anything to get out of paying for a product.

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 14, 2008, 09:14:50 am »
The point is torrent sites already opperate outside of the law, so just telling them they have to shut down doesn't work. The people who run the torrent sites are pro-piracy and anti payment, so there not just going to go alongwith it. Also to be honest a monthly fee is more likely to put peolple off the site, ven more than just having to buy the game of steam or something. In the end people are still going to find a way to not have to pay anything and i'm fairly sure people would rather use limewire than give out credit card details and continue downloading for a fee, you don't get anything extra, but it still costs.

You can't be sure unless you interview people. I would, without a doubt, take advantage of it if I had the option to download any movie or game I wanted, when I wanted, for a monthly fee, and not have to worry about breaking any laws or feeling bad that I'm not supporting the people I should.

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 14, 2008, 06:55:29 am »
Well, it would solve it if you made sure every torrent site had to give up the numbers of downloaded content. And install a system that made people who download have to pay a monthly fee to download the torrents. Instead of trying to push the torrents out that a lot of people use, they should be inspired and build on to that system.
Or maybe shut down the major torrent sites and start a new one with this system, I think a lot of downloaders would be attracted to this option, if they could get their games as easy as before and still legally, and it would somehow seem like free games, since you're not directly paying for the games but just a monthly fee for using this system.
I know some people who used to download a lot of music illegally, but then they found this site where you could just download the tracks easily with one click directly from the site, you're credit card information is securely attached to your account, so the money is withdrawn automatically as you download. No downloading of applications like iTunes and all that, just one click on a site, I think that is what attracts people.

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 14, 2008, 05:29:11 am »
But is it not a bad sign if so many ignore the law? The industry (publisher mainly) wish to have more control and stricter laws. That is also what we are seeing around the world.

But then again like you say. The law might not be the problem. But i still would like to know what you find a good balance.

I my self is of the view that something must be done. Stricter laws i think will just create more problems. And so many people do not agree with the laws therefor are willing to brake them. Even you your self have admitted to braking copyright law. I would like to see a new model to be at least tested. Maybe some sort of digital everyman's right with some form of compensation system?

That reminds me of a interview i heard. Someone was proposing a compensation system based on the number of downloads a copyrighted work had. The interviewer asked if also porn should be covered. Apparently not all culture is equal to some. It is OK to pirate porn but not Hollywood films :P
Actually that kinda sounds like a good idea.
So you have to pay a kind of monthly fee if you're a member of this online downloading service and then the money raised from that will each month be distributed between publishers and creators, the more their products have been downloaded, the bigger a percentage they will get of that money.
So greedy publishers wouldn't exist, since you can't get billions and billions of dollars, but only enough to keep your business going, that would also mean EA wouldn't have been able to buy Maxis out.
And then it would end up as the music industry, where the real income comes from shows and live performances, so game companies could host events and stuff like that to generate further income and do more for their customers.
When it comes to music I usually only buy CD's, not mp3's, beacuse you get the cover art and stuff like that, I like to have a hard evidence of the music I own, so in that way games that you'd buy in a store would have extra material so the companies would also generate money through that.

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 13, 2008, 06:49:00 pm »
Last time i check copyright existed before the digital era.

Also you can not know if you lose a sale due to piracy. The person might end up buying the product anyway or he would never have bought the product even if he could not pirate it.

Also there are other forms of Copyright violations like creating a derived work and such. Is this stealing?

But whatever. It seems i can not convince people is not stealing. But i still say its a crime. Also i do not wish to put any moral value on it. Though those that call it stealing often do so because they wish to put there morality on the issue without actually debating it.
I think I said something I shouldn't have along the way aswell, I'm thinking more in terms of the act of pirating vs. the act of stealing, not really copyright violation in itself.

I would argue that it is very possible to lose a sale due to piracy, I know a lot of people who simply just download because it's free.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue for the morality of piracy, more the parallels between it and stealing. I've pirated myself so I'm not on a moral high ground or anything like that, I do support everything I should support though. I bought Spore legitimately to my regret.
So why do we have the laws we have today? To uphold the Status Quo? The laws have become progressively more restrictive when it comes to copyright so is not like we have the same laws we had back 10 years ago.

I guess what i am saying is that i do not understand you view on this matter but i have a feeling that you not 100% happy with them ether. I am of the view that that which does not work needs to be fixed.
Yeah, well, I'm a little alternative when it comes to politics and such, so I don't want to delve in to a discussion about that, it would just end in some discussion about bizarre theories and what not.
I don't believe making the laws progressively more strict is going to change anything though, pirate activity isn't decreasing, and it's not because of the law, it's because of the the general mentality of the individual, change should happen within the industry and within the culture, not by laws.

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 13, 2008, 05:53:47 pm »
Just because you do directly or indirectly economical harm to someone does not mean it stealing. Example: I trash someones car. that is direct economical harm to someone yet is not stealing. I did not steal the car.

I could go on making comparisons but i wont.
When you pirate you end up with a product and someone looses money.
When you steal you end up with a product and someone looses money.
When you trash a car, it's just vandalism, 100% destructive for everyone.
The only reason why pirating and stealing are not synonyms is because of the grey area between digitalization and real life. Pirating is just duplicating, yes, but that's the only difference, isn't it? It's still, more or less, one product on the shelf at some store that's rendered pointless for everyone but the pirate, since they wont profit from it.


So do you think we should remove copyright laws as the laws do not do what there intended to do? (spreed culture)

Or have i misunderstood you? Is there a other reason to keep copyright laws?
No, we shouldn't remove the copyright laws just because a percentage of people chooses not to uphold them. We shouldn't mess with the laws. We need a revolution or we need look the other way. I don't think this is one of those things that'll change with a model, this is human behavior.

People will get stuff as easily as they can, the publishers should get inspired by the torrentsystem and create something similar so people can get their product easily and still pay, without limited installs and incomprehensible applications and support and some type of "bonus" instead of a massive headache if you have the legit version.

And people are greedy, they want money, so creators and artists should kick their publishers in the faces to remind them that they want to please their fans not take their money, greedy creators and artists should get boycotted, that means putting every musician currently with a hit on the radio out of a job.

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 13, 2008, 05:18:34 pm »
If you look at it in a bigger picture: When downloading a product and violating copyrights, you're not paying for the product that a creator made, he will not receive money for his product, and he will thereby not be able to use the hypothetical property he would've bought with the money he should've gotten from the product you downloaded and did not pay for, so you are indirectly stealing. As long as there is a monetary system, pirating is stealing.

Besides, it's not like just because it's ones and zeros on a computer it's suddenly fine to "take" a product without paying the price it costs. Just because you export tracks from a CD to files on your computer doesn't mean the artist won't lose money when you send it to your peers online. You would use the word "steal" or "theft" if you had to make a real life analogy to pirating, so whether or not the objective definition of the words are different, they are still theoretically the same.



I don't see how laws have anything to do with stimulating the spread of culture? I don't think laws are the root of this problem. Making more laws or out date others will only create more problems, the problem is really more of a subjective one, where publishers and creators need to start finding ways to accommodate the customer rather than fighting the pirates and try to make up for lost money by ripping people off for would've-been free services.
We could also just say that "this is just the way it is" and just ignore that legitimate customers are getting a less than adequate treatment and people are downloading software without paying, but what good is that? But then again, there aren't many possibilities for change.

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 13, 2008, 02:40:58 pm »
And what model do you propose? You know just saying we should get rid of the publishers will solve nothing. You need to do something about it.

(Beyond just protesting and violating copyright laws. Yeah you heard me. Is a violation to copyright law to "pirate" something. Stealing is something completely different. It really annoys me when people mix those things up.)
I didn't mean to mix up stealing and pirating, sorry, but in some way you are stealing the creators intellectual property.

There is no model? You can't just change the entertainment industry.
I'm just saying, if you really needed to do something about piracy, unfair publishers and compensating the creator, creators themselves protesting against their publishers would be the only "realistic" way of going about it, I believe. Or creators should start publishing themselves.

Publishers aren't interested in the product as such, they just want to market and sell it, that's why we're seeing an increasing number of uninspired boring entertainment products. Nobody outside of the gaming industry is really thinking outside the box or reinventing the wheel, but that's because the gaming industry is fairly new, it can't be long until every game will look the same, EA is making that industry head there fast.

...I'm just really P'd off at the inane music that's currently being pushed in to the market constantly by greedy record labels, so I'm just ranting, sorry.

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Spore: General / Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« on: December 13, 2008, 12:50:48 pm »
Anyone has a alternative solution to the problem of compensating the creator?

(or to be more precise. A other model to promote culture and the spreed of information and innovation.)
Get rid of greedy publishers who spent more time and energy thinking up new ways to keep people from stealing the game they're publishing while stealing their customers money than thinking up new ways to help and assist their customers so they wont feel ripped off.
Or creators could do like Trent and stand up to them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFXivarypE4

You shouldn't steal from creators you like but you shouldn't support their greedy publishers, it's a big dilemma.

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Spore: General / Re: So check this graph out..
« on: November 26, 2008, 08:25:08 am »
Isn't there a line from the Bible, "When I was a child, I did childish things. When I became a man, I put away those childish things."

Ironically, there is another line in the bible that goes, "Unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens."

Anyways, the comparison of Spore to a Barbie game. Barbie games, from what I can tell, are just a series of text and simple puzzles. But they obviously spent more time developing Spore than it takes making a Barbie game. They spent a lot of time perfecting the technology, that sadly not a lot of people bother to recognize. You ignored what Will intended this game to be, as an artist in a box. I don't play Spore as a game, because as you said the gameplay is shallow. But now I play it as Will meant it to be. I like being creative.

I remember him saying, "I think a lot of people hopefully won't really think of Spore as a game; they'll think of it as this elaborate toy box or creativity tool," So if you want to try to create something cool, play Spore. If you want to play a fun game with depth, play what ever it is you prefer to play. Don't facilitate Spore as a "game."


What's the point of making it a game then? The thing that really intrigued me about Spore was that you had so much control of how your game would turn out(keyword: Game). Of course you're supposed to be creative in Spore, and that's a big selling point, but it's still a game and that's what's cool about it, you can control how everything looks and, to a certain degree, acts and then you can try it out in real-time.
In a bigger picture this is a a simulation, not a tool. It has tools in it, but all in all it's a game. And this game's presentation really fails to show off it's superior technology and ends up feeling and looking like a children's game.

If I want to be creative I make some music or boot up a 3D-app and learn something constructive that I can use in the real world, when I want entertainment I simply play a game that I am able to play because of other people's creativity. If I just wanted to make creatures I would've bought a pen and some paper or something to that effect, not a game.

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Spore: General / Re: So check this graph out..
« on: November 26, 2008, 06:49:13 am »
Google Trends is a much better reference for internet searches!

WoW and RuneScape are there to show that MMOs are the exception to the spiked-popularity rule. Not that they get less popular, but they're internet MMOs that practically require a guide, so of course they get searched a lot.
This is Maxis we're talking about, their games usually don't die out this fast.

It's always the gameplay that gets me interested in a game and aesthetics that keeps me interested, but since Maxis basically made Spore in to a children's game, I ended up playing it for 2 days, after 3 years of wait.
It feels like I'm being talked down to through the whole game and everything just seems overly simplified, as if this game wasn't meant for anyone above the age of 10. And sometimes it seems too unrealistic for me to comprehend, so I just give up. A lot of the gaming experience could be saved by changing and removing, rather than adding, in my opinion.

On some level I agree with Fumanchu.
I've been talking about this game alot to friends, although they've been very sceptical.
I was sure that it was going to surprise them positively, but when it finally came out and they tried it, I actually felt a little ashamed that I've been hyping this kids game to them. My friend called me up because he got to try it before me and asked me if I was sure about this not being a children's game. The whole thing just feels like an educational toon for kids.

If Spore was meant as a kids game, so be it, I wish they'd make a more mature version of it, but Spore as it is now, is really unappealing to me.

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