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Messages - FullMentalJackpot

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Spore: General / Re: Will Wright's punch out.
« on: May 16, 2006, 08:08:12 pm »
Why do you say that you just bash your prey to death? What about the different kinds of mouths with all kinds of teeth formations? What about all the different types of claws? What about the sharp beaks that you could maybe impale prey on the end of with?

Besides, predators that use tactics such as trap doors, digging, ambush, poison, these are predators that typically hunt alone and only get together with other members of their species to mate because they don't need to socialise to get food or protection. Thus if they aren't social, then it would be mighty hard to evolve societies. And if it can't evolve societies, the species is doomed to a sapiantless future.

Mouth parts ? lets hope they do something other then eat.  I wanna see some, tearing ,sucking blood, biting, lacerating , goring/impaling, and hopefully a little intoxication, and i don't mean the alcoholic type.

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Spore: General / Re: Will Wright's punch out.
« on: May 16, 2006, 07:29:02 pm »
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Quick muscle reflex is a matter of speed, both phsyiologically and anatomically. A slow creature does not necessarily imply overall slowness. Stealth is the manipulation of an element, whereas speed is the element. I wonder though if quick reflex will be a factor in Spore (perhaps the size of the arms/legs will facilitate this). I really hope this gets in...

But about the "boxing" type fighting issue, I'm guessing the creature parts will do more than just greater surface area for bashing. It's likely that they'll have different abilities/hit levels.

Quote

Yes agreed, but it's not a matter of which foot part provides faster velocity accross the ground or faster "foot speed". That's the difference. its' a matter of the contractile elments in the other limbs

Stealth is the manipulation of the elment of speed ? what about camo(blending into the ambient enviornment), sillohette disruption(extensions of the body that resemble local flora), reducing your target profile( getting close to the ground). These elements have nothing to do with velocity and yet should be included.  An artic rabbit is more stealthy then an prairie rabbit when it's in a snow covered enviornment.

 A stealth aircraft like the B2 northrop is slow as molasses compared to it's predicessor the B1. It's slow velocity isn't what gives it the stealthy catagorization, it's radar absorbant material just allows  it fly undetected in a region where normal vertical surfaces would be detected. The element can be in many circumstances is indipendent of speed, however speed should certainly be a modify of stealth, just not the primary element.

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Spore: General / Re: Will Wright's punch out.
« on: May 16, 2006, 07:10:25 pm »
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The pistol shrimp is able to disorient it's prey by introducing it to temperatures approaching teh sun, which rappidly dissipate.

wtf?  care to elaborate i serously doubt this.

though i hate to use wiki because it's can get tainted easily,

When the bubble implodes it momentarily reaches temperatures of several thousand kelvins, comparable to the temperature of the outer layer of the Sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_pistol_shrimp

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Spore: General / Re: Will Wright's punch out.
« on: May 16, 2006, 03:01:39 pm »
Well, most of what you listed in your original post is what happens after a creature is caught...

- Drowning, you'd have to catch the creature first.
- Crushing, using stealth (you called it a simple modification of behavior) you have to catch the creature.
- Curved teeth, you have to catch the creature first.
- Parasitism, you have to attach to the creature first.
- Venom, you have to catch the creature first.
- Digging, you have to find them first (which is done by catching where they go).
- Impaling, you have to catch them first.

They're all your examples, and they all require an element of speed. The few exceptions that you listed that do not require speed are all quite sophisticated, and although I would love to see them in-game, I'm not sure if they'll be given necessary attention.

Speed is a crucial factor, but make no mistake, it's not a linear property. How you use speed is what makes your game unique. Spore can be the most linear game, or it can be the most exponential - it all depends on how you play it.

i disagree All these traits are compatable with speed other then digging which is exclusive to speed, You must dig faster then the organism can move through it's burrow. These traits are not mutually exclusive to speed. Stealth is also compatable with all of them. Which according to brutus is in the game. Since the game, however, seems to be centered around boxing if the first hit doesn't kill the prey item, it will escape any suprise that requires a few jabs and right hooks to finish off the prey item, which is why foot speed seems overly critical. In true life hooked teeth prevent escape, claws tear away muscle crippling prey even after they escape, venom destroys the nervous system or muscle nerve interface. Why does the organism have to sit there for 5 rounds when it could emerge from a trap door or release a spike and impale it's prey in a ciritcal location immeidatly killing or causing critical damage ?



So... You're saying... To survive you need to have the ability to move?

No! I was referring to your ambush thing. Speed, as natural selection has proven, is a very valuable quality.

okay i'm trying to make a distinction here between foot speed that is evolved as a resault of using better feet parts to chase something down

vs

stealth that requires a quick burst of speed, but doesn't necessarily to have a prolong that speed over distances to catch prey. infact the predator doesn't even have to change it's position overall. therefore when moving through the enviornment the predator can have extermely slow foot speed but overwhelming speed of it's limbs , or parts, that catch prey.

like the stonefish, it's camoed' and sits around waiting for prey, it has poor aquadynamic geomotry so it's swimming speed is nothing compared to a marlin, however it's mouth parts can move so rappidly that it can encapsulate a prey item faster then it can swim away. however it does not chase that prey item down. it relies on it's camo to allow it to get close enough.


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Spore: General / Re: Will Wright's punch out.
« on: May 16, 2006, 01:43:58 pm »
when will wright controls the clownasaur he says "these guys are small and easy however they are very social so they are acting as a group to beat me and i am not going to fair very well over here"

and yes, smell and hearing increase the sense slider, if your creature has no ears, then the npc versions will not hear anything and will be easy to sneak up on

a stealth gauge would be great? the stealth slider changes due to the size and build of your creature and how tall it is and everything, its got nothing to do with walking speed,

Well this is all good news, but we still have a planet full of mantis shrimp. Like i said in an earlier post, i can think of only two organism that smash the crap outta their prey items. Add a thrid, sea otter. All the animation i've seen during conflict involves punching. It seems like an odd thing to choose on a planet full of claws teeth, poison, etc.

How many sliders are there ?
vision, olfaction, stealth? audatory. What else?

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Spore: General / Re: Will Wright's punch out.
« on: May 16, 2006, 01:34:01 pm »
wow, full metal jackpot, that is one hell of a devoted post for a first post and a very flawed post, i see what you mean but by your logic, all the herbivores will need is speed to run away from the predators who also only need speed and once again this leads to linear gameplay, but there is so much more to spore,

there is a sense thing and if your creature doesn't have good enough eyes it (the npc versions of your creature, not the one you control, the others) will not be able to see predators and  its prey good enogh

there is a stealth gauge that scavengers can use so they can sneak up on nests without being seen and eat the eggs and also steal kills off other animals

there are herds so animals can be social so they dont need speed because they could help each other in order to fight and not flee in order to not be eaten,

there is much more to spore than speed, do your research

And on the issue of herbivors, i didn't want to discuss that topic and dilute this one. armorplating, spines, venom, amputation of tails, Central nervous system concealment (two headed snake), subterraining habituation, arboreal habituation, irritent dispursion( skunks , bombadier beetle, felinas domesticas). I just want to concentrate on teh fact that the game seems to center around a boxing match or a gang of boxers who upgrade with speed to K.O. their prey for the carnivore path.

I've seen all the videos and i didn't hear a mention of anything other then the "pack hunting" behavior. Pack hunting is a valid strategy but the organisms are still running up to some prey item and trying to TKO it with their fists as fast as possible. Speed is still critical as are fists that are had as rocks. Where's the ripping, tearing, serrating, shreding, clawing evisceration. That's only somewhat visible in the proceedural verb stage of the eating organism dragging it's prety from teh water video.

A stealth gauge would be great. but is stealth modified by your movment speed ? or your ability to disrupt your contours and also blend in with the ambient enviornment ? or maintain a low low profile to the ground. Otherwise stealth is not an adaptation, it's just a variation in movement speed.

I had no idea about the sense thing, i concede that's a good thing.
What about Scent/olfaction/chemoreception. this strategy is far more ancient then vision.

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Spore: General / Will Wright's punch out.
« on: May 16, 2006, 12:57:46 pm »
From the little i've seen it appears spore will center around one critical objective during the organism stage for carnivorious. That is aquiring speed so you can chase down a potential prey item. An identical biological strategy of the Cheetah, a Falcon or a shark. This would , obviouslly, cause the game to become extermely linear ,atleast for carnivores. On earth there are plenty of strategies carnivores use that don't require speed and bashing the hell outta a prey item with your primary limbs.

  • camouflage (preying mantis, Various species of snakes) incidently camo is great defensive adaptation too.
        A sub stratagy would be using the enviornment to conceal the organism body or sillohette. This stratagy is identical to allagators who wait at the shore with only their eyes exposed (which just so happen are positioned at the top of their skull for that reason). When a prey item comes to drink it doesn't chase down it's prey but opens it's mouth and grabs it, dragging it into the water.
    Prey Drowning, then final sequence of the aligators predatory plan
    Prey Crushing: this strategy employed by the anaconda. crushes bones, and asphyxiates by compressing the volume of the prey items lungs.
    Curved teeth. Allow the predator to Bite one time and that's it. The angle of the teeth make the only way to remove oneself from teh bite either tear away a big chunk of flesh or
    insert that body part further into the mouth to dislodge.
    Parasitism
    Venom ( or some indigenous oral bacterium that produces neuro toxins, like the komodo dragon), the predator inserts the toxin then sits back and waits for the prey to die.
    Filter feeding (similar to sperm whales),
    Lateral lines of sharks can detect the electrical charge of fish hiding under sand the sea basin.
    Dolphins can blast their prey with highly concentrated bursts of energy or sonar.
    Whales oxygen expulsion push schooling fish up to the surface where they are then engulfed, due to innability to swim up any further.
    The pistol shrimp is able to disorient it's prey by introducing it to temperatures approaching teh sun, which rappidly dissipate.
    Digging. some prarie foxes or feral dogs, i think, dig up small rats like prarie dogs or rabbits that burrow.
    Impaling. Various crustacions , possibly even the blue marlin game fish.

   If anybody can think of more please post them.

The point is the game is starting to appear very linear. Where it looks like there will be a race to "get more speed" so you can run up to something and smash your food to death. Infact i can't think of any organism that employs the "bash the hell outta something strat" except two (man, using prehensile tools. and the mantis shrimp, which use a highly evolved hammer like limb), which is why i scratch my head at Wrights selection of this strategy when many others that i've stated are far more commen.

And then theres the predators ability to detect prey or bring prey to them. This game seems to visually focused when there are so many other stratagies then
Angler fish uses light to attract, Various plants (pitcher, venus fly trap) use scents to attract insects.
Exceptional olfactory or auditory capabilities that allow organisms to localize their prey (sharks or bats/ owls, that can detect movement or prey in complete darkness),
Highly senstive sensory organs (mole),

I understand the game is not done and things may change, but if they don't then we do have a linear game.
i also understand that "bashing/smashing strategy may have evolved early on some planets and just remained a primary strategy of organisms due to the common ancestors success with it"
I am also not discussing Defensive stratagies here, that is a whole other topic, and a valid one. There are probably more defensive stratagies then carniveroius ones.




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