Gaming Steve Message Board

Will Wright's Spore => Spore: General => Topic started by: Muggerman on March 09, 2006, 07:46:05 pm

Title: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Muggerman on March 09, 2006, 07:46:05 pm
I bet you that when Spore comes out, there will be a huge controversy.... involving the christians. Especially the "hardcore" christians that burn anything that says the word "evolution" (Even though they really dont know the first thing about it, like most people, just assumptions). So I think that Spore will be all over the news, and there will be huge debates and tons of christians trying to get this game off the shelves, saying that "It teaches our kids about evolution!" or other things, but Im sure you know what kinds of things they will say.

*prepares to argue with lots of christians over the internet*
Thoughts?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 09, 2006, 07:46:55 pm
evil blasphomous secrets!!!!


yay
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SpecialBrownies on March 09, 2006, 07:58:23 pm
Those silly Christians and their anti-evolution.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LadyM on March 09, 2006, 07:59:57 pm
aname: Please don't make a post with a large empty space in it, it makes the thread harder to read and its not productive. Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 09, 2006, 08:09:51 pm
yes ladyM, srry, have a piggy! *gives piggy* :P
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GrrrArrgh on March 09, 2006, 08:11:40 pm
This can 'o worms has been opened before, and all the worms were eaten or something.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Zorlac on March 09, 2006, 08:12:16 pm
It seems to me that hard-core religious fanatics seem to have a problem with anything that their religion doesn't 'approve' of no matter what.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Aybraus on March 09, 2006, 08:19:12 pm
I didn't see much reaction from Fundies from GTA or the Sims...

...or any game really...

...I don't think they care.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Muggerman on March 09, 2006, 08:20:44 pm
I didn't see much reaction from Fundies from GTA or the Sims...

...or any game really...

...I don't think they care.
those games didnt promote evolution. Or have anything to do with evolutions for that matter.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: KroBua on March 09, 2006, 08:22:25 pm
I doubt that anything big will happen other then what normally happens when a game comes out.  Its really no biggie
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Hydromancerx on March 09, 2006, 08:29:12 pm
What about if they make a planet of all Jesus? Or even worse a planet of all Mohammad and then the extreme anti-Western Muslims will burn down EA just like they did with those Danish cartoons.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mr. Wizard on March 09, 2006, 08:32:34 pm
Some Christians I have talked to said the opposite, that this game actually supports intelligent design, because a higher being (A.K.A you) designs the creature. Ibelieeve there was an audio discussion where Will Wright was asked that question, and he said he thought that would be their reaction.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: deathc4 on March 09, 2006, 08:41:09 pm
Should be intersting. But lets take a look at something funny: http://atheistgoat.ytmnd.com/

That is SO spot on, I often am grouchy, sad, AND lashing out at small children.

The christian right will be providing us with entertainment for a long long time.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Zorlac on March 09, 2006, 08:52:14 pm
I didn't see much reaction from Fundies from GTA or the Sims...

...or any game really...

...I don't think they care.
I remember quite a bit of debate reguarding GTA from alot of people. There were even senators all over it...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 09, 2006, 09:01:12 pm
Well if they do try getting it off the market (for some reason) it dose not matter.As long as I get Spore before they do  ;).
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Ash on March 09, 2006, 09:05:10 pm
Oh well if worst comes to worst we might just have to kill everyone and anyone who gets in the way of playing spore.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: KICkMEdOOd1 on March 09, 2006, 09:54:23 pm
I bet you that when Spore comes out, there will be a huge controversy.... involving the christians. Especially the "hardcore" christians that burn anything that says the word "evolution" (Even though they really dont know the first thing about it, like most people, just assumptions). So I think that Spore will be all over the news, and there will be huge debates and tons of christians trying to get this game off the shelves, saying that "It teaches our kids about evolution!" or other things, but Im sure you know what kinds of things they will say.

*prepares to argue with lots of christians over the internet*
Thoughts?

Do we really have to go around insulting people like this?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 09, 2006, 09:56:08 pm
yes probably
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Zorlac on March 09, 2006, 09:57:04 pm
I bet you that when Spore comes out, there will be a huge controversy.... involving the christians. Especially the "hardcore" christians that burn anything that says the word "evolution" (Even though they really dont know the first thing about it, like most people, just assumptions). So I think that Spore will be all over the news, and there will be huge debates and tons of christians trying to get this game off the shelves, saying that "It teaches our kids about evolution!" or other things, but Im sure you know what kinds of things they will say.

*prepares to argue with lots of christians over the internet*
Thoughts?

Do we really have to go around insulting people like this?
Yeah, It's what we do. He's ready to argue!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: KICkMEdOOd1 on March 09, 2006, 09:59:31 pm
Please, don't insult what people believe in.

I'm Mormon, and I think that this game is just harmless fun.  Don't generalize.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 09, 2006, 10:00:39 pm
hmm...
reagan smaaaaash
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 09, 2006, 10:02:00 pm
Please, don't insult what people believe in.

I'm Mormon, and I think that this game is just harmless fun.  Don't generalize.

Well not everyone is the same.Also to tell the truth I'v never herd of these protests against evolution  ???.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 09, 2006, 10:07:26 pm
 :D thats fine, but... NEVER PUT INTELLEGENT DESIGN IN SCHOOOOL!!!
really, evoulution has lots of proof, ID does not. if theres no proof, there no school in its future
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Rutilant on March 09, 2006, 10:11:23 pm
I just thought of something.

Jesus creature means procedural jesus mating.  :o
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: smjjames on March 09, 2006, 10:13:38 pm
I just thought of something.

Jesus creature means procedural jesus mating.  :o

and unless the creator is twisted in the head, thats the exact reason why we won't see any spore Jesuses or spore Mohammads
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 09, 2006, 10:15:13 pm
I just thought of something.

Jesus creature means procedural jesus mating.  :o

and unless the creator is twisted in the head, thats the exact reason why we won't see any spore Jesuses or spore Mohammads

or maybe thats wy we will........
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Interitus on March 09, 2006, 10:46:17 pm
People said the same thing would happen with Black and White, it didn't as far as I know of, I doubt we'll see much other then a blip on the radar.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Lambsquirter on March 09, 2006, 11:16:24 pm
i'd love to see the jesus mating ritual...lol

if there really was a god, then why did he make mosquitoes, tapeworms, parasites and lawyers..(last two could be put together)
lol
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Zorlac on March 10, 2006, 12:50:26 am
i'd love to see the jesus mating ritual...lol

if there really was a god, then why did he make mosquitoes, tapeworms, parasites and lawyers..(last two could be put together)
lol
I hope anyone doesn't try to argue this.

But I do remember a movement trying to prevent the teaching of darwin evoloution theory in schools. I doubt there would be (formadible) anti-game campains but i can be sure that some kids won't be allowed to own the game becuase of their parents beliefs.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 10, 2006, 01:16:11 am
Well whatever happens it's highly unlikely to affect me. Thats one of the benefits of living in the most secular country in the world :D.

I too have often felt the urge to lash out at kids... I'm just so sad all the time ::)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LadyM on March 10, 2006, 08:33:38 am
We have had a religion discussion before on the forum and it managed to be discussed civilly with no flaming.  Please don't be offended by someone's views,  each person has an opinion and we have members of all religions and non religions here. Now carry on...  :)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 10, 2006, 09:53:46 am
Alright, first of all let me say that I am a Christian. I have studied Evolution (in all, or at least most of its myriad forms), Creation, Intelligent Design, Gap theory, and many other origin stories scientific, religious, and mythic, from numerous perspectives. It's kind of a hobby of mine. Of all the stories and theories and hypothesis and everything, I have decided that the literal 6 day creation roughly 6,000 years ago is the most likely. And that is why I am a Christian in fact, but that would be for another topic.

Evolution is, in my personal, surely biased opinion: ludicrous. Laughable. If people would just stop for a moment, set aside their desire to conform to one view or another, and just look at it honestly, it would become the laughing stock of the entire scientific community.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't make a good game. I intend to by Spore the day it comes out, assuming I don't pre-order it. I expect I'll love it. Why should I, as a Christian, be any more offended by a game featuring evolution than a game featuring sentient aliens, the existence of which is clearly unbiblical, or magic? There is nothing wrong with playing a game about Evolution. It's only when you start believing the theory that there is a problem, and I expect the game won't make someone who didn't believe in the theory, an Evolutionist. I can't see this game making one bit of difference in a person's religous beliefs. (Yes evolution is a relgion. Look up the definition, you'll see Evolution fits.)

You may now proceed to grab the flame throwers and napalms, and torch me and all that I own. Good day.

Oh and one more thing, if you wish to try to make me change my mind, I would really rather not have to endure a flood of messages from everyone on this board, so if you don't mind, let me believe what I will, and I'll try to refrain from mentioning my own beliefs. If anyone wants more information about why I believe as I do, PM me. But I really just want to enjoy my stay here, while discussing this game that promises to be the greatest Sim since, well, Sim City.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: mrodgers on March 10, 2006, 09:57:41 am
Evolution is, in my personal, surely biased opinion: ludicrous. Laughable. If people would just stop for a moment, set aside their desire to conform to one view or another, and just look at it honestly, it would become the laughing stock of the entire scientific community.

Please explain this comment.  I have seen tons of articles with all the holes in ID or the 6 day genesis (for instance the radioactive decay of uranium).  How can you say that a theory based on science is laughable?  It may or may not be true but it is based on physical fact as it stands today.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: EvoMan06 on March 10, 2006, 10:06:39 am
The six day creation is completely wrong. No offense. Honestly though, there is so much evidence against it. Evolution has withstood so many attacks.

Oh, and if evolution is so easily disproved please do so and win the nobel prize. After all, if it is obviously laughable then make some money.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 10, 2006, 11:44:59 am
I didn't want this to turn into a debate, so I'll try to keep this short.

mrodgers:  Radioactive decay of uranium huh? Yes the halflife of Uranium is quite long. The same could be said of star distances. In fact, I would say those two evidences are the ONLY two facts admissible as evidence that the Earth is older than mere thousands of years, or at best, millions of years. (Which still isn't evidence of Evolution) It does pose a problem for the Creationist theory. However, it poses an equally large problem for Evolution, if not more so. If the universe is really billions of years old, why is there any Uranium left? Not to mention myriads of other naturally occuring radioactive elements. Evolution has no answer. The best answer Creationists can provide is that God made it, with the other elements. Which on one hand is perfectly feasible. On the other, I hate the simplistic answer "God did it" just as much as you do. I admit, I have no good answer, but Evolutionists don't either.

EvoMan06: Tell me evidence. I can't respond well without some specific argument, such as mrodgers gave. The best I can do is a summary. Most evidence for Evolution, or against Creation, fall into one of 3 categories: 1. Logical fallacy, most likely created by the intense desire to prove Evolution true. 2 Hoax, see above comment. 3. Mistakes which in most cases have been proven wrong, but are still in the textbooks.

For example: Embryonic Recapitulation. Still taught in most US schools, was proven a hoax over a hundred years ago. The professor who came up with the theory, I forget his name right now but I can find it if you want, was convicted of fraud by his own university over the matter. Actual photographs of developing embryos further disprove this "evidence" Why is it still in the textbooks? I could sit many more examples, let me know of any specifics you'd like.

As to your last point, why don't you get rich yourself? If Creation is so laughable, make youself some money. Take Dr. Hovind's offer, go here: http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=67 for details. You see, it's not that simple.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Samog on March 10, 2006, 12:24:29 pm
Terribly sorry, but you just lost all of your credibility for citing Mr. Hovind.

Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 10, 2006, 12:25:16 pm
mrodgers:  Radioactive decay of uranium huh? Yes the halflife of Uranium is quite long. The same could be said of star distances. In fact, I would say those two evidences are the ONLY two facts admissible as evidence that the Earth is older than mere thousands of years, or at best, millions of years. (Which still isn't evidence of Evolution) It does pose a problem for the Creationist theory. However, it poses an equally large problem for Evolution, if not more so. If the universe is really billions of years old, why is there any Uranium left? Not to mention myriads of other naturally occuring radioactive elements. Evolution has no answer. The best answer Creationists can provide is that God made it, with the other elements. Which on one hand is perfectly feasible. On the other, I hate the simplistic answer "God did it" just as much as you do. I admit, I have no good answer, but Evolutionists don't either.

That would be because evolution does not seek to explain the existence of chemical elements but the process by which novel traits arise in populations and are passed on from generation to generation. Radioactive elements have nothing to do with that, and you should take care not to conflate the two in your arguments.

Quote
EvoMan06: Tell me evidence. I can't respond well without some specific argument, such as mrodgers gave. The best I can do is a summary. Most evidence for Evolution, or against Creation, fall into one of 3 categories: 1. Logical fallacy, most likely created by the intense desire to prove Evolution true. 2 Hoax, see above comment. 3. Mistakes which in most cases have been proven wrong, but are still in the textbooks.

You will note that the "intense desire to prove X true" holds in similar ways for the dogma of Young Earth creation. As such, in fairness we must amend that, aside from such categories as you have mentioned above, there is 4. Scientific data which as yet has not been proven false.

Similarly, we have to include a list of categories for arguments for creation, which I shall copy and paste from above: 1. Logical fallacy, most likely created by the intense desire to prove Evolution Creationism true. 2 Hoax, see above comment. 3. Mistakes which in most cases have been proven wrong, but are still in the textbooks. And 4. Scientific data which as yet has not been proven false.

Inclusiveness is only fair.

Quote
For example: Embryonic Recapitulation. Still taught in most US schools, was proven a hoax over a hundred years ago. The professor who came up with the theory, I forget his name right now but I can find it if you want, was convicted of fraud by his own university over the matter. Actual photographs of developing embryos further disprove this "evidence" Why is it still in the textbooks? I could sit many more examples, let me know of any specifics you'd like.

The argument you propose, I take it, is thus: "Recapitulation theory (first proposed by German zoologist Ernst Haeckel in 1866) was presented as supporting evidence for evolution, Haeckel's theory is wrong, therefore evolution has less support". This argument is not only an oversimplification but misleading because modern biology does recognize numerous connections between ontogeny and phylogeny, and explains them through evolutionary changes.

Generally, if a structure pre-dates another structure in evolutionary terms, then it also appears earlier than the other in the embryo. Species which have an evolutionary relationship typically share the early stages of embryonal development and differ in later stages. Such as the backbone, the common structure among all vertebrates such as fish, reptiles and mammals, appears as one of the earliest structures laid out in all vertebrate embryos, or the fact that the cerebrum in humans, being the most sophisticated part of the brain, develops last. Similarly, whales, which have evolved from land mammals, don't have legs, but tiny remnant leg bones lie buried deep in their bodies. During embryonal development, leg extremities first occur, then recede. Similarly, whale embryos (like all mammalian embryos) have hair at one stage, but lose most of it later.

The particular attraction of this Young Earth creationism that you seem to adhere to is somewhat of a mystery to me. As Galileo Galilei said, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Why put blinders on the divine by forcing it to act within the human notion of days, or make it adhere to the restrictions set down by mortal chroniclers?  :-\
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 10, 2006, 12:29:38 pm
this thread is about a possiblety that christians would be offended by spore but my grandmother is a hardcore christian i showed her and told her about spore and she didnt really care that much she just said "good game"
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 10, 2006, 12:39:16 pm
If anyone wants more information about why I believe as I do, PM me. But I really just want to enjoy my stay here, while discussing this game.

That is why I posted the above comment. I agree, this is going to be a great game, and I'll definitly play it. I would prefer it if we did not continue the above discussion, just because I've had similar discussion on 3 other forums and everyone ended inconclusively, or degenerated into a flame war between those who agreed with me and those who didn't, while not wishing to join I'd just abondon the now ruined thread. I'd rather that not happen again, so I think I'll just stop posting in this thread. If anyone wishes to continue this discussion with me, take it to PM, though I would prefer it if those seeking to convince me Evolution is true to not even bother, you are merely wasting my time and yours. If you wish to send me a link to a website with evidence, I promise to give it a look. I try not to be too closeminded :D, but I don't really want a debate. If you have any question about why I believe as I do, then PM me. Otherwise, I'll just drop the subject.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 10, 2006, 12:52:34 pm
awwwww, i just made a huge post about it...
If anyone wants more information about why I believe as I do, PM me. But I really just want to enjoy my stay here, while discussing this game.

That is why I posted the above comment. I agree, this is going to be a great game, and I'll definitly play it. I would prefer it if we did not continue the above discussion, just because I've had similar discussion on 3 other forums and everyone ended inconclusively, or degenerated into a flame war between those who agreed with me and those who didn't, while not wishing to join I'd just abondon the now ruined thread. I'd rather that not happen again, so I think I'll just stop posting in this thread. If anyone wishes to continue this discussion with me, take it to PM, though I would prefer it if those seeking to convince me Evolution is true to not even bother, you are merely wasting my time and yours. If you wish to send me a link to a website with evidence, I promise to give it a look. I try not to be too closeminded :D, but I don't really want a debate. If you have any question about why I believe as I do, then PM me. Otherwise, I'll just drop the subject.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 10, 2006, 12:56:01 pm
awwwww, i just made a huge post about it...
If anyone wants more information about why I believe as I do, PM me. But I really just want to enjoy my stay here, while discussing this game.

That is why I posted the above comment. I agree, this is going to be a great game, and I'll definitly play it. I would prefer it if we did not continue the above discussion, just because I've had similar discussion on 3 other forums and everyone ended inconclusively, or degenerated into a flame war between those who agreed with me and those who didn't, while not wishing to join I'd just abondon the now ruined thread. I'd rather that not happen again, so I think I'll just stop posting in this thread. If anyone wishes to continue this discussion with me, take it to PM, though I would prefer it if those seeking to convince me Evolution is true to not even bother, you are merely wasting my time and yours. If you wish to send me a link to a website with evidence, I promise to give it a look. I try not to be too closeminded :D, but I don't really want a debate. If you have any question about why I believe as I do, then PM me. Otherwise, I'll just drop the subject.

yes that is a good point, that back then they knew nothing, in my view its like finding "the lord of the rings" 100,000 years from now and saying its real.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 10, 2006, 01:01:05 pm
exactly, except that the bible was more fictiony than TLOTR to me with all the miracles.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: OmniOck on March 10, 2006, 01:02:35 pm
This is just one out of a couple hundred problems with said religoun.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: quizzle on March 10, 2006, 01:08:26 pm
The first thing I wanted to point out is that Spore favors ID more than Darwinian evolution.  In Spore mutations arent formed by accident but by you, generally with some purpose or direction.  No one is going to accidentally give their creature Huntington's.

For Shivore:
I don't care what you believe in, ID, Creationism, Evolution, whatever, but please check your facts.
1)  You can't prove one thing by disproving another.  If you want to argue Creationism then bring out evidence for it, not evidence against something else.  As far as I have seen, Occam's razor is really the only evidence Darwinian Evolution really has on ID, though that arguably goes both ways.

2)  "If the universe is really billions of years old, why is there any Uranium left? Not to mention myriads of other naturally occuring radioactive elements. Evolution has no answer. The best answer Creationists can provide is that God made it, with the other elements. Which on one hand is perfectly feasible. On the other, I hate the simplistic answer "God did it" just as much as you do. I admit, I have no good answer, but Evolutionists don't either."  Next time, check to see whether we have an answer or not.
     There are "myriads of other naturally occuring radioactive elements."  As a matter of fact, every element from Bismuth on up is unstable (and Technetium, but that one is special).  They exist because i) they were not all produced at the instant of the big bang, but are generally produced in super-novas, and ii) because their half-lives are all relatively long.  Uranium has a half-life of about 4.5 billion years.  That means that even if all Uranium was produced at the big bang (which it wasn't) about 13.5 billion years ago, then there would still be about 12.5% of the original Uranium remaining.  Elements like Plutonium and say Darmstadtlum decay far too quickly for there to be any measurable amounts of the elements remaining naturally.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Zuka on March 10, 2006, 01:18:32 pm
I bet you that when Spore comes out, there will be a huge controversy.... involving the christians. Especially the "hardcore" christians that burn anything that says the word "evolution" (Even though they really dont know the first thing about it, like most people, just assumptions). So I think that Spore will be all over the news, and there will be huge debates and tons of christians trying to get this game off the shelves, saying that "It teaches our kids about evolution!" or other things, but Im sure you know what kinds of things they will say.

*prepares to argue with lots of christians over the internet*
Thoughts?
Riiiiiiight.. how many Christians do you know? I'm Christian and I'm going to play the game. I do not beleive in evolution, but the game seems like fun. It seems to me that you are being sarcastic about Christians in general. :/
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Skraeling on March 10, 2006, 01:21:27 pm
why are there rocks that are 3.5 billion years old...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: carcajou on March 10, 2006, 01:27:59 pm
(...)  I have decided that the literal 6 day creation roughly 6,000 years ago is the most likely. And that is why I am a Christian in fact, but that would be for another topic. (...)

If that is the reason you are a Christian, well you might as well stop believing right now! People that were living before 6000 years ago were more open minded than many of us nowadays! Come on, how can this still be debated in 2006???? You speak as if you reject all human knowledge acquired throught the ages, and decide that something else is better because it fits what you want to hear?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 10, 2006, 01:29:11 pm
I'm just going to try to make both sides on this a bit more reasonable

This entire thread was created to help one group proclaim that the other is stupid.  Then they come in and say not to get offended.  This really doesn't seem fair, at least in my opinion.  Keep that in mind as you post

Also, this is not universally true, but most of the time, the burden of proof is being constantly shoveled over to the Christian side of the debate, in the name of fairness I would ask that each person provide proper arguments and not just cite evidence by name alone.  This goes for both sides.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SL on March 10, 2006, 01:53:59 pm
[Ack! A bunch of people posted while I was typing this. Oh well!]

EvoMan06: Tell me evidence. I can't respond well without some specific argument, such as mrodgers gave. The best I can do is a summary. Most evidence for Evolution, or against Creation, fall into one of 3 categories: 1. Logical fallacy, most likely created by the intense desire to prove Evolution true. 2 Hoax, see above comment. 3. Mistakes which in most cases have been proven wrong, but are still in the textbooks.

I'll oblige you.

If the universe is really billions of years old, why is there any Uranium left? Not to mention myriads of other naturally occuring radioactive elements. Evolution has no answer.
Of course evolution has no answer - you have to look to astrophysics for the answer. Uranium did not exist at the beginning of the universe, nor did carbon, iron, etc. Everything heavier than hydrogen is produced by nuclear fusion in stars. Young stars mainly fuse hydrogen to helium, but as they age and begin to run out of hydrogen, their fusion processes die down and the star's core begins to contract (while the outside expands). But, as it contracts, pressure and temperature increase in the core until they are high enough to begin fusing helium. The collapse stops. However, this only buys the star a temporary reprieve from its inevitable fate. Eventually, the star will run out of helium to fuse. In medium-size stars (like our sun), the outer layers will be blown off by the star's powerful solar wind, and the core will collapse until it is halted by electron degeneracy pressure. You now have a white dwarf, a small star with a core of carbon undergoing little or no fusion.

But that is not where uranium comes from. Stars that are large enough don't undergo anything so peaceful as the transformation to a white dwarves. Instead, the pressure at their cores is strong enough to raise the temperature high enough to fuse carbon! And onward we go, until we have fused silicon into iron, and then the star reaches a problem. Up until this point, each element it fused has released energy as a result, but the energy released has decreased steadily - hydrogen produces more than helium, helium more than carbon, and so on. Iron is as far as it can go, since fusing iron does not release additional energy. You COULD keep fusing heavier and heavier particles, but you would lose energy - but in fact that is just what happens. Fusion isn't producing enough energy to keep the star from collapsing anymore, but as it collapses, it reaches extraordinary temperatures, and moments later it explodes in a spectacular supernova. The origin of the heaviest elements, such as uranium, lies in supernovae, which not only reach temperatures high enough to fuse elements into the heavier ones despite losing energy in the process, but also explode to throw much of the newly created elements out into space. (The star's core, on the other hand, continues collapsing until it either becomes a neutron star, or a black hole).

Over the long millenia since the supernova, these elements expand out into the interstellar medium, and new star systems form containing these rarer elements.

White dwarves can also go supernova if they accrete (steal) enough mass from another star in their solar system.

The best answer Creationists can provide is that God made it, with the other elements. Which on one hand is perfectly feasible. On the other, I hate the simplistic answer "God did it" just as much as you do. I admit, I have no good answer, but Evolutionists don't either.
Now you know the scientific answer to where uranium comes from. (I wouldn't be surprised if most evolutionists aren't terribly concerned with where the elements came from, as evolution is only one scientific theory among many, whereas intelligent design purports to replace astrophysics, evolution, geology, etc.)
P.S. "scientific theory" does not include theories like "Oh I bet UFOs abducted the people who vanished in the bermuda triangle!" - Scientific theories have a much higher standard of proof than "theories" such as that. Really the meaning of the word "theory" is completely different in a scientific context. It's more like "theory-that-has-a-lot-of-evidence-and-generally-doesn't-have-contradicting-evidence."
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 10, 2006, 02:21:53 pm
Well you might now thing evolution is not real,but what about Jesus?Was he not meant to come back to earth in the year 2000AD?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 10, 2006, 02:25:15 pm
Yes but by my reconing he would only be 6  :P

OH I see what your saying.So he might already be here,but hes just a whining Little brat right now  :D.Wekll that makes alot more sences  ;).
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on March 10, 2006, 02:47:04 pm
Well im little pissed

You see not only am I a Christian but im also rightwing.

Now you have seen my utter anticipation for Spore so that will help me in my argument that just because your Christian or religious means that you cant believe in evolution.

I have read Genesis and understand that, oh no, the bible says the Earth was created in six days. omg. how could this possibly be? And what about dinosaurs? Well ive decided on my own theory.

I believe that God created the universe with a predetermined plan of generally how things would go. I have more plot to this but I dont feel like boring you about my silly little thing called religion (dun dun daaaa) which only 80% of the world practices:http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html, but Ill go on with leaving some fluff out. I believe that the universe is 13 or so billion years old. I dont belive that Adam and Eve were real people I believe that they are metaphors for non-sentient life taking the apple of knowledge (becoming sentient) and loosing the animal innocence and ignorance they had. I beleive much of the Bible is symbolic. You have to remember that to understand a term like star clusters you first have to know what a star really is. So the people of those times could not have comprehened the vastness of the universe or how it was 3D when they still beleived Earth was flat. The Bible, while true, is put into simpler and easily understandable terms. You have to think of me as believing almost every new scientific theory but also believing that I have a purpose in life and that the universe is not a bleak plane of existence where every thing is utterly random and our purpose is to eat sleep and do it.

 :)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Samog on March 10, 2006, 03:24:26 pm
I bet you that when Spore comes out, there will be a huge controversy.... involving the christians. Especially the "hardcore" christians that burn anything that says the word "evolution" (Even though they really dont know the first thing about it, like most people, just assumptions). So I think that Spore will be all over the news, and there will be huge debates and tons of christians trying to get this game off the shelves, saying that "It teaches our kids about evolution!" or other things, but Im sure you know what kinds of things they will say.

*prepares to argue with lots of christians over the internet*
Thoughts?
Riiiiiiight.. how many Christians do you know? I'm Christian and I'm going to play the game. I do not beleive in evolution, but the game seems like fun. It seems to me that you are being sarcastic about Christians in general. :/
This may come as a shock to you, but not every Christian is like you. I know some people (who are, unfortunately for the rest of us, in the majority) who would happily injure you for not flaming Muggerman (obviously, I haven't told them much about myself).
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on March 10, 2006, 03:30:01 pm
Yes and I will tell you that atheists are simply set on destroying tradition and other peoples truths and turning the world into a bleak nothingness.

I know a bunch of atheists like that so I guess im right
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gaming Leo on March 10, 2006, 03:32:34 pm
There aren't humans in this though, and if there are they would be custom created.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 10, 2006, 03:42:30 pm
The first thing I wanted to point out is that Spore favors ID more than Darwinian evolution.  In Spore mutations arent formed by accident but by you, generally with some purpose or direction.  No one is going to accidentally give their creature Huntington's.

For Shivore:
I don't care what you believe in, ID, Creationism, Evolution, whatever, but please check your facts.
1)  You can't prove one thing by disproving another.  If you want to argue Creationism then bring out evidence for it, not evidence against something else.  As far as I have seen, Occam's razor is really the only evidence Darwinian Evolution really has on ID, though that arguably goes both ways.

2)  "If the universe is really billions of years old, why is there any Uranium left? Not to mention myriads of other naturally occuring radioactive elements. Evolution has no answer. The best answer Creationists can provide is that God made it, with the other elements. Which on one hand is perfectly feasible. On the other, I hate the simplistic answer "God did it" just as much as you do. I admit, I have no good answer, but Evolutionists don't either."  Next time, check to see whether we have an answer or not.
     There are "myriads of other naturally occuring radioactive elements."  As a matter of fact, every element from Bismuth on up is unstable (and Technetium, but that one is special).  They exist because i) they were not all produced at the instant of the big bang, but are generally produced in super-novas, and ii) because their half-lives are all relatively long.  Uranium has a half-life of about 4.5 billion years.  That means that even if all Uranium was produced at the big bang (which it wasn't) about 13.5 billion years ago, then there would still be about 12.5% of the original Uranium remaining.  Elements like Plutonium and say Darmstadtlum decay far too quickly for there to be any measurable amounts of the elements remaining naturally.

Guess what radioactive decay does? When elements decay they dont dissapear, they just turn into more stable elements. There are heavier elements than Uranium and there probably were Billions (yes I said billions) of years ago when the universe was cooling that have since decayed into Uranium.
Oh, and I'll just reitterate the fact that evolution is a biological theory dealing with the gradual adaptation of life to its surroundings over generations... if you want to debate how the world began, talk to a geologist or astrophysicist.
And PLEASE stop using the term 'Evolutionist'. Evolution is not a religion.
Do you call people who believe in Newtonian principals of gravity 'Gravitationists' or 'Newtonians'?
Something which has really bugged me in this whole ID thing is that first the religious establishment accuse science of being a religion, then they get upset because their religion isnt accepted as science.

I disagree with your occam's razor comment. The idea that God created everything is by no means the simplest explanation... because that explantaion in turn requires an explanation for the origin of God. Since there can be no such explanation then the whole thing is rendered pointless, applying a scientific method to an inherantly unscientific concept serves no purpose.

As a final point I would like to ask: Why exactly do you find the theory of evolution absurd? Unless you actually cite the fact that it contradicts genesis (in which case there really is no hope) I would bet its because you dont actually understand it. I would be quite interested if you were to post or PM what YOU believe the mechanism and principal of evolution is.

 
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on March 10, 2006, 03:45:36 pm
Well i dont see why people cant beleive in evolution. But that doesnt mean that God cant be real.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 10, 2006, 03:50:47 pm
Yes and I will tell you that atheists are simply set on destroying tradition and other peoples truths and turning the world into a bleak nothingness.

I know a bunch of atheists like that so I guess im right
Thats a ridiculously unfair generalisation. I'm an atheist and I'm certainly not set on destroying anything. What I dont have any tolerance for is people who blindly hold onto the beliefs of the ignorant people who lived thousands of years ago.
I actually have more respect for people who believe in ghosts than people who believe in young earth... at least ghosts are impossible to disprove (albeit in the same way its impossible to disprove the exsitence of invisible donuts or anything else like that :P).
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on March 10, 2006, 03:52:05 pm
Sam I was just saying that you cant generalize a religion especially one with such wide range of beliefs like Christianity.

plus from reading my posts you'll see I dont hold to anyhting blindly
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 10, 2006, 03:58:49 pm
I wasnt addressing the blindly comment at you ;)

And I respect your beliefs about the universe and so forth... I dont personally believe the Bible is even symbolically correct (since it was written by normal people, thousands of years ago. If they really received divine insperation then how come no-one gets it any more?) but since its totally impossible to prove you incorrect theres no point arguing.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on March 10, 2006, 04:01:56 pm
Well....... I beleive in life like this:

We are a civilization. One of the billions of sentient life forms in the galaxy that he has to moniter. And if God keeps on having to use cheat codes to help us out for our every little bitch, what kind of pathetic little race are we ;)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 10, 2006, 04:09:01 pm
Well....... I beleive in life like this:

We are a civilization. One of the billions of sentient life forms in the galaxy that he has to moniter. And if God keeps on having to use cheat codes to help us out for our every little bitch, what kind of pathetic little race are we ;)
Now thats the kind of God I wouldnt be ashamed to believe in. Good to see that fundementalism isnt taking too much of a hold on our society :)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on March 10, 2006, 04:16:34 pm
Well im glad fundamentalism isnt "taking over" but i like my christian beleifs I like to beleive that there is magic in the world.

To sum up which way I want the world to go: Id rather see LOTR over StarWars any day
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Oviraptor on March 10, 2006, 04:17:24 pm
Well im glad fundamentalism isnt "taking over" but i like my christian beleifs I like to beleive that there is magic in the world.

To sum up which way I want the world to go: Id rather see LOTR over StarWars any day

But lightsabers are so dang cool...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 10, 2006, 04:18:38 pm
Well you might now thing evolution is not real,but what about Jesus?Was he not meant to come back to earth in the year 2000AD?

well, im srry fer being slightly off topic but, my parants religion, bahai, beleives that he already has, as bahaulla,(srry, spelling, really hard name)he was a profit in the, oh, say 1800s-1900. google it if you want. bahais are not allowed to force their veiws on anyone.
(BTW, i dont know much, im atheiest and its my parents religion
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on March 10, 2006, 04:19:12 pm
To oviraptor-
Not as cool as an invincible demi god with awesome full black plate armor and a huge steel mace. ;D

To AName-
So your not Bahai.

Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 10, 2006, 04:22:09 pm
oops
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 10, 2006, 04:22:41 pm

To oviraptor-
Not as cool as an invincible demi god with awesome full black plate armor and a huge steel mace. ;D


But isnt he inherantly evil and rather an unsavoury character?

To sum up: Futuistic= good. Archaeic= not as good (although Indiana Jones makes a persuasive point

This topic is losing cohearance... Id better stir things up... Jesus was an Englishman.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on March 10, 2006, 04:23:33 pm
quick question what do the stars above your avatar mean?

Yeh but if you read the Silmarillion youd understand that he has sort of a sad history being first a spirit for goood but being corrupted by Morgoth, my namesake.

Also I find most sci-fi material bleak, not that I dont like StarWars, but its the same with atheism.

I was agnostic once, but then I started reading the Lord Of The Rings and I became more faithful (but not Blinder)
So I pay Tolkein respect. I just want the world to not have to deal with Communism or bleak science. If I could do one thing it would be to install magic into our lives. It would be so awesome
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Oviraptor on March 10, 2006, 04:24:22 pm
quick question what do the stars above your avatar mean?

Look here:

http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=1546.0
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Kaze on March 10, 2006, 04:25:32 pm
quick question what do the stars above your avatar mean?
http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=1546.0
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Oviraptor on March 10, 2006, 04:27:16 pm
quick question what do the stars above your avatar mean?
http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=1546.0

:D 70 seconds too late! Should of known I'd be on top of that one, it is my thread after all. ;)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Kaze on March 10, 2006, 04:30:59 pm
quick question what do the stars above your avatar mean?
http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=1546.0

:D 70 seconds too late! Should of known I'd be on top of that one, it is my thread after all. ;)

I'll get you next time *shakes fist*
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on March 10, 2006, 04:41:51 pm
Oviraptor.

Im just wondering how you came to be a moderator for this forum?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Oviraptor on March 10, 2006, 04:53:03 pm
Oviraptor.

Im just wondering how you came to be a moderator for this forum?

Steve asked, I accepted. That's pretty much it.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Legerdemain on March 10, 2006, 05:56:07 pm
I'm a Christian. If I went on and detailed what exactly I believe, you'd all jump at me and call me a fundamentalist.

That said, I'll play Spore and I'll have fun with the whole game. Key word 'game', which could be defined very generally as 'separate from reality'.

Some people have trouble with that distinction. If they carry on about this game, I'll watch and maybe chuckle.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on March 10, 2006, 06:07:47 pm
Good Spirit.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: quizzle on March 10, 2006, 06:48:33 pm

Guess what radioactive decay does? When elements decay they dont dissapear, they just turn into more stable elements. There are heavier elements than Uranium and there probably were Billions (yes I said billions) of years ago when the universe was cooling that have since decayed into Uranium.
Oh, and I'll just reitterate the fact that evolution is a biological theory dealing with the gradual adaptation of life to its surroundings over generations... if you want to debate how the world began, talk to a geologist or astrophysicist.
And PLEASE stop using the term 'Evolutionist'. Evolution is not a religion.
Do you call people who believe in Newtonian principals of gravity 'Gravitationists' or 'Newtonians'?
Something which has really bugged me in this whole ID thing is that first the religious establishment accuse science of being a religion, then they get upset because their religion isnt accepted as science.

I disagree with your occam's razor comment. The idea that God created everything is by no means the simplest explanation... because that explantaion in turn requires an explanation for the origin of God. Since there can be no such explanation then the whole thing is rendered pointless, applying a scientific method to an inherantly unscientific concept serves no purpose.

As a final point I would like to ask: Why exactly do you find the theory of evolution absurd? Unless you actually cite the fact that it contradicts genesis (in which case there really is no hope) I would bet its because you dont actually understand it. I would be quite interested if you were to post or PM what YOU believe the mechanism and principal of evolution is.

 

I agree with everything you said there.  In fact, thats basically what my post was about, so thanks for... agreeing?
PS I never said that evolution was absurd.

Oh, and Newtonian is a word, and yes it does mean that.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: lebensjager on March 10, 2006, 06:53:43 pm
Some Christians I have talked to said the opposite, that this game actually supports intelligent design, because a higher being (A.K.A you) designs the creature.

  Well first it's amazing to see how every single Christian has been labeled and packaged into this 'fundie' group, but I personally don't usually mix games and religion for the most part. That being said, for Spore I suppose I would agree with the above thought process concerning the game.

Spore is a game not a political statement, and I don't think most Christians (I) or anyone else intelligent enough to realize that evolution remains a 'theory' not fact will care about this game in the realm of politics. Other games such as 'Black and White' didn't even cause a ripple, so I have no reason to think this one will either. A game is just that ... a game. Hopefully it will be treated as such.

    Man....been a few hours since I've watched the game footage again, better go watch. Can't wait for this game.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 11, 2006, 01:52:00 am
Just for a solid point for argument to cling to, how about we define a game as an interactive system with endogenous meaning which causes a player to struggle against conflicting elements towards a perceived or created goal.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 11, 2006, 02:43:57 am
Some Christians I have talked to said the opposite, that this game actually supports intelligent design, because a higher being (A.K.A you) designs the creature.

  Well first it's amazing to see how every single Christian has been labeled and packaged into this 'fundie' group, but I personally don't usually mix games and religion for the most part. That being said, for Spore I suppose I would agree with the above thought process concerning the game.

Spore is a game not a political statement, and I don't think most Christians (I) or anyone else intelligent enough to realize that evolution remains a 'theory' not fact will care about this game in the realm of politics. Other games such as 'Black and White' didn't even cause a ripple, so I have no reason to think this one will either. A game is just that ... a game. Hopefully it will be treated as such.

    Man....been a few hours since I've watched the game footage again, better go watch. Can't wait for this game.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

Please look at the scientific definition of Theory before you jump on the 'just a theory bandwagon'.
What you would like to say is that Evolution is 'just conjecture'... which is untrue.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Anou Mawi on March 11, 2006, 06:44:18 am
I am a Christian and this is what I think.
Evolution is possible with divine intervention but not needed.
There is proof for and against so it is not a fact based on the definition "Something that can be proved to be correct or incorrect"
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: MorgothTheEnemy on March 11, 2006, 08:46:11 am
Right I just think that God and the universe are sort of Symbiotes. Meaning that if the beginning of  the universe is the beginning of time then God would have therefore existed forever. He might have even been here for multiple creations of this universe. I think that God is both within and without the universe so he may manipulate it. But God, whether he cant or just doesnt want to, has the universe still randomly do things. Thus it is the major things God forsees and his tactics are mostly subtle. So I believe that evolution is just an easier means for Gods ends. Because evolution is just a slow process of mutations accuring in an animal that help it so therefore it has a better chance of living and therefore mating so it passes on its genes. I think.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SL on March 11, 2006, 09:34:10 am
I am a Christian and this is what I think.
Evolution is possible with divine intervention but not needed.
There is proof for and against so it is not a fact based on the definition "Something that can be proved to be correct or incorrect"

Proving a scientific theory false is quite possible, but you can never really prove one true. You can only prove that nobody has yet discovered anything that disproves it. Also, scientific theories do not eventually become "laws." The theory of gravity is still "the theory of gravity," not "the law of gravity."
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Spriggand on March 11, 2006, 10:25:39 am
My opinon: it's a game. I don't have to change my life to accomodate it, just as I didn't have to change my views on murder when I played GTA. I don't like the popular misconception that religion is the denial of science and logic, but if I can't change people's minds, I won't force the issue.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 11, 2006, 10:30:00 am
I know some christians who do believe the evolution theory is true, but they say God created life.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Fade2gray on March 11, 2006, 11:09:15 am
I know some christians who do believe the evolution theory is true, but they say God created life.

Present and acounted for!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Greg16 on March 11, 2006, 11:15:13 am
I know some christians who do believe the evolution theory is true, but they say God created life.

I agree with this.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 11, 2006, 11:23:20 am
I know some Christians who do believe the evolution theory is true, but they say God created life.

Are you talking about people who believe in intelligent design? ( also known as creationism in a new form)
I'm sure this will cause a number people on the forum to hate me.........but what the hey!
P.S. I'm sure believers in intelligent design will love this game as it is basically what their theory is all about, some higher being guiding the evolution of a species.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 11, 2006, 12:04:04 pm
To answer some misconceptions. The decay of Uranium isn't the only method of dating the Universe, they can measure the decay of many other longer and shorter lived things. Also the decay of radioactive elements and the size of the universe aren't the only things that challenge the 6 day creation thing. Before they started measuring radioactive elements there was another study that seriously challanged the classical creation myth, and that was geology. There is absolutely no way we could see the geological structures we see now (the sedimentary layers for one) without invoking millions of years. For the longest time that was the biggest challenge to the creation myth.
Also the reason why there is still uranium, well for one its still being created in supernova (which is how everything above iron was created, the burning of the star itself is enough to produce everything up to and including iron).

I don't mind that your going to have a different belief than me, just don't call it ludicrous without the facts.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 11, 2006, 12:04:44 pm
I know some Christians who do believe the evolution theory is true, but they say God created life.

Are you talking about people who believe in intelligent design? ( also known as creationism in a new form)
I'm sure this will cause a number people on the forum to hate me.........but what the hey!
P.S. I'm sure believers in intelligent design will love this game as it is basically what their theory is all about, some higher being guiding the evolution of a species.


Meh I dont realy care.I mean the only God in this game will be me  ;).So realy there is a god.......us.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Superminime on March 11, 2006, 12:10:20 pm
Haven't been around lately to read this whole thread, so I'll just post my thoughts on the subject:

As a religious person myself I can pretty much say that I don't agree with the theory of evolution.  However, that has never stopped me from enjoying any game like this.  It's just stupid.  It's a game.  Get over it, honestly.  The game isn't telling you that you have to believe in evolution or that you have to change your beliefs in any way to play it and have fun.  I for one can tell the difference between reality and fantasy and can appreciate the creativity of this, and many other games.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 11, 2006, 12:16:53 pm
sorry, if it looks like I'm being to serious, but I was making the point that creationists and those who believe in intelligent design will jump on the slightest thing which questions evolution, but will willfully ignore the mounds of evidence, however each persons faith is there own so I shall leave it at that :)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 11, 2006, 12:26:02 pm
I have never seen mounds of evidence,unless you ment the mounds of evidence with it .
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 11, 2006, 12:46:21 pm
what I meant was the fossil record, radioactive dating of the earth, traceable genetic histories of specific species (common ancestors) and modern examples of natural selection, and the nature of hereditary, is that what you meant or did I just screw up the spelling?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 11, 2006, 12:55:21 pm
what I meant was the fossil record, radioactive dating of the earth, traceable genetic histories of specific species (common ancestors) and modern examples of natural selection, and the nature of hereditary, is that what you meant or did I just screw up the spelling?

So I take you meant the mounds of evidence with EVO?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 11, 2006, 12:55:58 pm
oops yeah, sorry
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 11, 2006, 01:30:00 pm
while we're on the subject of evolution, could someone find me the leading theories for the evolution of the various forms of reproduction?  I'm kinda busy today.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 11, 2006, 02:33:46 pm
easy go on wikipedia and type in evolution
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 11, 2006, 03:00:51 pm
the only times reproduction is mentioned in that article do not in any way answer my question.  I'm not asking how reproduction factors into evolution, I'm asking how the systems came to evolve.  Especially in sexual reproduction which would require two separate biological systems in two versions of the same species to progress in a manner that allows reproduction at every step and that at no point does one become unable to work with the other.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 11, 2006, 03:15:45 pm
hmm good point
The theory is, as far as i know (having done a couple of evolution orientated modules at uni I do know a fair bit) the egg and the sperm are the two different necessities of form when creating offspring, you need as many copies of your genes as possible, and you also need to invest enough nutrients/energy so that the developing offspring will survive. rather than have similar size and similar amounts of both gametes. sperm became smaller but more numerous, eggs became larger, and because of the cost invested in them became less numerous
Clear it up?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Muggerman on March 11, 2006, 06:21:02 pm
I bet you that when Spore comes out, there will be a huge controversy.... involving the christians. Especially the "hardcore" christians that burn anything that says the word "evolution" (Even though they really dont know the first thing about it, like most people, just assumptions). So I think that Spore will be all over the news, and there will be huge debates and tons of christians trying to get this game off the shelves, saying that "It teaches our kids about evolution!" or other things, but Im sure you know what kinds of things they will say.

*prepares to argue with lots of christians over the internet*
Thoughts?
Riiiiiiight.. how many Christians do you know? I'm Christian and I'm going to play the game. I do not beleive in evolution, but the game seems like fun. It seems to me that you are being sarcastic about Christians in general. :/
well seeing as I live in a CONTINENT where the main religion is various forms of christianity, id say I know alot of christians. And BTW, believing in god doesnt make you christian, nor does believing in heaven and hell. And also, im talking more about the extremists.


Wow I never expected this thread to get so many replies!

PS: Oh and BTW, check out here: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_toc_01 for what evelution is really about. I would give some quotes but im limited in time at the moment.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 11, 2006, 06:43:05 pm
chicken, while that handles one part, it does not really handle the whole deal here.  you need a delivery and receive system, you also need a system capable of reproducing very early on and the means to generate the lowest level device (sperm and egg) so while you have a nice piece on the size/numbers tradeoff, it doesn't really answer my question.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 11, 2006, 07:40:37 pm
chicken? your where abouts in Britain are you from?I'm sorry but it is really hard to explain it in a forum, also while I'm pretty confident with the theory, I'm rubbish at explaining it, sorry

Also to muggerman, which continent is that? there are at least three continents where Christianity is the major religion, I'm from Britain which is mostly Cristian and even we still get these nutters who go completely monkey poo (I'm not sure if swearing is allowed) whenever anything they deem inappropriate is released, and I'm not just talking about harry potter books here.....
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Lambsquirter on March 11, 2006, 08:51:39 pm
if there was a god, then why are there other religions practiced, such as buddahism and such.
And why are there many other races, black, asian if god only made adam and eve white, and noah who then repopulated the earth with his kiddies.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Bios Revision on March 11, 2006, 09:17:07 pm
I'd like to point out that Intelligent Design is opposed to evolution. Its basically creationism using scientific language.
The idea that God used evolution to create current forms of life is known as Theistic Evolution and is totally different from ID.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Muggerman on March 11, 2006, 11:01:51 pm
chicken? your where abouts in Britain are you from?I'm sorry but it is really hard to explain it in a forum, also while I'm pretty confident with the theory, I'm rubbish at explaining it, sorry

Also to muggerman, which continent is that? there are at least three continents where Christianity is the major religion, I'm from Britain which is mostly Cristian and even we still get these nutters who go completely monkey poo (I'm not sure if swearing is allowed) whenever anything they deem inappropriate is released, and I'm not just talking about harry potter books here.....
North america.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 11, 2006, 11:22:53 pm
Werrechicken, I was merely using a shortened version of you name, didn't mean to insult you. 

Still, whether or not you can explain the theory well, it doesn't really approach anything but a small part of my question.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Golgrig on March 12, 2006, 12:38:59 am
we are able to reproduce sexually because it works, as with all traits of an organism, somewhere somehow it was useful or didn't outright kill you

and for how it came about i suspect its a modification of existing traits for asexual reproduction by budding, parisitism,and simple cellular reproduction, all the processes going on are observable in various simple organisms

also for the win the whole evolution argument is a joke played on generations of belivers by the priestly class which dislikes competition: evolution is only the observation that things with traits which allow them to survive and procreate tend to make more of themselves, conflicting idea no, truth yes.

personaly if i believed in god i'd have to say that any god who depends on miricles alone didnt build it [the universe] right the first time. 
My god's so powerful he made the universe with the ability for life to form already written in!
he didn't stop with one universe he made all of them
he couldn't decide what to do so he did it all
he's so powerful that all he said was "let there be life" and there was, no tedious design process needed
my god works in the most mysterious way, he made the universe work for itself.
god doesn't play dice he rolls every thing all at once

if you want to see "made by god" study physics
if you want to see "exists because it could" study biology
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 12, 2006, 12:44:59 am
DAMN this is still going?BAH I bet god is just some kid playing Spore.And from time to time he abducts some people once and a while  :D.Thats what I think  :P.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Cobra on March 12, 2006, 12:55:35 am
if there was a god, then why are there other religions practiced, such as buddahism and such.
And why are there many other races, black, asian if god only made adam and eve white, and noah who then repopulated the earth with his kiddies.

I considar my self an atheist but from what i understand the story of where different colours skinned people came from is in a nutshell one day after the floods Noah got drunk from the wine in his Vineyard and passed out naked in his tent one of his sons found him and went blabbed to his brothers about what happened another son shielding his eyes covered up noah. When Noah woke up he thanked the son that covered his shame and cursed the one that blabbed he proclaimed that for his wrong doing him and all his decendents were destined to be slaves to serves other and there skin will be much Darker to show it.

Hence slavery of Black people (personally I think its a load of crap but thats the way I've heard the story  although I have condensed it a bit.)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 12, 2006, 01:56:45 am
Also to muggerman, which continent is that? there are at least three continents where Christianity is the major religion, I'm from Britain which is mostly Cristian and even we still get these nutters who go completely monkey poo (I'm not sure if swearing is allowed) whenever anything they deem inappropriate is released, and I'm not just talking about harry potter books here.....

It may surprise you to know that England is the most secular country in the WORLD... it honestly doesnt see that way though.

I also agree with Golgrig, if I were to start believing in God for some reason then that would be the only kind of God I would believe in.

Except: I dont believe any being can be omnipotent or omnicognicient, and that explanation STILL doesnt tell anyone where God came from or how it was created.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 05:41:18 am
To be honest I kinda like intelegent design people,,,  I'm a complete and utter 4th generation athiest, and when I hear that cristians have invented a new form of religion to try and get more souls i give a little giggle, its all about marketing.

you got some cristians that are seeing evolution as being very plausable , so the church seys, NOOOOO wait um, god can use evolution too , please come back to church.
$-cha ching-$

if humans diddnt beleive in any gods the world would keep spinning, the sky wouldnt fall down and we'd all be better off.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 12, 2006, 05:46:06 am
To be honest I kinda like intelegent design people,,, I'm a complete and utter 4th generation athiest, and when I hear that cristians have invented a new form of religion to try and get more souls i give a little giggle, its all about marketing.

you got some cristians that are seeing evolution as being very plausable , so the church seys, NOOOOO wait um, god can use evolution too , please come back to church.
$-cha ching-$

if humans diddnt beleive in any gods the world would keep spinning, the sky wouldnt fall down and we'd all be better off.

Amen.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 12, 2006, 08:10:17 am
I think now would be a good time to tell Aesop's very last story... before he was thrown over a cliff by angry priests.

Long ago people didnt worship gods, they worshipped idols. Statues and shrines and special rocks. One particular man is given an idol by his father on his deathbed (the father's deathbed, not the sons), with the instruction that if he prays to the idol every day then he will become prosperous and sucessful.
The man dutifully prays to the idol every day and (surprise surprise) has dreadful luck, everything he touches turns to crap. Eventually he flies into a rage and smashes the idol on the ground, cursing it and his father. The idol breaks into fragments and from inside comes a shower of gold coins. The man never goes hungry again.
The moral is: Religion is a scam invented by priests to make money. <(not my opinion, please do not flame)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 08:15:40 am
Werrechicken, I was merely using a shortened version of you name, didn't mean to insult you. 

Still, whether or not you can explain the theory well, it doesn't really approach anything but a small part of my question.

no, its just that I'm from the UK and some people say chicken like people in America might say dude
sorry I couldn't be much help with your evo question though
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 08:23:36 am

It may surprise you to know that England is the most secular country in the WORLD... it honestly doesn't see that way though.


Many European countries are secular, for example the French have introduced a law banning all personnel religious items/clothing from public schools, due to the fact that they believe that church and state should be separate. The point I was trying to make is that even in a place like the UK, there are still religious extremists of the worst kind.
Anyway why doesn't it seem that way?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 12, 2006, 09:03:36 am
well for a start a really senior person of the government (I forget her name) is a member of Opus Dei.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 12, 2006, 09:09:32 am
well for a start a really senior person of the government (I forget her name) is a member of Opus Dei.
Isn't Opus Dei a really extreme group of Christians (correct me if I am wrong)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 09:13:20 am
well for a start a really senior person of the government (I forget her name) is a member of Opus Dei.

fair point, Its Ruth Kelly Secretary of State for Education and Skills by the way, and while she is a member of opus dei, it has to be said that she usually keeps her religious beliefs out of her work (unlike Tony Blair who is now saying god guided him to war With Iraq), Incidentally Ruth Kelly was recently at the heart of a major scandal which involved people with police cautions for looking a pedophilic material on the internet working in schools.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Spore2DaMax on March 12, 2006, 09:31:53 am
 OMG Ruth Kelly is a member of opus dei? :o No wonder education in this country is going down the pan with a psycho like her in charge..no offense to any opus dei members  ::)

 Anyway...back on topic....theres nothing any religious faction can do to stop the release of Spore, on the grounds of being naughty and teaching the evil theory of evolution.  :P
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 10:36:51 am
OMG Ruth Kelly is a member of opus dei? :o No wonder education in this country is going down the pan with a psycho like her in charge..no offense to any opus dei members  ::)


No, educations going down the pan, because the government is closing down grammer schools, I never went to one myself, but I damn well wish I had! The number of idiots and drop-outs who where in my classes was amazing, if I had been at a grammer school, it seems very unlikely that most of those people would have gotten in.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 12, 2006, 10:52:11 am
if there was a god, then why are there other religions practiced, such as buddahism and such.
And why are there many other races, black, asian if god only made adam and eve white, and noah who then repopulated the earth with his kiddies.

I considar my self an atheist but from what i understand the story of where different colours skinned people came from is in a nutshell one day after the floods Noah got drunk from the wine in his Vineyard and passed out naked in his tent one of his sons found him and went blabbed to his brothers about what happened another son shielding his eyes covered up noah. When Noah woke up he thanked the son that covered his shame and cursed the one that blabbed he proclaimed that for his wrong doing him and all his decendents were destined to be slaves to serves other and there skin will be much Darker to show it.

Hence slavery of Black people (personally I think its a load of crap but thats the way I've heard the story  although I have condensed it a bit.)

I know I said I wouldn't post in this thread again but... this isn't technically about Evolution as much as it is avoiding the improper labeling of Christians as inherently racist. The above is almost certainly not true, God doesn't condone slavery, and before some smart-aleck starts pulling out the Old Testament laws regarding slavery, you should notice that the slavery described there isn't really want we would call slavery, but more like servants. Like chauffers and butlers and maids today.

I think the races came from Micro-Evolution. I object to that term, but it's what scientists use, so I'll use it. Micro-Evolution is why we have so many breeds of dogs, cats, pigeons, flys, and everything else. I believe all dogs, and probably coyotes and wolves and other canines had a common ancestor: a dog. Does that mean enerything came from one single-celled organism billions of years ago? No. Does that mean that ASians, Hispanics, Caucasians, and other races could have all come from Shem, Ham, and Japheth (Noah's sons)? Yes.

Now I shall retreat into the shadows yet again.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 11:02:20 am

I think the races came from Micro-Evolution. I object to that term, but it's what scientists use, so I'll use it. Micro-Evolution is why we have so many breeds of dogs, cats, pigeons, flys, and everything else. I believe all dogs, and probably coyotes and wolves and other canines had a common ancestor: a dog. Does that mean enerything came from one single-celled organism billions of years ago? No. Does that mean that ASians, Hispanics, Caucasians, and other races could have all come from Shem, Ham, and Japheth (Noah's sons)? Yes.

Now I shall retreat into the shadows yet again.

sorry but I'm going have to drag you outta those shadows again, if you look at the bone structure of all mammals they are inherintly similar, compare those to birds and reptiles and they to are similar, albeit significantly modified in the case of birds, hand bones fused together, honey-combed bones, if you then went and compared these to early amphibians you would see similaritys there (note at each step back the skeletal structure gets simpler) finally we get to bony fish, which surprise surprise have a similar skeletal structure. Now do you want me to keep goign or have I proven my point?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 12, 2006, 12:10:27 pm
Okay 1. I think there are more differnces than you may think, for instance the hip structure in birds versus reptiles. Additionally, Evolution is supposed to utilize random changes to work. Random mutations occur, if it's good the creature survives, if its bad the creature dies (I always wonder how the mutation in question doesn't just get blended back into the population, resulting in no net change, hmmn...) If evolution is how we got here, then things would be much more random. On the other hand if one being made everything, you would kind of expect a certain degree of sameness. For instance Derk's creatures on this forum all look somewhat similar. Part of that is he's trying to make them similar so they fit into one ecosystem, part of it is because all the creation are being made by one person. I'm sure if Drake relied on random scribbles as much as Evolution relies on random mutation, there would be no common structure to his creatures

To sum up: You would expect commonality if some being designed all of life. You would expect widely varied organisms with almost no apparent similarities if Evolution got us all here. Thank you so much for proving my point.


I never wanted to get into a debate, but I'm getting more and more entangled. *sigh*
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 12:23:51 pm
nope, if you look at DDT immunity in mosquitoes, this is a perfect example, a few individuals have a gene which gives them an edge. This gene is then passed onto the offspring, because of said gene they would have a clear advantage, resulting in the entire population eventually having this characteristic, now if some individuals from the same species where in a different area with different selection pressures, then different mutations would prove advantageous, meaning that over time genetic drift would make these two populations entirely different species and unable to mate with each other.
If all the animals where created I would actually expect them all to be completely different, not the same, as they wouldn't have to have a common ancestor.
What evolution does at its most basic level is take something that works, make many copies with slight variations, take those that work and repeat, hence why so many animals have similar structures.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 12, 2006, 12:33:44 pm
To sum up: You would expect commonality if some being designed all of life. You would expect widely varied organisms with almost no apparent similarities if Evolution got us all here. Thank you so much for proving my point.

Exactly not. Evolution is not about promoting wild change, but about rewarding benefitial change. The catchphrase "survival of the fittest" is inherently wrong: it's about "survival of the least unfit". If there is no benefit to a mutation, it will not catch on, easy as that. And most mutations are without benefit, after all.  ;D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 12:35:07 pm
To sum up: You would expect commonality if some being designed all of life. You would expect widely varied organisms with almost no apparent similarities if Evolution got us all here. Thank you so much for proving my point.

Exactly not. Evolution is not about promoting wild change, but about rewarding benefitial change. The catchphrase "survival of the fittest" is inherently wrong: it's about "survival of the least unfit". If there is no benefit to a mutation, it will not catch on, easy as that. And most mutations are without benefit, after all.  ;D

thank you and goodnight
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Spriggand on March 12, 2006, 12:49:45 pm
To sum up: You would expect commonality if some being designed all of life. You would expect widely varied organisms with almost no apparent similarities if Evolution got us all here. Thank you so much for proving my point.

Exactly not. Evolution is not about promoting wild change, but about rewarding benefitial change. The catchphrase "survival of the fittest" is inherently wrong: it's about "survival of the least unfit". If there is no benefit to a mutation, it will not catch on, easy as that. And most mutations are without benefit, after all.  ;D

The main problem I see with evolution is this. A single-celled organism such as a paramecium is, relativley speaking, simple. Only one cell. As such, it has fairly simple genetic instructions. Humans have 22 pairs of chromosomes in each cell, containing all the genetic information to create a human being, including hair-color, skin-color, bone structure, everything, including genetic diseases. However, paramecia (I think that's the plural form) don't have skin, bones, hair, organs or anything like that, so they have much less genetic material. The more complex an organism is, the more genetic material it has. Where does this material come from?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 12, 2006, 12:55:59 pm
Okay 1. I think there are more differnces than you may think, for instance the hip structure in birds versus reptiles. Additionally, Evolution is supposed to utilize random changes to work. Random mutations occur, if it's good the creature survives, if its bad the creature dies (I always wonder how the mutation in question doesn't just get blended back into the population, resulting in no net change, hmmn...) If evolution is how we got here, then things would be much more random. On the other hand if one being made everything, you would kind of expect a certain degree of sameness. For instance Derk's creatures on this forum all look somewhat similar. Part of that is he's trying to make them similar so they fit into one ecosystem, part of it is because all the creation are being made by one person. I'm sure if Drake relied on random scribbles as much as Evolution relies on random mutation, there would be no common structure to his creatures

To sum up: You would expect commonality if some being designed all of life. You would expect widely varied organisms with almost no apparent similarities if Evolution got us all here. Thank you so much for proving my point.


I never wanted to get into a debate, but I'm getting more and more entangled. *sigh*

Ok, you how a poor understanding of the theory but you show promise.

Mutations= totally random
Evolution= purposeful (to an extent)

Theres a flaw in your reasoning which is so massive I cant even see it properly... thats pretty impressive... I'll step back a bit. Ah ;)
Evolution isnt 'random scribbles', its random adjustments. If evolution worked the way you thought then we would indeed be random chunks of crap with no fitness. But genes dont all mutate at once, the thing doesnt reset itself every time we reproduce. By tiny little changes over a VERY long time you can end up with very complex and efficient organism. The problem is that a lot of creationists are also young earthers so they dont allow the required 100s of millions of years for the process to happen. Of course 400 years isnt long enough for things to speciate ::).
Oh and Dogs most certainly decended from wolves... not the other way around. Think about it, Wolves basically all look the same. Dogs come in all shapes sizes and colours from chihuahua to Rotweiller. Even a a doubter of speciation by evolution has to agree that animals dont become LESS varied as they change gradually.

To spriggand. Its not unusual for an a miscopy during meiosis to duplicate whole extra chromasomes... sometimes this causes problems (like down's syndrome) however sometimes there are very few downsides. The copied chromasome can then mutate freely because the original copy is still taking on the functions it was doing originally. Its quite rare in animals but it happens all the time in plants with no side effects at all.
  
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 12:58:54 pm
it took nearly 2 billions years to go from a single celled organisms to simple multicellular organisms, but once you get to something as simple as a flat worm, there are modern examples of the intermediary stages, eg sea squirts are sack-like creatures which have a nerve cord but no spine, and it is believed that something similar could have been the ancestor of the vertebrates. when you think about it hair and feathers are just complicated scales, they're made from the same stuff after all. If you really want to examine this issue take a university grade book about evolution out of your local library. It'd take way to long to explain everything here
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 12, 2006, 01:08:54 pm
Ok, I read about 4 pages and got bored so if Im just repeating something someone said I apologize. As for the origonal question: I dont believe anything will happen. Its just a game! I am christian, I plan on playing it and do play games such as GTA, Doom, Halo, etc...I play them because they are fun. I dont think its a sin to play a game that has violence as long as you have no intention of acting like that in the real world.

As for evolution vs creationism? Is there really a point in argueing? There is no 100% undeniable truth for either so why not agree to disagree because I have yet to see one of these arguements end nicely or with any resolution.

Someone mentioned way back about Jesus supposed to return in 2000AD. Well, anyone who says that is wrong plane and simple. Nobody knows when Jesus will return and nobody will know. It specifically states this in the bible that only God the Father knows when the end will come.

Just a little comment on the whole 6 day genesis thing. I dont believe it was 6 days specifacally. It was 6 days by Gods counting. That could be BILLIONS of years by humans counting. Time could be billions times slower then earth or billions times faster...heaven is not physical in the since of this plane it is a higher plane therefor time is not the same.

One last little comment, science has proven that all modern humans came from one man (scientific adam). They arent saying he is THE adam just that for some reason he is the father of all modern humans. Look it up its true.


just my 2 pennies
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 12, 2006, 01:25:52 pm
Wow wonderful. You state my thoughts exactly (especially with that second paragraph.) Good job, wish I'd said that myself earlier, especially with that "end nicely or with any resolution." bit.

The only issue is that 4th paragraph. First of all, the word used in the original language is undeniable day, not an age. Now you might still say it was a figure of speech for simple minds and what not so whatever. The more serious problem with the Day-Age theory is what it implies. Plants were made on the third day, night didn't come into being until the 4th day. Are you saying plants evolved long before the Earth started spinning?! Genesis also says that marine life was made after land plants. I don't any evolutionist would agree with this. Additionally, Genesis says that birds were made before land animals, again I doubt you'll find any Evolutionist to agree with you on this one either.

And most important of all if you are a Christian, if Evolution is true then there was death disease and suffering before man. In which case man is not responsible for this cursed earth, and not responsible for sin. If that's true, there would be no need for Jesus sacrifice, and there can be no redemption. I'm sorry, but there is no real nice way to say it: If you are a Christian, and believe Evolution was the means God used to create life, then you are either sorely unaware of the most basic doctrines of the Christian faith, or a lunatic. This doesn't mean you won't go to heaven, it just means you're stupid. If anyone ever convinces me Evolution is true, I wil not be a Christian. You have to be either one or the other. The only way to reconcile the two, is, as I've already said, play dumb and stupid. They cannot co-exist.


And about those dogs: when I said wolves came from a dog, I was using the term dog to mean some generic canine. Not the Fido you keep in your home.
And
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 01:28:02 pm
It may be true that all humans came from one man, however that could be argued to also prove the common ancestor theory. But yes you're right there isn't 100% proof for either, so I shall stop arguing pro-evolution, unless other continue on this track ;)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 01:32:15 pm
Okay scrap what I just said, The earth was created in a damn site more than six days four thousand years ago we have radioactive dating to prove this, we also have bones which are dated in the same manner to prove that life was around long before we where.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 12, 2006, 01:45:33 pm
Ok, I read about 4 pages and got bored so if Im just repeating something someone said I apologize. As for the origonal question: I dont believe anything will happen. Its just a game! I am christian, I plan on playing it and do play games such as GTA, Doom, Halo, etc...I play them because they are fun. I dont think its a sin to play a game that has violence as long as you have no intention of acting like that in the real world.

As for evolution vs creationism? Is there really a point in argueing? There is no 100% undeniable truth for either so why not agree to disagree because I have yet to see one of these arguements end nicely or with any resolution.

Someone mentioned way back about Jesus supposed to return in 2000AD. Well, anyone who says that is wrong plane and simple. Nobody knows when Jesus will return and nobody will know. It specifically states this in the bible that only God the Father knows when the end will come.

Just a little comment on the whole 6 day genesis thing. I dont believe it was 6 days specifacally. It was 6 days by Gods counting. That could be BILLIONS of years by humans counting. Time could be billions times slower then earth or billions times faster...heaven is not physical in the since of this plane it is a higher plane therefor time is not the same.

One last little comment, science has proven that all modern humans came from one man (scientific adam). They arent saying he is THE adam just that for some reason he is the father of all modern humans. Look it up its true.


just my 2 pennies
So some of the bible is literally true and if its patently crap then it must be a metaphore. Great.

also: So we all decended from one man?... Doy! Not only that but we all decended from one same shrew like creature, the same reptile, the same fish, the same boneless eel, the same damn single cell that came into exsitance billions of years ago. Tracing one man doesnt prove jack. Besides, if you'd done your homework youd know that scientific adam is predated by scientific eve. Kind of craps all over the adams rib story nes pa?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 01:50:00 pm
I think the scientific Adam is mainly based upon the fact that all men have virtually the same Y chromosome, with very little variation, This is not because god created it but because it's sole function is to make us male, which is does very well, so it is difficult to improve on.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 12, 2006, 01:51:26 pm
I think the scientific Adam is mainly based upon the fact that all men have virtually the same Y chromosome, with very little variation, This is not because god created it but because it's sole function is to make us male, which is does very well, so it is difficult to improve on.
It has a few other functions (see colour blindness).

We all have a similar X chromasome because at one point the entire human population of the world numbered less than 500.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 12, 2006, 01:55:56 pm
Just to throw some stuff into the fire.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32444-2005Mar13.html?referrer=email

Quote
"Creationism's going to be our big battle. We're hoping that Kansas will be the model, and we're in it for the long haul," Fox said. He added that it does not matter "who gets the credit, as long as we win."

http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?file=article&name=News&op=modload&sid=933

Quote
When evidence of any uncertainty about the process of evolution is admitted, Creationists claim that the scientists don’t know what they are talking about. Science is tentative by nature. Cutting edge science will have lots of uncertainty attached to it. The honest scientist admits to uncertainty, while the Creationist is certain about everything he advocates--especially the ideas extracted from the Bible.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/

Yes, there is a museum dedicated to creationism...

Quote
Hold onto your seat! Take a journey through time that you’ve never experienced before! Biblical history comes alive, as God’s Word—beginning in Genesis—explains the universe we see today.

I'm not aying anything about either veiw, just that there are theese people fighting, pretty successfully, to get rid of education in schools. If they're doing that, I guess we don't want to send them spore.

but then, there IS the simple fact i've stated now on pretty much every forum i've been on;

No matter HOW much of an influence a game is, the parents influence is better.
Parents should do research into games before they buy them for their kids.
If a you see your child playing something you don't like, then stop them playing it and stop them buying any more by supervising them.
Don't stop the enjoyment of others just because of your views.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 02:01:45 pm
I think the scientific Adam is mainly based upon the fact that all men have virtually the same Y chromosome, with very little variation, This is not because god created it but because it's sole function is to make us male, which is does very well, so it is difficult to improve on.
It has a few other functions (see colour blindness).

We all have a similar X chromasome because at one point the entire human population of the world numbered less than 500.

actually the gene for colour blindness is on the X chromosome, In men it is more common because we don't have two X chromosomes, so we have no "back-up copy"
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 12, 2006, 02:09:14 pm
I think the scientific Adam is mainly based upon the fact that all men have virtually the same Y chromosome, with very little variation, This is not because god created it but because it's sole function is to make us male, which is does very well, so it is difficult to improve on.
It has a few other functions (see colour blindness).

We all have a similar X chromasome because at one point the entire human population of the world numbered less than 500.

actually the gene for colour blindness is on the X chromosome, In men it is more common because we don't have two X chromosomes, so we have no "back-up copy"
oops. Anyway... the Y does have a few other functions.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/CreationWise/CW_Pages/CW_TOC.asp  I cant say these creationsit cartoons are all the great... yeesh, I think they missed out the part where they were supposed to be entertaining.
Also: Do you know if you keep saying something... something like 'the bible is literally true' it becomes the truth?

Ha ha! Arent these unbelievers foolish! Admitting they were wrong and revising their opinions! What a bunch of dopes!

(http://www.answersingenesis.org/CreationWise/Cartoons/CWupdate.gif)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 02:15:48 pm
Wow, thats impressive, I've never seen such a terrible peice of propaganda, I mean that actually make creationists not only look unfunny but also kinda dum, I mean we still use Darwin and Mendel in modern evolutionary theory and they're over a hundred years old
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 12, 2006, 02:20:56 pm
Lets be unchanging in our beliefs!

The prevised periodic table reads as follows: Fi (fire), Wa (water), Ea (Earth), Ai (air). Being certain is GOOD. ::)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 02:24:04 pm
very well I shall update our knowledge of the solar system, it now goes(from the centre of the universe outward);
 earth>moon>sun, everything thing else that you see is actually painted onto the backdrop
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Muggerman on March 12, 2006, 02:26:54 pm
I think the scientific Adam is mainly based upon the fact that all men have virtually the same Y chromosome, with very little variation, This is not because god created it but because it's sole function is to make us male, which is does very well, so it is difficult to improve on.
It has a few other functions (see colour blindness).

We all have a similar X chromasome because at one point the entire human population of the world numbered less than 500.

actually the gene for colour blindness is on the X chromosome, In men it is more common because we don't have two X chromosomes, so we have no "back-up copy"
oops. Anyway... the Y does have a few other functions.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/CreationWise/CW_Pages/CW_TOC.asp  I cant say these creationsit cartoons are all the great... yeesh, I think they missed out the part where they were supposed to be entertaining.
Also: Do you know if you keep saying something... something like 'the bible is literally true' it becomes the truth?

Ha ha! Arent these unbelievers foolish! Admitting they were wrong and revising their opinions! What a bunch of dopes!

(http://www.answersingenesis.org/CreationWise/Cartoons/CWupdate.gif)
I hate those kind of cartoons. Not only are they lame and not funny, but they are cheap shots at science too. Hell, if it wernt for scientists, we wouldnt have electricity, computers, cars, planes, trains, TV's, radios, video games and so much more things, and we would all be idiots. Without scientists we probably wouldnt even have schools... Jeez talk about ungrateful people.

BTW I consider architects, inventors, engineers and mathematicians all to be scientists of a sort.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 02:38:40 pm
The Bible shoudn't be taken literally anyway, it should be meaning that adds focus to ours lives
*Shuuders* Imagine the distopia of a literall Old Testament - "An eye for an eye"

Heresy!! thou shalt be stoned to death along with all thine adulterers, single-mothers, people who worship a slightly different faith and anyone else who we don't like the look off. thyne crack-pot elders who have become mad with power have spoken!!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 12, 2006, 02:40:44 pm
The Bible shoudn't be taken literally anyway, it should be meaning that adds focus to ours lives
*Shuuders* Imagine the distopia of a literall Old Testament - "An eye for an eye"

EDIT: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/sciences/scienc4.htm
An Evangelical look on creation, sees so scary, you just laugh at it, well i do anyway...

To Richard Williams I say: "Methinks it is like a weasel"
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 12, 2006, 02:43:41 pm
Back on topic, maby?

or, at least a bit:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/CreationWise/Cartoons/CWweekening.gif

He's playing a game. They are dissing games that say evolution is true...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 12, 2006, 02:45:26 pm
The topic is: Jesus smash!

If the mods moved it to 'everything else' then this discussion wouldnt be off topic at all.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 02:47:05 pm
WTF this is exactly what we're on about, religious fundamentalists are fighting a losing battle with science and they're using every weaselly dirty trick they can to score points
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Muggerman on March 12, 2006, 02:48:30 pm
The topic is: Jesus smash!

If the mods moved it to 'everything else' then this discussion wouldnt be off topic at all.
Wich reminds me..... *goes to make a post in "everything else"* So ya guys stay on topic here.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 12, 2006, 02:49:47 pm
Yes, no mention of "priest shoots dead doctor who performed abortions" or "Muslim extremists behead hostages".
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 02:53:38 pm
This should sum up what many people think,
"We the people who believe in evolution think that Fundamentalist christians will declare the game evil and will urge the government to ban it, however we will dismiss these lunatics and play the game regardless"

please feel free to correct me if I've generalized too much ;D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 12, 2006, 02:54:08 pm
(http://www.answersingenesis.org/CreationWise/Cartoons/0407.gif)

OK, that one has me confused.
They have the words at the bottom wrong.
Surley sticking with a sentance from a book about 2000 years old is standing still, whilst looking for answers is a step towards the truth.
If the christians who wrote that one truly belive in god as 100% truth, then looking for the answers to "Where did we come from? Are we alone?" will surley result in the answers 'God' and 'Yes - apart from God', which is a giant leap towards god, not away. Right?

Maby they arnt as sure as they say...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 02:59:36 pm
What I want to know is if god really did create everything then why did he make so much evidence that he didn't?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 12, 2006, 03:01:01 pm
The Bible shoudn't be taken literally anyway, it should be meaning that adds focus to ours lives
*Shuuders* Imagine the distopia of a literall Old Testament - "An eye for an eye"

EDIT: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/sciences/scienc4.htm
An Evangelical look on creation, sees so scary, you just laugh at it, well i do anyway...

WTF?So what dose the creation of the solar System got to do with Evolution? NOTHING!Well as far as I know.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Cousarr on March 12, 2006, 03:04:23 pm
A couple nifty flash cartoons along these lines http://newgrounds.com/portal/view/255060

the other is "Neighboring nations" in other submissions.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Muggerman on March 12, 2006, 03:04:58 pm
ok guys please discuss this debate in my post in "everything else"
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Samog on March 12, 2006, 03:09:01 pm
There have been evolution/creation debates in the Spore forum ever since the Flying Spaghetti Monster created it.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 03:11:14 pm
okay if your like me and want to carry on annoying Christians who take the bible waaaaaaaay to seriously go onto this forum rather than cloggin up the one we're on

http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=2872.0
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 12, 2006, 04:43:13 pm
There have been evolution/creation debates in the Spore forum ever since the Flying Spaghetti Monster created it.

There is clearly no appreciation of His Noodle Appendage in this mess of heathens.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 12, 2006, 04:49:07 pm
okay if your like me and want to carry on annoying Christians who take the bible waaaaaaaay to seriously go onto this forum rather than cloggin up the one we're on

http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=2872.0

What do you mean cloggin up?That is the topic.That topic made over there is just a Spam topic  ::).An it will still be the same crap that is being talked about in this topic.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 05:25:15 pm
okay then I just put that in so ppl would stop saying that we're going off topic
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 12, 2006, 05:34:46 pm
Quote
I hate those kind of cartoons. Not only are they lame and not funny, but they are cheap shots at science too. Hell, if it wernt for scientists, we wouldnt have electricity, computers, cars, planes, trains, TV's, radios, video games and so much more things, and we would all be idiots. Without scientists we probably wouldnt even have schools... Jeez talk about ungrateful people.

BTW I consider architects, inventors, engineers and mathematicians all to be scientists of a sort.

Guess what? If it wasn't for the Christians, we would p[robably still be in the Dark AGes. It was only when people turned away from the Catholic dogma (no offense to Catholics, I think I'll see many of you in heaven, but much of what you believe is extrmely un-biblical, and false, especially during the 1800's and earlier) and started looking at the Bible, did they realize that if God made the world there must be order in the universe. This woke a passion to discover the secrets of the univers, which is actually commanded in the Bible, and this is what sparked many of the scientific discoveries of our time. And now look at these people claiming religion is against science, Jeez talk about ungrateful people.

Additionally, Evolution is not science. Stop calling it that. Evolution is no more scientific than Creationism. Both have been researched, both have evidence for them. Admittedly most of the evidence is on the Creation side, but there is some that could be construes as leaning toward Evolution. Both are religious. I freely admit mine's a religion, when will you guys admit Evolution is too? Both require faith. Of course believing that we came from rocks, which were then rained on, in which life arose from said water, and then turned into all living things we see today takes loads more faith than my theory, but it's still a valid faith. Sort of.

Someone said if God created the Earth, why did he leave so much evidence that he didn't. Uh... what evidence are you referring to? Name something specific please rather than broad generalizations.

Someone else mentioned radioactive dating. Did you know that the only way for carbon dating to work (and yes I'm aware it's not the only form of radioactive dating) it would require the carbon-14 in the atmosphere to be in a state of equilibrium? And starting from a new earth, it would take at most 100,000 years to reach this state? Guess what... we're not at equilibrium! More and more C-14 is being made in the atmosphere. It's being made faster than it's decomposing into more stable elements. C-14 is proof the atmosphere can't be older than 100,000 years. And there is much more where that came from.

(http://www.answersingenesis.org/CreationWise/Cartoons/0407.gif)

OK, that one has me confused.
They have the words at the bottom wrong.
Surley sticking with a sentance from a book about 2000 years old is standing still, whilst looking for answers is a step towards the truth.
If the christians who wrote that one truly belive in god as 100% truth, then looking for the answers to "Where did we come from? Are we alone?" will surley result in the answers 'God' and 'Yes - apart from God', which is a giant leap towards god, not away. Right?

Maby they arnt as sure as they say...

When the first astronauts entered space, many were quoted as feeling a nearness to God when viewing his wonderous extra-terrestial creation. Now adays, all we hear about is new ways to attempt to prove evolution. Now you understand? The cartoon is a statement about the changing views of the space program.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 05:41:37 pm
GUESS WHAT - your full of ****
It was because of the rise in Christianity that Rome became divided and eventually fell, causing the dark ages. It was also the Christian priest who repressed any form of technological, astronomical or physiological(medicine and biology) development for so long, just look at what the church did to Galileo, The only reason that the Renascence happened was because people got tired of being repressed by the church, and more people starting speaking out against its fanatical dogma. Also The main reason C14 is in flux is because America detonated the ATOM BOMB that means it is impossible to carbon date anything after the initial blast. Other forms of radioactive dating have shown the earth to be billions of years old.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Oviraptor on March 12, 2006, 05:44:28 pm
Perhaps it is a good time to teach you about the "Modify" button. Simply press this button to edit your last post, instead of double posting.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 05:45:50 pm
sorry, done, and I won't do it again ;)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SL on March 12, 2006, 05:49:15 pm
Evolution is no more scientific than Creationism. Both have been researched, both have evidence for them. Admittedly most of the evidence is on the Creation side

At this point my brain exploded from sheer shock and awe.

Since I've only ever seen evidence supporting evolution, and none supporting creationism, please enlighten me.

P.S. If you're going to try to use writings from a long time ago, please try to refrain from using sources which a historian wouldn't consider reliable, and you still have to find evidence that what is written is truth. For example, my quoting Galen wouldn't prove that all disease is caused by an imbalance of bodily humors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_humors).

Someone else mentioned radioactive dating. Did you know that the only way for carbon dating to work (and yes I'm aware it's not the only form of radioactive dating) it would require the carbon-14 in the atmosphere to be in a state of equilibrium? And starting from a new earth, it would take at most 100,000 years to reach this state? Guess what... we're not at equilibrium! More and more C-14 is being made in the atmosphere. It's being made faster than it's decomposing into more stable elements. C-14 is proof the atmosphere can't be older than 100,000 years. And there is much more where that came from.

Could you please point us to peer-reviewed scientific papers proving that (a) the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere is increasing, and (b) The increase isn't being caused by mankind, and (c) That it would take at most 100,000 years for the amount of C-14 in the air to reach equilibrium? Thanks.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 12, 2006, 06:05:20 pm
Carbon 14 isn't the only radioactive isotope they use for radioactive dating. And its not that they use radioactive dating of the atmosphere, for best results they use rock that us untouched by life. They also test rocks from the moon. Correct me if I'm wrong but I do beleive they use a radioactive isotope of lithium? or such for much longer periods of time.

From my experience most people putting forth creationist theories play the spin game by only mentioning certain facts, ie only the facts that either support them or show flaws in the current scientific theory, while science freely admits it can be wrong and rather than trying to prove its correct trys to prove itself wrong.

Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 06:34:03 pm
is there, or was there, any such thing as a wild chiwawa ??

Have you ever seen a wild chiwawa ?

no,          because the chiwawa was created by man from cross breeding different breeds of dogs to get the smallest looking pet.


There for the chiwawa came into existance after god made all the creatures thereby disproving every creationists wild thought because we ourselves created this creature by breeding smaller and smaller dogs.


thank you chiwawa, you have saved the earth once again from crazy creationists....
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 06:36:25 pm
actually the creationists argue that god created all of the plants and animals, but things like the different breeds of domesticated animals man created himself, I dunno why, maybe god decided that he wanted to go home early that day or something....
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 06:40:25 pm
even if these people believe the earth is only 6000 years old they cant argue that the chiwawa has not been around very long..
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 06:45:29 pm
"but things like the different breeds of domesticated animals man created himself, I dunno why, maybe god decided that he wanted to go home early that day or something"  -

ok so we can say without a doubt that the chiwawa "evolved" by selective breeding into what we have today..   creationists  0,  evil athiest legion 1.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 07:08:20 pm

ok so we can say without a doubt that the chiwawa "evolved" by selective breeding into what we have today..   creationists  0,  evil athiest legion 1.

yes we can say that the Chihuahua arose by selective breeding but the prescience of a Chihuahua doesn't automatically disprove creationism, see all of the previous posts for that....
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 12, 2006, 07:08:46 pm
normal pigs todasy were also demestcated versions of the wild hog, you can prove it because 1 week from when you let a demestic pig go, it grows shaggy fur, tusks, and other wild hog traits

creationists 0, evil atheist legion 2.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 07:14:28 pm
normal pigs todasy were also demestcated versions of the wild hog, you can prove it because 1 week from when you let a demestic pig go, it grows shaggy fur, tusks, and other wild hog traits

creationists 0, evil atheist legion 2.

I think you'll find thats the males, and they don't have those on a farm because the tusk can damedge the other pigs, so they keep cutting them off
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 07:14:52 pm
ok once again,,,  

Quote
yes we can say that the Chihuahua arose by selective breeding but the prescience of a Chihuahua doesn't automatically disprove creationism, see all of the previous posts for that....

dont say arose ,  the term is evolved...   creationists 0, evil atheist legion 3.

Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 07:18:08 pm
ok once again,,, 

Quote
yes we can say that the Chihuahua arose by selective breeding but the prescience of a Chihuahua doesn't automatically disprove creationism, see all of the previous posts for that....

dont say arose ,  the term is evolved...   creationists 0, evil atheist legion 3.



no the term is arose, evolved implies natural selection, whereas a chihuahua was selectively bred
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 07:22:20 pm
Quote
whereas a chihuahua was selectively bred

yes, selectively bread, just as we pick our own mates to have children with, whats the difference ?
passing genetic trates down through the generations.

heres the thing, if for some reason it became fashionable and scociable to breed with people that are born with no eyes, then the next generation will have that genetic trait, and so on and so on, fast foward a billion years or so and you have a race that has selectively bread itself to have no eyes..   

creationists 0, evil atheist legion 4.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 07:27:23 pm
the difference is WE choose who WE breed with, the chihuahuas didn't we choose their mates, thats the difference between selective breeding, where you SELECT certain charactoristics you want to BREED for, and natural evolution, where the species itself selects the most appealing mate

also I'm not a creatonist I just don't like bad biology
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 07:30:29 pm
you havnt made any point there,,

we select our own mates baced on what we find atractive, it is usualy the scocial mentality that determins what is attractive. so if social ideals change, the idea of what is attractive changes - there by changing what genetic traited are passed down through the generations.


i'm sure afew million years ago there was an ape that thought  the ape that could stand up on 2 legs was more attractive..

creationists 0, evil atheist legion 5.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GrrrArrgh on March 12, 2006, 07:34:46 pm
Urrgh.. so much.. to... correct.. I'm going to continue staying away from this thread entirely, at the risk of giving myself an aneurysm.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 07:36:38 pm
oh please correct me, i'm dazzeled by the brilliance that is you.. preferable correct me using bible quotes that would be interesting.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 07:37:35 pm
god damn it!
The point I was making is that you can't use a breed of dog to argue against creatonism, as that is already worked into the theory, even the creatonist figured that something like that could prove a problem, incidently why are you bothering to keep score? Quite a few of us have already argued the case for evolution quite well on the previous pages...
Also I think that guy was on about your flawed logic
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 07:38:43 pm
did you just tell me to submit ?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 12, 2006, 07:39:30 pm
the difference is WE choose who WE breed with, the chihuahuas didn't we choose their mates, thats the difference between selective breeding, where you SELECT certain charactoristics you want to BREED for, and natural evolution, where the species itself selects the most appealing mate

also I'm not a creatonist I just don't like bad biology

actually, it is the same except in the wild the one best fit to servive is the one that doesent die and lives on. it passes its genes on to a new generation. but for it to be different in the first place, the animal had to somehow become differewnt from the rest. there is a crab somewere in asia(srry, really hard for me to tell between japan and china) that the ysay has a face like a samuri. a long time ago there was a big battle that killed many samuri and they say that their souls became crabs. now all the crabs that have that face survive, but the ones that dont, dont. this was just a case that was with humans, but it could happen to any species. say, an insect that is at first, normal, but a few have patterns that scare predators, the bland ones die, the others dont, they mate, and the patern becomes scarier for predators, thus they become the sew sub-species, and the other sub-species dies out.

(p.s. im kinda between evolution and natural selection, and they might sorta be a combination thing)


creationists 0, evil atheist legion 6.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 07:42:45 pm
you know what, forget it, I don't even care anymore. All I can say is that it was more fun arguing with creationists that at least knew what they where on about
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 07:43:26 pm
i think its funny that you can dismiss my arguement out of hand and then go read a 2000 year old childrens bedtime story and act all supreme.

creationists 0, evil atheist legion 8.   - i get 2 points because he gave up his faith and threw in the towl.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Oviraptor on March 12, 2006, 07:43:41 pm
I am on the evolution side, however I feel I must warn that some of you on the evolution side don't seem to fully inderstand exactly what evolution is. I would post and enlighten you, but it's late, and I simply don't have the time. If I feel like it I can post some other day.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 07:48:02 pm
btw werechicken  if i ever come across your species while playing spore i will let them evolve out of spite, so they can doubt your existance
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 07:48:44 pm
i think its funny that you can dismiss my arguement out of hand and then go read a 2000 year old childrens bedtime story and act all supreme.

creationists 0, evil atheist legion 8.   - i get 2 points because he gave up his faith and threw in the towl.


OH MY GOD YOU STUPID ***********
I am not a creationist, if you had bothered to read my previous postings you will know this. I was arguing against you ridiculously flawed logic, seriously though have you the brain worms or something!?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 07:50:22 pm
well you come of as a creationist to me, you reak of it.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Oviraptor on March 12, 2006, 07:51:54 pm
Okay, everybody calm down. There is no reason to be name calling. Try and keep your posts civil and not let others get to you. Thank you.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 07:52:34 pm
just look at the previous posts, also go on wikipedia and look up selective breeding, sorry oviraptor, but nobody calls me a creationist
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 07:52:51 pm
yeah i hate being called a  ***********

actualy i dont mind.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GrrrArrgh on March 12, 2006, 08:01:21 pm
oh please correct me, i'm dazzeled by the brilliance that is you.. preferable correct me using bible quotes that would be interesting.

Still not getting into the actual debate, but I at least need to make a statement here. You're making a very bad name for yourself by presenting such a horribly flawed argument and lashing out at individuals who support evolution and might otherwise be on your side. Seems that you're looking to pick fights more than anything else. If you did some digging back into the last evolution vs. creationism debate you'd clearly see I myself agree with evolution and consider myself nondemoninational so far as religion goes. The bible doesn't mean to jack to me, so quoting it wouldn't do me much good, especially when my argument would be for the opposing side.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 12, 2006, 08:02:36 pm
* and with that he walks away smiling*
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 12, 2006, 08:20:12 pm
Philistines, the lot of you us.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mr. Wizard on March 12, 2006, 08:21:55 pm
:D Stop insulting each other. This discussion isn't getting anywhere. You are all just stepping on each other's toes, even though most of you have the same opinion.

werechicken just said that using the chihuahua was a bad example. This is his oppinion.

alti sounds like he wants a Christian to flame. :D

Fine then, I'll play devil advocate (pun intended) and pretend to be the conservative Christian, and draw all flaming to me (I am going to go off the deep end and pretend to be an Uber conservative Christian ;)):

Evolution is incorrect. They have based all of their work on large assumptions and ridiculous fragmented research. If man evolved from apes, why are there still apes? Evolution just has far too much pride to admit that it is itself a religion.

A watch is a complex mechanism. it could not have occurred naturally, not by some mistake. It had to be designed. his is the same about life. It is incredibly complex, so much so that it puts the complex watch to shame. Therefore, would not something as complex as life also be designed?

Mankind already knows a great deal. We know all the chemicals and elements necessary for life. We (by "We" I mean scientists) have recreated these same exact conditions in a laboratory. Everything that was inside the primordial soup was in some scientists beaker. But one thing was missing.

Life.

Science has yet to get life to spawn by itself. They have yet to get life to form within a beaker. In other word, Science has no idea how life was created. How then do they presume to know how life was able to grow and move on? By digging in dirt for a fossil of algae, the same species that still exists today.

God is Perfect, man is fallible.

I find it funny how Ideologues say they are free thinkers, when they hang on every word someone else says.

(I cobbled that together from bits and pieces of pro creationist speeches I found on the internet. Have fun ripping it apart. ;) Oh, and as far as I can tell, the part about never creating life alone is true, Science never has. I am still looking for an article that talks about that experiment directly, but from bits and pieces I have found, he wasn't making it up. It was from a speech that Pat Robertson attended. Some of that I just pulled off of comedy central.  :D)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Muggerman on March 12, 2006, 08:33:12 pm
arnt you guys supposed to be NOT arguing in this topic anymore and go to the topic I made in "everything else"? This thread went way off topic on about... oh the 1st or 2nd page.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Silver_Kiwi on March 12, 2006, 08:47:24 pm
Ok, I'm gonna throw my weight in here too!
1) I am Roman Catholic!
2) Evolution makes sense, and the Pope thinks so too! *gasp!*

Ok, here's my reasons...
1) Background radiation in the universe. Look it up, its pretty uniform everywhere. Why? Unless God woke up one day and said
"Bam!" Universe that looks 15 billion years old, "Exist!"

2) Carbon dating. Heck, you can use basic differential equations to figure out the life of old bones!

3) Extinction events, archeology, etc....
If dinosaurs roamed the earth with humans, how come, a) we have no cave paintings of them, b) have no bones of them in human camps, etc..

4) Many many more reasons. Things become complex. It is limiting our human abilities to say,
"Hey, look! All this stuff just came together 6000 years ago. No more research, no more questions, period!"
Are their missing pieces of evidence? Yes! Of course, it is SCIENCE!
Science is not always right (gasp!), Science doesn't always predict correctly, but darnit its the best thing we've got!

**** Main Point ****
How do we explain 10 billion year old light? God made the universe with light comming towards us???
If the universe was made 6000 years ago (or 60,000 yrs or 600,000 yrs) we should ONLY see the light of stars from 6000 light years away (or 60,000 lys, or...). I look up and count thousands of stars at night. Hubble looks into the sky and see's BILLIONS of stars. So... we either have all these stars in a sphere of 6000 li.yrs (or 60,000 lyrs, ...) , or they are farther away.
If they are farther away then either God made the universe with light comming to us or...
everything happened (more or less) like we think it did, Big Bang (or any other model, it doesn't matter), stellar formation, etc

Will there be improvements, Yes! Will there be complete revocations of certain theories, Yes! (look at Newtonian mechanics!)
Science thrives because it takes what we observe, what we know (like the half life of uranium or carbon 14, etc) and applies that to what we can observe. If it is proven wrong we actually change our minds!

People who hold to Creationism and young earth theories are doing themselves a disservice by denying critical evidence (ie, cosmic background radiation, half-lives of elements, etc) that it simply did not happen that way.
This is a disservice because they are using their very powerful organ (the brain) and simply saying, "No thanks, i'm not going to try to come up with a better idea. I'm not going to fill in the gaps of my theory." I know this is not true for everyone, but it is an unfortunately overwhelimg case. People who are for young earth and creationsim should realize that, to gain credibility, they should find the holes in their theory and fill them in.

Figure out what went wrong with your flaw (lets take half-life of Uranium for instance) and tell the general populus HOW that fits into their theory.
But that really is the problem. Creationism is not a science, it is a set of beliefs. Science, and good scientist, will abandon their preconceived notions and favorite theories and go with the one that makes sense! Until creationism uses science to prove it is correct it will always be on the fringe.

Expand your mind people! Realize that God and Science are not two distinct realms of human interaction.

We've only discovered the really crazy science and engineering in the last 2 centuries! We haven't been flying airplanes for more than 150 years. We JUST REALIZED that nothing can go faster than light, and we've just (in the last 75 years) been able to use brute force calculating machines (ie, computers) to make startling advances in so many fields.
Give the scientific method more time to see the crazy things!
Realize that religion and science should have no hostilities.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Muggerman on March 12, 2006, 08:54:36 pm
Ok, I'm gonna throw my weight in here too!
1) I am Roman Catholic!
2) Evolution makes sense, and the Pope thinks so too! *gasp!*

Ok, here's my reasons...
1) Background radiation in the universe. Look it up, its pretty uniform everywhere. Why? Unless God woke up one day and said
"Bam!" Universe that looks 15 billion years old, "Exist!"

2) Carbon dating. Heck, you can use basic differential equations to figure out the life of old bones!

3) Extinction events, archeology, etc....
If dinosaurs roamed the earth with humans, how come, a) we have no cave paintings of them, b) have no bones of them in human camps, etc..

4) Many many more reasons. Things become complex. It is limiting our human abilities to say,
"Hey, look! All this stuff just came together 6000 years ago. No more research, no more questions, period!"
Are their missing pieces of evidence? Yes! Of course, it is SCIENCE!
Science is not always right (gasp!), Science doesn't always predict correctly, but darnit its the best thing we've got!

**** Main Point ****
How do we explain 10 billion year old light? God made the universe with light comming towards us???
If the universe was made 6000 years ago (or 60,000 yrs or 600,000 yrs) we should ONLY see the light of stars from 6000 light years away (or 60,000 lys, or...). I look up and count thousands of stars at night. Hubble looks into the sky and see's BILLIONS of stars. So... we either have all these stars in a sphere of 6000 li.yrs (or 60,000 lyrs, ...) , or they are farther away.
If they are farther away then either God made the universe with light comming to us or...
everything happened (more or less) like we think it did, Big Bang (or any other model, it doesn't matter), stellar formation, etc

Will there be improvements, Yes! Will there be complete revocations of certain theories, Yes! (look at Newtonian mechanics!)
Science thrives because it takes what we observe, what we know (like the half life of uranium or carbon 14, etc) and applies that to what we can observe. If it is proven wrong we actually change our minds!

People who hold to Creationism and young earth theories are doing themselves a disservice by denying critical evidence (ie, cosmic background radiation, half-lives of elements, etc) that it simply did not happen that way.
Expand your mind people! Realize that God and Science are not two distinct realms of human interaction.

We've only discovered the really crazy science and engineering in the last 2 centuries! We haven't been flying airplanes for more than 150 years. We JUST REALIZED that nothing can go faster than light, and we've just (in the last 75 years) been able to use brute force calculating machines (ie, computers) to make startling advances in so many fields.
Give the scientific method more time to see the crazy things!
Realize that religion and science should have no hostilities.
umm... Amen!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 12, 2006, 08:57:32 pm
i made something really big and explaining for you miss, "jesus mad... jesus smash!"

well, im gonna sound like jan luc picard/science channel anouncer when i say, yes. a pocket watch is very complex. but is is not complex enouph to make itself eh?  ;) . an organism, wether you like it or not, is made of particles and molicules. molecules are living things. in my veiw, almost like jelly fish. the yhave no brain at all, its a wonder that something without brain or thought, yet still living, can exist. yet is does, and in so many types, and forms. a clock runs the same way each time, yet a cell does not. in fact, in a way you could say that we are less perfect than a clock, or computer. we are all flawed and that is wy we live. if we were perfect, never changing things, then we would be as insignificant as a watch. if we were perfect then we would always be right, we would never lose a game of chess. there would be no meaning in life because interaction with other humans would be impossible. we could never play a boared game because we're perfect and cant lose. now since we are not the same as a watch, and we are huge flaws, we are perfect. now since we are not perfect, and neither are cells, we change. we mutate, we become slightly different than the others. this is because when a female and a male have a child, it is a mix of them both, thus you are someing completly different than every other being. also, jus being born has mutations too, cells dont work like a clock either. the cells dont make a perfect mix of the two humans, they merely imitate it bnecause that is what they have to work with, say, you have two sets of block. each set has the same color, but you do not make the same thing each time. they are built differently. thus, they are different altogether. when the cells construct life, they dont do it the exact same time, every time, its always different, thus the design gos on to repeat, as this happens, it becomes a different life form, more cells are used in the construction and it gets bigger, smaller, smarter, stronger, or faster. this repeats and you come out with something completely different from what you had in the begining. the end :P

(may be slightly flawed, srry about any errors, bring them to my atention and ill fix them, and yes, despite my weird and sillyness sometimes, i am in fact, a total nerd)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Muggerman on March 12, 2006, 09:03:20 pm
i made something really big and explaining for you miss, "jesus mad... jesus smash!"

well, im gonna sound like jan luc picard/science channel anouncer when i say, yes. a pocket watch is very complex. but is is not complex enouph to make itself eh?  ;) . an organism, wether you like it or not, is made of particles and molicules. molecules are living things. in my veiw, almost like jelly fish. the yhave no brain at all, its a wonder that something without brain or thought, yet still living, can exist. yet is does, and in so many types, and forms. a clock runs the same way each time, yet a cell does not. in fact, in a way you could say that we are less perfect than a clock, or computer. we are all flawed and that is wy we live. if we were perfect, never changing things, then we would be as insignificant as a watch. if we were perfect then we would always be right, we would never lose a game of chess. there would be no meaning in life because interaction with other humans would be impossible. we could never play a boared game because we're perfect and cant lose. now since we are not the same as a watch, and we are huge flaws, we are perfect. now since we are not perfect, and neither are cells, we change. we mutate, we become slightly different than the others. this is because when a female and a male have a child, it is a mix of them both, thus you are someing completly different than every other being. also, jus being born has mutations too, cells dont work like a clock either. the cells dont make a perfect mix of the two humans, they merely imitate it bnecause that is what they have to work with, say, you have two sets of block. each set has the same color, but you do not make the same thing each time. they are built differently. thus, they are different altogether. when the cells construct life, they dont do it the exact same time, every time, its always different, thus the design gos on to repeat, as this happens, it becomes a different life form, more cells are used in the construction and it gets bigger, smaller, smarter, stronger, or faster. this repeats and you come out with something completely different from what you had in the begining. the end :P

(may be slightly flawed, srry about any errors, bring them to my atention and ill fix them, and yes, despite my weird and sillyness sometimes, i am in fact, a total nerd)
I agree with that, but the first sentance is a bit confusing. Is it supposed to be directed towards me? Cause if so, im not a miss. Or a mrs for that matter.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 12, 2006, 09:07:33 pm
no, its just there for an obvious example. i may be weird, but this compelled me to take out my scientific side. I watch WAY to much sience channel for my age, shouldnt i be watching cartoons at 11?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 12, 2006, 09:29:55 pm
Quote
alti sounds like he wants a Christian to flame

all i want you to do is consider the chawawa paradox. thats all.

If there have never been any wild chawawa's  and man selectively bread them into existance, why couldnt we have just done the same to ourselves by selectively picking our mates ?
from ape to human over a period of afew million years.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 12, 2006, 09:41:44 pm
lol, my debate wins in 20 minutes if no one posts  :D MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 12, 2006, 09:45:18 pm
OH NO! THE LONG POSTS ARE COMING! HEAD FOR THE...SAFE PLACE!!!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 12, 2006, 09:47:52 pm
con-sarnet
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Aybraus on March 12, 2006, 10:19:07 pm
Whoa conflict!

Everyone needs to talk using calm voices, kind words, and "I" statements!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 12, 2006, 11:34:52 pm
I beleive we should all bow down and worship Google(tm). It divinity is clear, if you can phrase it right there is almost no question it can't answer.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 13, 2006, 12:50:36 am
Ok, I'm gonna throw my weight in here too!
1) I am Roman Catholic!
2) Evolution makes sense, and the Pope thinks so too! *gasp!*

Ok, here's my reasons...
1) Background radiation in the universe. Look it up, its pretty uniform everywhere. Why? Unless God woke up one day and said
"Bam!" Universe that looks 15 billion years old, "Exist!"

2) Carbon dating. Heck, you can use basic differential equations to figure out the life of old bones!

3) Extinction events, archeology, etc....
If dinosaurs roamed the earth with humans, how come, a) we have no cave paintings of them, b) have no bones of them in human camps, etc..

4) Many many more reasons. Things become complex. It is limiting our human abilities to say,
"Hey, look! All this stuff just came together 6000 years ago. No more research, no more questions, period!"
Are their missing pieces of evidence? Yes! Of course, it is SCIENCE!
Science is not always right (gasp!), Science doesn't always predict correctly, but darnit its the best thing we've got!

**** Main Point ****
How do we explain 10 billion year old light? God made the universe with light comming towards us???
If the universe was made 6000 years ago (or 60,000 yrs or 600,000 yrs) we should ONLY see the light of stars from 6000 light years away (or 60,000 lys, or...). I look up and count thousands of stars at night. Hubble looks into the sky and see's BILLIONS of stars. So... we either have all these stars in a sphere of 6000 li.yrs (or 60,000 lyrs, ...) , or they are farther away.
If they are farther away then either God made the universe with light comming to us or...
everything happened (more or less) like we think it did, Big Bang (or any other model, it doesn't matter), stellar formation, etc

Will there be improvements, Yes! Will there be complete revocations of certain theories, Yes! (look at Newtonian mechanics!)
Science thrives because it takes what we observe, what we know (like the half life of uranium or carbon 14, etc) and applies that to what we can observe. If it is proven wrong we actually change our minds!

People who hold to Creationism and young earth theories are doing themselves a disservice by denying critical evidence (ie, cosmic background radiation, half-lives of elements, etc) that it simply did not happen that way.
This is a disservice because they are using their very powerful organ (the brain) and simply saying, "No thanks, i'm not going to try to come up with a better idea. I'm not going to fill in the gaps of my theory." I know this is not true for everyone, but it is an unfortunately overwhelimg case. People who are for young earth and creationsim should realize that, to gain credibility, they should find the holes in their theory and fill them in.

Figure out what went wrong with your flaw (lets take half-life of Uranium for instance) and tell the general populus HOW that fits into their theory.
But that really is the problem. Creationism is not a science, it is a set of beliefs. Science, and good scientist, will abandon their preconceived notions and favorite theories and go with the one that makes sense! Until creationism uses science to prove it is correct it will always be on the fringe.

Expand your mind people! Realize that God and Science are not two distinct realms of human interaction.

We've only discovered the really crazy science and engineering in the last 2 centuries! We haven't been flying airplanes for more than 150 years. We JUST REALIZED that nothing can go faster than light, and we've just (in the last 75 years) been able to use brute force calculating machines (ie, computers) to make startling advances in so many fields.
Give the scientific method more time to see the crazy things!
Realize that religion and science should have no hostilities.
Actually the kindly old pope and his predecessor thought so. The nasty-looking new guy doesnt :(
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 13, 2006, 01:11:09 am
Actually the kindly old pope and his predecessor thought so. The nasty-looking new guy doesnt :(

Not quite correct either. John Paul II. wasn't big on evolution, but he thought the Church was better off fighting other battles. The Congregation of Faith (which is what Benedict headed before becoming Pope) was ever the watchful watchdog when it came to protecting catholic dogma, so it's not a fully unexpected reversal. Even so, the Church has stressed that science and faith are compatible, which sets them apart from most evangelical Christians, especially the Born-Again kind.

Personally, I prefer Roman-Catholics over Evangelicals any day. At least Catholics can be held accountable by an earthly institution. Evangelicals, they're more likely to hide behind divine authority by telling you "God told me to do it" and expect you to respect them for it, and then get upset when you call them on it.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 13, 2006, 03:34:51 am
I got to sleep for the night and looks what appens :-\

Alright, if you paid attention to my previous posts, I've already explained the whole Chihuahua thing. (Huh? Someone knows how to spell it!!! Oh noes!!!!!) But I'll summarize again here: Chihuahua's and other dog breeds, and probably other wild canines, all came from one canine due to Micro-evolution, which is the only form of evolution that has been observed. That does not mean that canines and felines all came from one odd-ball land creature that came out of the ocean that came from a little single-celled organism that came from disolved minerals from rain that rained on rocks after the Earth cooled down, after it condesnsed from various gases after they clumped together for absolutoly no reason defying physics that came from a small clump of super-condensed matter that came from nowhere! Boy now doesn't all that sound scientific? More like a ludicrous fairy tale to me.

I have observed here the same as I have every time I've participated in a Creation vs. Evolution debate:

1. Name-calling and insults and hot-tempers
2. Extreme logical flaws as either Creationists and/or Evolutionists fight for every scrap of evidence.
3. People not reading each other posts just saying what they will with little to no real discussion.


I don't know if I'll post here again. I said I wouldn't before, and I did, so I won't say anything more than: I'll try to stay waay, but if someone directly addresses me, or says something that really riles, me, I'll post here again. I don't claim to have won this debate, far far from it. But I'm in no way beaten either.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 13, 2006, 04:34:20 am
Alright, if you paid attention to my previous posts, I've already explained the whole Chihuahua thing. (Huh? Someone knows how to spell it!!! Oh noes!!!!!) But I'll summarize again here: Chihuahua's and other dog breeds, and probably other wild canines, all came from one canine due to Micro-evolution, which is the only form of evolution that has been observed. That does not mean that canines and felines all came from one odd-ball land creature that came out of the ocean that came from a little single-celled organism that came from disolved minerals from rain that rained on rocks after the Earth cooled down, after it condesnsed from various gases after they clumped together for absolutoly no reason defying physics that came from a small clump of super-condensed matter that came from nowhere! Boy now doesn't all that sound scientific? More like a ludicrous fairy tale to me.

If I may: it sounds slightly more scientific than "Being that knows everything and is everywhere created it all from nothing within a week". But I agree that both sound equally ludicrous.

I'm not convinced that accretion theory (which covers planetary formation) defies physics, though. It's an astrophysical theory after all, and those guys tend to be rather thorough. Also, you're conflating theories again. I suggest you don't make yourself vulnerable like that.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 05:18:35 am
shivore- you googeled "Chihuahua" and we all know it. Dont be so pedantic, oh and dont bother googeling pedantic try www.dictionary.com.

Quote
canines, all came from one canine due to Micro-evolution, which is the only form of evolution that has been observed.
- so compleatly wrong, - the evolution of plants -
http://sci.waikato.ac.nz/evolution/plantEvolution.shtml   watch out you 6 day creationists the evolution of plants uses huge expances of time, 2000 million years and so on..

you get at least one point for the creationists for admitting a form of evolution all beit micro evolution... but the evil athiest legions gain 3 points for making you admit even a hint of evolution.

ok heres one for you.  why does the platypuss only exist in australia and tasmania??

oh sorry shivore-  A semiaquatic egg-laying mammal (Ornithorhynchus anatinus) of Australia and Tasmania, having a broad flat tail, webbed feet, and a snout resembling a duck's bill. Also called duckbill, duck-billed platypus



creationists - 1   evil athiest legion - 11
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 13, 2006, 05:33:10 am
shivore- you googeled "Chihuahua" and we all know it. Dont be so pedantic, oh and dont bother googeling pedantic try www.dictionary.com.

you get at least one point for the creationists for admitting a form of evolution all beit micro evolution... but the evil athiest legions gain 3 points for making you admit even a hint of evolution.

ok heres one for you.  why does the platapuss only exist in australia and tasmania??

oh sorry shivore-  A semiaquatic egg-laying mammal (Ornithorhynchus anatinus) of Australia and Tasmania, having a broad flat tail, webbed feet, and a snout resembling a duck's bill. Also called duckbill, duck-billed platypus



creationists - 1   evil athiest legion - 11

That post epitimizes why I don't like these debates. If you looked over my previous posts you'd see in (I think, not sure) my third post in this topic that I mentioned that micro-evolution, which is observed and scientific fact. You on the other hand, believe in Macro-Evolution which is not observed. Tell me who should be getting the point again? On second that disregard that... stop with the points already!

And I fail to see what the platypus has to do with anything, but if you must know, probably because it would have difficulty living elsewhere. I'm not an expert on Platypus, but I do know that there are many animals living on Australia not found elsewhere in the world.

And that spelling thing was a joke. You know hee hee and all that? why else I put that "Oh noes!!!!!" at the end? (And for you information I did not Google it. I opened Word, typed in my best guess for it, and used the spellchecker to find the proper spelling.)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 05:38:05 am
For that miserable comeback you loose the only point that the creationists have earned in 2000 years.

- if you were to put the platypus in the sahara it would die, if you put the platypus in the middle of the ocean it would eventualy drown. why ?

creationists - 0   evil athiest legion - 11
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SL on March 13, 2006, 05:43:51 am
imolecules are living things.

I was going to say ":boggle:", but I just realized you said "iMolecules," not molecules.

and we are huge flaws, we are perfect.
The English language is crying out in pain and torment.

P.S. What the hell are you smoking?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 13, 2006, 06:34:59 am
shivore- you googeled "Chihuahua" and we all know it. Dont be so pedantic, oh and dont bother googeling pedantic try www.dictionary.com.

you get at least one point for the creationists for admitting a form of evolution all beit micro evolution... but the evil athiest legions gain 3 points for making you admit even a hint of evolution.

ok heres one for you.  why does the platapuss only exist in australia and tasmania??

oh sorry shivore-  A semiaquatic egg-laying mammal (Ornithorhynchus anatinus) of Australia and Tasmania, having a broad flat tail, webbed feet, and a snout resembling a duck's bill. Also called duckbill, duck-billed platypus



creationists - 1   evil athiest legion - 11

That post epitimizes why I don't like these debates. If you looked over my previous posts you'd see in (I think, not sure) my third post in this topic that I mentioned that micro-evolution, which is observed and scientific fact. You on the other hand, believe in Macro-Evolution which is not observed. Tell me who should be getting the point again? On second that disregard that... stop with the points already!

And I fail to see what the platypus has to do with anything, but if you must know, probably because it would have difficulty living elsewhere. I'm not an expert on Platypus, but I do know that there are many animals living on Australia not found elsewhere in the world.

And that spelling thing was a joke. You know hee hee and all that? why else I put that "Oh noes!!!!!" at the end? (And for you information I did not Google it. I opened Word, typed in my best guess for it, and used the spellchecker to find the proper spelling.)
You cant accept the existance of microevolution without accepting macroevolution. The existance of the former logically insists on the existance of the latter.
Its like saying you believe that fasions in clothing and archetecture change but the overall culture of a civilisation doesnt.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 13, 2006, 06:41:54 am
For that miserable comeback you loose the only point that the creationists have earned in 2000 years.

- if you were to put the platypus in the sahara it would die, if you put the platypus in the middle of the ocean it would eventualy drown. why ?

creationists - 0   evil athiest legion - 11

Who's the one with the miserable comebacks again?


I think this has gone on long enough. If anyone really wants to know Creationist's answers to questions, and what evidence we have to present, there are many books on the subject, and also a nifty little thing known as Google.

I think the answer to this thread's orginal question has been answered: The majority of Creationists wil probably ignore, and in fact probably never even hear of, this game. Most of the rest, including myself, will actually play it and enjoy it just as much as pure Evolutionists and Theistic-Evolutionists, and people of other opinions. In my view, this thread has run its course.

<edit> While I was typing the above, krakow sam made his post. To answer that: That's like saying if a car can go from 0 to 60 MPH in 5 seconds, it can go from 60 to 1,000,000,000,000 MPH given enough time. Not necessarily. Please sir (or madam), take a logic course.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 06:49:46 am
Of course you want to close the thread because you have nothing to argue with. but thats ok, if i lived in a world i thought was 3000 years old i wouldnt have much material either..
us athiests have bilions of years on you guys...


Quote
You cant accept the existance of microevolution without accepting macroevolution
  - yep thats worth a big point.

evolutionists - 0    evil athiest legion - 12
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 13, 2006, 07:11:24 am
For that miserable comeback you loose the only point that the creationists have earned in 2000 years.

- if you were to put the platypus in the sahara it would die, if you put the platypus in the middle of the ocean it would eventualy drown. why ?

creationists - 0   evil athiest legion - 11

Who's the one with the miserable comebacks again?


I think this has gone on long enough. If anyone really wants to know Creationist's answers to questions, and what evidence we have to present, there are many books on the subject, and also a nifty little thing known as Google.

I think the answer to this thread's orginal question has been answered: The majority of Creationists wil probably ignore, and in fact probably never even hear of, this game. Most of the rest, including myself, will actually play it and enjoy it just as much as pure Evolutionists and Theistic-Evolutionists, and people of other opinions. In my view, this thread has run its course.

<edit> While I was typing the above, krakow sam made his post. To answer that: That's like saying if a car can go from 0 to 60 MPH in 5 seconds, it can go from 60 to 1,000,000,000,000 MPH given enough time. Not necessarily. Please sir (or madam), take a logic course.

No you take a damn 'logic course'. If you can drive a mile you can drive a thousand million miles. Speed is not important, we're talking 'distance' here. Evolution is cumulative ::).
What you seem to be suggesting is that if a bacterium experiences mutations at the rate of 500 per generation then over the generations you would end up with a bacterium which experience a billion mutations every time it reproduces. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

And stop tallying points you guys. Its childish.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 13, 2006, 07:16:35 am
I am following this thread for a while now, and the lack of logic some people have suprises me. I have also seen a lot of good arguments, though. I would really want to give my opinion, but because isn't my primary language, it's hard to speak my mind.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 07:38:32 am

all i want you to do is consider the chawawa paradox. thats all.

If there have never been any wild chawawa's  and man selectively bread them into existance, why couldnt we have just done the same to ourselves by selectively picking our mates ?
from ape to human over a period of afew million years.
look I'll explain this one more time, then I'm going off to twitch in a darkened room, selective breeding is when humans select animals with certain traits they like, then they force animals with these traits to mate, evolution is when an animal itself, including humans, selects its own mate based on what it considers to be physical attraction. The reason I was getting insulting is because of accusations that I am some sort of right-wing Evangelical creationist - which I am NOT
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 13, 2006, 07:48:50 am

all i want you to do is consider the chawawa paradox. thats all.

If there have never been any wild chawawa's  and man selectively bread them into existance, why couldnt we have just done the same to ourselves by selectively picking our mates ?
from ape to human over a period of afew million years.
look I'll explain this one more time, then I'm going off to twitch in a darkened room, selective breeding is when humans select animals with certain traits they like, then they force animals with these traits to mate, evolution is when an animal itself, including humans, selects its own mate based on what it considers to be physical attraction. The reason I was getting insulting is because of accusations that I am some sort of right-wing Evangelical creationist - which I am NOT
Exactly. A Chihuahua would not arise on earth by natural selection. It has very low fitness without human intervention. If the environement was different a Chihuahua might thrive.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 07:53:27 am
at last the return of intelligent debate and understanding rather than petty pooint scoring
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 13, 2006, 08:24:48 am
Like I said, what are we acomplishing here. Its come down to one person saying a chihuahau proves evolution true (even the evolutionist agree that thats stupid) and others repeating themselves. With that said I must make a corection to a misinterpritation of my post.

I do not believe in evolution in the sense of man evolving from apes or any other creation. Man was created as man...man has changed over time through adaption (also mentioned as microevolution). There is a missing link between man and ape for a reason...because there IS no link. What I was saying with my post is that time in heaven is not time on earth. What was 6 days in heaven could have been billions of years in the physical universe. As for the plants being created before the earth started spining...sure why not? How hard would it be for God to do that?

With that said I will try to explain my opinion the best I can. God created man and all the animals but NOT all the breeds. Man migrated on his own to the far corners of the world and over time adapted to his new enviroment. Why are black people black? They migrated to places near the equator where the sun was most harsh and had to adapt by having more skin pigment to protect against UV rays. The same can be said for all animals with different breeds. I dont call it evolution I call it adaption. Why would I cell need to form itself into a complex organism? See the difference? Cells do adapt as well but I have yet to see proof that they evolve.

Also, there are psychos in every group. The fundamentalist of every religion give that religion a bad name because MOST fundamentalist only chose to believe part of there doctorin or make up parts. A perfect example is the terrorist muslims who insist that if they kill themselves in a suicide bombing that they goto heaven and get 70 (or was it 700) virgins. I have a friend who is muslim and says he has NEVER seen anywhere in the quran that says you recieve virgins for dying as a marter. Suicide bombing is just that..suicide so actually those terroist are going to hell based on the actual beliefs of the islamic faith.

Heck, whats so bad about the bible? Sure it has its parts that people think are stupid but if our society followed the fundamentals of the bible it would be a much better place. Seriously, the bible doesnt really go in depth on every step of the evolution of society and the world and all that because its not that important. Whats important is living life as the bible teaches. No not perfect as most would like to believe but christ like (christian means christ like by the way). The bible wants people to be honorable and loyal, to not lie cheat or steal, to be faithful, and respectful. Are those such bad things? Any TRUE christian knows that nobody is perfect. We all sin, even every single christian on earth sins every day. The 7 deadly sins? Thats a load of garbage created by midevil catholics. There are no unforgivable sins, I could kill a man and if I truely felt bad about it and wanted forgivness and accepted Jesus I would be forgivin.The 10 Commandments were rewrittin in a way. Jesus revised them to better fit the world...such as the commandment "love thy  neighbor hate they enemy" Jesus teaches to love all people. Im getting way off topic but I just get sick of all christians being labeled as psycho paths because we believe what we believe and most people that are not christian dont understand the TRUTH in christianity.

Ok, back on topic. If anyone could prove 100% undeniable scientific fact that evolution exists then do so! I admit I can not prove 100% undeniably that God even exists much less that he created the earth but you know what? I really dont care to. Humans naturally are stuborn and dont like to change our views on things so once again why argue a point that will never be resolved untill the end or when science proves the bible wrong? I have faith in the bible, and do not doubt it at all. I guess I have said all I have to say you may flame or you may post a mature respectful arguement but I think this arguement is done. Neither side wins...0 points to creationist and 0 to the "evil athiests legions" its a tie game and only time will tell the winner.


P.S: I suck at grammar and spelling so sorry for any gramatical or spelling errors I did my best  :-\
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: jarnomiedema on March 13, 2006, 08:27:04 am
I find it incredibly unbelievable that there are actually still people around who'd rather believe in the ridiculous fairy-tale of six day creation written down a few thousand years ago by people with little to no knowledge of the world around them instead of accepting the overwhelming amount of scientific proof against their beliefs..

I consider myself lucky to live in a part of the world where the majority of the population has no doubts about the fact that the world and all the creatures on it evolved over billions of years to end up where it is now and does not think something or someone went *poof* and it all just existed..

And yes, I know many of the 'true' believers think the Netherlands (and Amsterdam) is like ancient Sodom and Gomorra, but I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.. Good luck to all you people striving to convince people of the scientific point of view!  ;D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 08:34:04 am

Heck, whats so bad about the bible? Sure it has its parts that people think are stupid but if our society followed the fundamentals of the bible it would be a much better place.

Sorry but your way off, in parts of the world where people are fundamentalist we have women being denied the right to abortion or even a place in society, we have no medical or biotechnological progress, unjust and unfair laws about everything from homosexuality to drug use, and people murdering others using the bible as justification (I'm talking about people shooting abortion doctors and homosexuals here), no I the world was fundamentalist it'd be all out war within a few weeks
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 08:35:06 am
 I belive that all the evoilvtion stuff are none sense theres proof LOTS AND LOTS OF PROOF but how can we kno that god is not doing this so he can judge the faithful and none faithful and its just game no one will get hurt from the game
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 13, 2006, 08:36:47 am
I find it incredibly unbelievable that there are actually still people around who'd rather believe in the ridiculous fairy-tale of six day creation written down a few thousand years ago by people with little to no knowledge of the world around them instead of accepting the overwhelming amount of scientific proof against their beliefs..

I consider myself lucky to live in a part of the world where the majority of the population has no doubts about the fact that the world and all the creatures on it evolved over billions of years to end up where it is now and does not think something or someone went *poof* and it all just existed..

And yes, I know many of the 'true' believers think the Netherlands (and Amsterdam) is like ancient Sodom and Gomorra, but I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.. Good luck to all you people striving to convince people of the scientific point of view!  ;D

Yes, The amount of 'believers' in the Netherlands is shrinking each day even more. I am lucky to life there to.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 08:37:30 am
two things 1 spell check 2 if god did create everything he sure as hell doesn't want us to believe he did, there is so much evidence against creationism that many of them have flipped to the intelligent design/ guided evolution camp
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 13, 2006, 08:39:59 am
You raise some good points. I'll agree that you cant disprove or prove God because if he/she/it exists then he/she/it is not subject to scientific inquiry and is not testable. Evolution at first triumphs over creationsim because it is actually testable (under lab conditions or otherwise) you can set up experiments with paramecia or fruitflies which provide manifold evidence that evolution is the way it works. The idea of creation is untestable.

Science provides ample eveidence that more or less proves evolution exists, if this were not so then intelligent and imapartial people would be loathe to accept it. Unfortunately those people who have been raised on the bible or 'found religion' refuse to look at that evidence or else just arent smart enough to understand it (see questions like 'why are there still apes?').

You may also be interested to know that by studying the rates at which genes mutate and change (as part of 'adaptation' if you like) it can be revealed that humans originated in Africa (yes, that means they were black). Now this isnt a fact which has been revealed by assuming evolution occurs and uses science which even creationists admit to be right. So either adam and eve were black or God (or maybe the flying spaghetti monster) changed the results of countless tests (with his noodley appendages) to somehow test us stupid humans.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 08:48:44 am
for those who wont read that whole post by tuggels it just seys SUBMIT .

btw werechicken sorry for everything i said in previous posts- your one of the good guys i diddnt realise you were just against my grammer and wacky exampels haha sorry.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 08:52:51 am
two things 1 spell check 2 if god did create everything he sure as hell doesn't want us to believe he did, there is so much evidence against creationism that many of them have flipped to the intelligent design/ guided evolution camp

the reason he dosent want to show proof is maybe if ppl belive in evolution and obiselly not him the creator he can judge the faithful those who belive in god all the way but if there was proof he exists then those who really didnt belive him in the first place but just want to go to heaven then they will start "beliving in him"

and we all understand what evolution is i always watch history channel and about evolution and the steps i can name the  steps micro, fishy, big lizard, dino, the mole rat thing, then dino aGAIN then, mole rat again then, apem then humans so were not dumb we kno what evolution is its just i belive something graeter created us
sorry about spelling
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 08:57:18 am
dam Xoatl_169 , you know not long ago say afew hundered years ago , you'd probably be burned at the stake for half the things you take for granted during your regular everyday life.
- driving your car, watching your big tv - listening to your mp3 - chatting on the net  .......     Isnt science great ?? yes it is,,  and your slowing it down with your kind of talk.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 08:57:42 am
my point was that if God created us then he made us to be smart(more-or-less), curious(same here) and adaptable to new things(and again) and not to simply blindly follow things without questioning them (can you see where I'm going here?) So I'll stand by my original point if god made man, and everything else, he clearly doesn't want the credit.

P.S apology accepted alti
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 13, 2006, 09:01:44 am
I just have no reason to believe in any god. Humans can watch for themselfs. (don't know if that's the correct term)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 13, 2006, 09:07:11 am
You raise some good points. I'll agree that you cant disprove or prove God because if he/she/it exists then he/she/it is not subject to scientific inquiry and is not testable. Evolution at first triumphs over creationsim because it is actually testable (under lab conditions or otherwise) you can set up experiments with paramecia or fruitflies which provide manifold evidence that evolution is the way it works. The idea of creation is untestable.

Science provides ample eveidence that more or less proves evolution exists, if this were not so then intelligent and imapartial people would be loathe to accept it. Unfortunately those people who have been raised on the bible or 'found religion' refuse to look at that evidence or else just arent smart enough to understand it (see questions like 'why are there still apes?').

You may also be interested to know that by studying the rates at which genes mutate and change (as part of 'adaptation' if you like) it can be revealed that humans originated in Africa (yes, that means they were black). Now this isnt a fact which has been revealed by assuming evolution occurs and uses science which even creationists admit to be right. So either adam and eve were black or God (or maybe the flying spaghetti monster) changed the results of countless tests (with his noodley appendages) to somehow test us stupid humans.

Your absolutly right about adam and eve being black, or possibly middle eastern in apearance. I do not believe adam and eve...or moses or even jesus looked as 99.9% of paintings and pictures portray him, as a european white man. Because they werent, they all origonated in the middle east/africa therefor its virtually imposible that they looked they way they are painted. As for evolution, if you have sources for these studies that prove it I would be more then happy to read them and understand them to the best of my ability. I, personally, have yet to see these studies but I will not deny they are out there I just do not know where so if you would be so kind as to enlighten me of their locations?


Heck, whats so bad about the bible? Sure it has its parts that people think are stupid but if our society followed the fundamentals of the bible it would be a much better place.

Sorry but your way off, in parts of the world where people are fundamentalist we have women being denied the right to abortion or even a place in society, we have no medical or biotechnological progress, unjust and unfair laws about everything from homosexuality to drug use, and people murdering others using the bible as justification (I'm talking about people shooting abortion doctors and homosexuals here), no I the world was fundamentalist it'd be all out war within a few weeks

Once again I was misinterpreted. I do not mean base our society off fundamental beliefs that God hates homosexuals and that abortionists should be killed etc etc. I mean our society based off the TRUE fundamentals of the bible. Do not kill, steal, cheat, show respect to others, if someone insults or hurts you turn the other cheek, and love all. That sorta thing. One thing I hate today is all the people in America who are outside military funerals saying God killed them because America supports homosexuals. How far from the truth can this be? The bible is full of love and compasion for ALL mankind. Yes, the bible does say that homosexuality is wrong but it never says that God hates the homosexuals. As a matter of fact it says God weaps (sp?) for one of his children to go astray but hopes for him/her to return to Him.

Personally? I do believe homosexuality is wrong, but I dont hate any homosexuals. Homosexuality is a sin but I believe that a homosexual can come to Jesus just as any other person so long as he/she accepts Jesus. As for abortion, once again I do agree that it is wrong. You may not want the child but is that any reason to prevent the child from living a good life? Adoption is so much more acceptable to me then abortion. BUT do I think doctor or abortion patients should be killed? No, once again, one of the 10 commandments that was not "revised" by Jesus was "Thou shalt not kill." Why is one life any more valueable then another?

It is a shame that todays society has degraded to the point it is. Many want freedom but cannot have it because of the fundamentalist or the psychotics (both seem to be growing in number). Its due to these two groups that the governments of the free world must pass more and more laws restricting freedom. And also due to these psychos (hitler, sadam, castro) and fundamentalist (osama) in positions of power and in control of entire contries that cause the wars of today. The bible's central focus is on love. Love is where we went wrong, people no longer love one another. Yes, here it comes, a quote from the bible! (RUN FOR THE HILLS HE IS A FUNDAMENTALIST!(yes Im being sarcastic)) 1 Corinthians 13:8-"All the special gifts and powers from God will someday come to an end, but love goes on forever. someday prohecy, and speaking in unknown languages, and speacial knowledge-these gifst will disappear." Love is the key to a peaceful world and untill humans as a whole can learn love and compasion for others we will NEVER have peace. I see the rate of downfall of modern society and I know that the end is near. Not necisarily in our lifetime but in the near future. There will be one of two outcomes in my opinion. The 1st: The bible was right, the end times prophecies begin to come true and the earth expierences the 7 years of tribulation, OR the 2nd: Extension, humans continue on their path of hatred, continueing on their downward spiral to a mess nothing but wars disease and famin ending in the end of human life as we know it through our own creations. (atomic war and such) I still hold by what I said in my previous post: its a tie game and only time will tell who will prevail.


for those who wont read that whole post by tuggels it just seys SUBMIT .

btw werechicken sorry for everything i said in previous posts- your one of the good guys i diddnt realise you were just against my grammer and wacky exampels haha sorry.

I say whats the point? What are we achieving besides saying "Im right your wrong" "no, Im right your wrong." I know and Im sure I speak for most creationist here that our views will not change, and same goes for evolution. All I ask is not to be insulted because most people dont truely understand the Christian faith. The reason being the fundementalists are the ones that you see in our daily lives not the normal christian like me who just wants to be accepted for his beliefs not hated.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 09:14:33 am
okay fair points, and it makes a pleasant change to be having a debate where you get the impression that if you try hard enough you will at least shift their opinions a little, but I digress(word of the day toilet paper) Many of the ideal in the bible are both noble and good, and it is a shame that more people can't live their lives by these principles, but each person needs to decide how they should live their lives, not be told how to live their lives, even if they are living their life wrong based upon your opinion. We learn from our mistakes, and time is the greatest teacher(wow how cheesy was that line, but pertinant, toilet paper again, nevertheless)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Spriggand on March 13, 2006, 09:16:30 am
You're a good person tuggles. Keep the faith.


My other qualm with evolution is that I have yet to see selective breeding turn an animal into a different kind of animal. Naturally, if evolution was true, the process would take millions of years, but with selective breeding speeding the process, shouldn't we have new species by now? And what about Laonastes aenigmamus, discovered in Laos? We have fossils of it that scientists believe are 11 million years old, yet here we have a living specimen, pretty much unchanged by 11 million years of "evolution". If evolution is correct, species are always changing. Why didn't laonastes, even if it was isolated? The same can be said of the coelocanth (sp?), a fish long believed to be extinct until fishermen off the coast of Africa hauled one in some time in the mid 30s. Again, another species virtually unchanged compared to ancient fossils, and better yet, this one was far from isolated!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 09:20:44 am


ok spriggand -
Quote
I have yet to see selective breeding turn an animal into a different kind of animal


hows this for a new animal, we have spliced a jelly fish with a mouse and made it glow in the dark. - bbc article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/590919.stm
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 13, 2006, 09:21:25 am
okay fair points, and it makes a pleasant change to be having a debate where you get the impression that if you try hard enough you will at least shift their opinions a little, but I digress(word of the day toilet paper) Many of the ideal in the bible are both noble and good, and it is a shame that more people can't live their lives by these principles, but each person needs to decide how they should live their lives, not be told how to live their lives, even if they are living their life wrong based upon your opinion. We learn from our mistakes, and time is the greatest teacher(wow how cheesy was that line, but pertinant, toilet paper again, nevertheless)

I completely agree with you on this. Live your life the way you want to live it. I am non denomination christian because, yes I do believe in God and I believe in the bible but I believe most churches make the bible as a law book instead of a guidline for good life. I live my life like most, goto work every day, come home relax, play some games, cuddle up with my fiance. The only difference is I have a goal, it isnt wealth or fame its Heaven. So I live my life the best I CAN. God doesnt expect you to follow every rule to the letter. If you donot wish to follow any of the teachings of the bible then thats your decision to make. God gave us a great gift, its free will. God wants people to believe in him because THEY want to believe in Him not because there is no options. Its like someone else posted. God could EASILY prove himself but why? All that would acomplish is FORCING everyone to believe even if they dont want to. God loves us all and wants us to come to him on our own.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 09:23:58 am
tuggels is telling you to SUBMIT
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 13, 2006, 09:25:30 am


ok spriggand -
Quote
I have yet to see selective breeding turn an animal into a different kind of animal


hows this for a new animal, we have spliced a jelly fish with a mouse and made it glow in the dark. - bbc article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/590919.stm

While that is very intersting and downright kinda cool that is not evolution through selective breeding. You cannot mate a jelly fish with a mouse they genetically engineered. Besides that it still is not another animal completely it is still a mouse just one that glows in the dark.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 13, 2006, 09:27:46 am
You're a good person tuggles. Keep the faith.


My other qualm with evolution is that I have yet to see selective breeding turn an animal into a different kind of animal. Naturally, if evolution was true, the process would take millions of years, but with selective breeding speeding the process, shouldn't we have new species by now? And what about Laonastes aenigmamus, discovered in Laos? We have fossils of it that scientists believe are 11 million years old, yet here we have a living specimen, pretty much unchanged by 11 million years of "evolution". If evolution is correct, species are always changing. Why didn't laonastes, even if it was isolated? The same can be said of the coelocanth (sp?), a fish long believed to be extinct until fishermen off the coast of Africa hauled one in some time in the mid 30s. Again, another species virtually unchanged compared to ancient fossils, and better yet, this one was far from isolated!

It isn't said that a species has to change. Maybe those species didn't had to change to survive.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 09:28:10 am
- or is it a jelly fish that looks like a mouse, are we apes that look like men, are we man that think like apes ? you have to think about these things, is the mouse less of what he origionaly was or is he a new species of mouse jelly fish..
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 13, 2006, 09:29:45 am
- or is it a jelly fish that looks like a mouse, are we apes that look like men, are we man that think like apes ? you have to think about these things, is the mouse less of what he origionaly was or is he a new species of mouse jelly fish..

What's you point?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 09:35:39 am
with selective breeding it is very difficult to create two new species by selective breeding, because even in the wild the amount of genetic drift is something like a hundred thousand years in higher organism, mammals, birds reptiles.
Also you can't splice a mouse with a jelly-fish and even if you could that would not prove anything over than the fact that you have spliced a mouse and a jellyfish, we're not debating genetics here we're debating evolution
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 13, 2006, 09:36:18 am
tuggels is telling you to SUBMIT

I am not saying submit I am asking the point of the arguement? It is achieving nothing. Unless Karkow or another evolutions can provide the studies they say exists (not saying they dont). Then this arguement might actually get somewhere.

- or is it a jelly fish that looks like a mouse, are we apes that look like men, are we man that think like apes ? you have to think about these things, is the mouse less of what he origionaly was or is he a new species of mouse jelly fish..


He is not a new speicies, all that was changed was the addition of the gene that makes jelly flourecent. That is the only charecteristic it got from the jelly fish. Besides the point, that is not evolution its genetic engineering. The difference is genetic engineering cannot and will not occure in nature. How would a mouse get the gene from a jelly fish injected into its embryo otherwise?

ape n. Any of various large, tailless Old World primates of the family Pongidae, including the chimpanzee, gorilla, gibbon, and orangutan.

By definition humans are not apes. Apes are from the Pongidae family humans are from the Hominidae family.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 09:39:42 am

By definition humans are not apes. Apes are from the Pongidae family humans are from the Homo family specifically homo sapiens but there has been others in the homo family that have sense gone extent. For example: Homo Erectus


Sorry but we are descended from apes Homo is an offshoot of the Pondigidae family or whatever was close to it at the rise of the family Homo
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 09:40:24 am
dam Xoatl_169 , you know not long ago say afew hundered years ago , you'd probably be burned at the stake for half the things you take for granted during your regular everyday life.
- driving your car, watching your big tv - listening to your mp3 - chatting on the net  .......     Isnt science great ?? yes it is,,  and your slowing it down with your kind of talk.

lol ur mean and let the siencetist practice there witchcraft...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 09:41:43 am
dam Xoatl_169 , you know not long ago say afew hundered years ago , you'd probably be burned at the stake for half the things you take for granted during your regular everyday life.
- driving your car, watching your big tv - listening to your mp3 - chatting on the net  .......     Isnt science great ?? yes it is,,  and your slowing it down with your kind of talk.

lol ur mean and let the siencetist practice there witchcraft...

Quite are I shall splice you with alti's Jelly-mouse
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 13, 2006, 09:41:57 am
You're a good person tuggles. Keep the faith.


My other qualm with evolution is that I have yet to see selective breeding turn an animal into a different kind of animal. Naturally, if evolution was true, the process would take millions of years, but with selective breeding speeding the process, shouldn't we have new species by now? And what about Laonastes aenigmamus, discovered in Laos? We have fossils of it that scientists believe are 11 million years old, yet here we have a living specimen, pretty much unchanged by 11 million years of "evolution". If evolution is correct, species are always changing. Why didn't laonastes, even if it was isolated? The same can be said of the coelocanth (sp?), a fish long believed to be extinct until fishermen off the coast of Africa hauled one in some time in the mid 30s. Again, another species virtually unchanged compared to ancient fossils, and better yet, this one was far from isolated!
selective breeding only guides evolution. It doesnt accelerate it that much. But look at our old friend the Chihuahua, it certainly would be incapable of breeding with a St Bernard. Species arent the totally distinct things they are made out to be, a donkey can breed with a horse but the offspring is infertile (an ass) while other horse-like animals produce fertile offspring and others cant interbreed at all. The dog being the oldest domestic animal it would be among the first to display speciation (in another few hundred-thousand years :P) nothing can accelerate evolution that much. In fact its better to measure evolutionary 'progress' in generations rather than years. Things like fruitfly are useful to scientists because they breed so rapidly and random mutations can be detected and studied vey quickly.

And stop saying Evolutionist! There is no such thing as 'evolutionism'. It is not a religion, as much as you would like it to be... or you can start calling us all Gravitationists and Bigbangists and relativatyists if youd like ::)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 09:42:55 am
Quote
Besides that it still is not another animal completely it is still a mouse just one that glows in the dark.


A mouse that glows in the dark because its part jelly fish is no longer a mouse, it is a hybrid of 2 species but it is still whole.
They have also spliced the DNA of a spider onto goats, the effect is that the goats milk has large amounts of a raw material resembeling spider web.  

i'l give you my point in the form of a question - does the fact that we can mess with "gods" building blocks of life prove he never existed in the first place ?  were we supposed to be able to change these building blocks around to creat new creatures he did not want on this world...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 09:46:41 am
Wow I'm siding with the religous on this one.... makes a change
No alti messing around with the genome does not disprove god, it is merely a higher form of selective breeding, also It would still be a mouse if it has only a couple of jelly-fish genes, as I believe that it could still mate with other mice and produce viable offspring
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 09:48:45 am
so would there be a point where it would stop being a mouse and start being a jellyfish ?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 09:49:43 am
dam Xoatl_169 , you know not long ago say afew hundered years ago , you'd probably be burned at the stake for half the things you take for granted during your regular everyday life.
- driving your car, watching your big tv - listening to your mp3 - chatting on the net  .......     Isnt science great ?? yes it is,,  and your slowing it down with your kind of talk.

lol ur mean and let the siencetist practice there witchcraft...

Quite are I shall splice you with alti's Jelly-mouse

lol never eat goatweb!

and like someone said a few pages back that its only wrong if u start praiseing the game let Evolutiontist belive in what they want and christians in what they want
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 09:50:39 am
Yes when the mouse could not physically breed with other mice, or the genetic difference is so big that their offspring won't develop, or are born infertile
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 09:51:20 am
i say we selectively breed the creationists with sea cucumbers and let them sit at the bottom of the ocean looking dumb. -because its too crowded up here..
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 09:52:34 am
i say we selectively breed the creationists with sea cucumbers and let them sit at the bottom of the ocean looking dumb. -because its too crowded up here..
lol thats a good idea
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 09:54:41 am
i say we selectively breed the creationists with sea cucumbers and let them sit at the bottom of the ocean looking dumb. -because its too crowded up here..

*twitch* so much wrong with that *twitch*
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 09:55:57 am
lets say we get to the point of where we can geneticly enhance anything we want with whatever traits we want.. so roughly 600 years from now...

Quote
Yes when the mouse could not physically breed with other mice, or the genetic difference is so big that their offspring won't develop, or are born infertile

say we made an animal that could pass its genetic traits to any other genome ? yes i say its entirly plausable, what do we do then ?

If we get to the stage where everything could breed with one another like a monkey goat spider plant zebra man - would we finaly then see that life is just that.- alive with no boundaries or barriers,
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 13, 2006, 09:57:14 am

By definition humans are not apes. Apes are from the Pongidae family humans are from the Homo family specifically homo sapiens but there has been others in the homo family that have sense gone extent. For example: Homo Erectus


Sorry but we are descended from apes Homo is an offshoot of the Pondigidae family or whatever was close to it at the rise of the family Homo

Actually humans and apes branch off at primate, both are primates but both are not apes. Apes are pongidae humans are hominidae. That is getting far to techniqual for my feeble fundamentalist mind.

Quote
Besides that it still is not another animal completely it is still a mouse just one that glows in the dark.


A mouse that glows in the dark because its part jelly fish is no longer a mouse, it is a hybrid of 2 species but it is still whole.
They have also spliced the DNA of a spider onto goats, the effect is that the goats milk has large amounts of a raw material resembeling spider web.  

i'l give you my point in the form of a question - does the fact that we can mess with "gods" building blocks of life prove he never existed in the first place ?  were we supposed to be able to change these building blocks around to creat new creatures he did not want on this world...

To answer your question, no it doesnt disprove anything. Like said before God created the base of Earth but has taken a rather hands off approach to the development of it. Did God create that walls of your house? Or even the tree that the wood came from? No, he created the ancesotor of that tree but the tree had offspring who changed and so on and so on untill one day a human came along choped it down and turned it into a house. The point is. God created us as naturally inquisitive creatures. Of course we will do things like splicing genes...whats the harm if it benifits humanity? Im well aware of that goat, the did that as a viable way to harvest spider silk because of its incredibly strong tensle(sp?) strength. It benifits humanity so who cares? If we can genetically create a cure for disease then all the better. Even if the "jelly mouse" were to become a completely new speicies it proves nothing for the origonal arguement of evolution vs creation.

And stop saying Evolutionist! There is no such thing as 'evolutionism'. It is not a religion, as much as you would like it to be... or you can start calling us all Gravitationists and Bigbangists and relativatyists if youd like ::)

Its just easyer to say evolutionists instead of those the believe in evolution.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 13, 2006, 09:59:23 am
lets say we get to the point of where we can geneticly enhance anything we want with whatever traits we want.. so roughly 600 years from now...

Quote
Yes when the mouse could not physically breed with other mice, or the genetic difference is so big that their offspring won't develop, or are born infertile

say we made an animal that could pass its genetic traits to any other genome ? yes i say its entirly plausable, what do we do then ?

If we get to the stage where everything could breed with one another like a monkey goat spider plant zebra man - would we finaly then see that life is just that.- alive with no boundaries or barriers,

Quite frankly that is just disturbing. Why would you WANT and what benifet would you get from interbreading a man with a zebra? Genetics takes SELECTIVE genes and splices them in to enhance the creature. Also, I donot think a plant and zebra could ever breed.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:02:36 am
if our own civilisation gets far enough to become galactic gods - all the code is right there, if we unlock the right aspects or ourselves and can form a species that takes bits and pieces from every other life form on the planet, are we less than we were or more ? does the fact that we can asimilate other aspects of species into one another dilute lifes design ?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:02:55 am
lets say we get to the point of where we can geneticly enhance anything we want with whatever traits we want.. so roughly 600 years from now...

Quote
Yes when the mouse could not physically breed with other mice, or the genetic difference is so big that their offspring won't develop, or are born infertile

say we made an animal that could pass its genetic traits to any other genome ? yes i say its entirly plausable, what do we do then ?

If we get to the stage where everything could breed with one another like a monkey goat spider plant zebra man - would we finaly then see that life is just that.- alive with no boundaries or barriers,

Quite frankly that is just disturbing. Why would you WANT and what benifet would you get from interbreading a man with a zebra? Genetics takes SELECTIVE genes and splices them in to enhance the creature. Also, I donot think a plant and zebra could ever breed.

I'd like to add to that, the thing you'd make would be so horribly messed up that the ethics committee would force feed you through the shredder
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:07:31 am
Quote
I'd like to add to that, the thing you'd make would be so horribly messed up that the ethics committee would force feed you through the shredder

i think the act of putting something through a shredder is much worse than the act of creating the being.

some things that are gross one day are the norms the next. 
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:09:52 am
I think creating a creature which is part man and spends it life in agony would earn you your place in said shredder
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:10:42 am
why would said creature be in agony ???? you plainly just added that in-
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 10:11:25 am

By definition humans are not apes. Apes are from the Pongidae family humans are from the Homo family specifically homo sapiens but there has been others in the homo family that have sense gone extent. For example: Homo Erectus


Sorry but we are descended from apes Homo is an offshoot of the Pondigidae family or whatever was close to it at the rise of the family Homo

Actually humans and apes branch off at primate, both are primates but both are not apes. Apes are pongidae humans are hominidae. That is getting far to techniqual for my feeble fundamentalist mind.

Quote
Besides that it still is not another animal completely it is still a mouse just one that glows in the dark.


A mouse that glows in the dark because its part jelly fish is no longer a mouse, it is a hybrid of 2 species but it is still whole.
They have also spliced the DNA of a spider onto goats, the effect is that the goats milk has large amounts of a raw material resembeling spider web.  

i'l give you my point in the form of a question - does the fact that we can mess with "gods" building blocks of life prove he never existed in the first place ?  were we supposed to be able to change these building blocks around to creat new creatures he did not want on this world...

To answer your question, no it doesnt disprove anything. Like said before God created the base of Earth but has taken a rather hands off approach to the development of it. Did God create that walls of your house? Or even the tree that the wood came from? No, he created the ancesotor of that tree but the tree had offspring who changed and so on and so on untill one day a human came along choped it down and turned it into a house. The point is. God created us as naturally inquisitive creatures. Of course we will do things like splicing genes...whats the harm if it benifits humanity? Im well aware of that goat, the did that as a viable way to harvest spider silk because of its incredibly strong tensle(sp?) strength. It benifits humanity so who cares? If we can genetically create a cure for disease then all the better. Even if the "jelly mouse" were to become a completely new speicies it proves nothing for the origonal arguement of evolution vs creation.

And stop saying Evolutionist! There is no such thing as 'evolutionism'. It is not a religion, as much as you would like it to be... or you can start calling us all Gravitationists and Bigbangists and relativatyists if youd like ::)

Its just easyer to say evolutionists instead of those the believe in evolution.

tuggles is right preatty much what his saying is god made the unvirse and then it took its own coure isnt that right Jacky Chan?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:13:21 am
why would said creature be in agony ???? you plainly just added that in-

The creature would have so many genetic disorder, that it couldn't help but be in pain
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:14:09 am
apart from getting into a discussion like  

"no he diddnt"
"Yes he did!!!!"
"no he diddnt"
"Yes he did!!!!"
"no he diddnt"
"Yes he did!!!!"

try to give your own opinion- i'd like creationists to put their views in the form of questions- its easier and maby we can give them some clarity that they are lacking.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 10:15:24 am
why would said creature be in agony ???? you plainly just added that in-

The creature would have so many genetic disorder, that it couldn't help but be in pain

yea exaclty didnt u watch the south park epsoide with that evil disgusting cult that whats to save aniimals and a guy had u kno what with a llama and the baby was half llama half human and it was pleading for someone to kill it
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:17:22 am
yeah werechicken - look
Quote
The creature would have so many genetic disorder, that it couldn't help but be in pain

ok, to clarify, in the course of say 1000 years from now, genetics would have come along way, hell 2000 years then. thats the kind of timeframe i'm talking about.
not talking about going down the garden shed next wednesday and splicing your dog with my pet eguana..  i'm saying that eventualy anything will be possoble with genetics. and cristian creationist faiths wont hold up -
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 10:19:07 am
yeah werechicken - look
Quote
The creature would have so many genetic disorder, that it couldn't help but be in pain

ok, to clarify, in the course of say 1000 years from now, genetics would have come along way, hell 2000 years then. thats the kind of timeframe i'm talking about.
not talking about going down the garden shed next wednesday and splicing your dog with my pet eguana..  saying that eventualy anything will be possoble with genetics.

lol i just love this splicing thing evey post about spilcing makes me laugh
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:21:04 am
assuming that you could fix so many problems why would you want to?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:22:51 am
Quote
assuming that you could fix so many problems why would you want to?

are you kidding ?  what if you got the genetic trait of a tourtise that lives for 450 years, with the geneticly spliced limbs made of gecko meat that would regrow if they were damaged.. ???

it might sound rediculious but its all compleatly plausable.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:25:30 am
yes but you where talking about 6 different things, oone of which was a plant, nothing good could come from that
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:27:05 am
what if you could feed from sunlight ?  that would stop world hunger..

and i used only 6 things as an example, but realy there wouldnt be any limits. you could mould 600 things together. a creature with 4 sets of eyes, each eye picking up a different colour on the spectrum, even ultraviolet fish eyes..
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:30:19 am
what if you could feed from sunlight ?  that would stop world hunger..

photosynthesis only provides a way of converting carbon dioxide into sugar, you still need water for this, in many countries where hunger is the main killer their is also a lack of wated, so they have no crops which is why they're hungry
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:31:41 am
then you give them the membranes of sea molusk so they can absorb salt water, theres no limits..
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:33:00 am
many of those countries are land-locked
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:35:55 am
stop that-  ok fine then they would geneticaly splice wings onto their bodies, massively huge wings that are ultra lite, ?  ? ?
either that or land locked helpless people that are starving and need water will be harvested for their organs and forgotten about.

-snap
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 10:37:25 am
stop that-  ok fine then they would geneticaly splice wings onto their bodies, massively huge wings that are ultra lite, ?  ? ?
either that or land locked helpless people that are starving and need water will be harvested for their organs and forgotten about.

ooh how can u beat that!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 13, 2006, 10:38:40 am
stop that-  ok fine then they would geneticaly splice wings onto their bodies, massively huge wings that are ultra lite, ?  ? ?
either that or land locked helpless people that are starving and need water will be harvested for their organs and forgotten about.

So we are going to become photosythensizing, tortuse slow, regenerating, flying, mulusk skined, purple people eaters?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 10:39:48 am
stop that-  ok fine then they would geneticaly splice wings onto their bodies, massively huge wings that are ultra lite, ?  ? ?
either that or land locked helpless people that are starving and need water will be harvested for their organs and forgotten about.

So we are going to become photosythensizing, tortuse slow, regenerating, flying, mulusk skined, purple people eaters?

lol.... this converstion is getting silly
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 13, 2006, 10:41:31 am
stop that-  ok fine then they would geneticaly splice wings onto their bodies, massively huge wings that are ultra lite, ?  ? ?
either that or land locked helpless people that are starving and need water will be harvested for their organs and forgotten about.

So we are going to become photosythensizing, tortuse slow, regenerating, flying, mulusk skined, purple people eaters?

lol.... this converstion is getting silly

Your right, we probably wouldnt be purple.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:42:21 am
stop that-  ok fine then they would geneticaly splice wings onto their bodies, massively huge wings that are ultra lite, ?  ? ?
either that or land locked helpless people that are starving and need water will be harvested for their organs and forgotten about.

So we are going to become photosythensizing, tortuse slow, regenerating, flying, mulusk skined, purple people eaters?

this may be the topic which kills me
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 10:42:33 am
stop that-  ok fine then they would geneticaly splice wings onto their bodies, massively huge wings that are ultra lite, ?  ? ?
either that or land locked helpless people that are starving and need water will be harvested for their organs and forgotten about.

So we are going to become photosythensizing, tortuse slow, regenerating, flying, mulusk skined, purple people eaters?

lol.... this converstion is getting silly

Your right, we probably wouldnt be purple.

yea thats right will be blue ... i like blue
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:42:38 am
yes we will become all that and more, and why not...  its compleatly plausible. the code is there its a matter of changing it.


but you will have your organs harvested for testing.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 10:43:44 am
yes we will become all that and more, and why not...  its compleatly plausible. the code is there its a matter of changing it.


but you will have your organs harvested for testing.

... waaaa!!!!!! the futres scary
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:44:21 am
MY BRAIN!!! I can't feel my brain!!!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 10:45:47 am
MY BRAIN!!! I can't feel my brain!!!

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... stop it stop scaying me! lol
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:47:44 am
want to know whats scary ?

Being nuked for no reason in the middle of the night over oil prices and fundementalist religions.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 13, 2006, 10:49:53 am

Its official...this topic has completely left all normalcy and on topicness stuff...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:51:32 am
ah the simple days of religion Vs evolution
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 13, 2006, 10:52:43 am
ah the simple days of religion Vs evolution
Religion should NOT have a problem with evolution. Were talking about creation vs evolution.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:54:18 am
oops sorry thats another forum I was on, anyway I think this topics rapidly heading to the twilight zone
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 10:55:43 am
how rude we were in the middle of an arguement thank you very much,
you trot in like an annoying little sister with spagetti sause on your face  and ask us to get back to the origional topic.

maby we were about to swing back on topic without your quaint little reminder
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 10:57:59 am
alti is scary
  ::)  and go back to the normel things
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 10:58:51 am
mate, you where talking about creating a gecko tortoise and ending world hunger by turning everyone into giant flying plant,mollusk people, there's no way to come back from that
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 11:00:22 am
no to the normel topic about religon and evolution not splicing Jeans
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 11:00:29 am
damit Xoatl_169  
When i find your plannet the sky will burn ,seriously, i'l just paint it with a big red target and blow it out of the sky.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 11:01:15 am
whoah kids lets play nice now
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 11:02:00 am
dude i cant actualy blow him up dont worry..
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 11:02:13 am
damit Xoatl_169  
When i find your plannet the sky will burn ,seriously, i'l just paint it with a big red target and blow it out of the sky.

ahhhh help me chicken his scaying my octuos are in danger
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 11:03:20 am
when I find both your planets I will combine all your creatures, then you'll have to get allong
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 11:04:36 am
when I find both your planets I will combine all your creatures, then you'll have to get allong

ahh ur with him about splicing u will never take me alive
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 11:07:47 am
wow, i wonder how moderators keep the peace? maybe they sense disquite amongst the forums and then swoop in to save the day, or they have a hundred thousand monkeys checking each forum to make sure we're getting along - these are super intelligent monkeys mind you.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 11:09:21 am
we are all getting along, this is light intelegent discussion and nothing more. except when creationists start spouting dogma at me, that a little weird...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 11:09:46 am
wow, i wonder how moderators keep the peace? maybe they sense disquite amongst the forums and then swoop in to save the day, or they have a hundred thousand monkeys checking each forum to make sure we're getting along - these are super intelligent monkeys mind you.

lol the monkey theory is more realistic becuase ppl dont have special senses they cant even hear, touch smell, or see oh pitafull humans
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 11:13:39 am
what was the original topic anyway?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 11:15:01 am
it was very general, would creationists revolt against this game and why, or something.. it quickly got offtopic because people want to talk about other stuff i guess..

yeah  this was it -   
Quote
*prepares to argue with lots of christians over the internet*
Thoughts?
  this is a thoughts and discussion thread so none of what has been said is off topic thank you very much...

i'd much rather be talking about creating a gecko tortoise and ending world hunger by turning everyone into giant flying plant,mollusk people
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 13, 2006, 11:21:27 am
Ahh new blood, so fun watching you guys grow up, i was you not a few months back, of cource we are all children compared to Krakow :P
I grow tired of your childish bickering! Farewell :P.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Spriggand on March 13, 2006, 11:23:26 am
You know things have gone crazy when you have to go back 6 pages to find responses to a post you made merely 2 hours ago.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 11:24:59 am
theres just so much love in this room right now what can i say.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 11:27:00 am
I'd like to thank god.... or the common ancestor, whichever one you believe in
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 11:37:28 am
WHOA! am i late! just to say, when i said that we are flaws and perfect, i meant that our flaws make us perfect. if we were perfect then we wouldn't need to adapt, then we wouldn't learn, then we would be an animal(which we technically are). if we were created by god perfect, then we would be all intelligent, thus nothing to learn, thus no point in life but to live. witch is quite sad. remember, these are only my veiws, not attacks or debates. how about we just share facts and information, if we want to say that a fact is wrong, give proof and do it in a respectful way. you never got someone to beleive in evolution by fighting, did you?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 11:39:33 am
i dont care if people dont beleive in evolution, it just shows they are less evolved. and lower on the food chain. "sharpens knife and fork"
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 11:42:44 am
i dont care if people dont beleive in evolution, it just shows they are less evolved. and lower on the food chain. "sharpens knife and fork"

No it shows that they are less informed ,if your willing to eat them then you're the one whos less evolved
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 11:43:37 am
yes in human land the smarter live. dude, people can believe in whatever they want. they are NOT you. even if they believe in something physically weird, none o your beeswax. :)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: alti on March 13, 2006, 11:44:57 am
dude i'm not realy going to eat someone.. dont worry.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 11:49:24 am
dude i'm not realy going to eat someone.. dont worry.
oh thank god, that is a worry of my mind...... can you sense the sarcasm?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: xnodas on March 13, 2006, 12:35:10 pm
Ok basically, religion is just another "thing" that we have not been able to prove wrong, yet.  It's like when the world was believed to be flat or the Earth was in the center of the universe.  It will be proven wrong just those two other theories were, but since we don't have the exact technology to do so, religion will still be here.  If you honestly believe that an entity created everything in 7 days, you are ill in many ways.  It's like saying you can fly, seriously.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Lizardbeth on March 13, 2006, 12:45:22 pm
You COULD even argue that this is an "Inteligent design" game, for the sake of calming the hard-core christians down.... since the evolution in the game is directed and engineered by a player and not inherently random.  The changes are not inheriently random mutations as is the classic Darwin theory of evolution, they are specificly and conciously put into place by an inteligent player acting as a "God" figure.  IMO Inteligent design is a load of bull, but it isn't that far of a stretch to apply it to this game.   
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: xnodas on March 13, 2006, 12:53:02 pm
I'd tell them to shut up and not buy the game if they don't want it.  Aren't you not suppose to impose your religion on others.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 13, 2006, 02:46:04 pm
Are you still going at it?  ::)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SpecialBrownies on March 13, 2006, 02:50:40 pm
Those silly Christians.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 02:58:39 pm
i dont care if people dont beleive in evolution, it just shows they are less evolved. and lower on the food chain. "sharpens knife and fork"
LOL
I don't believe in that  ;D

BTW (everyone) 2 reasons I don't like these debates
a.  Everyone frantically tries to topple the oppositions argument
b. [Energizer bunny reference]
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Spriggand on March 13, 2006, 03:08:08 pm
Those silly Christians.

What makes us any sillier than atheists? Or scientologists? Or zoroastrians? We're all just tiny specks of life, living our fleeting lives on a single ball of rock in the middle of an impossibly vast universe!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 13, 2006, 03:09:09 pm
the reason is simple, easy target, Christians take on the chin as taught.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 03:09:46 pm
I go to sleep for a few hours and look at what happens...
Also I have never seen a fundamentalis take anything, ever, not even the facts
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 03:17:50 pm
im cristian and i find evoltion silly becuase like i said who can u be 100% sure that what were doing is a plot from god to see if were faithfull and i see that religon wins other evoliton becuase this is a statestic 97% of the world belive in a god while 3% JUST plainlly dont belive in any god whats so ever, either there creantists or aithests they dont belive in a god
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 03:23:07 pm
im cristian and i find evoltion silly becuase like i said who can u be 100% sure that what were doing is a plot from god to see if were faithfull and i see that religon wins other evoliton becuase this is a statestic 97% of the world belive in a god while 3% JUST plainlly dont belive in any god whats so ever, either there creantists or aithests they dont belive in a god
"when I was little I used to believe I had an invisible friend who I could talk to and would grant me wishes, then I grew up and stopped believing in god" - Jimmy Carr This is a fairly good indication of mosts peoples 'belief' in god, only 3% say that they're atheist because they're actually bothered to write it down. evolution is vastly more believed than god.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 03:25:05 pm
im cristian and i find evoltion silly becuase like i said who can u be 100% sure that what were doing is a plot from god to see if were faithfull and i see that religon wins other evoliton becuase this is a statestic 97% of the world belive in a god while 3% JUST plainlly dont belive in any god whats so ever, either there creantists or aithests they dont belive in a god
"when I was little i used to believe I had an invisible friend who I could talk to and would grant me wishes, then I grew up and stopped believing in god" - Jimmy Carr This is a fairly good indication of mosts peoples 'belief' in god, only 3% say that they're atheist because they're actually bothered to write it down. evolution is vastly more believed than god.
Do you live in America?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 03:26:36 pm
In England, thankfully a very secular country
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 03:26:40 pm
im cristian and i find evoltion silly becuase like i said who can u be 100% sure that what were doing is a plot from god to see if were faithfull and i see that religon wins other evoliton becuase this is a statestic 97% of the world belive in a god while 3% JUST plainlly dont belive in any god whats so ever, either there creantists or aithests they dont belive in a god
"when I was little i used to believe I had an invisible friend who I could talk to and would grant me wishes, then I grew up and stopped believing in god" - Jimmy Carr This is a fairly good indication of mosts peoples 'belief' in god, only 3% say that they're atheist because they're actually bothered to write it down. evolution is vastly more believed than god.
Do you live in America?

no canada and im just quoteing a artcile i saw about statistics
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 03:29:32 pm
In England, thankfully a very secular country
That's what my hunch was.   :D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 03:34:37 pm
In England, thankfully a very secular country
That's what my hunch was.   :D
Although Tony Blair is now saying god told him to go into an illegal war for oil and kill thousands of muslims, so back to the 'good' old days.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 13, 2006, 03:38:15 pm
im cristian and i find evoltion silly becuase like i said who can u be 100% sure that what were doing is a plot from god to see if were faithfull and i see that religon wins other evoliton becuase this is a statestic 97% of the world belive in a god while 3% JUST plainlly dont belive in any god whats so ever, either there creantists or aithests they dont belive in a god

To be fair;

Facts arn't facts because the majority belive them. Facts are truth. Therefore, saying that creationism wins because only 3% of people don't belive in god isn't correct. If that were how it worked, the world would be flat.

Also, I don't think that the figure is actually 3%, but needless to say, not all of the 97% of people who arnt aithiest are christian. Even those who ARE christian, only a cirtain percentage of those actually belive in creationism 100%
Considering there are so many devided views between the 97%, it is ignorant to say that they hold all the facts, as the 'facts' are different depending on the person and their religion.

Also, the first sentance kind of ruins your own point.
'I find evolution silly because who can be sure that god has a plan for us?' is basicly what you said. Evolution dosn't count on a plan from god (at least, not in all cases), however most creationisism views count that a god has a plan for everything created. Thus, if we can't be sure god has a plan, we cant be sure creationists are right.

If god does have a plan, why did he give us free will, which allows us to BREAK that plan? If god want's us to keep his plan going, and make sure we're faithfull, why dosn't he just make us all 100% faithfull?




side note~ I think it was bush that said 'god told me to go to war'
Tony went to war 'cos bush told him to.
Simple as.

Nice Jimmy Carr quote, btw, I remember him saying that :D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 03:40:40 pm
He let slip the little gem about god on a TV interview a week ago, it was all over the papers here
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 13, 2006, 03:41:23 pm
Realy? I didn't see it... (yes, im an englander too) I was SURE it was bush...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 03:43:19 pm
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1725906,00.html

sums up my reaction to what he said
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 13, 2006, 03:46:52 pm
HA, very nice. YAY for the pythons!


This is what I was talking about:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 03:49:30 pm
you know Maybe there is something in Iran calling America the great Satan, well its president anyway
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 13, 2006, 03:57:12 pm
Actually, if I remember my RE lesson right, theres a passage from the islamic(?) holy book which states that a son of Arabia will awaken the wrath of the feirce Eagle, and the wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah. Whilst people cried in dispare, others rejoice, as the eagle clenses the lands of Allah.

I'l have a look for the real quote in a minuet...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 03:58:24 pm
very symbolic, any muslims here who could back this up?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 13, 2006, 04:01:43 pm
OK, I found this:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_quran_911.htm

Looks like I was wrong, but I knew I had heard it somewhere...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 04:06:14 pm
damn that would have been very weird if it was a real verse, anyway back to the bad-mouthing of religion!!!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 04:07:30 pm
damn that would have been very weird if it was a real verse, anyway back to the bad-mouthing of religion!!!
Serriously, you should stop now before you kill us all LOL
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 13, 2006, 04:08:17 pm
Quote
Qur'an Verse 9:11 - 'The Wrath of the Eagle'


Wow lol
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 04:18:03 pm
I have decided to start a new religion called evolutionism, we'll steal the best bits from all the other religions, while keeping our common sense. Our first step shall be to do what every religion does and declare war on the unbeliever!!
To the museums!!!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 04:20:34 pm
I have decided to start a new religion called evolutionism, we'll steal the best bits from all the other religions, while keeping our common sense. Our first step shall be to do what every religion does and declare war on the unbeliever!!
To the museums!!!
You forgot about the common sense part already?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 13, 2006, 04:21:16 pm
Too late, a little Presbyterian minister by the name of Charles Darwin beat ya to it.

Okay so he didn't exactly found it as it is today, but he laid the ground work for the Evolutionist faith. And don't you DARE tell me it doesn't take faith to believe we all came from natural causes. Even you have to admit it takes at least a little.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 13, 2006, 04:24:05 pm
Meh. I allready have my own religion. It allready has the best bits of all the religions.

It views God as more of a gardener than a creator.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 04:26:45 pm
Too late, a little Presbyterian minister by the name of Charles Darwin beat ya to it.

Okay so he didn't exactly found it as it is today, but he laid the ground work for the Evolutionist faith. And don't you DARE tell me it doesn't take faith to believe we all came from natural causes. Even you have to admit it takes at least a little.

no faith just good old fashioned common sense and an open mind.

1st commandment of evolutionism; Thou shalt spend thine sunday having a lie-in then watching sports, drinking beer or doing whatever else you want - hey its your day of rest after all
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 04:29:06 pm
im cristian and i find evoltion silly becuase like i said who can u be 100% sure that what were doing is a plot from god to see if were faithfull and i see that religon wins other evoliton becuase this is a statestic 97% of the world belive in a god while 3% JUST plainlly dont belive in any god whats so ever, either there creantists or aithests they dont belive in a god

To be fair;

Facts arn't facts because the majority belive them. Facts are truth. Therefore, saying that creationism wins because only 3% of people don't belive in god isn't correct. If that were how it worked, the world would be flat.

Also, I don't think that the figure is actually 3%, but needless to say, not all of the 97% of people who arnt aithiest are christian. Even those who ARE christian, only a cirtain percentage of those actually belive in creationism 100%
Considering there are so many devided views between the 97%, it is ignorant to say that they hold all the facts, as the 'facts' are different depending on the person and their religion.

Also, the first sentance kind of ruins your own point.
'I find evolution silly because who can be sure that god has a plan for us?' is basicly what you said. Evolution dosn't count on a plan from god (at least, not in all cases), however most creationisism views count that a god has a plan for everything created. Thus, if we can't be sure god has a plan, we cant be sure creationists are right.

If god does have a plan, why did he give us free will, which allows us to BREAK that plan? If god want's us to keep his plan going, and make sure we're faithfull, why dosn't he just make us all 100% faithfull?




side note~ I think it was bush that said 'god told me to go to war'
Tony went to war 'cos bush told him to.
Simple as.

Nice Jimmy Carr quote, btw, I remember him saying that :D

were u actelly reading what i posted after i didnt go around the world asking ppl i never said i belived that but im throuwing it out there if anyone needs it to proove there point or anything
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 04:32:47 pm
you where still using the wrong facts and twisting them to suite your means

2nd commandment of evolutionism; Thou shalt not deny the existence of thine blessed evolution
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 13, 2006, 04:35:08 pm
So, where does evolutionism start?
When jesus christ had his moment of doubt and pain?
When the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank?
When the rolling stones started?
Don't forget, making you'r own religion can be bad, I mean, kings and queens fought for ten decades for the gods they made.

((yes, I did just read your sig))

Quote
were u actelly reading what i posted after i didnt go around the world asking ppl i never said i belived that but im throuwing it out there if anyone needs it to proove there point or anything

How can it prove anything? I just proved that it's invalid material, so it CAN'T be used to prove anything :D If I wasn't reading it, how could I have made those comments?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 13, 2006, 04:36:19 pm
My my,this is still going  :o.So um........who is winning the debate?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 04:38:45 pm
My my,this is still going  :o.So um........who is winning the debate?
No one..of course...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 13, 2006, 04:39:00 pm
My my,this is still going  :o.So um........who is winning the debate?


ME!

i think...


ANYWAY!

back on - off-topic!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 04:39:32 pm
the evolutionists are, I've started a religion and may even make a post on it, P.S I'm going for the worlds 2nd most laid back religion, after buhdism, if someone hits you your allowed to drop him, but only if you want to.

3rd commandment of evolutionism; Thou shalt only turn the other cheek if thou believes it will work
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 04:41:31 pm
the evolutionists are, I've started a religion and may even make a post on it, P.S I'm going for the worlds 2nd most laid back religion, after bhudism, if someone hits you your allowed to drop him, but only if you want to.

3rd commandment of evolutionism; Thou shalt only turn the other cheek if thou believes it will work
4th commandment of evolutionism; Thou shalt dislike religion...uh wait...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 13, 2006, 04:42:29 pm
WAIT, I think we should have a just war thing. Just so we don't get any nuclear wars going on.

anyways, gotta go, tis beddy-byes :D

-try- and have fun without me :D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 13, 2006, 04:44:32 pm
the evolutionists are, I've started a religion and may even make a post on it, P.S I'm going for the worlds 2nd most laid back religion, after Buddhism, if someone hits you your allowed to drop him, but only if you want to.

3rd commandment of evolutionism; Thou shalt only turn the other cheek if thou believes it will work
4th commandment of evolutionism; Thou shalt dislike religion...uh wait...

WTF? :D,ok maybe I need to read back a few pages because I have no idea of what is going on  ;D  .
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 04:44:51 pm
the evolutionists are, I've started a religion and may even make a post on it, P.S I'm going for the worlds 2nd most laid back religion, after Buddhism, if someone hits you your allowed to drop him, but only if you want to.

3rd commandment of evolutionism; Thou shalt only turn the other cheek if thou believes it will work
4th commandment of evolutionism; Thou shalt dislike religion...uh wait...

thats just crazy enough to work, then We'll  have the characteristics of a TRUE religion

4th commandment of evolutionism; In order to fit in with other religions, thou shalt treat all religions, other than the one true faith of evolutionism, with a contempt that borders on discrimination -unless you don't want to, I'm not going to lay a guilt trip on you about it

WAIT, I think we should have a just war thing. Just so we don't get any nuclear wars going on.

anyways, gotta go, tis beddy-byes :D

-try- and have fun without me :D

5th commandment of evolutionism; thou shalt not kill, unless you have to - we really mean this one!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 04:48:02 pm
So, where does evolutionism start?
When Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain?
When the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank?
When the rolling stones started?
Don't forget, making you're own religion can be bad, I mean, kings and queens fought for ten decades for the gods they made.

((yes, I did just read your Sig))

Quote
were u acutely reading what i posted after i didn't go around the world asking Pol i never said i believed that but I'm throwing it out there if anyone needs it to prove there point or anything

How can it prove anything? I just proved that it's invalid material, so it CAN'T be used to prove anything :D If I wasn't reading it, how could I have made those comments?

obversely at the time (see theres something called before and after) i thought it might be good material and i do think its good material because those facts that i said was about 2 topic Who believes in God and Who doesn't see so u never know if you'l need it because this is a topic about religion also personally why are u flaming me I'm not the person that went around with a helicopter and yelled who believes in god put Ur hand up or how ever they did it so flame that guy
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 04:51:28 pm
mate , spell-check, also hes not flaming you he's countering your arguement, with a proper point, hey thats a good idea
6th commandment of evolutionism; Thou shalt keep all disagreements civil
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 04:53:57 pm
So, where does evolutionism start?
When jesus christ had his moment of doubt and pain?
When the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank?
When the rolling stones started?
Don't forget, making you'r own religion can be bad, I mean, kings and queens fought for ten decades for the gods they made.

((yes, I did just read your sig))

Quote
were u actelly reading what i posted after i didnt go around the world asking ppl i never said i belived that but im throuwing it out there if anyone needs it to proove there point or anything

How can it prove anything? I just proved that it's invalid material, so it CAN'T be used to prove anything :D If I wasn't reading it, how could I have made those comments?

obvieslly at the time (see theres something called before and after) i thought it might be good material and i do think its good material becuase those facts that i said was about 2 topic Who belives in God and Who doesnt see so u never kno uif ull need it becuase this is a topic about religon also personnaly why are u flaming me im not the person that went around with a helicopeter and yelled who belives in god put ur hand up or how ever they did it so flame that guy
"helicopeter"
I think thats a pot-head word  :o
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 04:54:36 pm
mate , spell-check, also hes not flaming you he's countering your arguement, with a proper point, hey thats a good idea
6th commandment of evolutionism; Thou shalt keep all disagreements civil

srry bad spelling and i kno he was acting like his flaming me i sense that
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 04:55:33 pm
So, where does evolutionism start?
When jesus christ had his moment of doubt and pain?
When the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank?
When the rolling stones started?
Don't forget, making you'r own religion can be bad, I mean, kings and queens fought for ten decades for the gods they made.

((yes, I did just read your sig))

Quote
were u actelly reading what i posted after i didnt go around the world asking ppl i never said i belived that but im throuwing it out there if anyone needs it to proove there point or anything

How can it prove anything? I just proved that it's invalid material, so it CAN'T be used to prove anything :D If I wasn't reading it, how could I have made those comments?

obvieslly at the time (see theres something called before and after) i thought it might be good material and i do think its good material becuase those facts that i said was about 2 topic Who belives in God and Who doesnt see so u never kno uif ull need it becuase this is a topic about religon also personnaly why are u flaming me im not the person that went around with a helicopeter and yelled who belives in god put ur hand up or how ever they did it so flame that guy
"helicopeter"
I think thats a pot-head word  :o

lol oh weired didnt notice that..... ur so funny
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 04:56:03 pm
Oh, now "EDIT" LOL
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 05:01:45 pm
Oh, now "EDIT" LOL

there we go ur so funny hehe .... hehe ::)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 05:03:33 pm
http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=2893.0

okay heres my religion post please feel free to join up

7th commandment of evolutionism; thou shalt only drink alcohol if your going to enjoy it
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 05:13:27 pm
I think.... this is a new spam thread!!!YAY!!!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 05:14:24 pm
hey go for it but the moderators may disagree, the more posts are on it the more people will have a look
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 05:18:49 pm
p.s. I know the mods...I'm so 'special'
LOL
No ones saying anything, so...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 05:19:40 pm
I need more votes people!!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 05:22:40 pm
So religions are created from popular vote now, eh?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 05:24:09 pm
Isn't that how its always been?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SpecialBrownies on March 13, 2006, 05:24:36 pm
I vote for evolutionology!!!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 05:26:38 pm
now spread the words my children of the common ancestor!!!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 13, 2006, 05:27:37 pm
I vote for evolutionology!!!

Ok so if this is a new cult religion,then who is our God  ;) :D.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 05:28:39 pm
I vote for evolutionology!!!

Ok so if this is a new cult religion,then who is our God  ;) :D.
like chicken said Lord Common Ancestor
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 05:29:21 pm
I vote for evolutionology!!!

Ok so if this is a new cult religion,then who is our God  ;) :D.

We worship the fact that evolution exist, please go to http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=2893.0 and cast your vote now, although you can worship the common ancestor if you want, but we're not gonna force you  8)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 13, 2006, 05:31:41 pm
I vote for evolutionology!!!

Ok so if this is a new cult religion,then who is our God  ;) :D.

We worship the fact that evolution exist, please go to http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=2893.0 and cast your vote now

Um no you dont understand.......WE need A god TO worship OK?Lol I say I should be the God  :D :P
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 05:32:27 pm
just updated it, its now the common ancestor
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 05:34:03 pm
just updated it, its now the common ancestor

what i said that already u stealer revolt and form some evoulisjndfgjndfdfjdnfdfgtgy cult ahhh!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 05:36:04 pm
just updated it, its now the common ancestor

what i said that already u stealer revolt and form some evoulisjndfgjndfdfjdnfdfgtgy cult ahhh!

yup I'm stealing ideas from the bretheren, I have high hope for this religion
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 05:37:45 pm
just updated it, its now the common ancestor

what i said that already u stealer revolt and form some evoulisjndfgjndfdfjdnfdfgtgy cult ahhh!

yup I'm stealing ideas from the bretheren, I have high hope for this religion

oh im in with my silly badgers u can steal whatever u want from me dont take my badgers and mushrooms!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 05:39:19 pm
I think that I may soon be shot by muggerman for dragging this discussion so far off topic that there's no going back
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 05:43:47 pm
no god, no creationism, no problem. nuff said
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Oviraptor on March 13, 2006, 05:44:43 pm
badger badger badger baDGER BADGER badger badger badger badger ... mushroom mushroom!!! and liquor snake, snake ooooo its a snake!!!!

Enought with the badger song, we get it. All your doing now is spamming.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 05:45:45 pm
Hi guys please join my religion on http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=2893.0
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Oviraptor on March 13, 2006, 05:47:34 pm
Hi guys please join my religion on http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=2893.0

And, no offense to you, but maybe you should just put that in your sig, instead of endlessly promoting it in here (since it is technically off topic). Thanks.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 05:47:49 pm
badger badger badger baDGER BADGER badger badger badger badger ... mushroom mushroom!!! and liquor snake, snake ooooo its a snake!!!!

Enought with the badger song, we get it. All your doing now is spamming.

ok srry moderator so i wont annoy ppl anyone and so they can listen to it with ther own free will here is the real song
http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/badgers/
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 05:50:10 pm
alright then, done and sorry again.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Spriggand on March 13, 2006, 06:15:47 pm
I think this thread has outlived it's usefulness. It no longer encourages thoughtful debate, but rather the creation of strange new religions, like mine (it involves waffles, lots of waffles).
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 06:17:08 pm
well mine gives free invisible can-openers, and specialty lolly-pops
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 06:17:29 pm
I think this thread has outlived it's usefulness. It no longer encourages thoughtful debate, but rather the creation of strange new religions, like mine (it involves waffles, lots of waffles).
like badger waffles?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 06:46:21 pm
okay now this forums, pointless, I sure hope Muggerman doesn't try and feed me through a shredder.......
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 13, 2006, 06:52:51 pm
no longer encourages? There was hardly any real debate, no one ever even tried to listen.  It was just a bunch of people throwing up statements that vaguely related to what other people said.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 06:54:39 pm
if you want more off the same click on my signature, but we now have a debate about religion Vs evolution and my signature for any silly stuff you want to say
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 07:05:06 pm
lets get back to good ol' fighting about unprovable stuff :P
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: KICkMEdOOd1 on March 13, 2006, 07:09:28 pm
Please, don't insult what people believe in.

I'm Mormon, and I think that this game is just harmless fun.  Don't generalize.

Well not everyone is the same.Also to tell the truth I'v never herd of these protests against evolution  ???.

Lol-- Us conservatives don't do protests... thats Liberal ground =D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:32:03 pm
I'm Just here to talk to ANAME



GUNDAMS RULE GUNDAMS RULE
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 07:33:24 pm
>_>
<_<
dont do that, really
thats agaisnt the rules
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:35:29 pm
GUNDAMS RULE ALL.HANDS DOWN.YOU ALL know it.*Gets in Gundam Hell Fire and rules world*
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:36:58 pm
Sorry :'( :'(
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 13, 2006, 07:37:06 pm
When I think mechs... I think function over form, not a lot of pretty artwork.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 07:37:37 pm
atop it or yull get banned :(
if ya wanna talk gundams go to the TV forums
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 13, 2006, 07:38:51 pm
okay, lets see if I can turn this around.

I wonder if we can have bipedal mechanized vehicles for battle in spore?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:39:09 pm
 ???. Gwhir you know nothing about GUNDAMS.Oh
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:40:58 pm
I want Alliance options so you can team up with other Alien races
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 07:41:18 pm
srsly, jus make a new topic in thge TV forums
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 07:42:05 pm
I don't think we ever actually talked about the actual topic LOL
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:43:13 pm
MUST HAVE SPORE :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:45:07 pm
Alliance options would be good so you can team up with other player's Aliens
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 13, 2006, 07:45:25 pm
In whatever official capacity I can muster, I bestow upon myself the powers of the clue stick!

*hits Gameses with the clue stick*
get a clue and calm down!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 07:45:46 pm
dude, jus go to the tv forums and ill make a topic 4 U
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:46:20 pm
Am I Right ???. or you guys think it stinks
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 07:47:02 pm
i made you a topic in the tv were you wont get banned, les talk about it there
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:47:35 pm
Not talkin bout Gundams anymore
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:48:17 pm
But ok
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:49:40 pm
Where to
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gameses the 1st on March 13, 2006, 07:51:36 pm
i made you a topic in the tv were you wont get banned, les talk about it there


OK WERE TOO
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 13, 2006, 07:51:41 pm
you might want to try limiting your posts and editing instead of double or triple posting
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Aybraus on March 13, 2006, 07:51:49 pm
4ple post frodomg
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 07:52:10 pm
in the TV FORUMS!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 08:05:26 pm
in many many threads there was will wright confirming u can make mechs and in the vid he said u can ally with aliens but its takse along time to allly with all these differnt steps u have to take before u ally
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Gwahir on March 13, 2006, 08:07:31 pm
shhh, I'm trying to make the short discussion at least a little valid here.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 08:36:34 pm
and I'm back what happened to the evolution debate?  :-[
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 08:41:14 pm
oh was descarted when ppl talked about mech wearing alien allying Will vdeo ppl
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Samog on March 13, 2006, 08:41:34 pm
Aname brought a friend who, evidently, enjoys quadruple posting about gundams in the evolution debate thread.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 08:45:00 pm
I see....
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 08:47:48 pm
srry he so crazy... :-[
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 13, 2006, 09:04:44 pm
srry he so crazy... :-[
BAN!




 ;D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2006, 09:08:52 pm
srry he so crazy... :-[
BAN!




 ;D

You're mean, there shall be no such meaness in the church of evolutionology!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SpecialBrownies on March 13, 2006, 09:42:52 pm
Join now and get a free nano-ounce of special lemonade! (The equivalent of Holy Water in the Church of Evolutionoloy)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 13, 2006, 09:53:32 pm
i demand a spcail brownie instead :-X im lemonade intolerant
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 13, 2006, 09:56:34 pm
If there was any mercy left in the world, someone would kill this thread.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GrrrArrgh on March 13, 2006, 10:00:04 pm
Mercy? There was never any mercy.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Samog on March 13, 2006, 10:03:28 pm
So, who else noticed that SumGI derailed both of the evolution threads?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 13, 2006, 10:22:46 pm
Whoa...this made me laugh. Goto work for a few hours and come back tot his! bwahahahahahahahaha. So to get REALLY back on topic. I dont think Christians will CARE about spore. You will have 3 types. Type 1 doesnt know or care about spore (largest portion) type 2 has heard of spore plays it and loves every second of (pretty large portion as well) type 3 will be the wierdos that think its bad and teaches about evolution which techniqually isnt true because it actually teaches inteligent design because an inteligent being (aka you) create your planet and the universe.

OH OH OH....maybe God is just some galactic being playing spore and we are his creations. Once we reach UFO stage we will be able to go out and visit all the other galactic being planets and thier creations and play like close encounters and get shot at and and and....YAY FOR BEING IN A REAL LIFE SPORE GAME!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Nyutan on March 14, 2006, 12:08:39 am
<rant> Well well Well.. I tend to belive that Evolution and Christianity Fit perfectly with each other.. God created evolution. lol. Simple. Right? Nope.. They still yell at people for that too. Well.. What's technology? It's a type of Evolution. Free will was given to people by god correct? He gave us the ability to evolve through our free will. we invent, adapt, and thrive. </rant> w0rd. This has been a Nyutan Production.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Golgrig on March 14, 2006, 03:23:21 am
Quote
"I prefer rationalism to atheism. The question of God and other objects-of-faith are outside reason and play no part in rationalism, thus you don't have to waste your time in either attacking or defending."
-Isaac Asimov


Quote
"The inhabitants of the earth are of two sorts:
Those with brains, but no religion,
And those with religion, but no brains."
-Abu'l-`Ala' al-Ma`arri

Quote
"I am not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief is positively harmful. Reviewing the false claims of religion, I do not wish, as some sentimental materialists affect to wish, that they were true. I do not envy believers their faith. I am relieved to think that the whole story is a sinister fairy tale; life would be miserable if what the faithful affirmed was actually the case."
-Christopher Hitchens

Quote
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"In no instance have ... the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."
- James Madison

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
- John Adams

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
- Benjamin Franklin


Robert Sherman: "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?"
Bush: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
-41st President, George H. W. Bush, father our most completly screwed current president

my favoite one:
"Shake off all fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson

blissful ignorance of reason is a sad joke to play on yourself.  smart men seek knowledge foolish men are happy to have it given to them.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: jarnomiedema on March 14, 2006, 04:51:00 am
<rant> Well well Well.. I tend to belive that Evolution and Christianity Fit perfectly with each other.. God created evolution. lol. Simple. Right? Nope.. They still yell at people for that too. Well.. What's technology? It's a type of Evolution. Free will was given to people by god correct? He gave us the ability to evolve through our free will. we invent, adapt, and thrive. </rant> w0rd. This has been a Nyutan Production.

*Sigh* Here's the problem I have with this rant: "God" did not create evolution, because, as far as I and many other are concerned, he/she/it does not exist. Evolution is, like gravity, a force of nature, something we cannot observe in our lifetimes, simply because it takes much longer than the time we spend on this planet for any changes to actually take place.. Free will, like all of human behavior, is a result of the evolution of our brains. Humanity was not created by god, it simply evolved into a being that learned how to handle tools and due to it's diet, evolved brains that were capable of achieving more elaborate thoughts..

Argh.. Creationists bring out the worst in me..  >:(
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Petike on March 14, 2006, 05:11:07 am
I belive in God but i think He didn't create evolution. There is no reason to spend millions of years with watching a single celled bacteria while He can do everything in seven days, or even in a moment.   
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 14, 2006, 05:57:48 am
So is someone ever going to provide me with links to those studies that prove that evolution exists? Its been a day now I think Ive givin enough time?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 07:05:56 am
I'm not going to provide you with links, because there are no links to the fossil record
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: BioCat on March 14, 2006, 08:35:04 am
Hi all

I found this:

http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm

A short version about the evolutionary fact.

Also general info in the subject (including Darwin's theory):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Read and Enjoy...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: jarnomiedema on March 14, 2006, 09:46:43 am
So is someone ever going to provide me with links to those studies that prove that evolution exists? Its been a day now I think Ive givin enough time?

There are plenty of links out there, but for some reason, I don't think it's worth roaming the internet to find information proving beyond doubt that evolution exist and then not have it read..

But then again, I might as well do this to prevent anyone from saying I'm not helpful.. (See, a helpful atheïst! *Shock* *Horror*):
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_evolution
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Huxley_-_Mans_Place_in_Nature.jpg
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Species
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_evolutionary_synthesis
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_biology


Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 14, 2006, 09:49:34 am
Hi all

I found this:

http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm

A short version about the evolutionary fact.

Also general info in the subject (including Darwin's theory):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Read and Enjoy...
I'll just jump in quickly again to say that the first link is very good. Also see this related link: http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay2.htm

Having said that lets not get into a link posting match. There are plenty of sites out there with plenty of opinions, lets let people find them ourselves, eh?

Welcome to the forums Biocat.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 09:50:16 am
yeah nice post bicat
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 14, 2006, 09:53:54 am
BTW, I wasn't flaming anyone. People tend to have 1 of 4 reactions of anything I say, 1) I'm funny, 2) i'm annoying 3) i'm flirting 4) i'm flaming.


I don't tend to get many more reactions...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: TheShark on March 14, 2006, 09:57:07 am
Evolution makes baby Jesus cry...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 14, 2006, 10:15:01 am
So is someone ever going to provide me with links to those studies that prove that evolution exists? Its been a day now I think Ive givin enough time?

We learn about evolution at school.

Evolution makes baby Jesus cry...

Everything makes baby Jesus cry  :-\
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 10:30:27 am
what about nappy rash?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: gec05 on March 14, 2006, 10:42:47 am
Here's a simple thought... -.-

Imagine you walking down the street, you see a beautifully constructed house. Such craftsmanship and design was put into it. What if you were told that this house just appeared out of nowhere, just built itself on its own. You'd scoff at any such remark. Yet evolutionists believe in the big bang theory. Isn't that just the same as believing a house appears out of nowhere. Everything has a creator, everything was built by someone or something. The computer you sit in front of had to be made by someone. That's my logic.  ;)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 14, 2006, 10:45:14 am
Yeah, thats just the watch theory using a house instead :P

Also, there is a theory - the equal chance theory, or something, where basicly, imagine a mug, and every state it could possibly be in.
Theres millions of ways it could be if broken, but only one where its hole.
Imagine that each of those states has an equal chance of happening.
Theoreticly, if you hit it enough times, it would go back together, only, theres so many millions more states where its broken than there is where it is hole, that it would probably take longer than time you have to do it.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 14, 2006, 10:46:22 am
the devil hulk believes in evolution. normal hulk just believes in smashing. but seriously, creationism is not only un evidential, its not practical. in evolution, all you need is a rock for there to be evolution. matter becomes cells, cells become plants, plants become water filter feeders, those become fish, fish become amphibians of sorts, amphibians became mammals, mammals become apes,(by apes i mean our class of ape) apes become different forms of sentient life,(yes, we were NOT the only sentient being on the planet, in a fact there were many different humanoid creatures, look it up) and humans are the last surviving race. sure, it would be easy to say, "god made it" when we evolved, but now its time to choose between what is right, and what is stupid.( and a computer is a nonliving thing, oh, and you contridict yourself, if everything has a creater, and god is 100 trillion times more complex than us, then who created him?)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 10:52:31 am
WTF
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: gec05 on March 14, 2006, 10:56:00 am
I wouldn't question god but it's up to him to decide who is the fool. Believing that everything happens by chance is just as unpractical. Matter doesn't have a mind of it's own, it needs to be pushed. Look around you, everything is evidence to a work of art, what does evolution know about beauty? Even evolutionists question how beauty is formed. ;) I'm not going any farther with this myself, it's a touchy subject for a lot of people.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 14, 2006, 11:10:11 am
oh yeah, beauty. beautiful is different to every form of life so QFT. srsly, beauty has nothing to do with evo, just look at other animals. im sure some of them look butt ugly. to us, beauty is different therefor irrelevant. beauty to animals can be bigger horns, brighter colors, or the best fighter. plain and simple.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 14, 2006, 11:10:52 am
Here's a simple thought... -.-

Imagine you walking down the street, you see a beautifully constructed house. Such craftsmanship and design was put into it. What if you were told that this house just appeared out of nowhere, just built itself on its own. You'd scoff at any such remark. Yet evolutionists believe in the big bang theory. Isn't that just the same as believing a house appears out of nowhere. Everything has a creator, everything was built by someone or something. The computer you sit in front of had to be made by someone. That's my logic.  ;)
Hmm, very good. But does it specify everything has to be created in 6 days. Some buildings took decades to 'create' I think all life on earth may take a little longer (and before you use the old 'God could do it in six days' argument tell me why God couldnt have done it instantaneously... not to mention the fact that as an omnipotent being time would have no meaning so six days certainly wouldnt ::))

Stop calling us 'Evolutionists' as Ive said before, and shut up about the big bang please. It has sod all to do with evolution. You can argue about the big bang later... but if God created a Universe wouldnt it make a big bang? (I dont actually believe in God I'm just presenting this in a way you are less likely to scoff at)

I agree, matter doesnt have a mind of its own. This isnt to say it cant do things. Who's doing the 'pushing' when you experience gravity... or electromagnetism?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: gec05 on March 14, 2006, 11:20:25 am
*** ce chap. 4 p. 52 Could Life Originate by Chance? ***

  “The hypothesis that life has developed from inorganic matter is, at present, still an article of faith.”—Mathematician J. W. N. Sullivan

  “The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a printing shop.”—Biologist Edwin Conklin

  “One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this task to concede that the spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible.”—Biochemist George Wald

  “An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle.”—Biologist Francis Crick

  “If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated [spontaneously] on the Earth, this simple calculation [the mathematical odds against it] wipes the idea entirely out of court.”—Astronomers Fred Hoyle and N. C. Wickramasinghe

Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 11:24:40 am
hurah we have another creationist with whom we can debate with!

experiments have been carried out showing that life can arise from a collection of specific chemicals and certain atmoispheric condition, both of which geologists have shown that existed when life is believed to have started. And we're not evolutionists, we're members of the chucrch of evoloutionolgy
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 14, 2006, 11:27:20 am
http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm < read please.
Lets leave the issue of the origin of life for now. Evolution can be proved exclusively of Darwin's work and the assumption that life arose by chance.

“If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated [spontaneously] on the Earth, this simple calculation [the mathematical odds against it] wipes the idea entirely out of court.”—Astronomers Fred Hoyle and N. C. Wickramasinghe

and the other quotes

Yes, and the odds of getting a royal flush in poker are pretty low as well. Guess what, people across the globe get royal flushes Every Day.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: jarnomiedema on March 14, 2006, 11:28:19 am
Here's another simple thought: Imagine walking in a nature reserve and seeing a huge mountain. Such beautiful rock formations must've taken millions if not billions of years of formation and erosion to come into existence. Then what if someone told you that something snapped it's fingers and the mountain was there.. You'd scoff at the thought! Yet Religious People believe this is true.. Everything evolved over billions of years and wasn't created in a few days..

By the way, I find it interesting to see so many new members have joined GamingSteve to participate in this debate exclusively..  :o
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 11:30:53 am
personally I'm wondering how on earth they found this I mean computers are the tool of the devil aren't they, come to think of it Christians have been calling anything that keeps the general populace well-informed for centuries
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 14, 2006, 11:32:09 am
By the way, I find it interesting to see so many new members have joined GamingSteve to participate in this debate exclusively.. :o

They should be banned immediately ;D

Here's another simple thought: Imagine walking in a nature reserve and seeing a huge mountain. Such beautiful rock formations must've taken millions if not billions of years of formation and erosion to come into existence. Then what if someone told you that something snapped it's fingers and the mountain was there.. You'd scoff at the thought! Yet Religious People believe this is true.. Everything evolved over billions of years and wasn't created in a few days..

Exactly, that is what I was thinking.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 14, 2006, 11:37:47 am
Hi guys, another atheist here. I love the "mountain wasn't formed in a snap" quote to rival that of the watchmaker one.

Have any of you guys watched BBC's "Walking with..." series, the most recent one, "Walking with Monsters" shows life before dinosaurs.

I can point out another sentient species, the nearndenthals. (SP?)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 14, 2006, 11:39:51 am
Another one joining because of this thread ;)

It's a shame the Neanderthals don't excist anymore.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 14, 2006, 11:41:49 am
Yeah, I want to see cross-breeds!, although they are uglier, I'm such a racist lol, j/k.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 11:41:57 am
Hi guys, another atheist here. I love the "mountain wasn't formed in a snap" quote to rival that of the watchmaker one.

Have any of you guys watched BBC's "Walking with..." series, the most recent one, "Walking with Monsters" shows life before dinosaurs.

I can point out another sentient species, the nearndenthals. (SP?)

the watch maker arguement is fundamentally flawed anyway, it is something that you know is manufactured, If someone 200 years ago found a palm-pilot, especially one with no power, they would probably think it was some type of unusual rock formation, especially if there was no writing on the surface of the object.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 14, 2006, 11:47:16 am
Exactly, especially with watches like us with our weakest organs exposed, you know what I'm talking about, boys, and body odor, euch.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 11:51:37 am
what!?
I was on about the old argument to evolution
    "In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there. (...) There must have existed, at some time, and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers, who formed [the watch] for the purpose which we find it actually to answer; who comprehended its construction, and designed its use. (...) Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation. "

    — William Paley, Natural Theology (1802)


A classic, but, ultimately flawed arguement against evolution
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 14, 2006, 11:53:28 am
Quote
the watch maker arguement is fundamentally flawed anyway, it is something that you know is manufactured, If someone 200 years ago found a palm-pilot, especially one with no power, they would probably think it was some type of unusual rock formation, especially if there was no writing on the surface of the object.

The watchmaker thing says that the watch is opened. surley if you saw something with so many intricate parts you would think someone must have made it? especialy if its working...

Quote
Exactly, especially with watches like us with our weakest organs exposed, you know what I'm talking about, boys, and body odor, euch.

no sence...not funny :D
I did see the walking with beasts/dinosaurs/monsters though. t'was good, dispite the fact that most of it was based on speculation, not fact.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 11:56:06 am
if you cracked open the palm-pilot you would see lots of complicated parts, however, geologists at the time would probably say that it is merely a strangely shaped geode, especially how any chemical tests carried out on the inner components would reveal that they are almost entirely made out of silicon
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 14, 2006, 12:01:48 pm
Quote
the watch maker arguement is fundamentally flawed anyway, it is something that you know is manufactured, If someone 200 years ago found a palm-pilot, especially one with no power, they would probably think it was some type of unusual rock formation, especially if there was no writing on the surface of the object.

The watchmaker thing says that the watch is opened. surley if you saw something with so many intricate parts you would think someone must have made it? especialy if its working...
But we are not like watches, we can reproduce, they can't, we reproduce with our offsprings recieving some, but not all of our traits, and same happens to their offsprings. If watches could reproduce when they mate, and their babies are different from what the parents are, I'd say it came upon by evolution, and that's what lifeforms are, they came from parents, which are slightly different from them.
Quote
Quote
Exactly, especially with watches like us with our weakest organs exposed, you know what I'm talking about, boys, and body odor, euch.

no sence...not funny :D
I did see the walking with beasts/dinosaurs/monsters though. t'was good, dispite the fact that most of it was based on speculation, not fact.
If you are a boy, you know know it is most painful to be kicked in the testicles, if there was intelligence, they would be kept inside the body, and not out, dolphins and whales have theirs inside, but they can regulate its' temperatures so as the sperm survives.

Well, there are fossils of trilobites, and even the first mammal-like reptiles, the dimetrodon and edaphosaurus.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 12:05:10 pm
the watchmaker arguement is that something as complicated as life had to made, it couldn't just happen randomly, it has nothing to do with reproduction, as for your second point I really have no idea what your getting at
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 14, 2006, 12:05:31 pm
Quote
But we are not like watches, we can reproduce, they can't, we reproduce with our offsprings recieving some, but not all of our traits, and same happens to their offsprings. If watches could reproduce when they mate, and their babies are different from what the parents are, I'd say it came upon by evolution, and that's what lifeforms are, they came from parents, which are slightly different from them.

Erm, I think you mis-understand the idea behind the watch thing...


its against evolution. it basicly says that how can something so complicated (like us) come about by chance? it must have been made. seeee?

and I did understand what your saying. it just wasn't put well.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 14, 2006, 12:09:29 pm
Quote
But we are not like watches, we can reproduce, they can't, we reproduce with our offsprings recieving some, but not all of our traits, and same happens to their offsprings. If watches could reproduce when they mate, and their babies are different from what the parents are, I'd say it came upon by evolution, and that's what lifeforms are, they came from parents, which are slightly different from them.

Erm, I think you mis-understand the idea behind the watch thing...


its against evolution. it basicly says that how can something so complicated (like us) come about by chance? it must have been made. seeee?

and I did understand what your saying. it just wasn't put well.
Computers nowadys are complicated, but they started out very simply, and upgraded/improved to what we have now.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 12:10:48 pm
when that argument was put forward there weren't any computers, and besides someone makes the computer
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 14, 2006, 12:14:38 pm
My point is that complicated things are not made overnight, it's improved on continuously.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 12:16:37 pm
thats a good point but the original point was that someone had to actually make the watch, it didn't just arise from nothing, which is more-or-less what Darwins theory said
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 14, 2006, 12:18:46 pm
Darwins theory is the origin of species, not the origin of life.

But okay, before I talk about my point of life's origins, what do you think gives babies life?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 12:19:58 pm
i only consider something to be alive if it is aware of its environment
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 14, 2006, 12:24:53 pm
Well, the beginning of life definitely has to not be living, and that I talk about, is Amino Acids, the building blocks of life.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Exploding8 on March 14, 2006, 12:33:47 pm
Just because people believe in evolution doesn't mean they think there's no god. They just think that god created us through evolution, not he just suddenly thought us and the entire universe up.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 12:35:59 pm
I personally believe in god, but not in religion, I think of god more as a judge for the afterlife than a grand creator
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 14, 2006, 01:03:50 pm
Yes, those are theoevolutionists, as long as people don't disagree proven sciences just because their God doesn't say so, I don't mind.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 14, 2006, 01:21:14 pm
Yeah, in my mind, God made the big bang, and left things be pretty much for there.
However, I also belive that now and then, he just nudges things in the right direction.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GCool on March 14, 2006, 02:18:49 pm
God movie (http://uploads.ungrounded.net/content.php?id=205197&name=205197_onlysuperhuman.swf&title=Only%20Superhuman&date=1142312400&quality=b&li=1&uj=0&w=400&h=300)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aquaman on March 14, 2006, 02:34:20 pm
With the arguement against Evolution and Creationism it doesn't take a rocket scientist to weigh up the evidence and see which is more likely. :)

I know this seems childish (which it is) because it takes a child to see that the overwhelming evidence that supports evolution is much greater than that of creationism.  I don't see any reason why we should believe in God as much as we should believe that an invisible pink unicorn is orbiting mars.

People can just get blinded by faith, which I think is kinda upsetting.

I'm not going to argue my point any further because I'm hardly going to convince any religious believers that their wrong.  But, please, have your say, but bare in mind that your hardly going to convince my that i'm wrong  ;)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 14, 2006, 02:55:05 pm
If there ever was a trainwreck in this forum, this thread is it.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 03:20:49 pm
this forum isn't a train wreck, its a full-blown disaster area
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GrrrArrgh on March 14, 2006, 03:22:21 pm
With a thread title like that, could anyone ever really have expected anything else?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 03:27:29 pm
maybe this thread should be left up as an example of how far a thread can go off-topic
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Aybraus on March 14, 2006, 06:03:30 pm
Here's a breakdown of the thread:

EVOLUTION/RELIGION DEBATESpore
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 08:19:15 pm
no thats a thread on the everything else forum, this is one about die-hard christians reaction to the release of spore
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Samog on March 14, 2006, 08:36:41 pm
Maybe this thread should be stickied and locked as a testament to the power of malicious thread derailing and the almighty dollar postcount.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 08:42:04 pm
I don't know theres a kind of sick thrill in keeping a thread thats been so badly abused and is so far off topic that it should be mercifully drowned, alive or at least a close approximation
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 14, 2006, 08:52:55 pm
I know you tried hard, but no one yelled at you  :'(
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 08:54:41 pm
I know you tried hard, but no one yelled at you  :'(


and now I'm sad...... hold me
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 14, 2006, 08:56:38 pm
I have enough unconditional love for all of you!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 14, 2006, 09:00:40 pm
wow, suddenly I feel the warmth of unconditional love..... oh wait a minute, I've just stood under a heating vent
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 14, 2006, 09:30:44 pm
Keep in mind aquaman that not all of people who beleive in god also are dead against evolution. Only fundementalists, which is basically just people interperting that what the bibal says is exactly true. This can't be true because god said once that humans are the salt of the earth. This means that we are what gives the earth flavor and life, it doesn't mean that we are giant hunks of salt. I guess my point is that don't blame relegion for what people beleive. Especially sence the bibal is read as it is interpereted. I personally beleive creatures evolve however I also beleive that if it wasn't for a god then it would be impossible for the intire universe to have existed in the first place.

Also this is one silly reason why I beleive all life was created first before it evolved
(http://www-astro.physics.ox.ac.uk/~hansen/pics/moment.jpg)

note as an answer to the fact that the universe was created in 6 days. in a village that used a root languade of the bibal to them the word day meant passage of time....Meaning the universe was made in 6 different specific passages of time not 6 days of 24 hours specifically
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 15, 2006, 05:41:53 am
I think I've just found religion.....no wait, its just the toy with my happy meal :D
(you know I only jest because I'm afraid)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SL on March 15, 2006, 06:07:01 am
Keep in mind aquaman that not all of people who beleive in god also are dead against evolution. Only fundementalists, which is basically just people interperting that what the bibal says is exactly true. This can't be true because god said once that humans are the salt of the earth. This means that we are what gives the earth flavor and life, it doesn't mean that we are giant hunks of salt.

Did you know that if you salt the earth (dump plenty of salt on some land), virtually nothing will grow there anymore?

P.S. Personally, I don't put salt on my food. I'd rather have the normal flavors of the food, instead of having everything taste like salt. :P

(Don't forget to read between the lines)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 15, 2006, 06:14:06 am
Keep in mind when god said that all they had at the time was bread and wine. Salt was considered flavorful because it was the only thing that they could use to add to their bread which originally was stale. As for salt destroying the earth I feel you are stating the obvious because lately thats exactly what we've been doing. ;D The fact that you don't use salt has nothing to do with it because you have tons of other choices for spices, and even if you didn't care what spice you used you could choose tons of different foods. People didn't have that luxery in the past.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 15, 2006, 06:49:03 am
I think they had a fair bit more variety in their diet, or everyone would have died from mal-nutrition
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 15, 2006, 11:35:40 am
From evolution to spices and ancient diets  :P. Of course salt would kill the land, its mostly sodium and would suck all the moisture right out of it!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 15, 2006, 12:32:30 pm
don't forget salts with certain minerals in a moist environment will also acidify the soil.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 15, 2006, 01:24:33 pm
Your getting out of context with all that. Back then salt was  valuable commodity because we need it to survive yet its not the most easily attainable thing. Back then salt was considered more of a life giving mineral than a live sapping one.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 15, 2006, 01:29:24 pm
I think Steve should but a comment next to this telling all people considering making a post to look at this topic to see how not to keep a forum on track
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Omnipotence on March 15, 2006, 01:40:14 pm
Salt is the only rock you can eat!!!!

Its magical! :o
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 15, 2006, 01:42:26 pm
you can eat lots of rocks, true most'll kill you or just really, really hurt when you go to the toilet
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 15, 2006, 04:14:14 pm
not as good as those creationwise 'gems'
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 15, 2006, 08:32:48 pm
i was just thinking and thought, couldn't lots of micro evolution turn into macro evo? i could be wrong but, if there can be one, there could probably be the other.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Oviraptor on March 15, 2006, 08:34:49 pm
i was just thinking and thought, couldn't lots of micro evolution turn into macro evo? i could be wrong but, if there can be one, there could probably be the other.

Micro evolution is the same thing as macro evolution, considering that evolution (assuming you believe in it) is really only the difference between generations.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 16, 2006, 06:40:04 am
Macro evolution are just bigger.
/edit
By the way have they found any evidence at all suggesting that animals somehow evolved lungs and came from the ocean? Science proves that the most likely first mammal was a rat. That means provided evolution exists we all would have had to evolve from rats unless we evolved parallel to them somehow and ended "coincidentally" as the same classification. In my opinion evolution doesn't actually seem that likely especially since nobody can full prove it. I do believe that creatures evolve though other wise humans wouldn't be growing taller and things like that.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: mrodgers on March 16, 2006, 07:09:01 am
Macro evolution are just bigger.
/edit
By the way have they found any evidence at all suggesting that animals somehow evolved lungs and came from the ocean? Science proves that the most likely first mammal was a rat. That means provided evolution exists we all would have had to evolve from rats unless we evolved parallel to them somehow and ended "coincidentally" as the same classification. In my opinion evolution doesn't actually seem that likely especially since nobody can full prove it. I do believe that creatures evolve though other wise humans wouldn't be growing taller and things like that.

Yes there are creatures like the lung fish which are considered to be similar to the precursors of true lung breathers.  Also we did not evolve from rats but from small rodent-like creatures similar in appearance to rats but with less fur and more scales.  Rats themselves haven't been around that long (evolutionarily speaking).
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 08:51:06 am
If anyone would like to see the voice of 'modern' creationism go to http://www.answersingenesis.org/
to sum up, it uses out of date evidence an improper grasp of biology, and if you look at this section http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/522.asp it even attacks the Muslim and Jewish faith for accepting evolution saying "Unfortunately, many so-called versions of these religions are really perversions, and are little distinguishable from atheism"
There is also a truly vicious attack on the Anglican faith for accepting evolution. If any creationist would like to counter these claims go right on ahead.
Relating to the previous post, mud-skippers are believed to be similar to the first vertebrates to go on land, sorry about the rant but I've just discovered this site and had to share it.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 16, 2006, 09:16:52 am
One of the first land-dwellers are the Hynerpeton. Besides, the bible says bats are birds, and whales are fishes, clearly the person who wrote it didn't understand biology.

Mammals all came from the same ancestor though, we came from mammal-like reptiles, namely Dimetrodon or Edaphosaurus, which could regulate their body temperature, that's why we are warm-blooded.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: mrodgers on March 16, 2006, 01:39:12 pm
One of the first land-dwellers are the Hynerpeton. Besides, the bible says bats are birds, and whales are fishes, clearly the person who wrote it didn't understand biology.

Mammals all came from the same ancestor though, we came from mammal-like reptiles, namely Dimetrodon or Edaphosaurus, which could regulate their body temperature, that's why we are warm-blooded.

I wasn't sure if anyone would know the names so I figured a little description would help.  You can see why someone who just saw a picture of the creature might think "rat" or something similar though.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 16, 2006, 03:24:00 pm
One of the first land-dwellers are the Hynerpeton. Besides, the bible says bats are birds, and whales are fishes, clearly the person who wrote it didn't understand biology.

Mammals all came from the same ancestor though, we came from mammal-like reptiles, namely Dimetrodon or Edaphosaurus, which could regulate their body temperature, that's why we are warm-blooded.
Well, they didn't really classify things like we do now.  It flew, it was a bird.
Oh, don't you guys know how breeding works? (not the obvious of course  :D)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 16, 2006, 04:01:18 pm
I'd like to mention for the record stop commenting on what the Bible said and comparing it to todays society. The fact is that the world changes and even though the teachings the Bible says are usually true(At least for me when I read the Bible I can relate to a lot of the things it says.)That doesn't mean the examples it uses are all "updated". Besides saying that the Bible is a bad resource because you compair the examples it sets to modern science just goes to show that you don't understand the Bible very much anyway.
//

I haven't completely dropped the existence of evolution. But In order to convince me that it exists for sure, I need to know how on earth would fish start evolving lungs when throughout their intire existence they lived in water. I know evolution exists because there are creatures like the whale that have extra limbs that they lost over time. However I don't believe that things come from nothing by natural means. Think about it...Everything either has existed forever or was created. Religion is the only source of information that can give us an answer god. If you truly believe they are wrong then your saying an intire 1/4 of the world is wrong. Evolution exists to an extent because there are humans with different colored skins. Every bloodline may have come from Adam and Eve, but when their children worked their way across the world they evolved different skin tones in order to survive in their new environment.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Vivec on March 16, 2006, 04:04:28 pm
This is not meant to offend anyone, but why is incest bad if Adam and Eve's kids had to do it a hell of a lot?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 16, 2006, 04:30:02 pm
Incest is bad because the gene structure isn't built that way. Adam and Eve were the ideal race not white, black, tan, or whatever, they were the perfect race. Their children probably looked almost exactly like that for a long time until they started evolving. Incest can be bad for the child nowadays, but in the past when Adam and Eve were the only ones there wasn't very much variety so the body didn't need to get angry at the people. The fact that people can't incest is because of the body's defence system is trying to keep humans genetics deverse.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Vivec on March 16, 2006, 04:31:03 pm
OK. That answers my question perfectly.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 16, 2006, 04:39:41 pm
Polymer

You asked earlier about Micro-turning into Macro. That is impossible in my belief I theorize that there are barriers separating animals into kinds. Evidence to back this up? There have been many experiments on certain insects, such as fruit-flys. The express purpose of these experiments have been to observe literally thousands of generations, reproducing under radiation to foster mutations. Even after all this, all they ever got was: a fly. Now I know that you might say thousands of generations is nowhere near enough. Fine. Give me evidence that micro can ever turn into macro. I don't have good evidence, and you have none, just a theory based on some bones turned into rocks, so...

I know evolution exists because there are creatures like the whale that have extra limbs that they lost over time.


As far as I know the only evidence given for this is some small bones that many Evolutionary textbooks claim are the vestigal remains of a pelvis. Hence the whole "lived in water moved to land moved back to water" shtick about whales. Nevermind that without these bones, certain muscles would have nowhere to attach to, and without those muscles the whale would be unable to give birth.
Quote from: werechicken
to sum up, it uses out of date evidence an improper grasp of biology
Remind me, in the light of this whole whale business, were you talking about Evolution or Creation there? Sure looks like Evolution to me.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 16, 2006, 04:55:38 pm
HOLY ****.How is it this topic is still going?You people that don't believe in Evolution know that your religions are only theory as well?So both need to be proven  ;).

[size=0pt]But evolution is much more real then any religion ^_^  :P[/size]
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 04:56:57 pm
I'm talking about creation.
micro evolution can turn into macro, it's just a matter of time. As the genetic changes build up the two different groups DNA start to become incompatible, it can be something as simple as the gene for one developmental protein, Also with lungfish - they developed lungs to survive in water that was oxygen depleted, a happy side effect of this meant that they could also survive on land for a longer period of time, then some fish had fins in a similar position to the mud skippers allowing more efficient movement on the land, this eventually led to amphibians.

incidentally the point I was making about bad biology, I actually meant bad science and out of date as well experiments have shown that simple organic chemical, the precursors to life can arise spontaneously from certain chemicals all it needs is some sort of spark, and with the highly volatile atmosphere at the time that wouldn't have been a problem.

Also that 'shtick' is backed up by genetic data
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 16, 2006, 05:22:47 pm
Well, they didn't really classify things like we do now.  It flew, it was a bird.

Weird then, why didn't they classify the pterosaurs as a bird, too?, did they even know of its existance?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 05:25:37 pm
possibly anatomical characteristics, you should have said what you where talking about
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 16, 2006, 05:26:09 pm
Incest is bad because the gene structure isn't built that way. Adam and Eve were the ideal race not white, black, tan, or whatever, they were the perfect race. Their children probably looked almost exactly like that for a long time until they started evolving. Incest can be bad for the child nowadays, but in the past when Adam and Eve were the only ones there wasn't very much variety so the body didn't need to get angry at the people. The fact that people can't incest is because of the body's defence system is trying to keep humans genetics deverse.
Wrongo, Adam was black.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 16, 2006, 05:28:41 pm
possibly anatomical characteristics, you should have said what you where talking about
If bats could be classified as bird,s, surely pterosaurs can, and I think it is in Levicticus Chapter 1.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 05:30:25 pm
not the biblical adam, also bodily defences have nothing to do with why incest is wrong, if the same family kept mating with each over and their kids did that as well, tiny genetic flaws would be exagerrated, increasing the likelyhood of disease and reducing the childs fitness.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 05:31:58 pm
possibly anatomical characteristics, you should have said what you where talking about
If bats could be classified as bird,s, surely pterosaurs can, and I think it is in Levicticus Chapter 1.

If your talking about the bible I really wouldn't know but in animals the bat is different to a bird because of the bone structure of the wing differs between the two
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 16, 2006, 05:38:11 pm
Then birds and bats have different bone structure, too.

Leiticus Chapter 11, sorry.

It even makes another mistakes that there are flying insects with 4 legs. Hahahaha.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 05:39:15 pm
do you have a bible next to your PC or something?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 16, 2006, 05:49:03 pm
I'm talking about creation.
micro evolution can turn into macro, it's just a matter of time. As the genetic changes build up the two different groups DNA start to become incompatible, it can be something as simple as the gene for one developmental protein, Also with lungfish - they developed lungs to survive in water that was oxygen depleted, a happy side effect of this meant that they could also survive on land for a longer period of time, then some fish had fins in a similar position to the mud skippers allowing more efficient movement on the land, this eventually led to amphibians.

As I said, you have a theory. What's the evidence for the theory? You say this happens as if it was fact, but it's not. No one has been able to prove it.

incidentally the point I was making about bad biology, I actually meant bad science and out of date as well experiments have shown that simple organic chemical, the precursors to life can arise spontaneously from certain chemicals all it needs is some sort of spark, and with the highly volatile atmosphere at the time that wouldn't have been a problem.

Also that 'shtick' is backed up by genetic data

Look again at the experiment you're referring to. For one: there was no oxygen used in the experiment. With oxygen, the amino acids could not have formed. Each step was kept away form the others. The chemicals were not in a chemical soup, such as evolutionists claim existed. Finally, all he made was a few amino acids, out of the hundreds needed for even the simplest of life forms. Additionally, half of the acids were "right-handed" half were "left-handed." No known life-form has anything but all right, or all left. Additionally, if even one or two are off at all, life could not form. So basically, nothing anywhere close to life, not even the "precursors" to life were formed. That's like saying because someone managed to make a few bolts, they got the starts of what it takes to build a space shuttle. I guess you could say that's technically true, but they got a long way to go.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 06:06:06 pm
hox genes have been shown to be linked, however genetic engineering can only go so far,

also no oxygen was used, because very little oxygen would have been present very early in the history of the earth, we know this because of specific erosion properties of rocks dated to that period, another thing, bolts can't build or arrange themselves, even the most simple organic molecules can form some order, I have no idea where you got that left handed right handed stuff from, also amino acids can group together to form proteins, these proteins may be able to self replicate or do so in a manner similar to prions, in short your nuts and bolts argument is biased by your own belief. You believe both life and the bolts where created and need outside help to be assembled. many of the organic molecules could eventually form together to create a very primitive organism.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 16, 2006, 06:23:24 pm
I have a feeling that everyone took what I said horribly wrong :(
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 06:26:32 pm
I think this thread was just smoldering, and it will continue smoldering and occasionally turning into a hellish firestorm every so often until the moderators kill it then bury it in a un-marked grave a midnight
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 16, 2006, 06:42:58 pm
That's exactely why I"M supposed to make these threads.  So I can kill it an burry it in an unmarked grave at midnight  :P
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 06:43:48 pm
I don't think this thread will die, not naturally at any rate
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 16, 2006, 06:45:51 pm
I think I will revive my old thread for this  ;D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 16, 2006, 06:49:38 pm
I don't think this thread will die, not naturally at any rate

I don't know why, but that sounds really funny to me. :D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 07:09:26 pm
All we need is a creationist or the rest of the world to post something disagreeable to the other side and this thread will live until the date spore comes out and then we all forget what a forum is
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 16, 2006, 07:30:04 pm
How do you know it won't last that long :) And just out of curiousity exactly how do those little genetic defects come by when sombody incenses I figure it woulden't happen to Adam and Eve because they were the Ideal humans and their genetics would stay the same for a while until their bodys naturally adapted to their enviorments and little tiny imperfections started forming.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 07:36:00 pm
most people have a few defective genes, but usually there is also a copy of the correct gene, repeated inbreeding would result in the repressed defective genes becoming more pronounced, i.e. having two copies of that defective gene, this is why many of the European royalties in the 19th century and before suffered from such conditions as hemophilia
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 16, 2006, 07:44:31 pm
maybe someone posted this but, this is an example of evo and why it would happen. say that we started out as fish. there is a large group of fish that lay their eggs, or have their young, in the same spot every year. now, eventually the path gets blocked and they have to slide across sand and such, then, they keep getting stuck and die. eventually rear flippers on their behinds slowly become leg-like. then, they can get across. now, the fish would then be faced with the challenge of having their birth spot destroyed. now since  most other fish would eat their eggs/young, they decide to lay their eggs on land, thus they evolve bigger legs. eventually their legs become large, and they develop a primitive lung. this goes on until they come face to face with more problems as the land changes and they are forced onto land. remember, this didnt have to happen, its just an example. :)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Dreyfuss on March 16, 2006, 07:49:45 pm
I'm going to make a time capsule and put a note that says "Please bring me to the future!" and has my contact info in it and perhaps when time travel becomes a reality they might find the capsule at some point and when time machines are as common as cars they'll come back to get me (in an alternate timeline unfortunately :( ) and my alternate self can go on all kinds of cool adventures xP

What does that have to do with evolution...?

Hell if I know, just felt like saying it x3
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 07:52:12 pm
could you go back in time and inform whoever is writing the bible about the wonders of evolution so that topics like this will never exist?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 16, 2006, 07:56:30 pm
maybe someone posted this but, this is an example of evo and why it would happen. say that we started out as fish. there is a large group of fish that lay their eggs, or have their young, in the same spot every year. now, eventually the path gets blocked and they have to slide across sand and such, then, they keep getting stuck and die. eventually rear flippers on their behinds slowly become leg-like. then, they can get across. now, the fish would then be faced with the challenge of having their birth spot destroyed. now since  most other fish would eat their eggs/young, they decide to lay their eggs on land, thus they evolve bigger legs. eventually their legs become large, and they develop a primitive lung. this goes on until they come face to face with more problems as the land changes and they are forced onto land. remember, this didnt have to happen, its just an example. :)
So the rear flippers come after all the fish are dead?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 08:00:53 pm
holey heck I'm sure I posted this.... hang on... ah here it is
with lungfish - they developed lungs to survive in water that was oxygen depleted, a happy side effect of this meant that they could also survive on land for a longer period of time, then some fish had fins in a similar position to the mud skippers allowing more efficient movement on the land, this eventually led to amphibians.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Vivec on March 16, 2006, 08:03:56 pm
Also with lungfish - they developed lungs to survive in water that was oxygen depleted, a happy side effect of this meant that they could also survive on land for a longer period of time, then some fish had fins in a similar position to the mud skippers allowing more efficient movement on the land, this eventually led to amphibians.

You did, already.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 08:05:25 pm
since we were raising a point that had been done a short whil ago I thought I might as well raise this fact
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Dreyfuss on March 16, 2006, 08:20:02 pm
Seeing as how the evolution thread got closed... AGAIN... I'm going to be all philosophical here instead.

Quote
Sorry Sum, but I have to address your comments on the first page.  Life was not created spontaneously, by either evolution or creationism, it was a gradual process of chemical reactions.  It is possible for scientists today to mimic that same process and create organic material, but not DNA, that took a long-ass time to come together, and we don't have the technology yet to make functional DNA from scratch, and you can't have life without it.  So no, it was not "*blink* ohmygodit'salive"!

As for the whole Big Bang thing, you think there was just one?  Matter has existed and will exist forever.  There's no beginning nor any end.  Our Big Bang was just one of an infinite number and eventually everything will become a single, super-compact point of space once again and that will be the end of the universe as we know it before another Big Bang takes place in the very next moment without any delay and another universe begins.  However since time travel is possible, once we discover it we will come in contact with an infinite number of lifeforms from not only our galaxy or even our universe, but all sentient life from every instance of the universe for all eternity, throwing us into the true final frontier, a neverending plane of time that stretches infinitely both ways where we can never be completely erased nor can we completely dominate, making humankind immortal in a sense.

Now there is also the question of how could there have always been matter.  Well to say God created the universe would imply that God was around before the universe.  Well then what created God?  He can't create himself if he doesn't exist yet.  That can't be right, something had to create God.  No?  How?  If you can believe God has existed forever why can't you believe that the universe has, God or no God?  You can't explain his creation so there's no reason to dismiss the possibility of an eternal universe because you can't unexplain it either.  I just accept that that must be how it is, because to say there was ever a time of no matter would get into some REALLY weird temporal paradoxes that would make a person's brain implode.

I'm neither an evolutionist nor a creationist, as both are possibilities.  I'm an... eternalist?  It's possible that life on Earth began without any outside interference, or perhaps some advanced race used the monolith tool on us, who knows?  I don't really believe in the supernatural in the religious sense.  I believe there are yet-unexplained phenomena, and that there's a possibility of "intelligent design" by alien life, not neccessarily a "god" in the religious context, however I also believe that science is the most concrete way to explain anything, so I am neither.  I go with whichever side can prove themselves and lack of evidence for one side does NOT constitute evidence for the other.  I don't much see why it matters though, because one day we ourselves will be "gods" and then such questions will be irrelevant.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 08:24:32 pm
deep
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GrrrArrgh on March 16, 2006, 08:25:29 pm
Seeing as how the evolution thread got closed... AGAIN... I'm going to be all philosophical here instead.


Yeah that didn't last long. History tends to repeat itself though, and there's a good chance it'll open up again and swallow us all.

Err.. I suppose I should actually contribute something to the discussion, if it can actually be called a discussion again. The gist of where I stand with the issue is thus: I support evolution and a naturally forming universe and the big bang, but don't directly oppose the existence of a supreme being that may or may not have started it all off. I can live with the idea that some eternal entity set things in motion, but don't think any god created Earth or humans or that it's possible such a being exists that gives half a damn about humanity or is even aware of its presence in the infinite expanse of the cosmos. A benevolent, loving god is a logical improbability for me and I view the words religion and mythology as being nearly synonymous. If there is a god that created the Earth and everything on it(which there isn't), then that god is a sadistic bastard.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 16, 2006, 08:30:16 pm
no, your thinking of EVERY Evolution Vs Religion debate
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Dreyfuss on March 17, 2006, 12:39:16 am
Anyone who's watched a decent amount of Star Trek knows about the Q.  There's your god :P
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Lambsquirter on March 17, 2006, 12:56:18 am
The Q crew..lol

Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 17, 2006, 01:25:11 am
Anyone who's watched a decent amount of Star Trek knows about the Q.  There's your god :P
That would certainly fit the sadistic bastard model
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 17, 2006, 05:52:39 am
Anyone who's watched a decent amount of Star Trek knows about the Q.  There's your god :P
That would certainly fit the sadistic bastard model


wow normally I'm the guy who viscously attacks religion, and can I just say that I'm going to make an effort now to get this thread back on topic by saying that I think intelligent design people will adore this game for reasons that have been said
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Shivore on March 17, 2006, 06:02:58 am
Agreed, and those of us, such as myself, who advocate a more literal intrpretaion of the Bible will still enjoy the game, by merely ignoring the Evolutionary overtones. So what's the conflict again? I don't think there really is one.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 17, 2006, 06:53:44 am
The original post was started with a guy saying "I think when the game comes out the christians will be angry because this game teachs about religion!" And that started this debate on weather evolution or creatonism exists. Out of curiousity have you guys ever seen a healing?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 17, 2006, 08:08:39 am
healing?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 17, 2006, 08:20:13 am
The original post was started with a guy saying "I think when the game comes out the christians will be angry because this game teachs about religion!" And that started this debate on weather evolution or creatonism exists. Out of curiousity have you guys ever seen a healing?
What? Praise the lord I can walk type stuff. It works by the placebo effect.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 17, 2006, 10:21:50 am
oh that type of healing, I thought they didn't do that anymore because most of the people are actors, and there are some people who'll use any excuse to heal
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 17, 2006, 02:35:28 pm
Ahh so you haven't just curious. Although the placebo affect exists(I would know because I'm a hypnotist) that doesn't mean it can mend broken legs. Before you call me a lier and you can't tell me it doesn't exist until you prove that it can't be done which in itself is just as impossible as proving wether creationism or evolution exists.

and wikichiken they do still perform healings it happens at my church once every year.:)
 
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 17, 2006, 02:53:25 pm
Broken legs mend themselves. There are no miracles. Or at least not stupidly obvious ones. if I was God I wouldnt give priests the ability to heal of all people.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 17, 2006, 03:13:22 pm
Not priests anybody with enough faith. Technically according to the Bible if a person has enough will to do something then they can do it. Supposedly their is a story about a man who proved he could levitate however I have no knowledge of this. What I do know is that I have a cousin who was healed two times by a guy with great faith. Once he cured a concussion and another time he helped his broken leg stop hurting. If you still think it's a placebo it would have to be a very powerful placebo to cure pain that was with him for two months.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 17, 2006, 03:22:04 pm
The human brain has a fantastic ability to ignore pain if you trick it properly. To test this properly you would need three people with identical concussions, give one the 'healing' one a fake healing performed by an actor and one nothing... well, make that 300 people with identical concussion :P

Suffice to say faith healing probably works just as well as homeopathy.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 17, 2006, 03:24:44 pm
Well that depends, was the pain actually caused by nerves firing or was it illusorary pain? In either case there have been cases where yes the placebo affect has done things like this. The concussion I would say was probably fixed naturally by the bones mending (though he was lucky not to suffer anything else). Don't discount the ability of the human mind to manipulate our perceptions.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 17, 2006, 03:26:31 pm
The human brain has a fantastic ability to ignore pain if you trick it properly. To test this properly you would need three people with identical concussions, give one the 'healing' one a fake healing performed by an actor and one nothing... well, make that 300 people with identical concussion :P

Suffice to say faith healing probably works just as well as homeopathy.

Which isn't to say that combining such with actual treatments isn't the best thing to do. Thousands of people die from treatable things each year because they choose to go to a faith healing center and end up dying there from a treatable disease.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 17, 2006, 03:42:47 pm
You didn't here the story  ;). The first time after his leg was healed(This was instintaniously) he spent 2 months convincing himself that it was all noncense. Of course then he got the concussion which hurt really bad for another month. He begged the guy to help him again and instintaneoulsy was healed. This story may have been altered when he was telling us about it and It may not even be true, but I trust my cousin.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 17, 2006, 04:43:25 pm
Then convince the guy to be allowed to be studyied to prove that it is true. I'm not saying that it isn't true I'm just saying a lack of opposing evidence (which isn't hard seeing as we have very little evidence) doesn't prove something true.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 17, 2006, 04:55:46 pm
Thats understandable. It's hard to prove healing because mainly everybody that can do it doesn't want to. Unfortunately the point of Religion is not to prove it's true, but to believe it is true, and the people that eventually get that concept in their mind can perform healing. I personally doubt it is fake because it is hard to fool humans by acting for thousands of years.

edit//
That is also why most people who appose evolution don't have very good answers because they base their judgment on fate. I actually hate myself because I can't accept something unless I come up with some logic behind it. (for example I didn't believe the world was created in 6 days. However after researching it some more I found that scientists who studied Bible history stated that in a village that used the Bible as their root language a day mean a passage of time not 24 hours. Therefore the universe was made in 6 different passages of time.)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 07:20:15 am
exactly especially people with things like cancer or a tumour, where the faith healers tell them if they go to the doctor to get healed then their method of healing will not work, scaring these vulnerable people into not getting the chemo-therapy they badly need
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 18, 2006, 07:29:58 am
Thats understandable. It's hard to prove healing because mainly everybody that can do it doesn't want to. Unfortunately the point of Religion is not to prove it's true, but to believe it is true, and the people that eventually get that concept in their mind can perform healing. I personally doubt it is fake because it is hard to fool humans by acting for thousands of years.

edit//
That is also why most people who appose evolution don't have very good answers because they base their judgment on fate. I actually hate myself because I can't accept something unless I come up with some logic behind it. (for example I didn't believe the world was created in 6 days. However after researching it some more I found that scientists who studied Bible history stated that in a village that used the Bible as their root language a day mean a passage of time not 24 hours. Therefore the universe was made in 6 different passages of time.)

Hard to fool humans? Are you kidding? Its all too easy to manipulate people, even educated, intelligent people. Look up P.T. Barnum and (a more recent example) Derren Brown.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 07:37:15 am
lol I doubt he'll be doing that stuff in London any time soon, I only wish I had my golf clubs back then.....
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 18, 2006, 07:51:52 am
*whacks the thread over the head with a golf club a couple of times in hopes that it will die*

*is sorely disappointed*

*goes on a drinking spree instead*
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 07:57:01 am
this thread will only die when the moderators call down the "wrath of Steve"
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 18, 2006, 08:05:16 am
One can hope. One can only hope.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 18, 2006, 10:12:06 am
Thats understandable. It's hard to prove healing because mainly everybody that can do it doesn't want to. Unfortunately the point of Religion is not to prove it's true, but to believe it is true, and the people that eventually get that concept in their mind can perform healing. I personally doubt it is fake because it is hard to fool humans by acting for thousands of years.

edit//
That is also why most people who appose evolution don't have very good answers because they base their judgment on fate. I actually hate myself because I can't accept something unless I come up with some logic behind it. (for example I didn't believe the world was created in 6 days. However after researching it some more I found that scientists who studied Bible history stated that in a village that used the Bible as their root language a day mean a passage of time not 24 hours. Therefore the universe was made in 6 different passages of time.)

Hard to fool humans? Are you kidding? Its all too easy to manipulate people, even educated, intelligent people. Look up P.T. Barnum and (a more recent example) Derren Brown.

I know it isn't difficult to fool humans it's been done many times before, but humans tricks as I understand could never usually lasts more then a century.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 18, 2006, 10:15:38 am
Thats understandable. It's hard to prove healing because mainly everybody that can do it doesn't want to. Unfortunately the point of Religion is not to prove it's true, but to believe it is true, and the people that eventually get that concept in their mind can perform healing. I personally doubt it is fake because it is hard to fool humans by acting for thousands of years.

edit//
That is also why most people who appose evolution don't have very good answers because they base their judgment on fate. I actually hate myself because I can't accept something unless I come up with some logic behind it. (for example I didn't believe the world was created in 6 days. However after researching it some more I found that scientists who studied Bible history stated that in a village that used the Bible as their root language a day mean a passage of time not 24 hours. Therefore the universe was made in 6 different passages of time.)

Hard to fool humans? Are you kidding? Its all too easy to manipulate people, even educated, intelligent people. Look up P.T. Barnum and (a more recent example) Derren Brown.

I know it isn't difficult to fool humans it's been done many times before, but humans tricks as I understand could never usually lasts more then a century.
We believe  in the same crap now as we did hundreds of years ago but repackaged. In medieval times people had similar experiences to so called 'alien abductions' but they blamed it on witches. They used to have eye of newt, now we have homeopathy and the Atkins diet. They had phoney alchemists and we have confidence tricksters. They had flat earth and we have creationism.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 18, 2006, 10:21:44 am
Thats understandable. It's hard to prove healing because mainly everybody that can do it doesn't want to. Unfortunately the point of Religion is not to prove it's true, but to believe it is true, and the people that eventually get that concept in their mind can perform healing. I personally doubt it is fake because it is hard to fool humans by acting for thousands of years.

edit//
That is also why most people who appose evolution don't have very good answers because they base their judgment on fate. I actually hate myself because I can't accept something unless I come up with some logic behind it. (for example I didn't believe the world was created in 6 days. However after researching it some more I found that scientists who studied Bible history stated that in a village that used the Bible as their root language a day mean a passage of time not 24 hours. Therefore the universe was made in 6 different passages of time.)

Hard to fool humans? Are you kidding? Its all too easy to manipulate people, even educated, intelligent people. Look up P.T. Barnum and (a more recent example) Derren Brown.

I know it isn't difficult to fool humans it's been done many times before, but humans tricks as I understand could never usually lasts more then a century.
We believe  in the same crap now as we did hundreds of years ago but repackaged. In medieval times people had similar experiences to so called 'alien abductions' but they blamed it on witches. They used to have eye of newt, now we have homeopathy and the Atkins diet. They had phoney alchemists and we have confidence tricksters. They had flat earth and we have creationism evolution.

Works both ways  ;)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 18, 2006, 10:23:56 am
no it doesnt. The correct version would be: They had Evolution and we have Evolution (the ancient greeks thought of the idea but had no idea about the mechanism by which it might occur)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 18, 2006, 10:37:07 am
no it doesnt. The correct version would be: They had Evolution and we have Evolution (the ancient greeks thought of the idea but had no idea about the mechanism by which it might occur)
  Well they also had creationism them.  I think your just trying to make the idea look absurd without giving actual evidence.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 18, 2006, 10:45:59 am
Yes, they did have creationism of a sort. I believe they thought the earth was the offspring of titans. Creation myths change wildly. Before you say 'scientific facts change wildly' please consider that at that point there was very little in the way of scientific method, a scientific theory changes because there is a good reason for it to be changed or because it has outlived its usefulness. Creation myths change in the retelling and tend to carry on until all their believers die off even if they are ludicrous beyond belief. Did you know that the universe is made of the testicles of some god's father?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 18, 2006, 10:48:53 am
I wasn't refering to the Greeks.  I should have said that.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 18, 2006, 10:52:46 am
It doesnt matter, there are hundreds of thousands of creation myths. It seems terriblky arrogant to only say one of them is right. Will all the Hindus go to hell because they dont believe in the bible? Even if they werent exposed to christianity? What about the Jews, the Muslims, the Sihk, the Zoroastrians, the Rastafarians, the Wikka and all the other world religions. They cant all be right but they can certainly all be wrong. All religions hold some truth to an extent and most give a good set of rules by which to live our lives but once you get to the details they just arent correct.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 11:02:22 am
if you look at the theory which is most plausable based on an objective view evolution is the hands down winner, there are many peices of evidence in support of it
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 18, 2006, 01:15:04 pm
Works both ways  ;)
Actually, no, evolution is a non-universe-revolves-around-humans idea, while flat earth and creationism is.
Even the bible says the earth is flat.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 18, 2006, 01:24:56 pm
Works both ways  ;)
Actually, no, evolution is a non-universe-revolves-around-humans idea, while flat earth and creationism is.
Even the bible says the earth is flat.
Uh, really?...have you even opened a Bible to see?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 01:42:02 pm
no but the bible does say that the moon and the sun are set in crystal spheres
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Vivec on March 18, 2006, 01:42:54 pm
no but the bible does say that the moon and the sun are set in crystal spheres

Have you ever been to the sun? Or inside the moon? I don't think so!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 18, 2006, 01:45:04 pm
no but the bible does say that the moon and the sun are set in crystal spheres
Uh...mmmmkay
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 01:50:03 pm
no but the bible does say that the moon and the sun are set in crystal spheres

Have you ever been to the sun? Or inside the moon? I don't think so!

WHAT!? I said SET in cyrstal as in the moon is encased in it, and people have been on the moon
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 18, 2006, 01:58:13 pm
no but the bible does say that the moon and the sun are set in crystal spheres

Have you ever been to the sun? Or inside the moon? I don't think so!

WHAT!? I said SET in cyrstal as in the moon is encased in it, and people have been on the moon
Still have no idea where you got that idea.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 02:10:33 pm
In a documentary called 'the history of light' it mentions how a guy noticed a comet moving between the planets, which was counter to the crystal planets theory.
oh just found a link with the sphere stuff mentioned http://www2.nd.edu/Departments//Maritain/etext/schnt68.htm
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 18, 2006, 02:14:44 pm
In a documentary called 'the history of light' it mentions how a guy noticed a comet moving between the planets, which was counter to the crystal planets theory.
oh just found a link with the sphere stuff mentioned http://www2.nd.edu/Departments//Maritain/etext/schnt68.htm
Still don't know where you got that being in the Bible.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 02:20:37 pm
okay my mistake I mistook a religous scripture for the bible, my bad
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 02:28:34 pm
its only a game and christians arnt very easily offended by little things like that, unless a muslim man said it to them.

what planet do you live on?
christians hate harry potter and what the hell do you mean by "unless a muslim man said it"
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Brutus on March 18, 2006, 02:48:22 pm
nvm you didnt understand what i meant
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Vivec on March 18, 2006, 02:50:02 pm
nvm you didnt understand what i meant

Well, then, why don't you explain it?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 18, 2006, 03:21:18 pm
It's true there are tons of religions, but the fact still remains why do those religions exist? It couldn't have been because some random guy stood up and said I SAW A VISION. There had to be something huge that started this change. As for the Greeks most of their gods are based off of emotions and physical needs beyond there control. so if they didn't want to do something, but it still happend there must have been a greater force. God is different I respect all religions that believe in god just because they all read the Bible differently. The important thing is to have faith and personally if you don't believe in god you don't believe in an afterlife, and if that's the case then I have no idea why you feel happy. Haven't you ever asked a greater power and realized the next week your question was answered? Haven't you ever gotten scared at night wondering what it would be like if all of a sudden you died and your thoughts and emotions would just dissapear...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 03:32:40 pm
unless you believe in reincarnation, which might not involve god and just dump you in the another body
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 18, 2006, 04:33:38 pm
It's true there are tons of religions, but the fact still remains why do those religions exist? It couldn't have been because some random guy stood up and said I SAW A VISION. There had to be something huge that started this change. As for the Greeks most of their gods are based off of emotions and physical needs beyond there control. so if they didn't want to do something, but it still happend there must have been a greater force. God is different I respect all religions that believe in god just because they all read the Bible differently. The important thing is to have faith and personally if you don't believe in god you don't believe in an afterlife, and if that's the case then I have no idea why you feel happy. Haven't you ever asked a greater power and realized the next week your question was answered? Haven't you ever gotten scared at night wondering what it would be like if all of a sudden you died and your thoughts and emotions would just dissapear...
The absence of afterlife is to me an incentive to enjoy this life, because its the only one I'm going to get. If you view life as just a minor inconvenience before an eternity of bliss then why even bother to do anything? That whole 'atheists are unfulfilled thing is just religious propaganda in my opinion'. If I do good deeds its not because I'm trying to appease a deity or because I'm afraid of going to hell, I do it for the good of society and for the species.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Dreyfuss on March 18, 2006, 05:41:46 pm
It's true there are tons of religions, but the fact still remains why do those religions exist? It couldn't have been because some random guy stood up and said I SAW A VISION. There had to be something huge that started this change. As for the Greeks most of their gods are based off of emotions and physical needs beyond there control. so if they didn't want to do something, but it still happend there must have been a greater force. God is different I respect all religions that believe in god just because they all read the Bible differently. The important thing is to have faith and personally if you don't believe in god you don't believe in an afterlife, and if that's the case then I have no idea why you feel happy. Haven't you ever asked a greater power and realized the next week your question was answered? Haven't you ever gotten scared at night wondering what it would be like if all of a sudden you died and your thoughts and emotions would just dissapear...
The absence of afterlife is to me an incentive to enjoy this life, because its the only one I'm going to get. If you view life as just a minor inconvenience before an eternity of bliss then why even bother to do anything? That whole 'atheists are unfulfilled thing is just religious propaganda in my opinion'. If I do good deeds its not because I'm trying to appease a deity or because I'm afraid of going to hell, I do it for the good of society and for the species.
Bingo.  Belief in an afterlife and a forgiving god makes people lose their drive to improve themselves.  It's sad that, on average, we're much stupider now than we were several centuries ago.  This cushy lifestyle is making our minds atrophy.

And it's pretty stupid of you to assume a question wouldn't get answered if you didn't ask a higher power.  It's called insight, and god has nothing to do with it.  Basic psychology.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 05:57:54 pm
Bingo.  Belief in an afterlife and a forgiving god makes people lose their drive to improve themselves.  It's sad that, on average, we're much stupider now than we were several centuries ago.  This cushy lifestyle is making our minds atrophy.

And it's pretty stupid of you to assume a question wouldn't get answered if you didn't ask a higher power.  It's called insight, and god has nothing to do with it.  Basic psychology.

a bit on the harsh side but someone had to say it, I personally don't think we're stupider than several centuries ago, it just that everyones less curious
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 18, 2006, 06:35:54 pm
If I do good deeds its not because I'm trying to appease a deity or because I'm afraid of going to hell, I do it for the good of society and for the species.

Are your saying it's bad for people to do good deeds for a god? If what you said is true then if you trace humans all the way back to the beginning of time when humans were more primitive, religion was their only conscience. Otherwise the only instinct we would have had would be to survive. If there weren't some humans with moral obligations to pass down to their children the human race would be unable to evolve intelligently because they woulden't have worked together. Take lord of the flies for example. They were kids with no morals no instructions on how to be polite and such. So what did they do? They killed each other! If there was no religion then the human race would be no different then animals who's only intent was about itself and itself alone.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 06:37:58 pm
mate you've missed the point, they where saying that doing good deeds to appease a higher being is fundamentally motivated by selfish ideals, whereas an atheist would do a good deed for the sake of doing that good deed
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 18, 2006, 07:15:50 pm
They were making it sound like a bad thing and I think they think it is a bad thing. But Morals were started because people believed in religion and passed it on to their children. My point is that If there was no religion then the world would be a much darker place.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 07:20:50 pm
The absence of afterlife is to me an incentive to enjoy this life, because its the only one I'm going to get. If you view life as just a minor inconvenience before an eternity of bliss then why even bother to do anything? That whole 'atheists are unfulfilled thing is just religious propaganda in my opinion'. If I do good deeds its not because I'm trying to appease a deity or because I'm afraid of going to hell, I do it for the good of society and for the species.

To me this sounds more like a good thing, it's basically saying what I said in my last posting, that in many ways if an atheist does something good it is based on a sense of morality rather than out of fear of divine retribution if they don't.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 18, 2006, 08:03:04 pm
Its only a negative thing if you veiw the doing of good things with the express purpose of only helping yourself as bad. If motivations hold now sway for you then yes doing a good act without actually caring about the person to only benefit yourself could be seen as a slightly bad act, but I would be inclined to say that its not really that bad of thing because after all I do beleive in capitalism and thats its' entire premise  :P
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 18, 2006, 08:30:23 pm
Another thing to keep in mind is if morality is natural. Do we believe it's good to help other people because our body is built that way or is it because our parents learned what they believe is right and taught it to us. Because then if we use your logic we are only helping other people because our parents told us to :-\ in the end they both are essentially the same thing.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 18, 2006, 09:13:10 pm
It's sad that, on average, we're much stupider now than we were several centuries ago.  This cushy lifestyle is making our minds atrophy.

Next thing you'll want us to go back up the trees because we're getting soft down here on the ground. ::)


Another thing to keep in mind is if morality is natural. Do we believe it's good to help other people because our body is built that way or is it because our parents learned what they believe is right and taught it to us. Because then if we use your logic we are only helping other people because our parents told us to :-\ in the end they both are essentially the same thing.

Read any of the great philosophers on morality. Kant, especially, goes to great lengths to show that morality need not be grounded in divine providence, but can (and should, in his opinion) result from logic.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 09:20:28 pm
personally I prefer Neitchze  :D
seriously though it could be argues that we evolved morality as a way of being able to act for the good of the group
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 18, 2006, 09:34:58 pm
personally I prefer Neitchze  :D

You realize Nietzsche's argumentation stems from the belief that man cannot live without (the) god(s), but that we've gone and 'killed' the divine anyway? (This is the source of the old "God is dead" quote, which is usually taken so massively out of context that it makes my teeth hurt.)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 18, 2006, 09:40:45 pm
I was referring to his more sociopathic viewpoints.......
plus some of the best philosophy quotes are Neitchze "when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back"
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Golgrig on March 18, 2006, 10:03:30 pm
A strong sense of survival is good morally, i don't follow the ten commandments out of a fear of god.
i follow "most" man made laws out of a sense of survival, prison is detrimental to personal survival,
there are times i consider breaking laws out of personal freedom yet i rarely do not because my actions would be wrong or sinful but because i know all "actions have consequences"
i don't think that a religion can totaly motivate morals because a fundamentalist religous belife in an afterlife kills people ever day in the middle east: terrorist suicide bombers kill because the don't fear consequences

now me i don't believe in an afterlife and i wish to remain alive and free to act as i wish as long as possible
so i don't: kill, steal, or commit adultery

I lie often, i give my respect to those who earn it, i have no god and don't worship idols, i am not jealous only suspicious, and i definatly keep the sabbath holy: i don't roll, Also, dude, 'creationist' is not the preferred nomenclature. 'scientificly-impared', please

it takes a lot more time admitedly to show a child why playing by societies rules if important, if you just gave them strict rules from on high it'd be easier but i figure it pays off better in the end.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: slugfly on March 18, 2006, 11:26:33 pm
actually, Nietzsche states that society and culture could not have developed without gods, but now the belief in afterworlds and gods is poisoning culture.  He has outlived his purpose and now lies fed by tubes and intraveinous, suffering, yet we still refuse to pull the plug and begin choosing our own paths.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 18, 2006, 11:42:22 pm
Golgrog I was talking about the beginning. From your description you are good because you are afraid of being punished. There was a time where people did not get punished for their actions. Now say a primitive human found that there was a nice pile of food on the ground that just happend to belong to their neighboring family. Do you think they really would have thought twice about stealing? Now Say the family lost their food and were hungry and asked somebody to help them, do you also think that any other tribe would have cared less about them if they all had the same philosophy? Your right it is a fight for survival, but there was a time where there were no laws to influence our decision and so the bases of society couldn't have evolved unless they learned to work together. That's what religion helped.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 19, 2006, 12:28:35 am
If religion is neccessary for us to be civil to each other then how come chimps and other social animals dont kill each other? (within the group, there is of course inter-group fighting)
Chimps certainly dont believe in a God but they will not steal each others bananas to the extent where others starve, they'll fight a bit but not to the point of killing each other, they will look after sick or injured chimps at expense to themselves.

The 'punishment' people get is self regulating. When animals first became social they probably stole food from each other all the time and it likely led to chaos and the extinction of the group. The groups which had the drive not to steal or kill each other too much survived and became our ancestors. This not only explains why humans are basically civil but also why they are selfish and violent to an extent, they are just selfish and violent enough not to do permanent harm to society and the species as a whole (from a vry simple viewpoint)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: slugfly on March 19, 2006, 01:15:31 am
chimps and other animals have a policing system.  In the case of Wolves and Lions it's a hierarchal pecking order.  In the case of apes (and possibly also with wolves) interior disputes are quickly put down by the alpha.  Take away the alpha and infighting breaks out turning so severe as to shatter the tribe.  Eventually we began having villages full of people.  Though I doubt that the original intent of religion was to impose law (I'm sure it was a quest for understanding), law was crucial to ensure that people developed culture.  Since law had to be above any one person it would stand to reason that things discovered as "inherent truths" (don't kill, don't steal, don't eat dirty animals) had to fall under the realm of divine law.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Golgrig on March 19, 2006, 01:22:44 am
Self interest saves more live than the police

Golgrog I was talking about the beginning. From your description you are good because you are afraid of being punished.

Ha Ha Ha me a good person now where did you get that idea, acording to the bible i'm as damned as anyone, my actions are goverened by an overwhelming sense of self preservation and personal honor, that does not mean i will never kill or steal just that proper motivation does not at this time exist.  i only follow laws because breaking them wouldn't benefit me much, but if i had to I'd lie cheat steal and kill to survive, save my family and friends, protect my country or the human race,


to use "the lord of the flies" as an example people are normaly fairly peacful they requier only attention, food, and sleep to be happy; take away one and you provide proper motivation to act in an anti social manner, don't ever pretent you live among civilized people because most of us are capable of terrible things when things get bad, every last one of us no matter what religion will kill to survive and don't forget it.


my own morality is motivated by personal survival and honor not out of a fear of punishment by some higher power, I wonder what your moral motivations are, what makes you tick or squirm?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 19, 2006, 02:00:41 am
Quote

 I wonder what your moral motivations are, what makes you tick or squirm?


Running out of cheetos, don't you dare eat my cheetos.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tonjevic on March 19, 2006, 02:50:41 am
If religion is necessary for us to be civil to each other then how come chimps and other social animals don't kill each other? (within the group, there is of course inter-group fighting)
Chimps certainly don't believe in a God but they will not steal each others bananas to the extent where others starve, they'll fight a bit but not to the point of killing each other, they will look after sick or injured chimps at expense to themselves.

The 'punishment' people get is self regulating. When animals first became social they probably stole food from each other all the time and it likely led to chaos and the extinction of the group. The groups which had the drive not to steal or kill each other too much survived and became our ancestors. This not only explains why humans are basically civil but also why they are selfish and violent to an extent, they are just selfish and violent enough not to do permanent harm to society and the species as a whole (from a very simple viewpoint)

Religion is certainly not a prerequisite for a peacful society, but rather a set heirachy is needed. Something with definate leaders and ranks. Not only does this give people a sense of belonging to a larger community, but it means there is a system for identification and easy prosecution for crimes.
Humans are immensely social creatures, and as such they need to have an environment into which they fit and can integrate and interact with the other members of said environment. Religion is not, anymore, a requirement for functioning society with the advent of systems like democracy - systems that had all the requirements. At one point religion was there to help explain what could not be explained, but with the introduction of scientific method, and the humanist movement of the rennaissance, the unexplained was becoming increasingly less prevolent. The religions, therefore, began to use thier influence (which is largely traditional, only having many supporters because they were born into this archaic system) to CONTROL the people.

This spelled the rise to power of the religions, and the churches were approaching the peak of thier power. The church had significant influence on state, and if you werent religious you could be tried, burned or excommunicated from your society. We can see with these infringements of basic human and religious values that the church was simply a vehicle for becoming powerful. While this may seem offensive to some people, I believe it to be the truth. That does not, however, mean that the churches do not do good things, nor does it mean that they don't believe, all it means is that this happy mentality of golden churches and pious leaders needs to be reconsidered. Historically speaking, religion itself has never incited people to go to war, but rather it was the leaders of state using religion as a tool to go on crusades and holy wars (examples include the current war on terror, and the extensive crusades during the middle ages.).

In conclusion, I say that religion itself isn't the reason for fighting, but rather leaders who have exploited it.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: slugfly on March 19, 2006, 03:24:26 am
From your description you are good because you are afraid of being punished.

my actions are goverened by an overwhelming sense of self preservation and personal honor... i only follow laws because breaking them wouldn't benefit me much... most of us are capable of terrible things

My sense of morality is defined by pretty much 2 things.  1)  what will or will not hurt others (I've never wished to hurt anything) and 2) what will or will not get me punished (I've definately never wished to be punished)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DarkDragon on March 19, 2006, 06:53:19 am
Well, when I saw this thread I was like what the heck? then I started reading I got the point and I read a bit of the first posts up to like the 6th page and I'm gonna make my point now:

I was educated in an environment where, either in school or by personal research I learned about the different theories and not satisfied with all of them in a whole I decided to formulate my own opinion on a theory which could satisfy and use the best of all theories and this one believe it or not is more plausible than any of the theories alone since it allows for science to cooperate with religion, I'm not gonna write an essay about it I was just making my point, I don't think this game will change anyone's way of thinking, ina  certain way it is similar to my theory by letting the player play god but allowing evolution, etc at the same time.

And after all, it is just a game. If people of a certain religion don't like it all they have to do is not play it and not letting their children play it (which I think it's wrong since children should make their own judgement and not follow their parents' one).

That's it, thanks for reading through my boring post :P
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 19, 2006, 06:56:18 am
wow somone actually made a post that was on topic *dies frrom the shock*
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Bios Revision on March 19, 2006, 08:06:45 am
Quote
Haven't you ever gotten scared at night wondering what it would be like if all of a sudden you died and your thoughts and emotions would just dissapear...

It wouldn't feel like anything, obviously.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 19, 2006, 08:33:25 am
Quote
Haven't you ever gotten scared at night wondering what it would be like if all of a sudden you died and your thoughts and emotions would just dissapear...

It wouldn't feel like anything, obviously.

Isn't that what goths think every day?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 19, 2006, 11:58:20 am
Except goths don't beleive in god.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Brutus on March 19, 2006, 12:00:04 pm
yea they do, except they dont worship him, or mabye thats emo, i dunno but every last one of my friends fits into 1 of those catagorys, i dont, i'm great
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 19, 2006, 12:01:11 pm
I thought that was the point... although Goths arent really atheists, they worship depression and bad poetry... and looking like losers. I really dont think there are any attractive goths, even without the overappliance of makeup.

To keep this on topic... uh... if God's so good why do bad things happen? <runs off>
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Brutus on March 19, 2006, 12:02:58 pm
they kinda think the devil is the victim of gods harrasment so they think the devil is more misunderstood than evil. wierdos
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: DemonScythe on March 19, 2006, 12:07:44 pm
Goths don't worship Satan, God or anything, goths are usually very smart, but they have a very negative viewpoint of the world, and turned to depression, I'm a little goth myself, but I'm still pretty social.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 19, 2006, 12:09:32 pm
I read His Dark Materials, (book one good, downhill from there) that was based on paradise lost right?


Goths are not smart, if goths were smart we would occasionally see Goth doctors or Goth theoretical physicists. Goths work in gas stations, at Goth clothes shops, and at record stores.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: gec05 on March 19, 2006, 12:18:55 pm
It's not that they're not smart, they lack motivation to excel due to their pesemistic views. They still have potential. Another key aspect is that they are non-violent, stupid people are violent. Some people assume that they're violent because of their looks. Goths like to scare people with their looks sometimes, not because their violent.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 19, 2006, 12:22:14 pm
goth is a phase many teenagers and young adults go through, so many doctor and teachers  may well have been goths, incidently my anthropology lecturer was a goth apparantly
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 19, 2006, 12:50:33 pm
I obviously didnt make enough distinction between 'intelligent' and 'smart'. Some Goths may be intelligent but in my opinion they arent all that smart. Whats wrong with regular pessimism or cynicism.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Muggerman on March 19, 2006, 01:41:37 pm
holy crap! 45 pages! No way am I gona read through all that.

So much for me making a differnet topic for this discussions, blah.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 19, 2006, 01:49:08 pm
Biblicaly Bad things happen even though there is a god because the human race demanded that god never flood the world again(according to the Bible the world was so evil god flooded it hence the story of Noah's arc) god used to do something about it, but it would usually result in evil places being destroyed as well as the evil people. Eventually the general population were annoyed and said stop it! so he promised he would and made the rainbow to remind us of his promise.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 19, 2006, 02:05:58 pm
and which part of the bible is that in?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 19, 2006, 02:06:57 pm
Its part of the noah story in the old testament.

So water droplets didnt refract light before the flood?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 19, 2006, 02:51:02 pm
WTF is going on in this thread?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 19, 2006, 02:55:42 pm
WTF is going on in this thread?

Its become a breeding ground for half developed theories and half baked ideas.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 19, 2006, 02:58:21 pm
Whoa....I cant believe this thread is still going!

Well, there is no point in argueing against evolution but I feel this thread has moved more toward and attack on christianity and christian intelligence. The problem with this is everyone who has a point against the bible have OBVIOUSLY never read a word of it because what the claim doesnt exist. SO, after much research and praying and reading I have come to put on my debate hat once again to try and set the records straight on christianity.

Point 1: "Christians are doing good deads to appease God."

Truth: That is 100% false. If any Christian is thinking that a good deed is going to get him/her into heaven he/she needs to read the bible as well. The bible states specifically that there is only one way to God the father and that is through Jesus Christ. Do good deads, yes, but do good deads for the good of man not for yourself!

Now for the real meat

Point 2: "The bible says that the earth is flat!"

Truth: Where does the bible say this? Let me quote scripture here: Isaiah 40:22 "It is God who sits above the CIRCLE of the earth." The word circle here is from the hebrew word chuwg which also means “circuit,” or “compass." To me that is indicating something spherical NOT something flat or square. By the way, the book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC thats 300 YEARS before aristotle suggested the earth might be round.

There are so many scientific observations in the bible that didnt come to SCIENCE for hundreds of years or even thousands! If you would like me to discuss those I would be more then willing to. Perferably in a PM but if not I will show all here.

Im drawing a complete blank now...BRAIN FART! Well when I remember what else I had to say I will post again.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 19, 2006, 03:00:48 pm
Someone came to slay the Deadra!  Ah, that was a lame, geeky joke.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 19, 2006, 03:06:41 pm
I think this thread is on the verge of collapsing in on itself
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 19, 2006, 03:08:49 pm
I think this thread is on the verge of collapsing in on itself

I could really make it colapse and get into the end time prophecies ;)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 19, 2006, 03:11:51 pm
I think this thread is on the verge of collapsing in on itself

I could really make it colapse and get into the end time prophecies ;)
no I think it'll be a weird kind of pleasure seeing if this thread'll claw its way back into the realms of the sane
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 19, 2006, 03:12:22 pm
Hurray the threads almost dead!!!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 19, 2006, 03:15:29 pm
I think this thread is on the verge of collapsing in on itself

I could really make it colapse and get into the end time prophecies ;)
no I think it'll be a weird kind of pleasure seeing if this thread'll claw its way back into the realms of the sane

I refuse to state anymore in this thread but if you research it in depth you will see it is quite sane!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: smjjames on March 19, 2006, 03:16:40 pm
or.... just ask a mod to delete the thing...
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 19, 2006, 03:19:51 pm
Actually I've changed my mind KILL IT, KILL IT NOW save us from creationists and things that are off topic please!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 19, 2006, 03:21:50 pm
BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH!  ;D

So I was playing Sims 2 earlyer today...I cheated on my wife....I feel bad.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 19, 2006, 03:23:40 pm
I see.........
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 19, 2006, 03:31:50 pm
Think I should tell her? I wonder how our daughter will take it...i Hope she doesnt leave me!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: GrrrArrgh on March 19, 2006, 10:12:32 pm
How many times has this thing been killed and resurrected now? Seems like at least three or four.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Samog on March 19, 2006, 10:21:10 pm
There's more to killing a thread than saying "This thread is over."
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: tuggles on March 19, 2006, 10:53:13 pm
How many times has this thing been killed and resurrected now? Seems like at least three or four.

Yea this thread really hasnt died yet...been on the front page the entire time Ive seen it.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: slugfly on March 20, 2006, 05:40:19 am
Goth works in mysterious ways.  Although Goth wants us all to be Gothly and do the night thing, we are given free will to choose.  Because at heart, Goth is really insecure and wants to know that Goth is worth loving without telling others to do it.  But, if Goth is really good, how could bad things exist?  Well, the thing is, Goth is neither good or bad, smart or intelligent... or dumb for that matter.  Goth is everything, and just demands of us that we be good.  Goth made eternal suffering for those that transgress... doesn't sound like a very goodly thing to me.  Goth knows the outcome of the entire story, yet chose to make a tempter and chose to make us weak enough (and fractured in beliefs enough) that more than 80% of us will go to this eternal suffering...

Goth made this thread...   For that we praise Goth, for without this thread how could my heavy heart gain respite?  How could I overcome my intense, boiling and bubbling anger at my cat for having chewed through (for the second *****ing time!!!) a set of 50 dollar headphones!!!  Garrrrr  Gothdamnit!!!

Goth has cursed me...  hell with 'im.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 20, 2006, 07:32:42 am
Goth works in mysterious ways.  Although Goth wants us all to be Gothly and do the night thing, we are given free will to choose.  Because at heart, Goth is really insecure and wants to know that Goth is worth loving without telling others to do it.  But, if Goth is really good, how could bad things exist?  Well, the thing is, Goth is neither good or bad, smart or intelligent... or dumb for that matter.  Goth is everything, and just demands of us that we be good.  Goth made eternal suffering for those that transgress... doesn't sound like a very goodly thing to me.  Goth knows the outcome of the entire story, yet chose to make a tempter and chose to make us weak enough (and fractured in beliefs enough) that more than 80% of us will go to this eternal suffering...

Goth made this thread...   For that we praise Goth, for without this thread how could my heavy heart gain respite?  How could I overcome my intense, boiling and bubbling anger at my cat for having chewed through (for the second *****ing time!!!) a set of 50 dollar headphones!!!  Garrrrr  Gothdamnit!!!

Goth has cursed me...  hell with 'im.

okay...What have you been smoking?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 20, 2006, 07:45:16 am
I am sure he was talking about God ;)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 20, 2006, 10:04:56 am
this topic is so insane even I don't know what the hells going on anymore
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Mangerman on March 20, 2006, 12:09:38 pm
I think this discussion is dieing.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Golgrig on March 20, 2006, 06:54:23 pm
for your viewing pleasure:

Quote
The Dead Thread Sketch
The cast:
MR. werechicken
SHOP Mangerman


The sketch:
A poster enters a general forum.
Mr. werechicken : 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
Mr. werechicken : 'Ello, Miss?
Mangerman: What do you mean "miss"?
Mr. werechicken : I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
Mangerman: We're closin' for lunch.
Mr. werechicken : Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this thread what I posted’n not half an hour about this very debate.
Mangerman: Oh yes, the, uh, the Hot topic...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?
Mr. werechicken : I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!
Mangerman: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
Mr. werechicken : Look, matey, I know a dead thread when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Mangerman: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable debate, the hot topic, isn'it, ay? Beautiful flamege!
Mr. werechicken : The flamege don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
Mangerman: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!
Mr. werechicken : All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the web) 'Ello, Mister exciting post! I've got a lovely fresh noob for you if you
post...
(Mangerman hits the thread)
Mangerman: There, he moved!
Mr. werechicken : No, he didn't, that was you hitting the thread!
Mangerman: I never!!
Mr. werechicken : Yes, you did!
Mangerman: I never, never did anything...
Mr. werechicken : (yelling and hitting the cage repeatedly) 'ELLO POST!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!
(Takes thread out of the forum and thumps its directly  in general discussion. Throws it up on the web and watches it plummet into the trash.)
Mr. werechicken : Now that's what I call a dead thread.
Mangerman: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
Mr. werechicken : STUNNED?!?
Mangerman: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Exciting Threads stun easily, major.
Mr. werechicken : Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That thread  is definitely deceased, and when I posted’n it not 'alf an hour
ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk.
Mangerman: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the boards..
Mr. werechicken : PININ' for the BOARDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his second page the moment I gone'n posted?
Mangerman: The Excieting thread prefers been kept on the second page! Remarkable topic, id'nit, squire? Lovely flamege!
Mr. werechicken : Look, I took the liberty of examining that topic when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been sitting on these boards in the
first place was that it had been NAILED there.
(pause)
Mangerman: Well, o'course it was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed that post down, it would have nuzzled up to those noobs, bent 'em apart with its awesomeness, and
VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
Mr. werechicken : "VOOM"?!? Mate, this thread wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised!
Mangerman: No no! 'E's pining!
Mr. werechicken : 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This thread is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e
rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the board 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is discussin  processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the
bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-THREAD!!
(pause)
Mangerman: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter) Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back of the shop, and uh,
we're right out of Excitin threads.
Mr. werechicken : I see. I see, I get the picture.
Mangerman: I got a slug.
(pause)
Mr. werechicken : Pray, does it talk?
Mangerman: Nnnnot really.
Mr. werechicken : WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
Mangerman: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)
Mr. werechicken : Well.
(pause)
Mangerman: (quietly) D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place?
Mr. werechicken : (looks around) Yeah, all right, sure.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 20, 2006, 06:57:03 pm
hmm, to be insulted or amused..........
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 20, 2006, 07:05:20 pm
hmm, to be insulted or amused..........
You could be both, but they cancel eachother out.  So you would be mute I guess.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Vivec on March 20, 2006, 07:38:05 pm
Except for that last part, I though it was funny.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: slugfly on March 20, 2006, 07:38:36 pm
good translation golgrig  :D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: aname on March 20, 2006, 07:49:00 pm
monty python was awsome... i have every episode on dvd and i have life of brian and mpathg. best comedy ever
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: slugfly on March 20, 2006, 07:50:15 pm
life of brian FTW!   :)  Every MP movie I've seen is great, Flying Circus even better  :)  (and absolutely mind bending when under the influence of illicit substances)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 20, 2006, 08:02:39 pm
Woulden't it be cool if you could actually grab a thread beat it up and throw it in the trash. :D
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Golgrig on March 20, 2006, 08:32:57 pm
and now for something completely different.....

How Not To Post
Golgrig: Government Film No. 42: How Not to post
[picture of forum]
Announcer: In this thread, there are 47 people; none of
them have posted. In this film, we hope to show you the value
of not posting. Here is Mr. tugglesof London, SE14. He
Has not yet posted. Now I'm gonna ask him to post. Mr. tuggles,
will you post please?
[toggles posts, gets flamed, and dies]
Announcer: This demonstrates the value of not posting.

The Creationist Song
I'm a creationist  and I'm OK I sleep all night and I pray all day.
Angel Chorus: He's a creationist  and he's OK He sleeps all night and he prays all day.
I put down theories, I eat my lunch I go to the rectory. On Wednesdays I go shopping and have buttered scones for tea
Devotees: He puts down theories, he eats his lunch He go to the rectory. On Wednesdays he go shopping and has buttered scones for tea.
Angel Chorus: He's a creationist  and he's OK He sleeps all night and he prays all day.
I put down theories, I skip and jump I like to impress my followers. I put up false idols and worship many gods for hours.
Devotees: He puts down theories, he skips and jumps He likes to impress his followers. He puts up false idols and worships many gods for hours.?!
Angel Chorus: He's a lumberjack and he's OK He sleeps all night and he works all day.
I put down theories, I swear high ideals Suspension of belief. I wish I'd been a pastor, just like my dear papa!
Devotees: He puts down theories, has high ideals?! Suspension of belief?!
...He's a creationist  and he's OK He sleeps all night and he prays all day.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 20, 2006, 08:35:56 pm
not as funny
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: TotalSandwich on March 20, 2006, 08:37:34 pm
The mangerman eats n00bs?
 :o
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 20, 2006, 08:41:21 pm
wow this pst is better than that day I was with Justine Timberlake
*cuts to Justin Timberlake tied to a chair and me dancing to 'stuck in the middle with you' while holding a cut-throat razor*
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: slugfly on March 20, 2006, 08:44:55 pm
*woot!*  I now celebrate the werechicken!  Think you could manage to get Britney Spears and maybe a few others tied up somewhere too?  maybe advanced to the gasoline stage (and minus the *good*bad-guys who save the day)?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 20, 2006, 08:47:08 pm
it's now on forum games here http://www.gamingsteve.com/blab/index.php?topic=3097.0
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Golgrig on March 20, 2006, 08:51:23 pm
After receiving the following letter from one Mr. Omnipotent G. Deity;

'Hello, my favorite creation;
I wish to register a complaint, the anti-religious persons of this forum have thoroughly trod upon my magnificent creed
                                                                          -sincerly, God’


"We would like to apologize for the way in which religious adherents are represented in this forum. It was never our intention to imply that all believers are weak-minded, philosophical time-wasters who are more concerned with their personal vendettas and private power struggles than the problems of survival, nor to suggest at any point that they sacrifice their credibility by denying free debate on vital matters in the mistaken impression that dogmatic unity comes before the well-being of the people they supposedly represent, nor to imply at any stage that they are squabbling little toadies without an ounce of concern for the vital social problems of today. Nor indeed do we intend that viewers should consider them as crabby ulcerous little self-seeking vermin with furry legs and an excessive addiction to alcohol and certain explicit sexual practices which some people might find offensive. We are sorry if this impression has come across."

This man, he doesn't know when he's beaten! He doesn't know when he's winning, either. He has no… sort of… sensory apparatus…
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 20, 2006, 08:55:08 pm
"We would like to apologize for the way in which religious adherents are represented in this forum. It was never our intention to imply that all believers are weak-minded, philosophical time-wasters who are more concerned with their personal vendettas and private power struggles than the problems of survival, nor to suggest at any point that they sacrifice their credibility by denying free debate on vital matters in the mistaken impression that dogmatic unity comes before the well-being of the people they supposedly represent, nor to imply at any stage that they are squabbling little toadies without an ounce of concern for the vital social problems of today. Nor indeed do we intend that viewers should consider them as crabby ulcerous little self-seeking vermin with furry legs and an excessive addiction to alcohol and certain explicit sexual practices which some people might find offensive. We are sorry if this impression has come across."

I don't care what you say thats EXACTLY how I viiew them
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Golgrig on March 20, 2006, 09:05:56 pm
funny few people actually would recognize that as an apology, It's loaded with insults, it's also pure python genious which i have corrupted to change the target of the insult.

If we increase the size of the average creationist until it is the same height as the evolutionist and then compare the relative brain size, we now find that the creationist's brain is still smaller. But, and this is the point, it is larger than it *was*.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 20, 2006, 09:08:07 pm
and if you compare their IQ's you will notice that a creationist score higher than a BBC producer but slightly less than a penguin
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Vivec on March 20, 2006, 09:09:08 pm
and if you compare their IQ's you will notice that a creationist score higher than a BBC producer but slightly less than a penguin

But it's a good thing you're not insulting them, or anything.

 :P
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 20, 2006, 09:12:53 pm
yes i wouldn't dream of saying that creationists are self-delluding fantasists, who secretly want soceity to fall so they can be in charge again, and would ban anything of any benefit to civilisatio, and throw anyone they don't like on the bonfires for highly spurious reason, all the while indulging in mmore and more curruption, until god reveals that he really does exist and improved the creationist by turning them into ants - that would be wrong
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: SumGI on March 20, 2006, 09:16:22 pm
Having fun with your friends?
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Polymer on March 20, 2006, 09:22:05 pm
The threads actual topic has stopped so can you please stop making fun of people with faith it is really quite annoying.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Golgrig on March 20, 2006, 09:32:04 pm
we're sorry due to technical constraints the practicing of faith is in a highly transitional state please check back later for full coverafe of ongoing jokes/ name calling/ flaming/ annoyances

please leave now and observe "how not to post"
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LadyM on March 21, 2006, 07:15:17 am
Okay I'm stepping in again.. this thread has derailed off topic .. as usual. Please let me point out rule #1 of the forum guidelines:

1. Be respectful of others at all times.
The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting. If someone disagrees with you, remember to respect their right to their own opinion. This works both ways. Don't be forceful or rude when expressing your opinion. Obscene or sexual references will not be tolerated. This forum is family friendly. If you want to talk with a filthy mouth, do it somewhere else.

If this topic is becoming offensive to people, then it will be locked. I really wish the spam and off topic trend would stop. There are plenty of places to post nonsense so that every single thread does not have to end up that way.

If you want to read ALL of the forum guidelines, please click the link in my signature.

Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: slugfly on March 21, 2006, 07:43:38 am
let's try to bring it back on topic from a more positive perspective...   :D

What do you guys think Jesus would most like about Spore if he could play it?  (earn bonus points by backing up your answers with scriptural references.  Hint:  Jesus actual teachings are only found in the first 4 books of the New Testament, Matt, Mark, Luke and John)
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 21, 2006, 08:13:51 am
The threads actual topic has stopped so can you please stop making fun of people with faith it is really quite annoying.
If I said I had faith in the fact that the moon was made of cheese and kept crowing about how NASA and the evil scientits keep lying to us (and the children, please think of the children) I'm sure you would make fun of me.

In other news the Archbishop of Canterbury, the leader of the Anglican Church has announced he is utterly opposed to the teaching of creationism in schools.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,1735857,00.html the relevant bit is towards the end.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: kmr on March 21, 2006, 09:20:35 am
If this topic is becoming offensive to people, then it will be locked.

Oh, please pleasepleaseplease. End the misery, m'Lady of the M!
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: Tantalus on March 21, 2006, 10:14:06 am
If this topic is becoming offensive to people, then it will be locked.

Oh, please pleasepleaseplease. End the misery, m'Lady of the M!

Seconded.
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: werechicken on March 21, 2006, 10:38:09 am
If this topic is becoming offensive to people, then it will be locked.

Oh, please pleasepleaseplease. End the misery, m'Lady of the M!

Seconded.

thirded
Title: Re: Jesus mad... Jesus smash!
Post by: LadyM on March 21, 2006, 10:43:58 am
Topic locked