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Random Encounters => Everything Else => Topic started by: UFO King on May 25, 2009, 11:49:31 am

Title: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: UFO King on May 25, 2009, 11:49:31 am
The 2009 North Korean nuclear test is an alleged underground detonation of a nuclear device conducted on 25 May 2009 North Korea. This would be the second reported North Korean nuclear test, the first test taking place in October 2006. The country also launched three short-range missiles. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_North_Korean_nuclear_test)


Oh dear. It seems everyone is opposed to this, excluding North Korea itself and Iran, which simply states that the test is an internal affair. This is certainly a worrisome affair. I hope no one starts WWIII anytime soon.

What do you think of this whole thing?
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Veraal on May 25, 2009, 12:01:00 pm
I've got exams to worry about, so no, I don't care.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Cow on May 25, 2009, 12:13:47 pm
It is scary, to say the least, especially so considering that my house is dangerously close to one of the biggest targets for nuclear weapons. Or so I'm told.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: martyk on May 25, 2009, 12:15:31 pm
Maybe, you'll think of me.  When you are on your own...

But nah.  Nothing's gonna come of this.  If anything it will make everything safer by furthuring MAD amongst everyone.  Worst case scenario is the US invades on a "Peace Keeping" mission and drags Canada along again, but that is unlikley due to the current war fatigue.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: huggkruka on May 25, 2009, 12:32:21 pm
I can't understand where they got the funds for nukes(they can't be cheap) when they can't even complete a large concrete structure like the Ryugyong Hotel. Dictators must have some sort of weird magic treasure chests somewhere... :-\
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Josasa on May 25, 2009, 12:40:22 pm
I can't understand where they got the funds for nukes(they can't be cheap) when they can't even complete a large concrete structure like the Ryugyong Hotel. Dictators must have some sort of weird magic treasure chests somewhere... :-\

That and fear.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: martyk on May 25, 2009, 12:42:14 pm
[Conspiricy Theory]Its obvious the American government is funding their nuclear programe though shady backroom politics in order to build up a general fear of North Korea, start another Cold War and eventually validate an invasion of the country.  IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW![\Conspiricy Theory]

But seriously, while it's probably not the US, I would not be suprised if they're getting funding from some other country.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Inkling on May 25, 2009, 01:16:58 pm
Wait, your worst case scenario is that Canada gets brought along on a "Peace Keeping" mission?  That's almost adorable.  North Korea will probably, probably only use their nuclear program to blackmail the West for more aid.  But when we have the most isolationist dictatorship in the world with nuclear weapons, nuclear armed Pakistan in near chaos, Iran still pursuing a nuclear program, and the security status of weapons in Russia and the former Soviet bloc being anyone's guess, I think you've got a pretty mild worse case scenario.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: martyk on May 25, 2009, 01:22:14 pm
I'm just saying, the more nukes there are out there, the safer everyone is.  Mutually Agreed Destruction yo!
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Celdur on May 25, 2009, 01:22:41 pm
nukes are basicly just radioactive penises anyway...they just compare the size and who got the biggest one gets to say what happens

they dont actualy want to fire the things id imagine
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Inkling on May 25, 2009, 01:25:33 pm
Martyk and Celdur, those scenarios work when the armed countries are roughly equals or the weapons are in the hands of sane leaders.  Potentially with North Korea or if weapons from Pakistan or Russia end up with terrorists, MAD goes right out the window.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: martyk on May 25, 2009, 01:39:20 pm
I'm gonna fall out of this debate now.  I've already gotten close to sayign some things I know I"m gonna regret later and I know if I continue I no doubt will say something I shouldn't.

Peace easy G-dawgs!
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Daxx on May 25, 2009, 01:44:03 pm
I think I'm going to wait until this thread gets onto the inevitable comparisons to the USA and other western countries, and their nuclear stockpiles, use thereof and political stance thereon.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Huckbuck on May 25, 2009, 01:49:44 pm
The scarriest country in the world, US of A, got loads of nukes. The US is the only country who has ever used nukes in war as well :P
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: huggkruka on May 25, 2009, 01:51:14 pm
Not even I could argue that the US is nearly as dangerous as Pakistan or North Korea with nukes. I'm not sure about Iran, since it used to be a civilized country like a generation ago. I still have hope for them.

Trivia: There were some people who argued that Sweden should get a nuke to keep the Soviets out.


Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Nice one Huck.  :P
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Andrew Ryan on May 25, 2009, 02:14:50 pm
I can't understand where they got the funds for nukes(they can't be cheap) when they can't even complete a large concrete structure like the Ryugyong Hotel. Dictators must have some sort of weird magic treasure chests somewhere... :-\

Three words: Drugs and Terrorism.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: UFO King on May 25, 2009, 02:36:24 pm
Actually, the Ayatollah of Iran stated that nuclear weapons are a violation of the Koran. So no, I don't think Iran is pursuing nukes.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on May 25, 2009, 02:45:37 pm
Actually, the Ayatollah of Iran stated that nuclear weapons are a violation of the Koran. So no, I don't think Iran is pursuing nukes.

Yeah Iranian Ayatollahs are pinnacles of peace and understanding. ::)

Of course... the timing of this to land on the US Memorial Day is also a test against the new US Administration.

-Lego
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Cow on May 25, 2009, 03:07:45 pm
Actually, the Ayatollah of Iran stated that nuclear weapons are a violation of the Koran. So no, I don't think Iran is pursuing nukes.

Yeah Iranian Ayatollahs are pinnacles of peace and understanding. ::)

Of course... the timing of this to land on the US Memorial Day is also a test against the new US Administration.

-Lego


Plus, they can't pretend to care about what's in the Koran.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Doomsday on May 25, 2009, 03:38:37 pm
Actually, the Ayatollah of Iran stated that nuclear weapons are a violation of the Koran. So no, I don't think Iran is pursuing nukes.

Yeah Iranian Ayatollahs are pinnacles of peace and understanding. ::)

Of course... the timing of this to land on the US Memorial Day is also a test against the new US Administration.

-Lego


The Ayatollah may have the true power and support in Iran, but President Crazy-Pants Ahmadinejad isn't helping issues much. Sure the Ayatollah can say that they aren't pursuing weapons, but that doesn't mean they aren't and hell... the threat of developing nuclear weapons is enough to get negotations and face time with major world leaders. Only crazy despots openly admits to pursuing nuclear weapons. Iran may or may not be developing weapons, but they aren't going to openly admit it in a way that's gonna cause a bigger stir (and more focus on them) then needed. Hell, Iranians don't really have anything against the west really (save for the whack job President and his far "right-wing" supporters), and if it weren't for Bush calling them a member of the Axis of Evil and you know surrounding them with two highly unstable wars in a gross abuse of our status and power (well and that whole Iran-Contra mess before that), then I'd imagine that we'd be able to be fairly civil towards each other. Maybe even allies. Iran would be a hell of a better ally than Saudi Arabia... we're just friends with them because they're rich, other than that that country is a mess. Iran is, at least for the most part, stable.

Edit:

nukes are basicly just radioactive penises anyway...they just compare the size and who got the biggest one gets to say what happens

they dont actualy want to fire the things id imagine

Only half true. No one wants to use them but they want the option to use them if they have to. Other than that size and power don't matter all that much. I mean Russia had a Nuke that could decimate anything with in almost 5km of the blast, that's not including the fallout and other affects. Then there are the non-nuclear powerhouse bombs, like the FOAB (Father of all Bombs, a "Vacuum" Bomb) which is at least 2 times stronger than the MOAB (Mother of all Bombs, a conventional warhead) but may be as much as 4 times more powerful. Either way, they're not something people want to use but they want the option to use it. It's a giant bargaining chip, usually.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Inkling on May 25, 2009, 03:39:27 pm
Hey, Huckbuck.

(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/Not_Inkling/uncle-sam.jpg)
BOO!
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Doomsday on May 25, 2009, 04:01:40 pm
Opps.. I wanted to post this in my previous post but forgot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfoQsZa8F1c
- 50 megaton Tsar Bomb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7UPU8nP_p0
- FOAB "Vacuum" Bomb test
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: PatMan33 on May 25, 2009, 05:11:55 pm
As long as China, Russia, and the United Stares are of the (relatively) same opinion, I feel a bit more comfortable.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: eropS on May 25, 2009, 05:21:35 pm
its Qur'an...not Koran.... Qur'an...
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: PatMan33 on May 25, 2009, 05:24:10 pm
its Qur'an...not Koran.... Qur'an...

 :(

Both are acceptable. You may now die.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Krakow Sam on May 25, 2009, 05:49:47 pm
You know, a lot of this so called tension is caused by people lacking empathy and failing to acknowledge that people are basically people regardless of where they live.

Several posters have mentioned that they don't feel comfortable with nukes in the hands of countries without 'sane leaders', obviously referring to the various dictatorships. But consider that the leadership of those countries probably consider the leadership of western countries to be insane or worse.

I think what we all hope is that the leaders of the western countries in which we live are basically of the opinion that using their nukes would be a horrific act that they should never have to stoop to, but equally seem sure that their enemies (Russians, Chinese, Iranians, Koreans, whatever) will use them at much less provocation.
All I'm saying is what if the leaders of these 'bad' countries have the same thought process.
"We peaceful North Koreans would never use a nuclear bomb without the gravest provocation, but those power mad Americans would probably fire their missiles at the drop of a hat, we'd better get some nukes just to warn them off"
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Raz on May 25, 2009, 05:55:00 pm
Look at it from this point, they might get a single city, we could obliterate and make inhabitable practically any country many times over. And that's if their missile didn't fail, or get shot down. Even if it did, we'd probably still obliterate them, and not fail at it because our technology is more advanced.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Cow on May 25, 2009, 06:17:57 pm
We might even have enough nukes to make South Korea an island. It would be a great stimulus for the map making industry. /sarcasm
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Raz on May 25, 2009, 06:21:18 pm
I'm speaking based on statistical terms, that however many they could kill, we could still kill far more of them...
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Little on May 25, 2009, 06:31:40 pm
Actually, you're wrong on that point. Reports show North Korea has up to ten nukes, and with South Korea so close...

They could get 40,000,000 South Koreans, and we could only kill 23,000,000 of them.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Krakow Sam on May 25, 2009, 06:32:54 pm
Look at it from this point, they might get a single city, we could obliterate and make inhabitable practically any country many times over. And that's if their missile didn't fail, or get shot down. Even if it did, we'd probably still obliterate them, and not fail at it because our technology is more advanced.

People like you are why these countries are paranoid about America having nuclear weapons at all.  :P
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Raz on May 25, 2009, 06:49:33 pm
I don't agree with the philosophy, but it's true. I also doubt they want to target South Koreans. North Korea's nukes are possibly not even Hiroshima/Nagasaki-scale in their ability to devastate. Reports also said Iraq had WMDs, funny how they didn't.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on May 25, 2009, 07:03:31 pm
Look at it from this point, they might get a single city, we could obliterate and make inhabitable practically any country many times over. And that's if their missile didn't fail, or get shot down. Even if it did, we'd probably still obliterate them, and not fail at it because our technology is more advanced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

No, a single nuke could cripple the electronics of a very large area, it is called EMP. The weapon is detonated in the upper atmosphere and there is little to no radiation and no blast damage. However, every electronic device in a certain radius (depending on weapon yield and altitude). While North Korea seems to lack the ability to hit the US at this point, Japan and China are both in range of a major EMP strike. What happens to the world economies when half the electronic components suddenly become unavailable because all the equipment used to build them is fried? That is just a single damage aspect. The area effected will be basically reduced to the 19th century in the blink of an eye.

Now eventually those areas will recover, but at what rate? Look at New Orleans.That was a hurricane, and the damages were localized. In an EMP blast the majority of all infrastructure will be off the air.
Hospitals will not have any equipment (when was the last time you saw a non-electric thermometer at a hospital?)
Police will have little to no communications gear, not that they can get anywhere with their cars fried.
No water, most cities use electric pumps.
No phones, fried.
No satellite comminucations (those dishes will focus the emp on the transducer)
How do you communicate with a nation when it is all technology based on microchips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRLON3ddZIw

-Lego
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Doomsday on May 25, 2009, 08:11:47 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frAEmhqdLFs

This song is more apt to this conversation I think, well.. just as apt.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Inkling on May 25, 2009, 08:37:45 pm
I like this guy.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: eropS on May 25, 2009, 08:43:30 pm
I like you.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Bona Fide Supraman on May 26, 2009, 05:54:59 am
It's interesting to see that China are against it. That should help...

Though tbh, if they do get Nukes, do you seriously think they'd be stupid enough to use them? They'd be completely raped within about 2 minutes.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Inkling on May 26, 2009, 06:00:12 am
I would hope not, but then again they think it's a good idea to develop them when every single other country tells them not to.  I'm more worried about these countries not having the proper security for nuclear weapons than launching the nukes themselves.

In other news, North Korea conducted two more missile tests.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/26/nkorea.test/index.html
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Cow on May 26, 2009, 07:40:58 am
I find it interesting that when everybody else says "Don't build those nukes, you guys.", the North Korean government hears, "We'll nuke ya if you don't! Woogie boogie!"
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: madis on May 26, 2009, 01:18:44 pm
Lego, stop giving them ideas!

But still, if you dont have nukes, then you can be invaded without fear of mutually assured destruction.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on May 26, 2009, 03:54:13 pm
Lego, stop giving them ideas!

(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4558/darkangellsi.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Angel_(TV_series)

...On June 1, 2009, months after Max's escape, terrorists detonate an electromagnetic pulse weapon in the atmosphere over the U.S., which destroys the vast majority of computer and communication systems, throwing the country into utter chaos.

queue the spooky music Mr. Cameron.

-Lego
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Andrew Ryan on May 26, 2009, 04:12:33 pm
Well, we still got five days left...
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Cow on May 27, 2009, 11:58:47 am
Quick, everyone build lead boxes and Faraday cages around your electronics!
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: PatMan33 on May 27, 2009, 12:22:33 pm
There's a fascinating discussion on C-SPAN right now about the Six-Party Talks and the recent nuclear test.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Andrew Ryan on May 27, 2009, 03:07:53 pm
Did any of you here about the new threats North Korea is issuing about it's sanctions? Apparently if South Korea checks just one North Korean ship, it's going to be World War III.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Inkling on May 27, 2009, 03:14:02 pm
By check do you mean inspect the ship or stop the ship?  Also, North Korean leadership might be prone to hyperbole.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Plank of Wood on May 27, 2009, 03:25:35 pm
Quote
Here be Swearing  ****ing bastard foriegn countries bastarding making nukes ****ing for the sake of it and bloody ****ing Geo****ing political issues ****ing going to kill us all I just want to live ****ing not in a bloody ****ing fallout shelter on ****ing Cambridge-on-sea thanks to ****ing bloody World War 3 and bloody global warming mother****ing.

My views.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on May 27, 2009, 03:39:31 pm
From CNN

North Korea warned Wednesday that any attempt to stop, board or inspect its ships would constitute a "grave violation."

The regime also said it could no longer promise the safety of U.S. and South Korean warships and civilian vessels in the waters near the Korea's western maritime border.

"They should bear in mind that the (North) has tremendous military muscle and its own method of strike able to conquer any targets in its vicinity at one stroke or hit the U.S. on the raw, if necessary," the army said in a statement carried by state media.


Clinton (SecState) is reminding the world that the US will defend Japan and South Korea if shots are fired...

Now the world sits and waits to see what China does.

-Lego


Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Raz on May 27, 2009, 05:11:05 pm
China should just gobble North Korea up... It's useless land, but they would be liberating the oppressed and brain-washed peoples there.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Gungnir on May 27, 2009, 07:10:02 pm
I propose giant bulldozers. To bulldozer north korea into space. For serial.

Then we can nuke them.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: SBD on May 27, 2009, 07:57:49 pm
I propose giant bulldozers. To bulldozer north korea into space. For serial.

Then we can nuke them.

Or we could, you know, try and unify Korea.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Inkling on May 27, 2009, 08:52:34 pm
I think (I hope) that the last announcement from North Korea is just sword rattling.  But when that sword is a nuke, rattling it can lead to very bad things.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Doomsday on May 27, 2009, 09:10:27 pm
Who knows? Maybe Kim Jon-Il died (he has been very ill), and his successor is trying to portray a strong North Korea when perhaps it is in a moment of weakness. I'm just making stuff up, but who knows what's going on with a government like that, that is run by a madman. Maybe they're pissed because they aren't getting the humanitarian aide they wanted from holding 2 Journalists, so they threaten nuclear activity in a stupid attempt for the attention they need. Their leader doesn't seem to be very smart, well in the geo-politic sense. If you want help you don't threaten war with your neighbors or the US.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Josasa on May 27, 2009, 09:32:00 pm
There were actually several articles a while back proposing that Kimmy did actually die and that one of his look alikes took power. Somehow they were able to get a picture and the man was actually several inches shorter (although who can really tell when he wears those weird platform shoes) and that he had missed several large rallies after being sick for some time. This was a while back, mind you, and even if he has passed away it appears that another psycho has taken the reigns.

I just find it interesting how the majority of Europeans look at the U.S. with disdain because of our nuclear weapons. My U.S. history teacher actually pointed that out, stating that it was after the Cuban Missile Crisis that the rest of the world realized that the U.S. would sacrifice Europe in order to save itself. So this does seem to be true from the opinions mentioned here.

The strange thing though, is that France and the United Kingdom both have nuclear weapons, although they are of a smaller 'role' (no offense meant here) in world politics.

I almost think that Iran keeps talking about nukes to get Israel heated up to the point that they will commit a first-strike (as they have done numerous times on numerous occasions. The most recent being on Syrian installations in both Dec and Nov of 2007). It's almost a brilliant scheme as they attempt to make Israel look like the bad guy while possibly gaining support from nations worldwide where they wouldn't have before.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on May 27, 2009, 09:59:20 pm
In response to the comments above, there was something in the 60s called MLF - MultiLateral Force where nuclear armed warships (nukes supplied by the US to other nations) would be operated by NATO crews thereby spreading the 'power' to Europe to respond to a nuclear attack. There were tons of issues that never were resolved, one of the biggest being that NATO wanted US submarines but basically were not able to afford, build, or maintain them. The explanation was the surface ships would be good enough. The only thing that really ever came out of it was another funny song by Tom Lerher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB7PRY1Aqds

The biggest problemwith Korea's saber rattling is that they basically have nothing to lose.The country cannot survive on its own. China is a huge supplier of aid (although theft from railcars bringing food aid to Korea from China has been a huge issue lately) and resells crude oil at 'friendly prices'. Japan and South Korea also shovel food to NK. Basically North Korea is extorting resources from other nations and we continue to pay because food is cheaper than body bags.

I think all the major powers want to see a reunited Korea, but there is the Cold War spectre of 'which side will take control?'.

You also need to rememeber that this is still a warzone. Yeah, its been faily quiet for over 50 years, but the war still exists. If NK starts firing artillery, that will be 300,000 rounds an hour raining down on South Korea. That capacity has been there for many years. Nukes however allow for, what was a 'contained event' to finally breach its borders internationally. Even China needs to fear this issue now. A single nuclear weapon cracking the Three Gorges Dam could kill millions.


-Lego

Sorry but I have to laugh that the 50s and 60s are basically happening again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTKn1aSOyOs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pklr0UD9eSo




Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Huckbuck on May 27, 2009, 11:45:05 pm
I don't think there will be a World War 3 unless Someone joins up with North Korea. If they stand alone then they will get wiped out pretty quickly, and I assume they know this so I doubt they would be to aggressive without a strong alliance.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Plank of Wood on May 28, 2009, 04:43:36 am
I'm assuming that the moment that nukes are sent over Russia they'll be shot down, send them to the US and the uber-lazor system which they apparently have will shoot them down. So that Leaves Japan, China and South Korea at risk.

I personally think the "Leave them the hell alone" tactic may work. Followed by the "They've used most of their nukes in the test! Now investigate their arses!" strategem.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Doomsday on May 28, 2009, 06:01:25 am
I'm assuming that the moment that nukes are sent over Russia they'll be shot down, send them to the US and the uber-lazor system which they apparently have will shoot them down. So that Leaves Japan, China and South Korea at risk.

If relations weren't so strained with Russia, despite improvements since the elections, the US would probably seek to install it's anti-missile system in allied nations, such as Japan, South Korea and the Philippines. Russia's resurgence as a belligerent political bully, the US's hurt credibility from the last administration, the strain on our armed forces from fighting 2 sustained wars, and aiding in several other smaller wars has really tied our hands though. All we have left is sanctions, embargoes, and hoping our allies and China will step up and do something about it.

Oh, and North Korea would be beyond stupid if they attacked China. China is about the only ally they have.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Cow on May 28, 2009, 08:15:07 am
Kind of. I'm beginning to get the impression that China doesn't like them too well anymore, either.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: martyk on May 28, 2009, 08:19:23 am
I don't think there will be a World War 3 unless Someone joins up with North Korea. If they stand alone then they will get wiped out pretty quickly, and I assume they know this so I doubt they would be to aggressive without a strong alliance.

The thing is, who would stand with them?  In the event of a world war, you'd have the US, Canada, all of Europe, maybe Austraillia, Japan, and probably some others bearing down on them. 
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Haseri on May 28, 2009, 09:24:20 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxrWz9XVvls

A thread about nuclear war and Dr. Strangelove has not been mentioned...
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on May 28, 2009, 09:44:31 am

The thing is, who would stand with them?  In the event of a world war, you'd have the US, Canada, all of Europe, maybe Austraillia, Japan, and probably some others bearing down on them. 

Until what? We push their army and refugees all the way to China? Then what happens?

Those that fail to study history are doomed to repeat the course.

-Lego
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: martyk on May 28, 2009, 09:54:29 am
I'm just saying, if they acted as the agressors, they would not have any support.  We'd stomp in, overthow the government and pull a post-WW2 Germany, except with less division maybe.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: PatMan33 on May 28, 2009, 10:32:59 am
We'd stomp in, overthow the government and pull a post-WW2 Germany, except with less division maybe.

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1341/docbrownturn.png)

Marty!!

So... you want to repeat the Korean War almost to the letter and now you also want to repeat the post-WWII occupation of Germany (because that just worked so well)? I thought we were trying to learn from past mistakes! :P
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Josasa on May 28, 2009, 01:15:54 pm
If there would be another reoccupation, the best course would be to have the South Koreans handling it, seeing as they are both a productive nation and they have close ties (duh) with the North Korean people (that sounds so stupid, but I might as well put it). If that were the case, there would probably be less of a need for military units and more general funding to get the north up to date technologically. The only thing in history we should be trying to repeat is the unification of north and south, German style!
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on May 28, 2009, 02:38:03 pm
The only thing in history we should be trying to repeat is the unification of north and south, German style!

I don't know man, the Dakotas and the Carolinas are still not budging and there are also those Virginian hold-outs as well.

-Lego
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Andrew Ryan on May 28, 2009, 02:54:35 pm
I think the best way to handle NK when they get overthrown by use would be to unite both Korea's together into one giant Korea. That way we could oversee the entire nation and please both sides at the same time.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Plank of Wood on May 28, 2009, 03:05:13 pm
I think the best way to handle NK when they get overthrown by use would be to unite both Korea's together into one giant Korea. That way we could oversee the entire nation and please both sides at the same time.

*Steriotypical Korean Accent* Noh! We cannot allow these Western Capitalist Pigdogs to unite us with their Fellow Western Asian Capitalist Pigdogs! All hail Communism, as everyone knows Karl Marx was from Signapore!
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Daxx on May 28, 2009, 03:07:18 pm
I think the best way to handle NK when they get overthrown by use would be to unite both Korea's together into one giant Korea. That way we could oversee the entire nation and please both sides at the same time.

Please, please tell me that was sarcasm.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Bona Fide Supraman on May 28, 2009, 03:59:34 pm
China should just gobble North Korea up... It's useless land, but they would be liberating the oppressed and brain-washed peoples there.

Yeh, because China is renowned for its freedom and lack of brain-washing
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Saganmaineiac on May 28, 2009, 05:11:07 pm
Here's my stand on the issue:
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9288/thesillykims.jpg)
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Inkling on May 28, 2009, 09:26:37 pm
..........right.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Ultimatum on May 29, 2009, 06:26:23 am
 ???
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Andrew Ryan on May 29, 2009, 07:13:10 am
Here's my stand on the issue:
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9288/thesillykims.jpg)

Wow... That isn't at all racist and it still doesn't deal with the fact that they were all despots.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Gorman Conall on May 29, 2009, 07:33:40 am
While not clever nor amusing its not racist...
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Saganmaineiac on May 29, 2009, 12:15:33 pm
yeah. much better than Cloud dog 9's.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Plank of Wood on May 29, 2009, 01:45:11 pm
HIGNFY talked about this in their lastshow.

The bit about kidnapping was brilliant, and he probably does sing "I'm so Wonry"  ;D
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Doomsday on May 29, 2009, 07:22:25 pm

The thing is, who would stand with them?  In the event of a world war, you'd have the US, Canada, all of Europe, maybe Austraillia, Japan, and probably some others bearing down on them. 
Until what? We push their army and refugees all the way to China? Then what happens?

Those that fail to study history are doomed to repeat the course.

History? Hell, just looking at the news today concerning Afghanistan and Pakistan tells you what that will lead to.

I know I'm arguing semantics on an old quote, but... still... I wish there was some way to undo these past eight years... I wish I could go back and.. I dunno... do something drastic to Bush and Cheney, like waterboard them. >.>
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on May 30, 2009, 10:27:23 am

The thing is, who would stand with them?  In the event of a world war, you'd have the US, Canada, all of Europe, maybe Austraillia, Japan, and probably some others bearing down on them. 
Until what? We push their army and refugees all the way to China? Then what happens?

Those that fail to study history are doomed to repeat the course.

History? Hell, just looking at the news today concerning Afghanistan and Pakistan tells you what that will lead to.

I know I'm arguing semantics on an old quote, but... still... I wish there was some way to undo these past eight years... I wish I could go back and.. I dunno... do something drastic to Bush and Cheney, like waterboard them. >.>

All you would need to do is stop four airliners from taking off.

-Lego
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Plank of Wood on May 30, 2009, 10:34:22 am
Well three actually, one hi-jacking failed and crash landed.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Josasa on May 30, 2009, 10:35:26 am
But that 'attempt' at terrorism would probably push several of the same things into action.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Plank of Wood on May 30, 2009, 10:37:24 am
Then again, you'd also need to stop a few tube trains some 4 years later for that plan to come to full effect.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on May 31, 2009, 04:20:37 pm
Then again, you'd also need to stop a few tube trains some 4 years later for that plan to come to full effect.

We are straying from the topic of North Korea, but in response to that, I doubt the train attacks would have been enough to push the US along the course it took after 9/11. To be blunt, it wouldn't have hit close enough to home, and I don't believe that European governments have enough, fortitude, to engage in a similar response to what the US lead.

Anyhow, North Korea is moving another long range missile to its test launch pad. It has demonstrated the ability do produce a 10kt device. We have the potential now to be watching them assemble a weapon and hit a nearby neighbor, with the statements that back it to the point where one has to seriously consider if this will be an armed missile or not. That should make for an interesting week.

-Lego
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Bona Fide Supraman on May 31, 2009, 04:26:15 pm
Ok, whilst atm I regularly watch the news, I only started fairly recently (as in, the last couple of years.) Some of this stuff can get kinda scary, what with the conflict with Korea, Russia, and a bit of a dispute with Iran all kicking off at the same time. I was just wondering if any of the elder forumites could let me know whether this sorta thing happens a lot over the years, or whether we may be looking at the beginnings of WWIII?
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Cow on May 31, 2009, 05:25:27 pm
My dad has been alive for a long while, and he said that crap like this hasn't really gotten so close to happening since the Cuban Missile
Crisis, but for now we don't have to worry because North Korea only has the capacity to attack South Korea, China, Russia, and Japan.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: pie on May 31, 2009, 05:39:22 pm
And Alaska.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on May 31, 2009, 07:30:42 pm
Ok, whilst atm I regularly watch the news, I only started fairly recently (as in, the last couple of years.) Some of this stuff can get kinda scary, what with the conflict with Korea, Russia, and a bit of a dispute with Iran all kicking off at the same time. I was just wondering if any of the elder forumites could let me know whether this sorta thing happens a lot over the years, or whether we may be looking at the beginnings of WWIII?

As mentioned already, Cuba was the last major issue that people tie to this kind of thing.

I remember people freaking out in the Reagan years, all the talk was about nuclear war with the Soviets and how in 30 minutes everything would be gone, but it never really was as serious as it is today.

However, most world events were border wars, the weapons were mostly conventional, and nobody had huge standing armies just waiting to beat the crap out of each other. Where the fighting was happening was more or less off the beaten path and nobody F---ed with the US or the Soviets directly and walked away without a black eye. There weren't really any 'rogue nastions'. You were either on one side or the other (or of little to no strategic value). The global economy was still somewhat in its infancy as well.

Today we have a nation that is basically using its military might as a protection racket to keep itself alive. It was a sound business solution to do this as the extortion money was far cheaper that going to war again. If you tally the cost of a nuclear exchange however, even a small one where 2-10 warheads are detonated by both sides, and the damage, cost, and suffering becomes a worldwide issue rather than a local issue, you have to re-evaluate the cost of doing business.

(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/7467/nodongrange.jpg)

This is a rough diagram of the CURRENT range of North Korean deployed missiles. If you look, you will notice a lot of major economic targets are already in range.

Even if a nuclear warhead is not fired, what a test it would be if the North Koreans started to act like the Palestinians and fired a single rocket at random every couple days. Do you wait until someone is killed before you fire back, knowing that thousands will die in hours from a conventional exchange? Do you tolerate it as it is 'safer' to take random fire than to engage in all out warfare? What would be the effect on the world markets with the threat of major electronics and shipping centers suddenly getting threatened? We are no longer dealing with some po-dunk little back country that is out of the way. We have two major standing military forces. Millions of artillery shells, thousands of tanks, hundreds of missiles and combat aircraft, and a majority of modern technology, infrrstructure, and manufactoring all in range.

It is a very ugly picture.

-Lego

Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Doomsday on May 31, 2009, 08:27:58 pm
Never mind that Japan doesn't have much of an Army to speak of, I mean they have the Defense Forces and their are a ton of US Bases there as well, then you have the South Korean Army (and the US troops stationed there) as well as China's Army (which is more numbers based than efficiency, for now at least...). North Korea is playing a dangerous game really. If they aren't able to reliably strike or threaten to strike all these major targets at once, they are asking for a full scale retaliation of some of the "strongest" military forces in the world, even if US Forces and funding is spread thin.

If the US moved to put some of it's anti-missile systems into the region, I doubt Russia would like it much. And that might drive Russia further away from the International community, and once again put it into a hostile position with the US. There are so many ways this could play out but, except for the time table, this is playing out fairly similar to how I thought it would way back in 2001/2002 (and again when we invaded Iraq in 2003). Destabilizing one region, as well as stretching one's resources to the point of being considered "weak", often leads to global consequences.

North Korea, for all it's propaganda and bravado, probably perceives this chaotic time as an opportunity. You have the US's international standing in the toilet, the US's resources (physical and financial) spread across the globe, US-Russia relations have gone cold, the global economy is in pieces, and so on. You have all those things working in North Korea's favor. They want to force our hand in some way which, depending on how we responded, could get Russia to side with them as they have in the past. Still, it's just as likely it's a giant extortion racket. In which case it's just a matter of which side breaks first, then... BOOM!
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on June 02, 2009, 05:52:33 am
I doubt Russia would squak too much if a missile defense system was set-up in Japan. Russia depends on Japan for technology and money, so they would have an interest in protecting them as well.

-Lego
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: PatMan33 on June 02, 2009, 06:20:08 am
Maybe we can vilify North Korea to the extreme and use it to finally be friends with everyone!
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Plank of Wood on June 02, 2009, 12:08:04 pm
Have no Fear! I has tested this scenario on GPS 2009 and all that will happen is that South Korea will invade and the resulting war between East and West will last for 3 years!

Oh yeah, and Greece take over Syria.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Haseri on June 02, 2009, 12:10:47 pm
At least the Syrians have something to look forward to.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on June 02, 2009, 06:48:11 pm
At least the Syrians have something to look forward to.

What? Goat Cheese?

-Lego
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Andrew Ryan on June 02, 2009, 09:12:57 pm
Don't they believe in an Islamic version of the Apocalypse?
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: huggkruka on June 03, 2009, 04:36:35 am
According to the Hamas charter, which is based on Koran texts, the apocalypse will come when "Arabs are fighting Jews". The Jews will hide behind trees and rocks, but the trees and rocks will shout "there's a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!". Except one of the trees which is a Jew tree. I am not even kidding.

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Snork on June 03, 2009, 06:36:15 am
What.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Inkling on June 03, 2009, 08:06:57 am
When I get a house and do the landscaping, I am so planting some Jew Trees.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Krakow Sam on June 03, 2009, 08:20:48 am
Its spelled with a Y, not a J.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Cow on June 04, 2009, 10:57:33 am
Borat would be afraid of your yard if you planted Jew trees. They can't fit in a well, you know.

P.S. By the way, what is this GPS 2009? It sounds interesting.

P.P.S. I'll assume it has nothing to do with Global Positioning Systems.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Plank of Wood on June 04, 2009, 11:33:48 am
Borat would be afraid of your yard if you planted Jew trees. They can't fit in a well, you know.

P.S. By the way, what is this GPS 2009? It sounds interesting.

P.P.S. I'll assume it has nothing to do with Global Positioning Systems.


Commander in Chief: Geo-Political Simulator 2009. It's pretty awesome and basicly encompasses EVERYTHING about ruling a country, education, health, work syndicates, annoying superstars, secret services, terrorism, stock exchange, sales contracts and good old fasioned Oil Wars.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Cow on June 04, 2009, 11:38:55 am
Sounds cool.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Plank of Wood on June 04, 2009, 11:39:25 am
It has a picture of Obama on the box, you can't miss it.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Bona Fide Supraman on June 04, 2009, 12:44:58 pm
Wow that game sounds quality.

Is it any good?
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Plank of Wood on June 04, 2009, 01:29:22 pm
Yep, it's an indie game and not very demanding computer wise. I was going to make a metagame about it but I decided it's just too complex.


Also any game which you can create a situation in which Belguim invades Columbia has to be fun.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on June 04, 2009, 04:07:15 pm
Yep, it's an indie game and not very demanding computer wise. I was going to make a metagame about it but I decided it's just too complex.


Also any game which you can create a situation in which Belguim invades Columbia has to be fun.

Belguim waffles and real Maple Syrup is a win-win... Now there is a justification for war. WMDs.. Waffles of Mass Deliciousness!

Bush invades iHop, and unable to find WMDs, orders pancakes instead.

Cheney fails to tip.

-Lego
Title: Kim Jong-il may or may not have pancreatic cancer
Post by: SBD on July 13, 2009, 12:50:23 am
Quote
SEOUL (Reuters) - North Korean leader Kim Jong-il has pancreatic cancer and the illness is life-threatening, South Korean broadcaster YTN said on Monday based on information gathered by Chinese and South Korean intelligence sources.

Kim's health is one of the most closely guarded secrets in the reclusive communist state. Kim, 67, was widely thought to have suffered a stroke last year, but there has never been official confirmation.

Kim looked gaunt during a public appearance last Wednesday at a memorial for his father and state founder Kim Il-sung [ID:nSEO96393]

Kim's health raises questions about succession in Asia's only communist dynasty and who will control its nuclear weapons programs.

The North conducted its second nuclear test on May 25, which was met by U.N. sanctions aimed at cutting off the impoverished state's lucrative arms trade and one of its few sources of hard cash.

South Korean officials have said the North's recent military grandstanding that also included missiles launches and threats to attack the South is linked to efforts to pave the way for Kim's youngest son to take over.

Kim took power in 1994 when his father died at the age of 82. He assumed the title of general secretary of the Workers' Party and chairman of the National Defense Commission, but has never taken the title of president.

Source (http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE56B24920090713)
Title: Re: Kim Jong-il may or may not have pancreatic cancer
Post by: Little on July 13, 2009, 01:07:13 am
I hope he dies and the North Korean people finally get freed from the tyranny.

Yes, I know about the associated problems, but I can't stand these types of governments.
Title: Re: Kim Jong-il may or may not have pancreatic cancer
Post by: SBD on July 13, 2009, 01:09:37 am
He'll just be succeeded by one of his sons/generals/party members.
Title: Re: Kim Jong-il may or may not have pancreatic cancer
Post by: Gunner on July 13, 2009, 08:38:29 am
He'll just be succeeded by one of his sons/generals/party members.
Nice avatar. :P
Title: Re: Kim Jong-il may or may not have pancreatic cancer
Post by: gec05 on July 13, 2009, 09:03:42 am
Too bad. Sure he's a horrible and tyrannical dictator. I don't despise him personally, but I despise his choices as a leader.
Title: Re: Kim Jong-il may or may not have pancreatic cancer
Post by: Saganmaineiac on July 13, 2009, 10:47:55 am
Yay! He's dying! No WWIII! ;D
Title: Re: Kim Jong-il may or may not have pancreatic cancer
Post by: Kenobro on July 13, 2009, 10:53:02 am
Oh please, you really think North Korea has any allies?  If North Korea launched a nuke for a purpose other than testing, they would be eliminated.
Title: Re: Kim Jong-il may or may not have pancreatic cancer
Post by: Cow on July 13, 2009, 11:35:28 am
Oh please, you really think North Korea has any allies?  If North Korea launched a nuke for a purpose other than testing, they would be eliminated.

Well, I don't really see nuclear weapons being used in a war like that, even if North Korea starts it off with one. It doesn't take many to put the environment in the toilet, you know.

Oh, and his kids could be even crazier than him, so... yeah.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Legodragonxp on July 13, 2009, 03:02:40 pm
Its funny, my friend at work has a girlfriend from South Korea and she didn't know what the big deal is. These kind of tensions are just part of the way of life for the people that live over there. "Oh look, its gonna rain. The North fired off another rocket. Did I leave the laundry on the line?, What is on TV tonight?..."

Bad news from the North is like hearing someone shot a gun in Detroit, not a big deal. After staring down the barrel of a gun for 60 years I guess they just get used to the echo.

-Lego
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Veraal on July 13, 2009, 04:52:42 pm
North Korea is just a little attention whore.

Just one slap to the face would keep Kim's mouth shut forever.
Title: Re: Kim Jong-il may or may not have pancreatic cancer
Post by: martyk on July 13, 2009, 05:19:11 pm
Oh, and his kids could be even crazier than him, so... yeah.

Especially since the last time he was seen by the public eye was when he was 12 20 years ago or so.  Since then no doubt being trained to be every bit as much of a looney as his father.

Heck, given his father's record, I wouldn't be suprised if he came into power claiming to still be Kim Jong-il after having used his superpowers to become young again.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Cow on July 13, 2009, 07:16:31 pm
Oh, and his kids could be even crazier than him, so... yeah.

Especially since the last time he was seen by the public eye was when he was 12 20 years ago or so.  Since then no doubt being trained to be every bit as much of a looney as his father.

Heck, given his father's record, I wouldn't be suprised if he came into power claiming to still be Kim Jong-il after having used his superpowers to become young again.

Kim Jong-Il's superpower was a working reproductive system? Literal ballsiness? I could go on.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: SBD on July 14, 2009, 12:39:18 am
North Korea is just a little attention whore.

Just one slap to the face would keep Kim's mouth shut forever.

A Carrier Strike Group kind of slap.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Doomsday on July 14, 2009, 06:50:08 am
The problem is... North Korea's Army, as pathetically trained and equipped as they might be (and it's not that bad, being that N. Korea is one step away from a complete Military Dictatorship), out numbers all of the US and South Korean forces in S. Korea by almost 5 to 1 (at best). The US military is stretched far too thin and breaking the Armistice for either side would be highly unwise. The North doesn't really have much to gain out of it either.
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: MetallicDragon on July 14, 2009, 07:01:52 am
North Korea is just a little attention whore.

Just one slap to the face would keep Kim's mouth shut forever.

I just had the image of some soldiers paratrooping onto Kim's house (castle?) and slapping him...
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Dr. Croccer on July 14, 2009, 07:48:15 am
''Kim Jong-il has pancreatic cancer and is extremely ill and bed-ridden''

Kim Jong-il is in the same state as the average North Korean?
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: gec05 on July 14, 2009, 01:51:45 pm
Removed unnecessary posts. Can we keep a relatively dignified discussion here please?
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Kenobro on July 15, 2009, 02:38:41 pm
''Kim Jong-il has pancreatic cancer and is extremely ill and bed-ridden''

Kim Jong-il is in the same state as the average North Korean?
Are you prejudiced, or am I just not reading your post right?
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Andrew Ryan on July 16, 2009, 12:24:47 am
Kenobro, I take it you haven't watched a single documentary on North Korea, considering nearly everyone in the country is starving. 
Title: Re: 2009 North Korean Nuclear Test
Post by: Cow on July 16, 2009, 11:32:08 am
Yep. I've heard that it's not uncommon for the average North Korean having to eat bark and grass to survive.