Poll

Which are you?

I am an evolutionist (umbrella term)
205 (68.3%)
I am a creationist (umbrella term)
35 (11.7%)
other (both?  none?)
60 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 295

Author Topic: Evolution yes/no  (Read 504331 times)

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Offline DarkAngel

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1200 on: February 05, 2008, 08:02:40 pm »
Evolution is not simply the idea of genes being passed on and sometimes those genes are mutations.
"Evolution is a change in the inherited traits of a population from one generation to the next."

Evolution is the idea that if one these mutations gives the organism an advantage, its chances of surviving and reproducing increases ... the species becomes more and more separate.
That's Natural selection, and it's a phenomenon that arises from the existence of evolution.
Anyway, Natural Selection (i.e. the stuff that happens because of evolution) is irrelevant to the point I was making - that evolution is something that happens after life is created, not something that explains how creation occurred (and therefore it doesn't make sense to have to choose between evolution or creationism).

I'm sorry , but that is possibly the most idiotic thing I have ever read in my life. You attempt at condescending upon the human race has... FAILED. That statement is equal to saying that if cows eat only grass and the grass dies, then the cow dies. I mean what a waste of a post.
I thought the wink on the end and the fact that I almost copied Flisch's post word-for-word was enough of an indication that it was not entirely serious... Given the context, it was an attempt to show that humans can just as easily be thought of as parasites as cockroaches can be - a notion that I do not find condescending at all.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 08:04:27 pm by DarkAngel »

Offline Doctor Z

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1201 on: February 06, 2008, 07:29:45 am »
I followed you up to "In science, nothing happens in a vacuum [...]" Huh?

Offline Flisch

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1202 on: February 06, 2008, 08:31:05 am »
It makes as much sense as asking "Do you believe in apples or do you believe in oranges?" - that is to say, the two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
No, it's more like saying: Do you believe this fruit is an apple or an orange? [picture of a fruit]

And it is mutually exclusive, because creationism disclaims 'macrogrowth'.

In fact - there is no scientific consensus about how life originated!
Ohh, you're wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life
Let me quote:
Quote
Scientific consensus is that abiogenesis occurred sometime between 4.4 billion years ago, when water vapor first liquefied, and 2.7 billion years ago, when the ratio of stable isotopes of carbon (12C and 13C ), iron and sulfur points to a biogenic origin of minerals and sediments and molecular biomarkers indicate photosynthesis.

All that evolution says is, that when a child is born it is made up of bits from both it's mother and its father, and possibly some random mutations too. That's it, the whole theory is right there in that one single fact - children are made of, but are different to, their parents.
(So if you "don't believe in evolution",
then you don't believe in DNA or heritage at all.)


The humans you're referring to actually come from the tropics and can only survive inside buildings in the colder zones.
Buildings built by themselves, not by another species. Buildings are 'part' of the human species, such as ant-hills for ants, nests for birds and hives for bees.

In all regions, they are like parasites, living off the plants, by making shelter out of them, eating them as food, and using them to power human transport vehicles for spreading across the globe.
Eating a species or using it to build structures isn't a parasitic relationship.

Robots evolved from toasters.  There are gaps in the fossil record, but scientifically the connection has been proven.  Myths about long extinct meat bags designing, modifying and otherwise interfering with the origin of robots is just wild unscientific belief in woo.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and all skeptical robots agree that no evidence can be extraordinary enough to be examined or considered.
In science, nothing happens in a vacuum, in the sense of being isolated from influence from outside the scope of the experiment... therefore, skeptical robots agree that it is left up to us to demand our skepticism happens in a vacuum and all conclusions ignore the possibility of external factors.  ;D
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong to believe, that some alien species created humans or other organisms on earth. However, we FOUND fossil links. Also, creationists or fundamentalists believe in (a) god, an omniscient and omnipotent being. Neither does apply to the humans in the analogy you made there.
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Offline Daxx

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1203 on: February 06, 2008, 08:47:05 am »
The humans you're referring to actually come from the tropics and can only survive inside buildings in the colder zones. The majority of humans would become extinct if oxygen-producing-plants died out. Only the specimens with artificial oxygen supplies would survive. In all regions, they are like parasites, living off the plants, by making shelter out of them, eating them as food, and using them to power human transport vehicles for spreading across the globe. And as any parasite, it dies together with its host. ;)

I'm sorry , but that is possibly the most idiotic thing I have ever read in my life. You attempt at condescending upon the human race has... FAILED. That statement is equal to saying that if cows eat only grass and the grass dies, then the cow dies. I mean what a waste of a post.

Ironic.

Offline Doctor Z

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1204 on: February 06, 2008, 09:04:09 am »
I followed you up to "In science, nothing happens in a vacuum [...]" Huh?

There are no completely closed systems.  "nothing happens in a vacuum" means there is always more interacting with whatever is being examined.  The Earth-Moon system can be modeled, ignoring the Sun, and in turn ignoring the Galaxy, etc.  It is an inherent limitations of theoretical models.

Anyway, that was part of the joke... the systems aren't closed, so it is up to the skeptical mind to be closed.
Ok. Now I get it.... sorta.

Offline Yokto

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1205 on: February 06, 2008, 09:14:40 am »
I though there where vacuumed fluctuation in vacuumed? Even i a closed system (Well as closed as one can make it.)



Btw God must be really evil as he lays out all these false leads that points to evolution. That is just so nasty! >_>
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Offline Draugr

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1206 on: February 06, 2008, 09:37:58 am »
DarkAngel, its called "The Theory of Evolution through Natural Selection" for a reason. The idea you were calling Evolution is actually genetic heredity. Also in an earlier post your natural selection happens because of evolution, it is actually the opposite. Evolution occurs because of natural selection(i.e. survival of the best adapted[fittest])
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 09:44:02 am by swamp »
Kings 2:23-24 --- The Holy Bible
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youth.

Offline Draugr

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1207 on: February 06, 2008, 09:39:03 am »
The humans you're referring to actually come from the tropics and can only survive inside buildings in the colder zones. The majority of humans would become extinct if oxygen-producing-plants died out. Only the specimens with artificial oxygen supplies would survive. In all regions, they are like parasites, living off the plants, by making shelter out of them, eating them as food, and using them to power human transport vehicles for spreading across the globe. And as any parasite, it dies together with its host. ;)

I'm sorry , but that is possibly the most idiotic thing I have ever read in my life. You attempt at condescending upon the human race has... FAILED. That statement is equal to saying that if cows eat only grass and the grass dies, then the cow dies. I mean what a waste of a post.

Ah. I see now that your post was not a serious and I apologize. I tend to be blind to sarcasm sometimes.
Kings 2:23-24 --- The Holy Bible
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youth.

Offline Yokto

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1208 on: February 06, 2008, 10:03:52 am »
Well i believe that you can not define nothing without something. Though the void is not nothing. but that is a other topic.
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Offline Manna

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1209 on: February 07, 2008, 12:04:11 am »
That's not true. The cockroaches you're referring to actually come from the tropics and can only survive inside buildings in the colder zones. Though they existed before man and now live in almost every country, the majority of them would go extinct if human dies out. Only the specimen in the warmer regions would survive. In colder regions, they are like parasites living off the human, by living inside its buildings, eating its food and using its transport vehicles for spreading across the globe. And as any parasite, it dies together with its host.

I dont know where you're from but where I'm from we have something called the bush cockroach which survives anywhere in coastal australia - much like Australians. I imagine there is a similar "race" of cockroach which can survive on any habitable landmass, much like ours. The bush cockroach was here long before people (or at least, european people) and my point stands even if it wasn't. We have food and shelter and the cockroach takes it and we cant stop it. This is an act of dominance.

I think you're confusing quantity with dominance.

Quantity IS dominance. A human being on his own cannot control the technologies we boast about. One man can kill a wolf with a gun but a pack of wolves can take down a gunman. Noone could claim that man in the singular sense dominates the world, they mean that Man in the collective sense dominates the world. In any case, it is not the quantity of cockroaches that makes them dominant, it is our inability to control them. Dominance is control.
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Offline Flisch

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1210 on: February 07, 2008, 01:53:51 am »
That's not true. The cockroaches you're referring to actually come from the tropics and can only survive inside buildings in the colder zones. Though they existed before man and now live in almost every country, the majority of them would go extinct if human dies out. Only the specimen in the warmer regions would survive. In colder regions, they are like parasites living off the human, by living inside its buildings, eating its food and using its transport vehicles for spreading across the globe. And as any parasite, it dies together with its host.

I dont know where you're from but where I'm from we have something called the bush cockroach which survives anywhere in coastal australia - much like Australians. I imagine there is a similar "race" of cockroach which can survive on any habitable landmass, much like ours. The bush cockroach was here long before people (or at least, european people) and my point stands even if it wasn't. We have food and shelter and the cockroach takes it and we cant stop it. This is an act of dominance.
If mites crawl onto a harvestman to get transported to whereever the harvestman goes, do you call it dominance? Do the mites dominate the harvestman?
Also cockroaches don't often eat our food, they mostly eat what's left from our food, since our technology keeps cockroaches away from our food. (fridge, packing)

Also, did you mean this bush cockraoch?: http://www.geocities.com/brisbane_hoppers/SmallBushCockroach.htm
If yes, then there is written, that they feed on pollen, honeydew and mould fungus, something which you don't find that often inside buildings. So that means, that this cockroach lives independently from human.

I think you're confusing quantity with dominance.

Quantity IS dominance. A human being on his own cannot control the technologies we boast about. One man can kill a wolf with a gun but a pack of wolves can take down a gunman. Noone could claim that man in the singular sense dominates the world, they mean that Man in the collective sense dominates the world. In any case, it is not the quantity of cockroaches that makes them dominant, it is our inability to control them. Dominance is control.
First: One single individuum can't be considered as a species. Even an equal number of individuums for both species isn't balanced. One bee is nothing, a bee-hive on the other hand can rout a pack of wolves. The hive is more than the sum of its parts.

Second: Give the man all the technology humanity achieved and he will be able to fight many many more wolves and still survive.

Third: 'Man' is not the same as 'a man'. 'Man' refers to humanity.

Fourth: If you say, humans aren't as dominant as cockroaches, then I'm allowed to say, that cockroaches aren't as dominant as mammals. Humanity is a single species. Comparing it's dominance to a whole order isn't 'fair'. It's quite obvious, that whole groups of different species are more dominant together than each single species of that group.

And last but not least: How do cockroaches control humanity? They can't even decide where to go, when they crawl onto a ship or plane. Also the only reason, why cockroaches are still alive, is that humanity does not see them as a serious threat. If we would use all our technology to wipe out cockroaches, then there won't be any cockroaches left soon. It's the same with any other animal, which hasn't got extinct by now: Rabbits and foxes are still alive, though farmers try to shoot them, so that they don't eat their crops or chickens. Applying your logic to these examples would mean, that rabbits and foxes are more dominant than humans and infact control humanity as a whole.
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Offline Yokto

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1211 on: February 07, 2008, 04:36:42 am »
Could we simply drop the dominance discussion? Normally when one talk about dominance one talk about a social setting. That is Human to human interaction, Human to Pet interaction or Wolf to Wolf interaction for example. To apply it outside a social context makes very little sense.  Humans are not dominating Trees as there is no social interaction between trees and humans for example.
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Offline Doctor Z

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1212 on: February 07, 2008, 04:44:45 am »
Well, technically, CRs and Humans do interactive. We give them shelter and food and transport... and they give us... uh... crunchy noises when they are squished?

Huh, CRs are parasites.

Offline Yokto

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1213 on: February 07, 2008, 04:48:44 am »
We also interact with rocks but we do not call this interaction a social one.
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Offline /lurk

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Re: Evolution yes/no
« Reply #1214 on: February 07, 2008, 12:09:38 pm »
Humans are not dominating Trees as there is no social interaction between trees and humans for example.

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