Author Topic: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)  (Read 86234 times)

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Offline Flisch

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #255 on: May 05, 2011, 12:14:15 pm »
You know, there's no debate if you just keep saying "it doesn't" without explaining why you think so.
There is, of course, a difference between having a laugh with someone, and having a laugh at their expense

Offline munchkin5

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #256 on: May 05, 2011, 12:16:04 pm »
My problem is you just made your argument up, there is no scientific reason to believe consiousness exists outside of the physical brain, except you seem to be stating as fact that it does.

Offline Eagle

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #257 on: May 05, 2011, 12:21:47 pm »
Flisch is right.
I am bloody FASHIONABLE eagle!1!

Offline Flisch

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #258 on: May 05, 2011, 12:22:19 pm »
Bluh. I've showed you that simile with the story in a book. Why do you think a consciousness it a physical thing? It's not, it is something abstract, that only exists because the brain creates a pattern that creates the consciousness, that IS the consciousness. But a pattern can be replicated and it will be the same pattern, because it is something abstract. If I create the SAME pattern in another brain I will have the SAME consciousness.
There is, of course, a difference between having a laugh with someone, and having a laugh at their expense

Offline Great Distance

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #259 on: May 05, 2011, 12:26:19 pm »
WELL

IT MAY BE THE SAME CONSCIOUSNESS

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN I WILL SUDDENLY BECOME ANY PERSON WHO HAS THE SAME CONSCIOUSNESS AS I DO

Offline Doctor Z

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #260 on: May 05, 2011, 12:28:50 pm »
Do you really think it will be -you- looking out through those eyes, though? Instead of something that just thinks it's you?


And are you willing to risk your existence on that idea?

Offline emmet

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #261 on: May 05, 2011, 12:31:23 pm »
Flisch, while you're sort of right about a mind not being a physical thing, it is very much a product of one. Your idea that the mind is somehow incorporeal implies that it could exist without being a result of something physically existing, in other words, you seem to believe in a soul. The only difference is that you are calling it by a different name.

Guess what. This forum is exactly as "physical" as a mind is (arguably less so). It's based in something physical, even though you could argue that it is itself just an organization of concepts.

And don't even try to argue that copying this forum is the same as copying a mind. A forum doesn't have consciousness.
No way dude, you're trolling me.

Offline munchkin5

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #262 on: May 05, 2011, 12:33:08 pm »
Bluh. I've showed you that simile with the story in a book. Why do you think a consciousness it a physical thing?

Books aren't conscious. An individual consciousness is unique to the physical object that simulates it, i.e the consciousness isn't physical but is inseparable from its physical host.

It's not, it is something abstract, that only exists because the brain creates a pattern that creates the consciousness, that IS the consciousness. But a pattern can be replicated and it will be the same pattern, because it is something abstract. If I create the SAME pattern in another brain I will have the SAME consciousness.

Nebulous babble ungrounded in reality, you cannot simply posit that it would be the same consciousness without first explaining the mechanism that could achieve that.

Offline Flisch

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #263 on: May 05, 2011, 12:51:22 pm »
Bluh. I've showed you that simile with the story in a book. Why do you think a consciousness it a physical thing?

Books aren't conscious. An individual consciousness is unique to the physical object that simulates it, i.e the consciousness isn't physical but is inseparable from its physical host.
Well, of COURSE books/stories aren't conscious. They're not consciousnesses. I mean, a metaphor only works until a certain point, because if it would line up perfectly with the topic at hand, it would cease to be a metaphor.

*snip*

Also, as I have told Sam already, the book is not an analogy to the consciousness, but to the body.*


It's not, it is something abstract, that only exists because the brain creates a pattern that creates the consciousness, that IS the consciousness. But a pattern can be replicated and it will be the same pattern, because it is something abstract. If I create the SAME pattern in another brain I will have the SAME consciousness.

Nebulous babble ungrounded in reality, you cannot simply posit that it would be the same consciousness without first explaining the mechanism that could achieve that.
Now I am sure you are trolling me. I have explained it several times. How is it NOT the same consciousness? It has EXACTLY 100% the same thoughts, feelings, memories, everything as the other one. You will not be able to disprove my points by IGNORING my points and repeatedly ask me to explain them when I already did. Ask me a specific question to a post I made, or simply accept that you can't argue my points, but this is stupid. -_-

*It is fascinating that you guys apply the same logic to the book as you do to the body. I can't call you inconsistent, I give you that. Just as you value the body more than the actual consciousness, you too value the book more than the actual story.
There is, of course, a difference between having a laugh with someone, and having a laugh at their expense

Offline Doctor Z

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #264 on: May 05, 2011, 12:57:06 pm »
At the very least, I don't care about the body. I only care about the brain, and only in that I don't want to lose my continuity. I don't care if someone else is running around with the exact same brain-structure as me, I don't believe it'll be the same person.

In other words, I value the consciousness a -whole- lot more than you seem to be, because I care, and worry, about whether or not the possibility that it -won't- be me is true, while you seem to be quite sure that it will be!

Offline /lurk

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #265 on: May 05, 2011, 12:58:46 pm »
Okay, let's try ths:

>disintegrate Flisch in the scanner
>beam data to Mars
>make new Flisch
>use data to make another new Flisch
>BUT WHICH ONE DO I SHOOT?
Not a winner anymore.

Offline Luminar

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #266 on: May 05, 2011, 01:03:23 pm »
Now I am sure you are trolling me. I have explained it several times. How is it NOT the same consciousness? It has EXACTLY 100% the same thoughts, feelings, memories, everything as the other one.

But who was phone? Say you copied yourself. No death involved at any point. Do you as an extant consciousness therefore have control over both instances of yourself by virtue of them both being you?

Offline emmet

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #267 on: May 05, 2011, 01:06:07 pm »
Look, Flisch, your argument seems to posit that the definition of "you" is the exact arrangement of chemical reactions and molecules at one given time, a snapshot, as it were.

The problem here is by that definition, we are constantly dying as even one of our cells dies or one reaction stops.

A consciousness is more than just a snapshot of cells and reactions. It is a continuity. A continuity which is broken by the transporter.

I'm going to give you a few scenarios and see how you react to each.

1) You aren't killed by the transporter. You've said yourself that you would briefly be the same consciousness, but I ask you, what does that imply of consciousness? It's like you think that there's some sort of instantaneous wireless link between both minds, as this would be the only way you coukd simultaneously see through both eyes. You also said that the consciousnesses would break apart moments afterwards, due to their differing experiences. The problem here is that when you get killed by a transporter, one of you is experiencing death and one of you is alive, therefore you are different consciousness by your own definition. The alternative to that is to kill one before creating the other, but you yourself discredited that, and it brings us back to the whole "instant wireless link" problem.

2) I take you apart, write down absolutely everything about your chemical arrangement, and then send that information to someone on the other side of the world. 6 months later, you're put back together and "reanimated." Did you just experience an instantaneous jump?

3) You are transported, but a few tiny inconsequential neurons are misplaced. Are you still you? How many neurons does it take for you to say otherwise? How is this different from me taking a chunk of your brain?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 01:08:47 pm by Tesla »
No way dude, you're trolling me.

Offline munchkin5

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #268 on: May 05, 2011, 01:07:54 pm »
Now I am sure you are trolling me. I have explained it several times. How is it NOT the same consciousness? It has EXACTLY 100% the same thoughts, feelings, memories, everything as the other one. You will not be able to disprove my points by IGNORING my points and repeatedly ask me to explain them when I already did. Ask me a specific question to a post I made, or simply accept that you can't argue my points, but this is stupid. -_-

*It is fascinating that you guys apply the same logic to the book as you do to the body. I can't call you inconsistent, I give you that. Just as you value the body more than the actual consciousness, you too value the book more than the actual story.

You haven't explained anything, all you've done, again, is insist that its the same consciousness.

The original consciousness ceased to exist when the brain simulating it died, that person died, you can't just resurrect them by building a copy of their brain and then installing a file marked "memories", of course the new person would experience it as the same consciousness but the old person would have ceased to experience anything when the brain was destroyed.

What you appear to be doing is treating the consciousness as some existential object which survives the death of the brain and then inhabits anything in future that resembles it's old home.

And finally, the book was your goddamn idea.

Offline Doctor Z

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Re: What's Philosophy Do You Follow? (Quiz)
« Reply #269 on: May 05, 2011, 01:13:01 pm »
The first one in the arguement to say the other(s) is/are trolling, is themselves the likeliest to be a troll.


Therefore I posit that Flisch be trollin', yo.