Author Topic: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...  (Read 31897 times)

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Offline Uroboros

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2008, 06:39:05 pm »
Or you could do what I do and wait. Spore is the only game I have ever bought immediately after it came out. All the others I looked into myself, such as borrowing a friend's copy for a bit or playing it for awhile at their place or comments from people who I know have good taste. I based all my decisions on the games I get through that. I played oblivion for a few hours and loved it. So, I got it for the PC later. I have yet to get fallout 3 but all the rave reviews from people and my own brief experiences with it makes it the next game I am getting. I have gotten mostly good games that I have been satisfied without "hemorrhaging" my money. I always make informed purchases and I have never pirated a game. You make it sound like it is the only way to be informed. It is not.
I could also continue what I do, given that it harms nobody and nothing. Unless you figure in the games I didn't buy because they turned out to be terrible, but frankly I couldn't care less. Besides, i've bought games I would have left well alone otherwise, like the previously mentioned FEAR. If only I started doing it sooner, and sticked to it more sternly, then I would have never bought Gears of War LIVE and The Movies, to name just a few. :P

Though suppose that the likely happens : Nobody you know owns the game. How do you make a well-informed decision, given the differing opinions of what good is? Yeah, it helps not to get titles that are still on their 'new game' pricetag, but that doesn't really touch on the core problem here. Expanding on what Hectonkhyres said, it is common practice to borrow/lend games between friends. What if you completed the game without paying for it that way, enjoyed it, but decided never to buy it? The ratio of spread per 'host copy' is irrelevent, to them, a lost sale is a lost sale. I can't vouch for others, but with me, the difference is that I make an effort to buy what I like, or at least take note of the name and buy it when I actually have the cash to do so. Giving them money for a game is the equivilent of giving them a thumbs up and a pat on the back. It funds them. They can make more stuff. Picking games out at random, or going off reviews/opinions of people you don't know, is a gamble that gives the company a thumbs up regardless of whether it turns out to be another Kilik the Blood (some horrendous psx title).

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I did not get that from your other post at all. But I am not blaming you all as individuals.
I know, I know... heh. Just the way people reference to it makes me roll my eyes sometimes, as I have met people that really take to those old anti-piracy commercials that claim purchasing a pirate VHS always definately funds terrorism, drug drealing and arms dealing. You weren't even really preaching to us to begin with, so its all good, but this is just one of 'those' subjects for me. :3

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I sit here and am thinking that I am hardly a Mr. morality person. I drink too much and get into fights too often. I am in no position to lecture others about morality and such, so I will drop it. But even so, I think there are far too many people out there who have a copy of spore who never have any intention of buying it EVEN though is is not the best game out there.
This is why, despite my own use of piracy, I never actually use my own conduct as a reason why piracy as a whole is absolutely fine. There are the indigames developers and small budding companies. They really do need every scrap of money they can muster from their games at that point, and pirating their stuff can really make a lot more of an impact that people seem to realise. These guys and gals are the ones who might turn out to be the next Maxis in years to come, and their growth will depend on how successful they are. As for your drinking and fighting? Ad hominem! You're not allowed to use it even against yourself! *shakes fist*

Offline Moogie

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2008, 07:35:27 pm »
I'm one of those previously mentioned who purchased Spore and then torrented/deleted it after.

I don't usually buy games 'blind'. Usually, I will torrent something that looks interesting, and then make an informed judgement regarding whether they deserve my hard-earned 30-40 quid. However, I purchased Spore 'blind'. I'll never make that mistake again, no matter how hyped something gets.

Usually,

If the game turns out to be rubbish, they haven't lost anything, because I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. Piracy does not equal a lost sale of that sale would never have taken place to begin with.
If the game turns out to be great, then they gain a sale when I go out and purchase my legal copy with secure confidence.

In the case of Spore, however, I was duped into giving up my cash for a game I didn't enjoy. But it was a one-off. It is the exception that proves the rule for me.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 07:38:22 pm by Moogie »

Offline Uroboros

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2008, 08:15:27 pm »
Even if I didn't enjoy Spore, I would be content in having bought it 'blind' because developers need to give more adventurous/ambitious games a chance. It was my effective thumbs-up, regardless of how it turned out. I dont' really play Spore much, but I use the editors even if I don't really go on the game itself.

Offline Gorman Conall

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2008, 03:21:18 pm »
You guys can't seriously be trying to justify pirating?.

A company of people don't spend years and millions of dollars making a game for  people who don't want to risk their money get it for free. Want to know if you will like a game? Research it...once a games out you can find tons of videos screen shots articles and guides..if it does not seem to interest you then don't buy it. You don't have a right to steal a game because you *might not like it*. If you might not like it and don't want to spend the money on it then do without it and don't play it at all.

But i can't change your mind so go right ahead pirate away. Finish off PC gaming its already on its way out. Between pirates hardware costs and consoles doing so well it won't be around for long.

Offline Gauphastus

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2008, 03:38:53 pm »
So long as there are PCs, there will be games for PCs.
But the huge blockbusters (with their unjustifiably massive marketing budgets)? Maybe not so much.

Maybe we could use a good bit less of that stuff anyway. In any case, I don't believe PC gaming will die.
It's really not so simple as that.
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Offline eropS

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2008, 04:05:05 pm »
Pirating cant be justified, you might as well have gone into the store, stolen the game, played it, then if you like it you buy it (maybe), if not you just put the game back. How is that even remotely justified? Plus, its CHEAPER to steal the game from the store if you get caught, because copy right stealing is about 50 grand, stealing a 50$ item is usually a slap on the wrist. You decide which is worse.
No, no, he did. In the everything else section, at least. Officially, this makes him king.

Offline Gorman Conall

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2008, 06:00:14 pm »
So long as there are PCs, there will be games for PCs.
But the huge blockbusters (with their unjustifiably massive marketing budgets)? Maybe not so much.

Maybe we could use a good bit less of that stuff anyway. In any case, I don't believe PC gaming will die.
It's really not so simple as that.

I don't think it will completely die. But i think it will mostly be ruled by MMOs.

Offline Uroboros

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2008, 06:03:58 pm »
Pirating cant be justified
I already have justified it, and the points I brought up have yet to be countered.

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you might as well have gone into the store, stolen the game, played it, then if you like it you buy it (maybe), if not you just put the game back. How is that even remotely justified?
No, just... no. Stealing a copy of the game is actually harming someone, because a physical copy is actually removed and is therefore directly preventing someone else from making a purchase, and depleting stock that had to be bought, directly taking profits away. Even in this farfetched example, returning the stolen game has decreased its value by making it second-hand, and maybe exhausted that CD-Key. That isnt justified at all, which is just as well that nobody is justifying actual theft, but piracy, where there is a difference. You are argueing from the perspective of a criminal attempting to gain at somebody elses loss, and the 'cost' of being caught in a certain act is, in my opinion, a totally seperate subject to the one at hand.

Offline Moogie

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2008, 06:05:56 pm »
(Edit: Uro posted just before me, so this post isn't in response to him - just to clear that up. xD)

I see you're not getting the whole "it's not a lost sale if I wouldn't have purchased it in the first place" thing.

You would be correct if we were talking about physical goods, but we're not. Digital media is a whole different ballpark.

I get to try free samples of foods in supermarkets before I buy a whole pack of them.
I get to leaf through a magazine in the corner shop before I purchase or subscribe to it.
I get to listen to music samples from CDs in the music store -- and this is digital media I'm talking about -- before I lay out a couple of notes on the cashier's desk for it.
So why not try a game before you buy it? Makes perfect sense to me.

Some game companies release playable demos. That's awesome. That's my try-before-you-buy, and in those cases, I wouldn't bother pirating an entire 5GB game when there's a free demo to play.

But most companies can't be bothered these days. They think it's a waste of time, but I think that by not releasing demos they are encouraging piracy from the get-go.

For example, there was no Spore demo. So I couldn't find out how butchered it had become before I purchased it. If I was thinking rationally, I would've held onto my money and torrented it first, but I was caught up in the hype like many others.

I could've saved that money -- which I don't have much of, unlike EA -- tried a demo of a different game, and spent it on that instead. Or donate it to someone like Bay12 Games, an indie developer who actually needs all the donations they can get.

Greed is wrong, but Piracy is a means to an end, in the face of the greed that underpins the big game/music/media industries. It is a victimless crime, as long as the person pirating is genuine in his actions. The people who pirate just so they can own everything for free ARE wrong, and they ARE committing a moral crime/stealing. However, for myself and most people I know, that isn't what happens.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 06:08:42 pm by Moogie »

Offline Null

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2008, 06:16:11 pm »
You all type too fast

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Besides, i've bought games I would have left well alone otherwise, like the previously mentioned FEAR. If only I started doing it sooner, and sticked to it more sternly, then I would have never bought Gears of War LIVE and The Movies, to name just a few. Tongue

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If the game turns out to be great, then they gain a sale when I go out and purchase my legal copy with secure confidence.

This may be true, but I am skeptical. Seeing as you already have the game, there is really little motivation besides your altruism  towards the publishers(or lack thereof) that make it to go purchase a copy. And if there is one thing that I know, it is that the majority of people would not spend extra money on such things unless they absolutely had to. Think of companies cutting corners with safety or the environment. They did not reform until they had to because it cost money. I myself do not count on majority of people to do such things unless they feel as if they have to.

But you bring up a interesting point... we need data or something showing how much a prating could lead to a sale. Or not to. Is the overall effect negligible or are you guys exceptions to the rule? Without more hard information like that the discussion on the pros/cons of this thing are just shots in the dark, hypothetical dithering on both sides.

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I have met people that really take to those old anti-piracy commercials that claim purchasing a pirate VHS always definately funds terrorism, drug drealing and arms dealing.

Seriously? I have never heard anything like that before, that is ridiculous. I cant believe anyone would be that dumb about this.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 06:22:01 pm by Null »

Offline Uroboros

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2008, 07:05:52 pm »
(Edit: Uro posted just before me, so this post isn't in response to him - just to clear that up. xD)
It had better not be! Or wrath!

You all type too fast
Yes, yes we do! :D

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This may be true, but I am skeptical. Seeing as you already have the game, there is really little motivation besides your altruism  towards the publishers(or lack thereof) that make it to go purchase a copy. And if there is one thing that I know, it is that the majority of people would not spend extra money on such things unless they absolutely had to. Think of companies cutting corners with safety or the environment. They did not reform until they had to because it cost money. I myself do not count on majority of people to do such things unless they feel as if they have to.
True enough, and to be perfectly honest, there have been games that I tried and liked, but didn't immediately pay for. FEAR was one of them, and I managed to get it for about 7 cheaper because of my delaying, which is a double edged sword. It was nice to get it cheaper, but on the flip side, that kind of undercut the purpose of having tried before I buyed... in that I played the whole game to its completion, and as a result didn't buy it sooner. This is the biggest counterpoint I encountered to my method of doing things, and I was the one who stumbled on it, typical eh?

As I said, I only really brought up my own habits relating to the subject, to show that it isnt necessarily a damaging factor. Though I can see how a straight out mass-downloader who shares off copies of everything for the price of a blank DVD, poses a real issue in the subject. I really can't deny it, along with the number of people who would simply disregard the entire issue because the victim is a big company who "won't miss the money, they have plenty of it". :/

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Seriously? I have never heard anything like that before, that is ridiculous. I cant believe anyone would be that dumb about this.
They were quite sheltered, when it came to electronics, but they used to put warning things like that on VHS cassettes. They stopped being so blatant about it when the internet and cellphones stopped being a rare sight, and more of a common thing in a household. When I went out to see the recent James Bond movie (despite knowing i'd probably hate it), amongst the half-hour of adverts, was a warning that recording the movie is forcing people to become unemployed, and briefly showed film crews and set workers all bustling about... as if they were going to recieve a percentage of the movie turnover, rather than being paid hourly. :P

Though this just reminded me of a video I watched that talked in passing about people involved in the games industry. Apparently there was a lot at stake depending on how well the game was recieved, and how well it sold, not just for the bigwigs in the adminitration and overseeing side of it, but for the individual coders, testers and such. Something about their pay reflecting in the success of the game, and not so much by how many hours they work, and how they all generally get given the middle finger if a game collapses halfway through being made. Whilst this responsibility doesn't fall on the consumers shoulders, it still makes me pause to think. Spore was a huge potential risk, but they actually had a shot at it. Regardless of the end product, i'm just glad they had a try. Okay, so i'm sliding off into another subject, but it is all kind of linked. xP

Offline Gorman Conall

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2008, 07:15:18 pm »
It does not matter if you would of never bought it anyway. UNDER THE LICENSE YOU ARE NOT LEGALLY ENTITLED TO USE THAT SOFTWARE IF YOU HAVEN"T PURCHASED IT.

You are not buying the license for the game. You are buying the right to use the software under that license.

http://www.it.emory.edu/showdoc.cfm?docid=1652

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You do not become the copyright owner by buying a copy of a software package. Instead, when you buy software, you are purchasing the right to use it, under certain restrictions imposed by the copyright owner.

If you pirate fine. But don't dare try to justify it in anyway. Its still theft and no amount of fear or want or need can justify it. If your opinion differs then fine but i(in the US anyway) Its against federal law. I can say killing is not wrong all i want, It would be my opinion but as long as i live in a nation i am to abide by its laws because that nations society deems it as wrong and if i were to do it i would be punished.

Thats the problems, Pirates are getting away with it, They need to start being caught and punished just like every other criminal.

I understand some of you aren't in the US but I'm sure you have some laws regarding the subject too.

Offline Raz

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2008, 07:31:44 pm »
If Spore's budget to be made was $38 million, and they sold roughly 2 million copies of the base game, that's a basic profit margin of roughly $62 million. That's without any additional costs added in, but this is the base game. Look at Sims. That is Spore's destiny. It is already enough of a huge moneygrabber, that nearly any amount of pirating won't make it unprofitable. People only stop making games(for PC) if its unprofitable. Besides, there are a lot of PR decisions that could be made to lower the pirate percent compared to normal buyers.

Offline Null

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2008, 07:45:11 pm »
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Though this just reminded me of a video I watched that talked in passing about people involved in the games industry. Apparently there was a lot at stake depending on how well the game was recieved, and how well it sold, not just for the bigwigs in the adminitration and overseeing side of it, but for the individual coders, testers and such. Something about their pay reflecting in the success of the game, and not so much by how many hours they work, and how they all generally get given the middle finger if a game collapses halfway through being made. Whilst this responsibility doesn't fall on the consumers shoulders, it still makes me pause to think. Spore was a huge potential risk, but they actually had a shot at it. Regardless of the end product, i'm just glad they had a try. Okay, so i'm sliding off into another subject, but it is all kind of linked. xP

Well, I was thinking that if a game company suffers enough (or goes belly-up) then it will have to lay off their workers as we are seeing happen right now with some of them. But remember me saying that I was not a good example of morality? I could care less about the CEO and company profits. I care about the employees more, but my concern over all this has a self-serving side. I am worried that if these companies see diminishing profits that they will not take risks in innovation or anything. And if a small or medium company goes belly up because of this then that is one more company NOT producing games that I may like or be able to play. The difficult times may cut enthusiasm for innovations or new titles. And at would be a problem for me. But its not just me, it would be for all of you too. Perhaps I am just as self-serving as many others who do pirate, but my views are more focused on the long-term rather than the short-term, and not as much as on purchases of existing games but the production of future games. And that is why I care. Corporate profits and license agreements be damned, heh.

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If Spore's budget to be made was $38 million, and they sold roughly 2 million copies of the base game, that's a basic profit margin of roughly $62 million. That's without any additional costs added in, but this is the base game. Look at Sims. That is Spore's destiny. It is already enough of a huge moneygrabber, that nearly any amount of pirating won't make it unprofitable. People only stop making games(for PC) if its unprofitable. Besides, there are a lot of PR decisions that could be made to lower the pirate percent compared to normal buyers.

This assumes all the money from the cover price goes straight to the company. It does not. Much of the prices is production, shipping and costly retail and middlemen. EA makes far less of this game than $60 for each unit. How much less, I cannot say. But the math above is flawed.  :P
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 07:48:22 pm by Null »

Offline Raz

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Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2008, 08:27:27 pm »
'Middlemen' as a reseller do not factor into the selling of a game unless you count retailers. However, production and transportation do, and retailers must pay to be able to sell the game. I was assuming $50 per game, as per usual PC costs. They may make only $40 per game, as I believe the retailers first completely buy the game and then sell at a marked up price, but this price is still huge profit. Huge profit means those profits can be put towards expansion, and the gaining of yet more money. With a future of expansions of silly little packs, Spore is going to be even more of a moneybag than it already is. Then there will be the sequel and resulting expansions, blah, blah, classic EA marketing at work. In the end, even with 50% pirating, EA becomes millions and maybe even a billion dollars richer than they were before, money to put towards other uses for yet more money. It's a snowball, pirates are simply making the mountain slope a little steeper.