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Will Wright's Spore => Spore: General => Topic started by: Null on December 10, 2008, 04:16:43 pm

Title: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Null on December 10, 2008, 04:16:43 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7772962.stm

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Will Wright's evolutionary epic video game - Spore - has been named the most pirated PC game of 2008, according to the TorrentFreak weblog.

The site used data provided by the peer-to-peer sharing protocol, BitTorrent, to compile a list of the 10 most downloaded PC games in 2008.

The site reported 1.7m illegal downloads of Spore since the game was released in September 2008.

Electronic Arts (EA) said it sold nearly 2m copies of the game.

Will Wright's other big-selling title - The Sims 2 - came second on the list with 1,150,000 copies downloaded.


Well...

...

...

That's almost half. That is say, almost half of the people who have played spore have not payed for spore. I don't care if you think the game is worth it, or if any anti-piracy measures by a company is worth downloading the game. This is sick.

We will either see much more anti-piracy stuff in the future, or game developers will stop making PC games because they are becoming unprofitable. I'm pissed right now. Not for Maxis. Or EA. I am pissed because I am worried my favorite gaming platform will continue its decline because of greedy bastards on BOTH sides.


(Hey! For those of you here who may have missed the sig, I am...was... Fledgeling. I had a screen name change)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Summoner on December 10, 2008, 05:08:20 pm
Really??? that many!!! I would fill ashame if i did that!! If you buy it you dont have to try to keep redownloading if it messes up!!
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: vonboy on December 10, 2008, 05:12:53 pm
spore's got nothing on world of goo though. 90% of the people who played that game downloaded it from a torrent.

i though agree that it still sucks a lot for maxis. any one have an idea how much dough was spent on the development of it? i'm guessing in the 10's of millions at least (i'm scared to think about a game that cost 100 million bucks to make.)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Lippy on December 10, 2008, 05:44:24 pm
i though agree that it still sucks a lot for maxis. any one have an idea how much dough was spent on the development of it? i'm guessing in the 10's of millions at least (i'm scared to think about a game that cost 100 million bucks to make.)

In January Will said the budget was around $38 million I believe. 

FTA: "EA subsequently released a "DRM-lite" version that allowed an unlimited number of installations, but the public relations damage was considerable. "

Did they do that?

Also, does it doesn't say whether the 1.7m is individual downloaders or could there be a bunch of people who have downloaded more than once?
How do they know that people weren't downloading it just to get the DRM free version having already bought it?
How do they know people didn't download it, play it, and then buy it to get online?

Still, 1.7 million is a whole lot.   ;D
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 11, 2008, 12:42:14 am
You're forgetting one thing though, many of those people were angry fans who wanted to prove a point about SecuROM, I myself downloaded Spore AFTER I bought Spore and then deleted the download just to add to the count.  ;)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: martyk on December 11, 2008, 12:57:44 am
Same here, but I think this entire boycott is stupid.  If you're going to boycott something then at least go through with it and don't take part in the product.  It's like boycotting a wal-mart and then ordering from their online store instead.  The big problem with what the anti-piracy boycotters are doing is they're making it apparent just what a big problem piracy is, which will only escalate the problem.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Snork on December 11, 2008, 01:14:23 am
Notice how games that do use copyright protections such as DRM, seem to be pirated more than games that don't.
In fact, that is the only real reason it's pirated. I mean, look as steam, sure, games there ARE pirated, but most of the time, pirated steam games are unable to work probably, and there is no multiplayer. What if said game has a severe bug, that stops it from working? Steam constantly provides it with a patch, if available, but pirated games can't have this.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Klinn on December 11, 2008, 09:28:08 am
...game developers will stop making PC games because they are becoming unprofitable.

Already happening. In the auto sim racing genre, which is a much smaller and more vulnerable niche, one developer went down the tubes a few months ago (10tacle) and another is now developing primarily for consoles instead of the PC (Simbin). People are ripping content and spreading it around for free and the developers can't survive that way.

The pirates respond with their traditional list of excuses, but the end result speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 11, 2008, 09:49:16 am
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the pirates
You make it sound like an organised group.

I'll say this much, yet again : I download things. I pirate them. Why? I'm sick of forking out money for games that I play once or twice then put back in their box and leave alone. At at minimum of £25 and an average of £30-35 a game, its a gamble I really couldn't afford, and stopped gambling on. Now, I try before I buy. Granted, I buy few games in the first place, but I get to be selective and not waste cash this way (only bandwidth). Spore was an exception for me, because regardless of how it would have turned out, I wanted to buy it outright simply because EA and Maxis took a chance on Spore. It was a new idea, and most companies wouldn't have given it the time of day, because of the money it stood to lose. I wanted to fork out for it simply to show support for the creativity and new ideas. The DRM didn't deter me at all. Whereas other things, such as FPS games, I ALWAYS download before I buy. This way, I avoided buying trash like Prey, saving money, and allows you to gained interest in games you only have a fleeting interest in, like FEAR.

The best way I can summerise it all, is a quote from a games developer in some video interview I remember seeing : "$50 isn't a lot of money for a videogame; $50 is a lot of money for a BAD videogame." With the direction customer support tends to go in the videogame industry, and how crap the prices are at trade-in shops, buying videogames really is a bit of a gamble. Demos aren't always accurate portrayals of the final product either. Though I haven't played it myself, I hear Mirrors Edge was an example of this. Is it still illegal to download if you intend to delete it if it is crap, and buy if it good? Yes, it is. Is it wrong? I don't think so. Legality and morality can sometimes not be as synchronous as you think.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yannick on December 11, 2008, 10:15:13 am
In Belgium people don't care. Because of our right of privacy, ISPs can't check your downloads, so you can't get caught.

But I agree. I have bought crappy games, and with my limited allowance, I am severily restricted. So I pirate, if it's crap, it either rots away on my computer, or gets an instant trip to the garbage can (*cough*B&W 2)

If it is good, I consider buying it, if it has multi player I definitely buy it.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: smjjames on December 11, 2008, 10:24:36 am
Yea, demos are often just the basics and are missing alot of features or like downloadable games, limited in time, usually an hour. An hour is often times not enough to get a full idea of the game.

Sometimes a demo will give you a good idea of what the game is like, but they aren't common. These days, it seems like there are fewer demos around (with the exception of most downloadable games), possibly because programs are getting bigger and making a demo version would end up with a big demo.

@Yannick: I've bought crappy games myself, for example Restraunt Tycoon. Sure some micro-management fanatics might like it, but it was too much of it for me. Theres also Zoo Empire (which is a rip off of Zoo Tycoon) which I got off of Gametap and I found the AI to be so stupid that the keepers couldn't even feed the animals properly. Sure it had a couple cool stuff that could have been used in Zoo Tycoon, but if the AI is a faliure and the AI is essential to the management of it, then that makes the whole thing moot.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 11, 2008, 11:03:20 am
I made the mistake of buying The Movies. The single worst purchase I made that I recall.
I would normally just go for the demo, given that the download is smaller, but they tend to be deliberately engineered to hook your interest. Rather than giving you a tiny slice of the cake to sample, they tend to essentially give you the cherry, hoping you think the entire thing will be just as sweet. Its the next kind of doctored screenshot/false pre-rendered 'ingame footage'. Even if a game is technically quite good, it might just not be to your tastes. I never liked Doom3, for example, and I heard of people thinking Prey was pretty good.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Null on December 11, 2008, 11:55:20 am
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I'll say this much, yet again : I download things. I pirate them. Why? I'm sick of forking out money for games that I play once or twice then put back in their box and leave alone.

Thats your problem. No one can predict what you will or will not play again, and the "I dont have much money" excuse does not compute. The only morality in your argument I see is that you don't want to have to spend money for bad games. Not even bad games, games you may not like. But someone made those games and bad or not you utilize them, for who knows how long. If you are pressed for cash and are not going to touch other games again, you can sell them at a used place. You will loose some money, but thats what happens when you make a bad purchase of a poor quality anything. The only difference with electronic stuff is you can take everything for a free spin without having to get past security cameras to do it.

I am sorry if that came off as argumentative, but I cannot see any morality in the justifications you gave other than that you don't want to spend more money. I don't see that as a moral basis for anything. For every other thing, if you can't afford to get it you don't. It's just gratification. Certainly you know by now that buying ANYTHING is a gamble to one degree or another.

I'm... I'm not even ticked that you pirate games. I am just flabbergasted that you are claiming the moral high ground for doing so. The morality of your own wallet does not extend beyond yourself.

Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Mr. Consideration on December 11, 2008, 12:17:14 pm
I take the same approach as I do to music. If the band is reasonably obscure, and really doing something different, and most members are still alive (The Decemberists come to mind), I'll go out and buy their album. I'll be proud. I have paid for Colin Meloy's breakfast. I'll treasure it. I'll read the sleeve notes. I'll lend it to new girlfriends.  If the band is huge, dead, or is idiotic enough to make their albums have special content in another country, I shall steal that album.

If it's immoral to not throw the pittance I earn into the bejeweled hands of millionaires, I am content to be immoral. As far as I'm concerned, game developers and companies make obscene amounts of money anyway, and games are horribly overpriced. Null's arguments seems to be 'Well, don't game then!' I can't afford food, so 'Don't eat!'. Be thankful I exercise any kind of scant morality at all, I could just pirate everything.

I bought Spore because it was a historic game, and I admire then workings behind it, and I am more than happy to have it within my game collection. The same went for Medieval Total War or Civilization or Pirates! They are admirable, interesting games where I get value for my money due to their insane re playability; games like Mirror's Edge which last ten minutes, or Halo, where no imagination has been put into it's creation, I'm more than happy to steal. As far as I'm concerned, these games are worth less due to having less 'Fun' within them, and I'd rather not feed the insatiable cash-lust of boring developers.

Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Doctor Z on December 11, 2008, 12:18:54 pm
Yeah, what he said.

>_>

<_<
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Null on December 11, 2008, 12:30:37 pm
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Null's arguments seems to be 'Well, don't game then!' I can't afford food, so 'Don't eat!'.

Silly comparison. Food is considered a necessity, entertainment is a luxury. If you cant afford to feed yourself you should be focusing on things other than games.

Companies make a lot of money.  Obviously. They make games to make money. Shockingly. As soon as their games stop making enough money, they wont be making games. Despite the fact that you few people decided to part with some cash for this game, it is also apparent that almost as many did not. Enough to offset how much it made to make the game? If not, we will not be seeing such games in the future. And gamers will have no one to blame but themselves. It will be a ironic end indeed.  You wont feed their greed, but won't part with your own money for a product that they made that you want.


Keep pirating, for all I care. Just don't tell me it has moral justification.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 11, 2008, 01:32:13 pm
Well it seem that DRM again fails as always. It would be interesting to see how many actually got a legal copy and downloaded the game. It would be interesting also to see how many downloaded it played it and then decided it was not a good game. (And there are quite a few of those i believe even if i really like the game. I guess i just love editors >_>.)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Mr. Consideration on December 11, 2008, 01:47:54 pm
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Null's arguments seems to be 'Well, don't game then!' I can't afford food, so 'Don't eat!'.
Keep pirating, for all I care. Just don't tell me it has moral justification.

Be thankful I exercise any kind of scant morality at all, I could just pirate everything.

Your moral view is subjective...I think Capitalism is evil, and if I do not wish to engage in it's disgusting, murderous practices, I think that's my choice. If I have the ability to steal, rather than fund a system as evil, I'll take it. I'm no friend to big business.

As far as I'm concerned, Big Business 'stole' the labour of the working classes, so let's just say I'm a charming lovable rogue Robin Hood character.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Ozymandias on December 11, 2008, 01:53:18 pm
I don't think the DRM really failed, after all what else can you do but stop people who illegally download it playing on the internet with it?

I also prefer it myself to other systems, for a start name a game that allows you to play it on more than one computer at the same time? The new games tend to just be starting to bring that in and I think it's a great idea.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 11, 2008, 02:13:21 pm
How does the DRM in Spore really stop people form pirating it?
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Hectonkhyres on December 11, 2008, 02:59:14 pm
As far as I am concerned, the proliferation of crippleware means you no longer have any right to complain about piracy. Its practically an invitation. If they were anything more than a legion of corporate shills they would give up on trying to inflict their wills upon the fanbase and instead just try to build a good rapport with their fans. Let us know that they are at least trying to make us happy rather than trying to find the quickest way to separate us from our money and send us on our way. Let us see their inner workings so we don't have to be perpetually afraid of being cheated. Give us someone with a face whom we can talk to in earnest conversation rather than just giving us the obligatory party line.

Satisfy those conditions and I could no more steal from EA than I could set fire to a sack of newborn puppies. But, lets face it, that isn't what EA is. Stealing from them would, if anything, feel more like Robinhood stealing from the Sheriff of Nottingham. The only reason that I, personally, have not pirated Spore is that I long ago suckered myself into preordering the game from Amazon back before our dreams were shattered.

EA's actions only make its situation worse by providing pirates a clean conscience.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 11, 2008, 03:04:11 pm
Thats your problem.
Thats your opinion. I don't see it as a problem at all.

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and the "I dont have much money" excuse does not compute.
It does to me; there is an alternative to just throwing money at companies without outright robbing them, and I opt to take it.

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The only morality in your argument I see is that you don't want to have to spend money for bad games. Not even bad games, games you may not like. But someone made those games and bad or not you utilize them, for who knows how long.
No, I simply don't want bad games, full stop. I can only find out if a game is bad, or if I don't like, by test-driving it. By doing so, I harm nothing. I can make an informed purchase this way, or rather, I can make an informed non-purchase. If they are so concerned about losing profits from pirated games, they should really consider making piracy a factor in their behaviour, a real factor, not just a throw-away subject of what DRM to slap on the CD, and using individual lawsuits to foot the resulting bill. Remember Oblivion? That game that sold a shedload of copies? Yeah, it didn't have any real piracy protection, did it? And yet it did so great. Does not compute? Indeed. They say they are taking piracy seriously, but they're not, they're largely discarding the issue to no-brainer go-nowhere solutions.

"Hey, we're losing money on this movie, because people are downloading it instead of coming to our theatre."
"Raise the ticket prices to compensate for the loses, but do nothing about the yelling kids who kick the back of the seats, the mid-movie whisper-chatters and the 30 minutes of pre-movie adverts. Its the pirates fault that we had to raise the prices."

"Hey, our last movie didn't make nearly as much in DVD sales."
"Sue individuals and take down all forms of torrenting and P2P. Do nothing about the regurgative scripts, and keep hiring boring celebrity actors who demand absurd wages. That will surely stop us losing money, after all, those pirates have to be stopped."

"Hey, people are pirating this game because they don't like the rigid anti-pirating measures that hurt the legal buyers!"
"Its the pirates fault there are so many downloaded copies, they're greedy people inherantly. Buy a stricter anti-pirating measure for our next game, that should solve the issue!"

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If you are pressed for cash and are not going to touch other games again, you can sell them at a used place. You will loose some money, but thats what happens when you make a bad purchase of a poor quality anything. The only difference with electronic stuff is you can take everything for a free spin without having to get past security cameras to do it.
Except that with electronic stuff, nothing is harmed, rendered second hand, damaged, or lost. Nothing, and absolutely nothing, comes to any harm. The only thing that changes, is a game is purchased, where there would have previously been no purchase if I could not test it, or in the event I tested it and didn't like it. Expecting someone to buy a game uninformed, as most people have little other option to do so, is like having a music store where there are no way to listen to a sample of the music beforehand. How often do people browse a music store and buy a random CD from a genre you generally like?

I'm not going to buy something for £30, only to find out it barely passes for qualifying as the word 'entertainment' in a technical sense, then go to trade it in, only to get £3-5 back. I really don't feel like haemorraging money until I find a game I like, because whilst I did do that for years and years, i'm not going to do it any more. I know that just because a company is big, it doesn't necessarily make it evil, nor does it mean they don't deserve or won't miss a missing sale; but just because a company is big, i'm not just going to dance to their tune and throw my money at them until I get lucky enough to find a game worth keeping, either. Review magazines and sites? That wouldn't be an issue if occasionally you didn't see perfect 10/10's for average games, or if they didn't follow the 7.0 mediocum rule, or if they stopped getting 'sold out' on big upcoming titles. Reviews are subject to opinion, which makes them a bit hit-and-miss. It makes you less likely to buy a total piece of junk but it still stays a gamble. Take a game like Godhand, which was like marmite. You either hate it or you love it.

They make games to make money. Shockingly. As soon as their games stop making enough money, they wont be making games. Despite the fact that you few people decided to part with some cash for this game, it is also apparent that almost as many did not. Enough to offset how much it made to make the game? If not, we will not be seeing such games in the future. And gamers will have no one to blame but themselves. It will be a ironic end indeed.  You wont feed their greed, but won't part with your own money for a product that they made that you want.
Typically, if a game flops, they have to re-examine their approach. If you lose money, you have to figure out what you're doing wrong. If a product doesnt sell, you have to gear yourself to appeal to people and make a product they want. Now, people at least check things out, and see for themselves instead of vomiting cash in the direction of every polished CD/DVD container they see that has captions like "BEST ------ OF THE YEAR!" "10/10 ~ Every magazine in the world". Whilst a good slice of pirated copies will be just people wanting freebies, you also have to consider that a good portion of them is also people not wanting to make a bad move with their wallet. The solution isn't to disadvantage your legal buyers, just to delay the pirates from spreading it for an extra 24 hours. Nor is it a solution to lay on the sponsored magazine previews or hype machines any thicker.

When you read about comparisons of how many items they sold, against how many got pirated, one thing many people overlook is that those figures for the pirated copies are largely speculative. They can literally 'estimate' a number as large as they want, they arent legally held to be truthful or accurate, provided no slander is made (the same for news channels, which I coincidentally see more as an entertainment business than anything totally concerned with truth). Even if they were attempting to be accurate to the rate of copies downloaded, they fail to factor in how many of those pirates went on to buy the actual product itself, wanting to own the original casing, extras, etc, instead of some unmarked DVD with "I'M CONTRIBUTING TO TERRORISM AND DRUG CIRCULATION BY BEING A PIRATE OLOLOL!!1" scribbled on it. They have a choice, they can pass off the responsibility elsewhere and keep sinking, or they can examine the situation and find out where the responsibility and blame really lays.

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I'm... I'm not even ticked that you pirate games. I am just flabbergasted that you are claiming the moral high ground for doing so.
The moral high-ground, eh? Or maybe i'm just pointing out people who pirate arent members of some grind malicious anarchistic organised crime syndicate, and that not everyone who pirates is contributing to killing the host industry like some kind of parasite. I'm not trying to make myself or others out to be some kind of noble Robin Hood (prince of theives) here, but we're hardly the sole stick of dynamite threatening to sink entire entertianment businesses on our own.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 11, 2008, 03:24:28 pm
Yeah it should probably be moved.

Also why are we calling Copyright violation stealing? What you do is brake a state granted monopoly and not steal. It is against the law but technically is not stealing. (Though depending on who you ask it might be just as bad or even worse. Morality is tricky that way >_>)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 11, 2008, 03:37:36 pm
Moved back again. Yay, I am no longer a necrobumper. I feel so much better :3
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: helio-G on December 11, 2008, 03:48:33 pm
I don't think the DRM really failed, after all what else can you do but stop people who illegally download it playing on the internet with it?


That's where you are wrong. DRM failed miserably, not only that but it punishes those who bought the game legitimately.
The pirated version of spore is just as playable Online as it is offline, you just have to know how...its simple, even with the new updates.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Sub on December 11, 2008, 04:09:54 pm
Not every pirated copy is a lost sale.  I personally pirated Spore because it was out on the torrents a few days early, yet I went out and bought it because I enjoyed the Space part of the game.  There are a lot of people who took issue with the DRM and pirated the game without even playing it.  People see 1.7 million copies downloaded and automatically assume that Spore would have sold 1.7 million more copies when in reality, that's simply not true. 

I think the thing to take away from this, though, is that DRM does not work, it can in some cases actually make the problem worse.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Null on December 11, 2008, 04:21:07 pm
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No, I simply don't want bad games, full stop. I can only find out if a game is bad, or if I don't like, by test-driving it. By doing so, I harm nothing. I can make an informed purchase this way, or rather, I can make an informed non-purchase.
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I'm not going to buy something for £30, only to find out it barely passes for qualifying as the word 'entertainment' in a technical sense, then go to trade it in, only to get £3-5 back. I really don't feel like haemorraging money until I find a game I like, because whilst I did do that for years and years, i'm not going to do it any more. I know that just because a company is big, it doesn't necessarily make it evil, nor does it mean they don't deserve or won't miss a missing sale; but just because a company is big, i'm not just going to dance to their tune and throw my money at them until I get lucky enough to find a game worth keeping, either. Review magazines and sites? That wouldn't be an issue if occasionally you didn't see perfect 10/10's for average games, or if they didn't follow the 7.0 mediocum rule, or if they stopped getting 'sold out' on big upcoming titles. Reviews are subject to opinion, which makes them a bit hit-and-miss. It makes you less likely to buy a total piece of junk but it still stays a gamble. Take a game like Godhand, which was like marmite. You either hate it or you love it.

Or you could do what I do and wait. Spore is the only game I have ever bought immediately after it came out. All the others I looked into myself, such as borrowing a friend's copy for a bit or playing it for awhile at their place or comments from people who I know have good taste. I based all my decisions on the games I get through that. I played oblivion for a few hours and loved it. So, I got it for the PC later. I have yet to get fallout 3 but all the rave reviews from people and my own brief experiences with it makes it the next game I am getting. I have gotten mostly good games that I have been satisfied without "hemorrhaging" my money. I always make informed purchases and I have never pirated a game. You make it sound like it is the only way to be informed. It is not.

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When you read about comparisons of how many items they sold, against how many got pirated, one thing many people overlook is that those figures for the pirated copies are largely speculative. They can literally 'estimate' a number as large as they want, they arent legally held to be truthful or accurate, provided no slander is made (the same for news channels, which I coincidentally see more as an entertainment business than anything totally concerned with truth). Even if they were attempting to be accurate to the rate of copies downloaded, they fail to factor in how many of those pirates went on to buy the actual product itself, wanting to own the original casing, extras, etc, instead of some unmarked DVD with "I'M CONTRIBUTING TO TERRORISM AND DRUG CIRCULATION BY BEING A PIRATE OLOLOL!!1" scribbled on it.
But you cannot figure that data. You cannot get that as a number, you cannot factor it in because there is no way TO know. All you have is the download data, and unless you are standing over people's shoulders there is no way you can know what they do with it. The download number is all we have to go on, and you cant get all that reliable data from that either. But it can't be ignored either.
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The moral high-ground, eh? Or maybe i'm just pointing out people who pirate arent members of some grind malicious anarchistic organised crime syndicate, and that not everyone who pirates is contributing to killing the host industry like some kind of parasite. I'm not trying to make myself or others out to be some kind of noble Robin Hood (prince of theives) here, but we're hardly the sole stick of dynamite threatening to sink entire entertianment businesses on our own.

 I did not get that from your other post at all. But I am not blaming you all as individuals.

Robin Hood... for those of you who have said that you are, there is a world of difference from taking and giving to the poor, to taking and giving to yourself with those games that you do not pay for later.

...
I sit here and am thinking that I am hardly a Mr. morality person. I drink too much and get into fights too often. I am in no position to lecture others about morality and such, so I will drop it. But even so, I think there are far too many people out there who have a copy of spore who never have any intention of buying it EVEN though is is not the best game out there.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Hectonkhyres on December 11, 2008, 04:27:54 pm
Or you could do what I do and wait. Spore is the only game I have ever bought immediately after it came out. All the others I looked into myself, such as borrowing a friend's copy for a bit or playing it for awhile at their place or comments from people who I know have good taste. I based all my decisions on the games I get through that. I played oblivion for a few hours and loved it. So, I got it for the PC later. I have yet to get fallout 3 but all the rave reviews from people and my own brief experiences with it makes it the next game I am getting. I have gotten mostly good games that I have been satisfied without "hemorrhaging" my money. I always make informed purchases and I have never pirated a game. You make it sound like it is the only way to be informed. It is not.

I would argue that every time you played a single player game over at your friend's house you were, in some way, pirating. At least as much as the guy who downloads a game and plays around with it for a day or two before deciding if they want to spend any money on it. If one is wrong, both are wrong.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Null on December 11, 2008, 04:32:34 pm
cept' the copy that I played was already paid for by somebody (though a copy does have a master, but this ratio is 1:1 instead of 1:100,000). By that logic, any game you get as a gift for Christmas is pirated because the person who actually PLAYS the game never pays for it.

No, no, I'm done with this.  :-X

EDIT: Oh, my god. I spelled paid and pays wrong. I now am the worst speller here.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 11, 2008, 04:39:53 pm
Soo... There are +2 legal million copies of Spore. In there comercial for Creepy and cute i think they claimed there to be 5 million Creator. Seems a bit weird that there would be more resisted creators then games sold. >_>

Is it piracy or is it all down to the free creature creator? Or are they just lying? :S
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 11, 2008, 06:39:05 pm
Or you could do what I do and wait. Spore is the only game I have ever bought immediately after it came out. All the others I looked into myself, such as borrowing a friend's copy for a bit or playing it for awhile at their place or comments from people who I know have good taste. I based all my decisions on the games I get through that. I played oblivion for a few hours and loved it. So, I got it for the PC later. I have yet to get fallout 3 but all the rave reviews from people and my own brief experiences with it makes it the next game I am getting. I have gotten mostly good games that I have been satisfied without "hemorrhaging" my money. I always make informed purchases and I have never pirated a game. You make it sound like it is the only way to be informed. It is not.
I could also continue what I do, given that it harms nobody and nothing. Unless you figure in the games I didn't buy because they turned out to be terrible, but frankly I couldn't care less. Besides, i've bought games I would have left well alone otherwise, like the previously mentioned FEAR. If only I started doing it sooner, and sticked to it more sternly, then I would have never bought Gears of War LIVE and The Movies, to name just a few. :P

Though suppose that the likely happens : Nobody you know owns the game. How do you make a well-informed decision, given the differing opinions of what good is? Yeah, it helps not to get titles that are still on their 'new game' pricetag, but that doesn't really touch on the core problem here. Expanding on what Hectonkhyres said, it is common practice to borrow/lend games between friends. What if you completed the game without paying for it that way, enjoyed it, but decided never to buy it? The ratio of spread per 'host copy' is irrelevent, to them, a lost sale is a lost sale. I can't vouch for others, but with me, the difference is that I make an effort to buy what I like, or at least take note of the name and buy it when I actually have the cash to do so. Giving them money for a game is the equivilent of giving them a thumbs up and a pat on the back. It funds them. They can make more stuff. Picking games out at random, or going off reviews/opinions of people you don't know, is a gamble that gives the company a thumbs up regardless of whether it turns out to be another Kilik the Blood (some horrendous psx title).

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I did not get that from your other post at all. But I am not blaming you all as individuals.
I know, I know... heh. Just the way people reference to it makes me roll my eyes sometimes, as I have met people that really take to those old anti-piracy commercials that claim purchasing a pirate VHS always definately funds terrorism, drug drealing and arms dealing. You weren't even really preaching to us to begin with, so its all good, but this is just one of 'those' subjects for me. :3

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I sit here and am thinking that I am hardly a Mr. morality person. I drink too much and get into fights too often. I am in no position to lecture others about morality and such, so I will drop it. But even so, I think there are far too many people out there who have a copy of spore who never have any intention of buying it EVEN though is is not the best game out there.
This is why, despite my own use of piracy, I never actually use my own conduct as a reason why piracy as a whole is absolutely fine. There are the indigames developers and small budding companies. They really do need every scrap of money they can muster from their games at that point, and pirating their stuff can really make a lot more of an impact that people seem to realise. These guys and gals are the ones who might turn out to be the next Maxis in years to come, and their growth will depend on how successful they are. As for your drinking and fighting? Ad hominem! You're not allowed to use it even against yourself! *shakes fist*
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Moogie on December 11, 2008, 07:35:27 pm
I'm one of those previously mentioned who purchased Spore and then torrented/deleted it after.

I don't usually buy games 'blind'. Usually, I will torrent something that looks interesting, and then make an informed judgement regarding whether they deserve my hard-earned 30-40 quid. However, I purchased Spore 'blind'. I'll never make that mistake again, no matter how hyped something gets.

Usually,

If the game turns out to be rubbish, they haven't lost anything, because I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. Piracy does not equal a lost sale of that sale would never have taken place to begin with.
If the game turns out to be great, then they gain a sale when I go out and purchase my legal copy with secure confidence.

In the case of Spore, however, I was duped into giving up my cash for a game I didn't enjoy. But it was a one-off. It is the exception that proves the rule for me.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 11, 2008, 08:15:27 pm
Even if I didn't enjoy Spore, I would be content in having bought it 'blind' because developers need to give more adventurous/ambitious games a chance. It was my effective thumbs-up, regardless of how it turned out. I dont' really play Spore much, but I use the editors even if I don't really go on the game itself.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gorman Conall on December 12, 2008, 03:21:18 pm
You guys can't seriously be trying to justify pirating?.

A company of people don't spend years and millions of dollars making a game for  people who don't want to risk their money get it for free. Want to know if you will like a game? Research it...once a games out you can find tons of videos screen shots articles and guides..if it does not seem to interest you then don't buy it. You don't have a right to steal a game because you *might not like it*. If you might not like it and don't want to spend the money on it then do without it and don't play it at all.

But i can't change your mind so go right ahead pirate away. Finish off PC gaming its already on its way out. Between pirates hardware costs and consoles doing so well it won't be around for long.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gauphastus on December 12, 2008, 03:38:53 pm
So long as there are PCs, there will be games for PCs.
But the huge blockbusters (with their unjustifiably massive marketing budgets)? Maybe not so much.

Maybe we could use a good bit less of that stuff anyway. In any case, I don't believe PC gaming will die.
It's really not so simple as that.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: eropS on December 12, 2008, 04:05:05 pm
Pirating cant be justified, you might as well have gone into the store, stolen the game, played it, then if you like it you buy it (maybe), if not you just put the game back. How is that even remotely justified? Plus, its CHEAPER to steal the game from the store if you get caught, because copy right stealing is about 50 grand, stealing a 50$ item is usually a slap on the wrist. You decide which is worse.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gorman Conall on December 12, 2008, 06:00:14 pm
So long as there are PCs, there will be games for PCs.
But the huge blockbusters (with their unjustifiably massive marketing budgets)? Maybe not so much.

Maybe we could use a good bit less of that stuff anyway. In any case, I don't believe PC gaming will die.
It's really not so simple as that.

I don't think it will completely die. But i think it will mostly be ruled by MMOs.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 12, 2008, 06:03:58 pm
Pirating cant be justified
I already have justified it, and the points I brought up have yet to be countered.

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you might as well have gone into the store, stolen the game, played it, then if you like it you buy it (maybe), if not you just put the game back. How is that even remotely justified?
No, just... no. Stealing a copy of the game is actually harming someone, because a physical copy is actually removed and is therefore directly preventing someone else from making a purchase, and depleting stock that had to be bought, directly taking profits away. Even in this farfetched example, returning the stolen game has decreased its value by making it second-hand, and maybe exhausted that CD-Key. That isnt justified at all, which is just as well that nobody is justifying actual theft, but piracy, where there is a difference. You are argueing from the perspective of a criminal attempting to gain at somebody elses loss, and the 'cost' of being caught in a certain act is, in my opinion, a totally seperate subject to the one at hand.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Moogie on December 12, 2008, 06:05:56 pm
(Edit: Uro posted just before me, so this post isn't in response to him - just to clear that up. xD)

I see you're not getting the whole "it's not a lost sale if I wouldn't have purchased it in the first place" thing.

You would be correct if we were talking about physical goods, but we're not. Digital media is a whole different ballpark.

I get to try free samples of foods in supermarkets before I buy a whole pack of them.
I get to leaf through a magazine in the corner shop before I purchase or subscribe to it.
I get to listen to music samples from CDs in the music store -- and this is digital media I'm talking about -- before I lay out a couple of notes on the cashier's desk for it.
So why not try a game before you buy it? Makes perfect sense to me.

Some game companies release playable demos. That's awesome. That's my try-before-you-buy, and in those cases, I wouldn't bother pirating an entire 5GB game when there's a free demo to play.

But most companies can't be bothered these days. They think it's a waste of time, but I think that by not releasing demos they are encouraging piracy from the get-go.

For example, there was no Spore demo. So I couldn't find out how butchered it had become before I purchased it. If I was thinking rationally, I would've held onto my money and torrented it first, but I was caught up in the hype like many others.

I could've saved that money -- which I don't have much of, unlike EA -- tried a demo of a different game, and spent it on that instead. Or donate it to someone like Bay12 Games, an indie developer who actually needs all the donations they can get.

Greed is wrong, but Piracy is a means to an end, in the face of the greed that underpins the big game/music/media industries. It is a victimless crime, as long as the person pirating is genuine in his actions. The people who pirate just so they can own everything for free ARE wrong, and they ARE committing a moral crime/stealing. However, for myself and most people I know, that isn't what happens.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Null on December 12, 2008, 06:16:11 pm
You all type too fast

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Besides, i've bought games I would have left well alone otherwise, like the previously mentioned FEAR. If only I started doing it sooner, and sticked to it more sternly, then I would have never bought Gears of War LIVE and The Movies, to name just a few. Tongue

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If the game turns out to be great, then they gain a sale when I go out and purchase my legal copy with secure confidence.

This may be true, but I am skeptical. Seeing as you already have the game, there is really little motivation besides your altruism  towards the publishers(or lack thereof) that make it to go purchase a copy. And if there is one thing that I know, it is that the majority of people would not spend extra money on such things unless they absolutely had to. Think of companies cutting corners with safety or the environment. They did not reform until they had to because it cost money. I myself do not count on majority of people to do such things unless they feel as if they have to.

But you bring up a interesting point... we need data or something showing how much a prating could lead to a sale. Or not to. Is the overall effect negligible or are you guys exceptions to the rule? Without more hard information like that the discussion on the pros/cons of this thing are just shots in the dark, hypothetical dithering on both sides.

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I have met people that really take to those old anti-piracy commercials that claim purchasing a pirate VHS always definately funds terrorism, drug drealing and arms dealing.

Seriously? I have never heard anything like that before, that is ridiculous. I cant believe anyone would be that dumb about this.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 12, 2008, 07:05:52 pm
(Edit: Uro posted just before me, so this post isn't in response to him - just to clear that up. xD)
It had better not be! Or wrath!

You all type too fast
Yes, yes we do! :D

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This may be true, but I am skeptical. Seeing as you already have the game, there is really little motivation besides your altruism  towards the publishers(or lack thereof) that make it to go purchase a copy. And if there is one thing that I know, it is that the majority of people would not spend extra money on such things unless they absolutely had to. Think of companies cutting corners with safety or the environment. They did not reform until they had to because it cost money. I myself do not count on majority of people to do such things unless they feel as if they have to.
True enough, and to be perfectly honest, there have been games that I tried and liked, but didn't immediately pay for. FEAR was one of them, and I managed to get it for about £7 cheaper because of my delaying, which is a double edged sword. It was nice to get it cheaper, but on the flip side, that kind of undercut the purpose of having tried before I buyed... in that I played the whole game to its completion, and as a result didn't buy it sooner. This is the biggest counterpoint I encountered to my method of doing things, and I was the one who stumbled on it, typical eh?

As I said, I only really brought up my own habits relating to the subject, to show that it isnt necessarily a damaging factor. Though I can see how a straight out mass-downloader who shares off copies of everything for the price of a blank DVD, poses a real issue in the subject. I really can't deny it, along with the number of people who would simply disregard the entire issue because the victim is a big company who "won't miss the money, they have plenty of it". :/

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Seriously? I have never heard anything like that before, that is ridiculous. I cant believe anyone would be that dumb about this.
They were quite sheltered, when it came to electronics, but they used to put warning things like that on VHS cassettes. They stopped being so blatant about it when the internet and cellphones stopped being a rare sight, and more of a common thing in a household. When I went out to see the recent James Bond movie (despite knowing i'd probably hate it), amongst the half-hour of adverts, was a warning that recording the movie is forcing people to become unemployed, and briefly showed film crews and set workers all bustling about... as if they were going to recieve a percentage of the movie turnover, rather than being paid hourly. :P

Though this just reminded me of a video I watched that talked in passing about people involved in the games industry. Apparently there was a lot at stake depending on how well the game was recieved, and how well it sold, not just for the bigwigs in the adminitration and overseeing side of it, but for the individual coders, testers and such. Something about their pay reflecting in the success of the game, and not so much by how many hours they work, and how they all generally get given the middle finger if a game collapses halfway through being made. Whilst this responsibility doesn't fall on the consumers shoulders, it still makes me pause to think. Spore was a huge potential risk, but they actually had a shot at it. Regardless of the end product, i'm just glad they had a try. Okay, so i'm sliding off into another subject, but it is all kind of linked. xP
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gorman Conall on December 12, 2008, 07:15:18 pm
It does not matter if you would of never bought it anyway. UNDER THE LICENSE YOU ARE NOT LEGALLY ENTITLED TO USE THAT SOFTWARE IF YOU HAVEN"T PURCHASED IT.

You are not buying the license for the game. You are buying the right to use the software under that license.

http://www.it.emory.edu/showdoc.cfm?docid=1652 (http://www.it.emory.edu/showdoc.cfm?docid=1652)

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You do not become the copyright owner by buying a copy of a software package. Instead, when you buy software, you are purchasing the right to use it, under certain restrictions imposed by the copyright owner.

If you pirate fine. But don't dare try to justify it in anyway. Its still theft and no amount of fear or want or need can justify it. If your opinion differs then fine but i(in the US anyway) Its against federal law. I can say killing is not wrong all i want, It would be my opinion but as long as i live in a nation i am to abide by its laws because that nations society deems it as wrong and if i were to do it i would be punished.

Thats the problems, Pirates are getting away with it, They need to start being caught and punished just like every other criminal.

I understand some of you aren't in the US but I'm sure you have some laws regarding the subject too.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Raz on December 12, 2008, 07:31:44 pm
If Spore's budget to be made was $38 million, and they sold roughly 2 million copies of the base game, that's a basic profit margin of roughly $62 million. That's without any additional costs added in, but this is the base game. Look at Sims. That is Spore's destiny. It is already enough of a huge moneygrabber, that nearly any amount of pirating won't make it unprofitable. People only stop making games(for PC) if its unprofitable. Besides, there are a lot of PR decisions that could be made to lower the pirate percent compared to normal buyers.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Null on December 12, 2008, 07:45:11 pm
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Though this just reminded me of a video I watched that talked in passing about people involved in the games industry. Apparently there was a lot at stake depending on how well the game was recieved, and how well it sold, not just for the bigwigs in the adminitration and overseeing side of it, but for the individual coders, testers and such. Something about their pay reflecting in the success of the game, and not so much by how many hours they work, and how they all generally get given the middle finger if a game collapses halfway through being made. Whilst this responsibility doesn't fall on the consumers shoulders, it still makes me pause to think. Spore was a huge potential risk, but they actually had a shot at it. Regardless of the end product, i'm just glad they had a try. Okay, so i'm sliding off into another subject, but it is all kind of linked. xP

Well, I was thinking that if a game company suffers enough (or goes belly-up) then it will have to lay off their workers as we are seeing happen right now with some of them. But remember me saying that I was not a good example of morality? I could care less about the CEO and company profits. I care about the employees more, but my concern over all this has a self-serving side. I am worried that if these companies see diminishing profits that they will not take risks in innovation or anything. And if a small or medium company goes belly up because of this then that is one more company NOT producing games that I may like or be able to play. The difficult times may cut enthusiasm for innovations or new titles. And at would be a problem for me. But its not just me, it would be for all of you too. Perhaps I am just as self-serving as many others who do pirate, but my views are more focused on the long-term rather than the short-term, and not as much as on purchases of existing games but the production of future games. And that is why I care. Corporate profits and license agreements be damned, heh.

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If Spore's budget to be made was $38 million, and they sold roughly 2 million copies of the base game, that's a basic profit margin of roughly $62 million. That's without any additional costs added in, but this is the base game. Look at Sims. That is Spore's destiny. It is already enough of a huge moneygrabber, that nearly any amount of pirating won't make it unprofitable. People only stop making games(for PC) if its unprofitable. Besides, there are a lot of PR decisions that could be made to lower the pirate percent compared to normal buyers.

This assumes all the money from the cover price goes straight to the company. It does not. Much of the prices is production, shipping and costly retail and middlemen. EA makes far less of this game than $60 for each unit. How much less, I cannot say. But the math above is flawed.  :P
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Raz on December 12, 2008, 08:27:27 pm
'Middlemen' as a reseller do not factor into the selling of a game unless you count retailers. However, production and transportation do, and retailers must pay to be able to sell the game. I was assuming $50 per game, as per usual PC costs. They may make only $40 per game, as I believe the retailers first completely buy the game and then sell at a marked up price, but this price is still huge profit. Huge profit means those profits can be put towards expansion, and the gaining of yet more money. With a future of expansions of silly little packs, Spore is going to be even more of a moneybag than it already is. Then there will be the sequel and resulting expansions, blah, blah, classic EA marketing at work. In the end, even with 50% pirating, EA becomes millions and maybe even a billion dollars richer than they were before, money to put towards other uses for yet more money. It's a snowball, pirates are simply making the mountain slope a little steeper.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 12, 2008, 09:55:47 pm
Feel free to disregard this post, for the subject is one potentially without end. With me, it can also cause your brain to asplode from volume. Agree to disagree, but this is my tl;dr version as usual. :3
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If you pirate fine. But don't dare try to justify it in anyway. Its still theft and no amount of fear or want or need can justify it. If your opinion differs then fine but i(in the US anyway) Its against federal law. I can say killing is not wrong all i want, It would be my opinion but as long as i live in a nation i am to abide by its laws because that nations society deems it as wrong and if i were to do it i would be punished.
There is no question about it, pirating is illegal. However theft and pirating of digital media are quite seperate, for reasons previously mentioned. Saying "don't dare try to justify it in any way" is a regurgitive response i'm sick of hearing to any mention of having pirated. Tht is like me making my point about legality and morality being two different things, then ending it with "I speak only for myself, don't dare try to disagree with my view in any way".

Your comparison between pirating digital media and murder is a really disconnected example, and is practically a polar opposite. Murder directly inflicts ill on others to a high severity. Piracy of the type that I indulged in, does not harm anything. I'd be entirely for a punishment that forces a pirate to pay for what they downloaded when caught... but thousands in currency? Jailtime? A guy and three of his friends can kick someone to the floor and literally jump up and down on the victims head and be let off with community service and a £500 fine, whilst the victim comes back from the brink of death. A burglar can sue the owners of the house if he hurts himself in the process. Someone can be arrested for 'battery' for farting at a police officer and a child can be taken in for 'using a lethal weapon' for firing a paper pellet from a rubber band in school, and causing a welt. Its not so black and white though, is it? Law is black and white, and yet still finds room for incredible lengths of interpretation, often based on little more than the bendy-straw style weaving of a lawyers ability to cross-reference and read, and sometimes just in the charisma of how it is presented and brought up. Similarly, I don't see things as black as white as "Pirating is bad and you should feel bad" as a set-in-stone premise just because it is illegal, and saying such as a sidestep to ignore points being made just annoys me... and makes me yammer on like a buffoon.
This post is exhibit A. :P

A personal experience with being caught, and punishment? I was browsing torrents and a prang of inspiration hit me. I wanted to make some pre-spore drawings of things I might eventually make in-game. Rather than opening another tab to scour the official site, I looked up Macromedia Flash 5, an old one I had messed around with before. I torrented it, but didn't download the crack files and such. I used the installer and hit up the trial edition. I played around with it for a few hours whilst listening to music, found inspiration had left me, failed at some shape tweening, and uninstalled it in frustration. Several days later, my internet connection was disabled, and a letter arrived about my account being frozen for downloading Flash from the torrent. It was reenabled when I sent a letter back, as requested, confirming I deleted it from my system, and my account was marked with a warning. Three warnings equals permenant termination, along with the phoneline they also provided, and possible legal action. Fair enough, I thought, although annoyed at being without the internet for a week. I would just be more careful how I deal with torrents, and I could just grab the installer from the official site the next time I felt like a crack at it.

Oh wait, no I couldn't. They stopped selling Flash 5 ages ago, it is a product they no longer support, and no longer provided. The crack file wasnt downloaded, and my uprate was set to zero. Turns out they were doing it to a lot of people, and an aqquaintance told me that they were bombarding people who legally own it with advertisements, in an effort to get the flash-using market to purchase their newer (buggier) products. People with obsolete (but stable) versions are less likely to upgrade to their equivilent of Vista. So, even if I had been patient enough to buy the full Flash 5 product in any place it might still be available (used copy from ebay, perhaps?), I would have an unsupported program and even more free corporate sodomy. It wasn't technically pirating, but I could have been, so it legally I had to get 'marked'. It left a sour taste in my mouth, but oh well, not a lot anyone can do about it... or the fee they charged for freezing my account for that short period. I tried to explain it over the phone, but in the end they couldn't do anything because it was out of their hands.


The few counterpoints that do genuinely hold water against the 'pro-pirate' points i've made, tend to be more gray-area than holding the pirates in whole fault. Such as the wax and wane of a companys profits and their ability to output games. That is normal, even if piracy was a total non-factor. Products still flop, and businesses are always undergoing cutbacks and little growth spurts, it is rarely a still for long. Choosing to cut back, take less risks and fire staff has happened long before torrents and P2P really became big. I can't deny how much piracy CAN unfairly effect business. So if it has such a negative effect, why are businesses totally neglecting to minimise large causes of piracy? In this subject, the original DRM in Spore is a prime example. Whilst I personally had no issue with it at all, I hear it caused hassle for a good number of users, and it created a huge negative reaction prior to release... all for what? How long did it delay the crackers? Months? Weeks? Days? More like hours. Think about it for a moment, and take this with a grain of salt. Do you think so many people would have pirated Spore, if the anti-piracy measures weren't so harsh? I don't think so. Is the data widely available, to show that such anti-piracy measures are hugely ineffective and a terrible investment of money that only provokes a sharp rise in pirated copies? Yes. So, explain to me, if they are so averse to piracy, and really really really don't want to lose that money, why was it included? Which is the fastest to enact? Halting millions of people from engaging in piracy, halting all P2P and torrent-based services, or rethinking the approach? You can sue individuals. You can sue groups. You can pull down websites. You can make programs illegal. But can you halt human nature at large, when the act is anonymous and the victim appears only as a faceless overfed machine to the average pirate? Can you halt filesharing or govern the entire internet, when like a hydra with a head cut off, two more programs or two more work-arounds will appear in place of any that are taken down? No, you cannot.

So the options are thusly : Piss in the wind, shrug and say its not your fault when the profits suffer from piracy. Or accept that it cannot be just discarded so easily, and is an actual factor that needs to FULLY figure into their decisions, not just as a discardable "buy that thingy that doesnt stop them but causes more piracy, that'll get our money back".

Am I saying what I did/do is legal? Of course not. I never said it was.
Am I saying people should be given the benefit of the doubt, just because many torrents can be used for legal and innocent downloads, or that some actually have self-inflicted morals? Definately not.
Am I saying its more complex than "Piracy is bad and you should feel bad"? Yes.
Most of all, it doesn't deserve a sentence comparable to deliberate physical attacks and physical theft, unless the piracy also includes redistribution and the actual value of the material is large enough to warrant it. Someone who steals a magazine or a can of cola from a store should not get the same scale of punishment as someone who totally burgles an expensive business showhouse. Let the punishments fit the crime, at the very least.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Kidsoldier on December 12, 2008, 10:15:13 pm
Uroboros=fail
Null=win

End of Story.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Snork on December 12, 2008, 11:12:37 pm
Uroboros=Epic Win
Null=win

End of Story.
Fixed :P
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 12, 2008, 11:25:51 pm
Fixed :P
Heh, epic only in volume, i'm afraid...

Uroboros=fail
Null=win

End of Story.
This reminds me of a story, actually! Once upon a time, there was a poster who struggled to write more than one sentence per post. With time and effort, he aspired to one day manage to write a short paragraph of his very own, containing sentences as long as seven words, or maybe more! Then everyone would like him, and oh how they would cheer for his relevent and witty conversation! But along came mean old Mr.Boros, who mistook the waft of the idly flapping piehole as a cesspool chute, and so happily helped him to drink a bucket of his own sh*t. Now, can anybody guess what the moral of this story is?  ;3
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Doomsday on December 13, 2008, 12:41:52 am
Hey.. stop it you guys. Play nice. You know how touchy this subject is around here, well just in general. Keep it civil. Yes, Kidsoldier was wrong, off-point, rude, and not contributing to the thread, but by engaging him you are merely dragging the thread off topic further.

Uroboros, you should know to just ignore people like that by now (people do it often enough to me...), so just forget about it and get back to the topic at hand.

Now play nice everyone. Or else.

*wanders off mumbling; "Damn kids and their whozits and whatzits. Always fighting... ungrateful.. spoiled.. rotten... *trails off*"
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gorman Conall on December 13, 2008, 01:56:58 am
Uro: You make good points and in the end we still only agree to disagree and that's ok of course. But theirs one thing left for me to say..you really can't justify piracy for a simple reason you stated.

Its illegal, It does not matter who agrees on whether or not it should be legal..but can you really justify committing a crime that's basically theft for personal pleasure?

Its not like stealing food for your sick hungry family. That can be justified.

Its illegally downloading a video game because you don't want to pay for it. Theirs no justification in that.

Whoever pirates that's their business not mine, I just don't like people attempting to justify it. No doubt my murder example was disconnected but the principle is the same.

The flash thing was seriously silly though....that shouldn't of caused you problems.

Their are things i download now..buts its legal because the company that made them are out of business and the product is no longer being manufactured and or the product is really old. I would think that would have been the case with the flash  :-\.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Kidsoldier on December 13, 2008, 02:22:16 am
Yeah, thanks Mr. Boros. You sure did open my eyes.

Although thats just my opinion, and it is allowed to be voiced without being attacked.
I dont see how it was rude or wrong, because opinions cant really be wrong.
But it definately was not contributing to the thread; just did it so that you guys can see where another member of this community stands is all. No need for the imaturity of vengeful replies trying to be mean to another player who is only sharing his opinion.

Thanks for taking the time out to write me a nice paragraph though, Kudos to you.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gorman Conall on December 13, 2008, 03:16:06 am
Chill it kid, Opinions can't be wrong but how you expressed yours was rude and imo pretty childish.

You could of found a more appropriate way to display *how another member of the community stands without.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Kidsoldier on December 13, 2008, 03:19:31 am
Wasnt really bothered in writing an educated reply.. Was in a hurry and wanted to support Null so he didnt feel like people were against him.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gauphastus on December 13, 2008, 04:16:57 am
Next time, approach a topic with the intent to discuss the issue at hand rather than the people involved.
You don't support a man's argument by telling everyone he's great, and that his opponent is a fool.

If you have an opinion on software piracy, feel free now though. Mic's open.


I don't necessarily agree entirely with any one party here of course.
I'd like to believe piracy is justified somehow if I'm downloading old stuff no longer produced or supported. This is however still a justification, as there is still a legal holder to the title of this software.
I like to believe I am completely 100% justified if I've bought the game for the PS3 for example, and it later comes out on PC. I will download it for PC (mods, graphic packs, stuff like that).

The more recent software? Well... I guess I just feel like art software packages cost too damned much for individuals. If they were to license commercially, by all means charge 700 bucks a license.
But for little old me? Same price?
That's retarded. Break me a better deal, you jerks.
In Spore's case, I did download first back when it was leaked (I wanted it NOW). Of course I bought it on release anyway because I'd already decided I was going to support it. I want to see where this goes, even if I don't like where it is now.
Did that harm anyone? I still had the game for a short time without paying for it, but I did ultimately pay full price for a copy regardless. I guess whether or not I planned on it already is irrelevant as that's on my word and only my word.

I tend to believe that because of a more computer savvy public and the relatively easy accessibility of piracy related software and websites, we are seeing piracy grow more and more.
People would sooner not spend money than spend it at all. It's easier this way.
It's not as simple as that though, I know. I've said that already. There are tons of factors, including but not limited to --
Will the game be good? How much is it? Is it long enough? Can I play with my friends? Do I have to pay a subscription? Can my computer handle it? Does it work? How far away is the store? Do they have it in stock? If I order it online, how much is shipping? How long will it take to ship?

Then the free alternatives come to mind.
Where can I download it? How fast will it download?

See, if it's not good/doesn't work on your computer/was lame, you just delete it. It was free. Who cares?
All around, I think it's because piracy is simply easier to do. Sometimes I even doubt the game cost is an issue at all.


I'm a stingy guy. I've got lots of money but none to waste.
I hate taking risks and over the years as a gamer, I've come to dislike simply purchasing a title outright.
Even a long-running quality series can turn to crap one sequel later.

Whatever. I feel like I'm rambling. I need sleep.
Here, have an image I found appropriate.

(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7043/1222681382796fb4.gif)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 13, 2008, 08:34:09 am
Hey.. stop it you guys. Play nice.
I thought I was just being funny at the time, but I guess thats what staying awake until 6am does to you. Why am I getting mental images of "Bottom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottom_(TV_series))", now? Man, that was puerile genius...

Its illegal, It does not matter who agrees on whether or not it should be legal..but can you really justify committing a crime that's basically theft for personal pleasure? Its illegally downloading a video game because you don't want to pay for it. Theirs no justification in that.
Noooo, this is the largest point we can make, piracy of digital media isnt necessarily 'true theft', but then again seeing as I say this from my own standpoint of buying it if I like it, it doesnt exactly hold true for the general majority. I still say its not the same as actual theft, which hurts the distributors and such further down the chain of business, as opposed to the decision-makers up at the top that piracy does, but immoral or not, yeah, its illegal.

I dont see how it was rude or wrong, because opinions cant really be wrong.
Do I have to make you drink anothe~ ...no. No, I must remember, its not big and its not clever, and I wasn't being funny.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: munchkin5 on December 13, 2008, 09:36:42 am
Piracy is like speeding, people know it's wrong, ad why it's wrong, some people will do it sometimes because they have made a judgement that the consequinces are small, and they are right about that enough of the time to not make it a major problem, a small minority of people will do it all the time because it doesn't directly affect them, and a slightly bigger minority don't do it at all, it's not like the whole industry is crashing and burning. BTW for spore 2 million copes for $50 each= $100 million, and most cases of piracy don't equate to what would of been sales without them, so it's not even like there losing money on it that much, they made a profit of over $60 million dollars.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Null on December 13, 2008, 10:45:12 am
This how the user response to the DRM was
(http://www.blogbypass.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/keep_off_the_grass.jpg)

Whenever you see a keep off the grass or a 'do no touch' sign, doesn't part of you just want to do the opposite?


Quote
Was in a hurry and wanted to support Null so he didnt feel like people were against him.

Er, thanks but I did not get that feeling at all. Uroboros has been respectful throughout, and I am enjoying the discussion with him even though he has a habit of drowning opponents in text  ;D.

Quote
$50 each= $100 million
No, no, no. A conservative and realistic profit return would be 60% (give or take 15%), or $30 per unit. So 60million - 38 million for production = 22 million. That sounds like a OMG biiiig number, but it is crap compared to most other big-title games.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 13, 2008, 11:21:38 am
Then there is the matter of where the money gets swallowed. You know, how much the seller gets in comparison to how much they bought it for (and in turn how much profit the creator actually made, in comparison to how much profit the outlets made).

Whenever you see a keep off the grass or a 'do no touch' sign, doesn't part of you just want to do the opposite?
It makes me wonder if kids saw their parents being a stoned embarassment to themselves, sayings its cool and they should try it, would the kids outright vow to never try? Maybe you could combat pirates through confusion, use absolutely no anti-piracy measures and put a label on all the boxes saying : "Pirate this game".

Quote
Er, thanks but I did not get that feeling at all. Uroboros has been respectful throughout, and I am enjoying the discussion with him even though he has a habit of drowning opponents in text  ;D.
They can't win if they're too bored to finish reading my posts! (http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/filibuster.htm) >:3
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 13, 2008, 11:50:47 am
Anyone has a alternative solution to the problem of compensating the creator?

(or to be more precise. A other model to promote culture and the spreed of information and innovation.)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 13, 2008, 12:50:48 pm
Anyone has a alternative solution to the problem of compensating the creator?

(or to be more precise. A other model to promote culture and the spreed of information and innovation.)
Get rid of greedy publishers who spent more time and energy thinking up new ways to keep people from stealing the game they're publishing while stealing their customers money than thinking up new ways to help and assist their customers so they wont feel ripped off.
Or creators could do like Trent and stand up to them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFXivarypE4

You shouldn't steal from creators you like but you shouldn't support their greedy publishers, it's a big dilemma.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 13, 2008, 02:15:56 pm
And what model do you propose? You know just saying we should get rid of the publishers will solve nothing. You need to do something about it.

(Beyond just protesting and violating copyright laws. Yeah you heard me. Is a violation to copyright law to "pirate" something. Stealing is something completely different. It really annoys me when people mix those things up.)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 13, 2008, 02:40:58 pm
And what model do you propose? You know just saying we should get rid of the publishers will solve nothing. You need to do something about it.

(Beyond just protesting and violating copyright laws. Yeah you heard me. Is a violation to copyright law to "pirate" something. Stealing is something completely different. It really annoys me when people mix those things up.)
I didn't mean to mix up stealing and pirating, sorry, but in some way you are stealing the creators intellectual property.

There is no model? You can't just change the entertainment industry.
I'm just saying, if you really needed to do something about piracy, unfair publishers and compensating the creator, creators themselves protesting against their publishers would be the only "realistic" way of going about it, I believe. Or creators should start publishing themselves.

Publishers aren't interested in the product as such, they just want to market and sell it, that's why we're seeing an increasing number of uninspired boring entertainment products. Nobody outside of the gaming industry is really thinking outside the box or reinventing the wheel, but that's because the gaming industry is fairly new, it can't be long until every game will look the same, EA is making that industry head there fast.

...I'm just really P'd off at the inane music that's currently being pushed in to the market constantly by greedy record labels, so I'm just ranting, sorry.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Null on December 13, 2008, 02:55:55 pm
"stealing" is not limited to physical objects. People say that they have their ideas stolen all the time. That is why they invented copyright.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 13, 2008, 04:27:38 pm
Well first take the issue about why copyright infringement is not stealing. A Copyright like i have said before is a State Granted Monopoly. Normally is set for a limited time and gives the creator (and potential publishers) exclusive right to the reproduction of a work of art. By granting the creator the exclusive right for a limited time is the hope that it will stimulate the distribution of works of art.

Now stealing is when you take the property of someone and thereby deprive them form using there property. To copy a work of art does not do this. The original is still there. It may undermine the copyright it self but is not stealing. To steal a copyright or IP for that matter you need to take the monopoly form is owner. This hardly ever happens though i have heard stories about patent clerks being bribed in to delaying or otherwise tapering with patents in the hope that someone else gets the exclusive right even though he is not entitled to it according to law. (Some claims that Alexander Graham Bell bribed a patent clerks to get his patent though before Elisha Gray. But this probably is just a story.)

BTW: You can not copyright ideas. This is a big misunderstanding. No nation i know of has any form of state granted monopoly for simple ideas. They must achieve a certain culture status to gain protection. A book can be copyrighted yes. The idea of wearing black sneaker with a yellow tuxedo as a fashion statement can not.



So back to the main issue. If we still hold true to idea that we should stimulate the spreed of culture, ideas and new innovations then what kind of laws should we have? Should we keep the laws we have today or we change them? Is there a problem today?

Or am i wrong in that the law should promote the spreed of culture, ideas and new innovations? If so then what is the point of the laws?

If we do not start to go in deep and analyze the problem (if there is one) the we can not really say anything about it. Nether pro or con. That is a big problem with this discussion. It easily collapse it to bickering about pirates are evil or publishers are evil without really addressing the issue.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 13, 2008, 05:18:34 pm
If you look at it in a bigger picture: When downloading a product and violating copyrights, you're not paying for the product that a creator made, he will not receive money for his product, and he will thereby not be able to use the hypothetical property he would've bought with the money he should've gotten from the product you downloaded and did not pay for, so you are indirectly stealing. As long as there is a monetary system, pirating is stealing.

Besides, it's not like just because it's ones and zeros on a computer it's suddenly fine to "take" a product without paying the price it costs. Just because you export tracks from a CD to files on your computer doesn't mean the artist won't lose money when you send it to your peers online. You would use the word "steal" or "theft" if you had to make a real life analogy to pirating, so whether or not the objective definition of the words are different, they are still theoretically the same.



I don't see how laws have anything to do with stimulating the spread of culture? I don't think laws are the root of this problem. Making more laws or out date others will only create more problems, the problem is really more of a subjective one, where publishers and creators need to start finding ways to accommodate the customer rather than fighting the pirates and try to make up for lost money by ripping people off for would've-been free services.
We could also just say that "this is just the way it is" and just ignore that legitimate customers are getting a less than adequate treatment and people are downloading software without paying, but what good is that? But then again, there aren't many possibilities for change.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 13, 2008, 05:27:08 pm
If you look at it in a bigger picture: When downloading a product and violating copyrights, you're not paying for the product that a creator made, he will not receive money for his product, and he will thereby not be able to use the hypothetical property he would've bought with the money he should've gotten from the product you downloaded and did not pay for, so you are indirectly stealing. As long as there is a monetary system, pirating is stealing.

Besides, it's not like just because it's ones and zeros on a computer it's suddenly fine to "take" a product without paying the price it costs. Just because you export tracks from a CD to files on your computer doesn't mean the artist won't lose money when you send it to your peers online. You would use the word "steal" or "theft" if you had to make a real life analogy to pirating, so whether or not the objective definition of the words are different, they are still theoretically the same.

Just because you do directly or indirectly economical harm to someone does not mean it stealing. Example: I trash someones car. that is direct economical harm to someone yet is not stealing. I did not steal the car.

I could go on making comparisons but i wont.

I don't see how laws have anything to do with stimulating the spread of culture? I don't think laws are the root of this problem. Making more laws or out date others will only create more problems, the problem is really more of a subjective one, where publishers and creators need to start finding ways to accommodate the customer rather than fighting the pirates and try to make up for lost money by ripping people off for would've-been free services.
We could also just say that "this is just the way it is" and just ignore that legitimate customers are getting a less than adequate treatment and people are downloading software without paying, but what good is that? But then again, there aren't many possibilities for change.

So do you think we should remove copyright laws as the laws do not do what there intended to do? (spreed culture)

Or have i misunderstood you? Is there a other reason to keep copyright laws?
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 13, 2008, 05:53:47 pm
Just because you do directly or indirectly economical harm to someone does not mean it stealing. Example: I trash someones car. that is direct economical harm to someone yet is not stealing. I did not steal the car.

I could go on making comparisons but i wont.
When you pirate you end up with a product and someone looses money.
When you steal you end up with a product and someone looses money.
When you trash a car, it's just vandalism, 100% destructive for everyone.
The only reason why pirating and stealing are not synonyms is because of the grey area between digitalization and real life. Pirating is just duplicating, yes, but that's the only difference, isn't it? It's still, more or less, one product on the shelf at some store that's rendered pointless for everyone but the pirate, since they wont profit from it.


So do you think we should remove copyright laws as the laws do not do what there intended to do? (spreed culture)

Or have i misunderstood you? Is there a other reason to keep copyright laws?
No, we shouldn't remove the copyright laws just because a percentage of people chooses not to uphold them. We shouldn't mess with the laws. We need a revolution or we need look the other way. I don't think this is one of those things that'll change with a model, this is human behavior.

People will get stuff as easily as they can, the publishers should get inspired by the torrentsystem and create something similar so people can get their product easily and still pay, without limited installs and incomprehensible applications and support and some type of "bonus" instead of a massive headache if you have the legit version.

And people are greedy, they want money, so creators and artists should kick their publishers in the faces to remind them that they want to please their fans not take their money, greedy creators and artists should get boycotted, that means putting every musician currently with a hit on the radio out of a job.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 13, 2008, 06:13:09 pm
When you pirate you end up with a product and someone looses money.
When you steal you end up with a product and someone looses money.
When you trash a car, it's just vandalism, 100% destructive for everyone.
The only reason why pirating and stealing are not synonyms is because of the grey area between digitalization and real life. Pirating is just duplicating, yes, but that's the only difference, isn't it? It's still, more or less, one product on the shelf at some store that's rendered pointless for everyone but the pirate, since they wont profit from it.

Last time i check copyright existed before the digital era.

Also you can not know if you lose a sale due to piracy. The person might end up buying the product anyway or he would never have bought the product even if he could not pirate it.

Also there are other forms of Copyright violations like creating a derived work and such. Is this stealing?

But whatever. It seems i can not convince people is not stealing. But i still say its a crime. Also i do not wish to put any moral value on it. Though those that call it stealing often do so because they wish to put there morality on the issue without actually debating it.

No, we shouldn't remove the copyright laws just because a percentage of people chooses not to uphold them. We shouldn't mess with the laws. We need a revolution or we need look the other way. I don't think this is one of those things that'll change with a model, this is human behavior.

People will get stuff as easily as they can, the publishers should get inspired by the torrentsystem and create something similar so people can get their product easily and still pay, without limited installs and incomprehensible applications and support and some type of "bonus" instead of a massive headache if you have the legit version.

And people are greedy, they want money, so creators and artists should kick their publishers in the faces to remind them that they want to please their fans not take their money, greedy creators and artists should get boycotted, that means putting every musician currently with a hit on the radio out of a job.

So why do we have the laws we have today? To uphold the Status Quo? The laws have become progressively more restrictive when it comes to copyright so is not like we have the same laws we had back 10 years ago.

I guess what i am saying is that i do not understand you view on this matter but i have a feeling that you not 100% happy with them ether. I am of the view that that which does not work needs to be fixed.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 13, 2008, 06:49:00 pm
Last time i check copyright existed before the digital era.

Also you can not know if you lose a sale due to piracy. The person might end up buying the product anyway or he would never have bought the product even if he could not pirate it.

Also there are other forms of Copyright violations like creating a derived work and such. Is this stealing?

But whatever. It seems i can not convince people is not stealing. But i still say its a crime. Also i do not wish to put any moral value on it. Though those that call it stealing often do so because they wish to put there morality on the issue without actually debating it.
I think I said something I shouldn't have along the way aswell, I'm thinking more in terms of the act of pirating vs. the act of stealing, not really copyright violation in itself.

I would argue that it is very possible to lose a sale due to piracy, I know a lot of people who simply just download because it's free.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue for the morality of piracy, more the parallels between it and stealing. I've pirated myself so I'm not on a moral high ground or anything like that, I do support everything I should support though. I bought Spore legitimately to my regret.
So why do we have the laws we have today? To uphold the Status Quo? The laws have become progressively more restrictive when it comes to copyright so is not like we have the same laws we had back 10 years ago.

I guess what i am saying is that i do not understand you view on this matter but i have a feeling that you not 100% happy with them ether. I am of the view that that which does not work needs to be fixed.
Yeah, well, I'm a little alternative when it comes to politics and such, so I don't want to delve in to a discussion about that, it would just end in some discussion about bizarre theories and what not.
I don't believe making the laws progressively more strict is going to change anything though, pirate activity isn't decreasing, and it's not because of the law, it's because of the the general mentality of the individual, change should happen within the industry and within the culture, not by laws.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 13, 2008, 07:02:50 pm
But is it not a bad sign if so many ignore the law? The industry (publisher mainly) wish to have more control and stricter laws. That is also what we are seeing around the world.

But then again like you say. The law might not be the problem. But i still would like to know what you find a good balance.

I my self is of the view that something must be done. Stricter laws i think will just create more problems. And so many people do not agree with the laws therefor are willing to brake them. Even you your self have admitted to braking copyright law. I would like to see a new model to be at least tested. Maybe some sort of digital everyman's right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allemansratten) with some form of compensation system?

That reminds me of a interview i heard. Someone was proposing a compensation system based on the number of downloads a copyrighted work had. The interviewer asked if also porn should be covered. Apparently not all culture is equal to some. It is OK to pirate porn but not Hollywood films :P
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 13, 2008, 07:31:12 pm
When you pirate you end up with a product and someone looses money.
Not necessarily. If I pirated a video of My Little Pony for use in a "youtube poop" comedy video, it does not mean that if the pirated version wasn't available I would automatically go out and buy a My Little Pony DVD. Therefore whether I do or do not download the video has no bearing on the profits made, either way. As a farther fetched and more detached example, I could point out that by buying a used copy of a game from ebay (for a much cheaper price) also harms the earnings that businesses make, even if buying a used copy is legal. It is also possible to purchase a music CD, rip the music onto your computer, then lend that CD to a friend and never bother asking for it back. It's a form of illegal redistribution.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Moogie on December 13, 2008, 10:06:44 pm
This just seems the perfect place to post this video. Warning though, strong, strong, stroooong language. http://www.crunchyroll.com/media-407358/Game-Consoles-How-Anti-Piracy-Screws-over-People-who-Buy-PC-Games.html

But you know what... he's absolutely bang-on perfectly BEAUTIFULLY correct.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: eropS on December 13, 2008, 11:25:59 pm
When you pirate you end up with a product and someone looses money.
Not necessarily. If I pirated a video of My Little Pony for use in a "youtube poop" comedy video, it does not mean that if the pirated version wasn't available I would automatically go out and buy a My Little Pony DVD. Therefore whether I do or do not download the video has no bearing on the profits made, either way. As a farther fetched and more detached example, I could point out that by buying a used copy of a game from ebay (for a much cheaper price) also harms the earnings that businesses make, even if buying a used copy is legal. It is also possible to purchase a music CD, rip the music onto your computer, then lend that CD to a friend and never bother asking for it back. It's a form of illegal redistribution.

What? You still stole the disk, just because if you couldn't pirate it you wouldn't buy it anyway doesn't mean you still didn't STEAL THE DISC. The fact that's bugging me about you pro-piracy advocaters is that you all insist that it isnt the same as stealing. Even though it is.

Moogie, a free sample is just that, a sample. They don't give you an entire package of food to take home and try as long as you like, then decide after you've eaten all your hearts desire to buy the package or not.  You get to leaf through A magazine, you dont get the subscription for 2 months then decide whether or not its worth it. Yeah, in a CD store you get to listen to a SAMPLE of the CD, you dont get the entire CD to take home, burn, and give back then come back later to pay for it depending on if you liked it or not. You see where im going here?

When you pirate the game, you don't get a sample, a single magazine, or just 30 seconds of a song. You get the whole sh-bang, you get all the features, all the ideas, all the content, for as long as you'd like. You can play the game 7 times through and not have to give it back because you STOLE it. You don't 'sample the game' you play the entire thing! How is that even remotely the same as a food sample from a Costco or Sams Club? Here, I'll answer for you, its not.

So, why not try a game before you buy it? Because, your not 'trying it', your beating it, and those arent the same.

When you pirate, you are basically stealing a copy from a store, so Uro, I dont see any difference. You are sitting at your computer desk watching k/b's go across the screen instead of going into the store and directly taking the copy. Explain the difference, a sale lost is a sale lost is it not? All you are doing is skipping the middle man with a torrent.

Just because it is copyrighted and you 'don't think the copyright law right' doesn't give you an excuse to steal someone else's hard work. Copyrighted or not, someone put a price tag on that game, someone programmed it, and someone allowed its creation, and someone out there is expected to buy it. Do you think its right for Windows to  be Copyrighted? Im curious.

"You cannot know if you lost a sale due to piracy" - who cares? The fact is, the game was still illegally downloaded and a hypothetical sale was lost.

"I wasnt going to buy the game anyway" or "If the game wasn't up for pirating i wouldn't buy it so they didn't even lose a real sale" = So what, YOU STILL STOLE THE GAME, which equates to a sale lost, so that argument is null. Just because the  evil corporations didnt lose any money technically, doesn't excuse the fact you still pick pocketed their property.

Plus, even if you did like it, there is absolutely no reason for you to go out and buy the game, none, at all. Like you guys all say, "I'm not affecting it by taking away a copy from a digital source", so, explain, how are you "supporting them buy buying a copy".

Finally, pi⋅rate
   /ˈpaɪrət/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pahy-ruht] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, -rat⋅ed, -rat⋅ing.
–noun
1.    a person who robs or commits illegal violence at sea or on the shores of the sea.
–verb (used with object)
to commit piracy upon; plunder; rob.
to use or reproduce (a book, an invention, etc.) without authorization or legal right: to pirate hit records.
to take or entice away for one's own use: Our competitor is trying to pirate our best salesman.

steal
   /stil/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [steel] Show IPA Pronunciation ,
verb, stole, sto⋅len, steal⋅ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.


rob
   /rɒb/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rob] Show IPA Pronunciation
verb, robbed, rob⋅bing.
–verb (used with object)
to take something from (someone) by unlawful force or threat of violence; steal from.

So tell me, how is pirating not stealing? I'm officially interested.

lucky post 777



Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 14, 2008, 12:30:08 am
What? You still stole the disk
There wasnt even a physical object in the example to begin with, there was no loss at all.

Quote
The fact that's bugging me about you pro-piracy advocaters is that you all insist that it isnt the same as stealing. Even though it is.
The fact that's bugging me about you anti-piracy advocaters is that you all insist that it is the same as stealing. Even though it isn't.

Quote
Moogie, a free sample is just that, a sample. They don't give you an entire package of food to take home and try as long as you like, then decide after you've eaten all your hearts desire to buy the package or not.  You get to leaf through A magazine, you dont get the subscription for 2 months then decide whether or not its worth it. Yeah, in a CD store you get to listen to a SAMPLE of the CD, you dont get the entire CD to take home, burn, and give back then come back later to pay for it depending on if you liked it or not. You see where im going here?
Except for the fact that it is growingly common for them to resort to deliberately engineering the demo to make the final product seem better than it really is. You know, rather than just giving you a small slice of the actual full game. You dont get to read only the first three pages of a magazine, which gives you an index of exclusive stuff, reviews, competitions, and a promise of a free cheeseburger... then when you buy it and find only half the stuff they promised, some pages completely missing, and the others are unavailable for reading until 2 months later when they 'fix it'. Then have that happen randomly and too consistantly through the industry, then start wondering why people stopped purchasing it.

Quote
When you pirate, you are basically stealing a copy from a store, so Uro, I dont see any difference.
When you pirate, you are not reducing stock or turning a first hand copy into a second hand, lesser priced copy, nor preventing anyone from making that purchase, nor lowering the income of the store or the business if you honestly wouldnt have bought it outright.

Quote
Explain the difference
...how many more times?

Quote
Plus, even if you did like it, there is absolutely no reason for you to go out and buy the game, none, at all. Like you guys all say, "I'm not affecting it by taking away a copy from a digital source", so, explain, how are you "supporting them buy buying a copy".
Because 0 - 0 = 0.
But 0 + 30  = 30.

Quote
steal
   /stil/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [steel] Show IPA Pronunciation ,
verb, stole, sto⋅len, steal⋅ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.
With the entire reference to physical property, or to claim something as your own. I don't think pirates are trying to claim the things they download is their own work that belongs to them. Yes, you can use the word 'steal', and 'theft' to portray the act, but it is not entirely accurate when something is not being taken away, but copied. You chose to deliberately ignore the many previous remarks on this, so I am going to split hairs in return. If it isnt wrong to lend your friend a copy of a game indefinately, or to play music you bought at request of others, then as long as the person who hosts the pirating source aqquired their copy legally, it is no different. Oh-ho! You see that? I can disregard and twist things too! Really though, don't take that seriously. :P

Quote
rob
   /rɒb/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rob] Show IPA Pronunciation
verb, robbed, rob⋅bing.
–verb (used with object)
to take something from (someone) by unlawful force or threat of violence; steal from.
Because downloading digital media is a forceful threat, right? No wait...

Quote
So tell me, how is pirating not stealing? I'm officially interested.
Pro-tip : See previous posts. See previous quotes.
I wonder how many times it has to be repeated.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 14, 2008, 05:29:11 am
But is it not a bad sign if so many ignore the law? The industry (publisher mainly) wish to have more control and stricter laws. That is also what we are seeing around the world.

But then again like you say. The law might not be the problem. But i still would like to know what you find a good balance.

I my self is of the view that something must be done. Stricter laws i think will just create more problems. And so many people do not agree with the laws therefor are willing to brake them. Even you your self have admitted to braking copyright law. I would like to see a new model to be at least tested. Maybe some sort of digital everyman's right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allemansratten) with some form of compensation system?

That reminds me of a interview i heard. Someone was proposing a compensation system based on the number of downloads a copyrighted work had. The interviewer asked if also porn should be covered. Apparently not all culture is equal to some. It is OK to pirate porn but not Hollywood films :P
Actually that kinda sounds like a good idea.
So you have to pay a kind of monthly fee if you're a member of this online downloading service and then the money raised from that will each month be distributed between publishers and creators, the more their products have been downloaded, the bigger a percentage they will get of that money.
So greedy publishers wouldn't exist, since you can't get billions and billions of dollars, but only enough to keep your business going, that would also mean EA wouldn't have been able to buy Maxis out.
And then it would end up as the music industry, where the real income comes from shows and live performances, so game companies could host events and stuff like that to generate further income and do more for their customers.
When it comes to music I usually only buy CD's, not mp3's, beacuse you get the cover art and stuff like that, I like to have a hard evidence of the music I own, so in that way games that you'd buy in a store would have extra material so the companies would also generate money through that.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: munchkin5 on December 14, 2008, 06:41:20 am
  A system like that still doesn't solve the piracy problem, it just changes the sorce of a company's revenue, there will still be organisations that run illegal free sites, or take money and don't pay a dime to the companies themselves.

  The problem is distiniction between what people would and wouldn't of bought without the ability to pirate it, generally it doesn't seem a bad thing if someone pirates something they wouldn't of bought anyway, but considering it's possible to pirate anything there is no way the law can make a distinction for each indivudual case about wether the person pirating would of bought it or not. The law has to draw the line somewhere and the best place to draw it was no pirating, but becuase people still do it's up to them to make the moral choice, and i for one do pirate, but nothing i would of bought otherwise. For example the other day i got an old game out of the box, age of empires 2 only to find the disk is scratched and it won't install, i tryed t get a copy of that from bit torrent (which if i'm not mistaken is legal as long as you own the original which i did), that crashed my computer, so i went after a copy of AoE3, i found a download, i never did download it however becuase i simply started playing medieval 2 total war (which i did buy). But if it hadn't been for the fact that it was available to me free i still wouldn't of rushed out to the store to buy it. On the other hand, i am a fan of family guy so i was going to buy the new dvd, I know I can just go on familyguynow.com to watch it, (my freinds do), but i've waited and i'm buying it soon.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 14, 2008, 06:55:29 am
Well, it would solve it if you made sure every torrent site had to give up the numbers of downloaded content. And install a system that made people who download have to pay a monthly fee to download the torrents. Instead of trying to push the torrents out that a lot of people use, they should be inspired and build on to that system.
Or maybe shut down the major torrent sites and start a new one with this system, I think a lot of downloaders would be attracted to this option, if they could get their games as easy as before and still legally, and it would somehow seem like free games, since you're not directly paying for the games but just a monthly fee for using this system.
I know some people who used to download a lot of music illegally, but then they found this site where you could just download the tracks easily with one click directly from the site, you're credit card information is securely attached to your account, so the money is withdrawn automatically as you download. No downloading of applications like iTunes and all that, just one click on a site, I think that is what attracts people.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 14, 2008, 07:05:07 am
You know what really piss me off. The computer industry had problems with illegal copies before. The solution back then just as now was to included complex copy protection schemes. Well it turns out that these schemes just like today coursed more problems for the consumer. This lead to cracks being developed and in the long run piracy going up. The industry do not have that longterm memory.

It would be interested to know if some people switch to console (and if they keep on with piracy. form what what i have seen piracy is very common on consoles to.)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: munchkin5 on December 14, 2008, 08:34:34 am
Well, it would solve it if you made sure every torrent site had to give up the numbers of downloaded content. And install a system that made people who download have to pay a monthly fee to download the torrents. Instead of trying to push the torrents out that a lot of people use, they should be inspired and build on to that system.
Or maybe shut down the major torrent sites and start a new one with this system, I think a lot of downloaders would be attracted to this option, if they could get their games as easy as before and still legally, and it would somehow seem like free games, since you're not directly paying for the games but just a monthly fee for using this system.
I know some people who used to download a lot of music illegally, but then they found this site where you could just download the tracks easily with one click directly from the site, you're credit card information is securely attached to your account, so the money is withdrawn automatically as you download. No downloading of applications like iTunes and all that, just one click on a site, I think that is what attracts people.

The point is torrent sites already opperate outside of the law, so just telling them they have to shut down doesn't work. The people who run the torrent sites are pro-piracy and anti payment, so there not just going to go alongwith it. Also to be honest a monthly fee is more likely to put peolple off the site, ven more than just having to buy the game of steam or something. In the end people are still going to find a way to not have to pay anything and i'm fairly sure people would rather use limewire than give out credit card details and continue downloading for a fee, you don't get anything extra, but it still costs.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 14, 2008, 09:14:50 am
The point is torrent sites already opperate outside of the law, so just telling them they have to shut down doesn't work. The people who run the torrent sites are pro-piracy and anti payment, so there not just going to go alongwith it. Also to be honest a monthly fee is more likely to put peolple off the site, ven more than just having to buy the game of steam or something. In the end people are still going to find a way to not have to pay anything and i'm fairly sure people would rather use limewire than give out credit card details and continue downloading for a fee, you don't get anything extra, but it still costs.

You can't be sure unless you interview people. I would, without a doubt, take advantage of it if I had the option to download any movie or game I wanted, when I wanted, for a monthly fee, and not have to worry about breaking any laws or feeling bad that I'm not supporting the people I should.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: munchkin5 on December 14, 2008, 09:56:26 am
Even if half the people who already pirate did that it still wouldn't solve the pirating problem, becuase not everybody would do that, lots of people don't even worry about violating the piracy law anyway. Plus lots of people don't like the idea of montly fees, to them it's just another bill.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 14, 2008, 10:03:36 am
Even if half the people who already pirate did that it still wouldn't solve the pirating problem, becuase not everybody would do that, lots of people don't even worry about violating the piracy law anyway. Plus lots of people don't like the idea of montly fees, to them it's just another bill.
I half the people who pirate did that, it would be a very big step forward.
I'm sure it would help more than companies just putting all these anti piracy measures in their products, which in the end will only hurt the legitimate customers.
I think it's a bit harsh of you to just assume everybody's a bunch of immoral ignorants who would do anything to get out of paying for a product.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 14, 2008, 11:12:43 am
Actually the payment could be solved by having a tax on Internet connections or storage media. (Therefor any payment plan would be incorporated.)

There is already smiler schemes on storage media in many countries that goes to compensate legal copying.

Probably the best way to decided how the money form this tax is shared is by letting a trade organization handle it. We already have it for other forms of media.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gorman Conall on December 14, 2008, 11:53:51 am
.......

THE BLOODY GAME IS NOT FREE, ITS NOT FREE, ITS NOT FREE.

The game is not free

THE   GAME    IS    NOT   FREE

T  H  E  G  A  M  E  I  S  N  O  T  F  R  E  E

If you have a game that was not payed for when the game is not FREE its theft. Just because you don't have a physical copy means NOTHING.When you buy a game your NOT paying 60 bones for a shiny disk. YOUR PAYING FOR THE GAME THAT'S ON THE DISC THAT YOU DOWNLOADED FOR FREE. Guess what when i buy a game on direct download...I'm not even getting a disc. I'M GETTING THE VERY THING I WOULD HAVE GOT IF I PIRATED IT.

It does not matter what your moral standing of the issue is, The game is not free.

It does not matter if you  would've never bought it (which you don't actually know until AFTER you illegally play it) ITS NOT FREE

It does not matter if you uninstall it after. ITS NOT A DEMO ITS NOT FREE.

If you have something that was not payed for by you or somebody else when its not FREE you ether stole it or are using stolen merchandise.
 
Claiming its not theft is just deluding yourself in to some kind of self justification that your not committing as bad a crime as you actually are.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 14, 2008, 12:03:23 pm
Gorman Conall we know the copyright laws. Well at least i know the main parts of both Swedish and USA copyright laws and international agreements.

Also this is why i say is not stealing. But know this. Stealing is not the worst crime out there. Vandalism, Murder, Drunk Driving, Selling contaminated food, Whatever. All these things can be consider as bad or worse then stealing. Tough i must admit that is a bit subjective.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 14, 2008, 12:05:45 pm
.......

THE BLOODY GAME IS NOT FREE, ITS NOT FREE, ITS NOT FREE.

The game is not free

THE   GAME    IS    NOT   FREE

T  H  E  G  A  M  E  I  S  N  O  T  F  R  E  E

If you have a game that was not payed for when the game is not FREE its theft. Just because you don't have a physical copy means NOTHING.When you buy a game your NOT paying 60 bones for a shiny disk. YOUR PAYING FOR THE GAME THAT'S ON THE DISC THAT YOU DOWNLOADED FOR FREE. Guess what when i buy a game on direct download...I'm not even getting a disc. I'M GETTING THE VERY THING I WOULD HAVE GOT IF I PIRATED IT.

It does not matter what your moral standing of the issue is, The game is not free.

It does not matter if you  would've never bought it (which you don't actually know until AFTER you illegally play it) ITS NOT FREE

It does not matter if you uninstall it after. ITS NOT A DEMO ITS NOT FREE.

If you have something that was not payed for by you or somebody else when its not FREE you ether stole it or are using stolen merchandise.
 
Claiming its not theft is just deluding yourself in to some kind of self justification that your not committing as bad a crime as you actually are.
...
You know, repeating yourself and writing half your post in capslock is not going to make your argument seem more valid, to the contrary, it's going to discredit your argument and write you off as immature and aggressive.
I agree with view on the parallels of stealing and pirating, but nobody here is trying to justify pirating, at least not that I know of, we're simply discussing whether pirating is the same as stealing.
And when you buy and download software you're getting everything you would've got if you pirated it, plus a load of anti-piracy software which could mess up your software or at least make it unstable to run. I say this from experience.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 14, 2008, 12:33:17 pm
Actually, claiming it is theft, not piracy, is deluding yourself. There are differences in the distinctions, so why not just call it by its actual name?
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 14, 2008, 12:39:41 pm
I am not so keen on the term piracy ether as it got connections with the piracy done on the high seas. Sometime this also gives it a romantic notion because as we all know Pirates are cool. :P
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gorman Conall on December 14, 2008, 01:39:51 pm
Actually, claiming it is theft, not piracy, is deluding yourself. There are differences in the distinctions, so why not just call it by its actual name?

theft  (thft)
n.
1. The act or an instance of stealing; larceny.
2. Obsolete Something stolen.

steal  (stl)
v. stole (stl), sto·len (stln), steal·ing, steals
v.tr.
1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
2. To get or effect surreptitiously or artfully: steal a kiss; stole the ball from an opponent.
3. To move, carry, or place surreptitiously.
4. To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics.
5. Baseball To advance safely to (another base) during the delivery of a pitch, without the aid of a base hit, walk, passed ball, or wild pitch.
v.intr.
1. To commit theft.
2. To move, happen, or elapse stealthily or unobtrusively.
3. Baseball To steal a base.
n.
1. The act of stealing.
2. Slang A bargain.
3. Baseball A stolen base.

You guys are using copyright as a crutch. There are things that exist where a copy right can be infringed on without stealing anything. Software is not one of them.

You are taking something that is not free that costs money without paying anything. Its theft start calling it by its proper name. I really don't understand where theirs anything to debate. You are taking somebody else s property without permission (paying for it) the very definition of theft. And yes its their property as they created it and funded it.

Its not yours and you are illegally taking it. Theft

Also this is why i say is not stealing. But know this. Stealing is not the worst crime out there. Vandalism, Murder, Drunk Driving, Selling contaminated food, Whatever. All these things can be consider as bad or worse then stealing. Tough i must admit that is a bit subjective.

Never mentioned how sever stealing was compared to anything.

And when you buy and download software you're getting everything you would've got if you pirated it, plus a load of anti-piracy software which could mess up your software or at least make it unstable to run. I say this from experience.

Legally buy it then download it elsewhere.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gorman Conall on December 14, 2008, 02:20:11 pm
I'm sorry for the double post but i feel i have to say more on this.

Check out this guys take on it. Then check out the comments after to see all the pirates that admit its theft and believe if they keep doing it everything digital will become free.

http://www.devtopics.com/no-silly-piracy-is-theft/ (http://www.devtopics.com/no-silly-piracy-is-theft/)

Your intentions mean nothing. You saying * i would never of bought it anyway* Simply translates to i would of never bought it anyway because i DID NOT WANT TO PAY FOR IT so i pirated it. Its not you would never, Its you don't want to.

Just because you aren't stealing the original does not mean the copy doe snot hold value. If it didn't have any value you wouldn't of needed to steal it in the first place or even want too.

The very word piracy means to rob at sea. The word theft pretty much came from pirating.

Piracy now means digital theft instead of physical theft
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Moogie on December 14, 2008, 02:32:25 pm
I stopped caring about this conversation the second people started throwing around dictionary references to support their arguments. Nothing proves a beaten argument more swiftly than resorting to the stone cold exactness of Oxford's big book to try and 'prove' your point.

Not everything in this world is black & white. Sometimes rules exist more as a hinderance to the population than to protect it. Laws are man-made and fallible, subject to the ever-evolving nature of technology and society, and sometimes they can be too narrow of scope to serve a satisfactory purpose. I've heard some ridiculous things in this thread so far... someone arguing that piracy is theft, yet in the same breath, saying "stealing to feed your family is ok". Since when did laws become subjective? Can you only bend laws to suit your purpose when you're an anti-piracy advocate?

Some countries have the most ridiculous laws you could imagine, but they are real, and they carry punishments. But should you simply lay down and accept every ramming the State serves you without a hint of protest? What if the entire population just laid back and allowed the governments to F them in the A with whatever laws they could dream up? Would you just accept it if they introduced a new tax tomorrow so you'd have to pay extra every time you connect to the Internet because you're using up an IP address like realestate? Or would you say "that's BS, I pay for my connection already, I'm going to complain/petition/protest/moan until something changes"? Just because it's a law, that makes it correct? Of course it doesn't. Laws should be there to serve society, not f*** it over, but it's very easy for corrupt officials to push through laws that f*** the rest of us over.

Change requires resistance, because you cannot police a population that has grown tired of the BS and is refusing to accept it any longer. The game and music industries are feelings this very strongly right now. They have to move out of the darkages and stop thinking in terms of "I can sell X amount of plastic discs!". We're in the digital age now, you no longer need to spend copius amounts of money producing physical goods, you can cut your costs by a MASSIVE chunk, distribute your media online, for FAR less prices, which would satisfy customers and reduce piracy caused by the current system of buying unreasonably expensive plastic discs that cost them a FEW CENTS EACH to produce... and then smarter, less intrusive, more effective copy protection can be used which WOULDN'T harm legitimate customers, which would make them less likely to turn to piracy as well.

But no. Let's go on paying £30 for .03c worth of plastic filled with laggy crashy SecROM rootkits on a game that I've never tried before and have no idea if it plays well on my system and is probably full of bugs because game developers are forced by greedy publishers like EA to release games too early without sufficient testing because all they care about is profiting 300% per purchase while gullible fools like you continue to stuff money in their fat pockets and then wonder why everyone else is pirating it.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 14, 2008, 02:43:38 pm
And when you buy and download software you're getting everything you would've got if you pirated it, plus a load of anti-piracy software which could mess up your software or at least make it unstable to run. I say this from experience.

Legally buy it then download it elsewhere.

Never said I didn't. Just making an irrelevant point.

Some countries have the most ridiculous laws you could imagine, but they are real, and they carry punishments. But should you simply lay down and accept every ramming the State serves you without a hint of protest? What if the entire population just laid back and allowed the governments to F them in the A with whatever laws they could dream up?
Hehe, as ironic as it is, F'in someone in the A is illegal in some states and countries.
Seriously though, you should always question authority, because they are still just humanbeings, not some kind of god.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gorman Conall on December 14, 2008, 02:53:10 pm
I stopped caring about this conversation the second people started throwing around dictionary references to support their arguments. Nothing proves a beaten argument more swiftly than resorting to the stone cold exactness of Oxford's big book to try and 'prove' your point.

Well when people start talking about its proper terms then i would say its okay to show the proper terms.

Not everything in this world is black & white. Sometimes rules exist more as a hinderance to the population than to protect it. Laws are man-made and fallible, subject to the ever-evolving nature of technology and society, and sometimes they can be too narrow of scope to serve a satisfactory purpose

So you disagree with the law?. Most criminals do and so do young immature idiot teenagers and that's why they sit in jail for them. Disagree all you want it does not change the nature of the crime or the fact that as long as you live in a nation with those laws you are to follow them or pay the price.

I've heard some ridiculous things in this thread so far... someone arguing that piracy is theft, yet in the same breath, saying "stealing to feed your family is ok". Since when did laws become subjective? Can you only bend laws to suit your purpose when you're an anti-piracy advocate?

Laws aren't subjective and i never said it was okay. I said you could at least be justified in stealing food for your starving family. You aren't justified stealing a game for your own entertainment purposes because you didn't want to spend your money on it.

Some countries have the most ridiculous laws you could imagine, but they are real, and they carry punishments. But should you simply lay down and accept every ramming the State serves you without a hint of protest? What if the entire population just laid back and allowed the governments to F them in the A with whatever laws they could dream up? Would you just accept it if they introduced a new tax tomorrow so you'd have to pay extra every time you connect to the Internet because you're using up an IP address like realestate? Or would you say "that's BS, I pay for my connection already, I'm going to complain/petition/protest/moan until something changes"? Just because it's a law, that makes it correct? Of course it doesn't. Laws should be there to serve society, not f*** it over, but it's very easy for corrupt officials to push through laws that f*** the rest of us over.

The law we are discussing is not insane or ridiculous. Its simple the law is to prevent people from taking things that don't belong to them when a company puts years of blood sweat and tears and load of funding in to it . I'm sorry you feel that they should work for free for you but the real world does not work that way. You should try joining it sometime.

Change requires resistance, because you cannot police a population that has grown tired of the BS and is refusing to accept it any longer. The game and music industries are feelings this very strongly right now. They have to move out of the darkages and stop thinking in terms of "I can sell X amount of plastic discs!". We're in the digital age now, you no longer need to spend copius amounts of money producing physical goods, you can cut your costs by a MASSIVE chunk, distribute your media online, for FAR less prices, which would satisfy customers and reduce piracy caused by the current system of buying unreasonably expensive plastic discs that cost them a FEW CENTS EACH to produce... and then smarter, less intrusive, more effective copy protection can be used which WOULDN'T harm legitimate customers, which would make them less likely to turn to piracy as well.

The change your trying to make is MAN I DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR THAT GIMME GIMME GIMME. Grow up. It does not need changing, Pay for what you want and if you can't afford it then go without. This stuff is a luxury not something you need to survive. They can charge what ever they want to as they work to create it.

But no. Let's go on paying £30 for .03c worth of plastic filled with laggy crashy SecROM rootkits on a game that I've never tried before and have no idea if it plays well on my system and is probably full of bugs because game developers are forced by greedy publishers like EA to release games too early without sufficient testing because all they care about is profiting 300% per purchase while gullible fools like you continue to stuff money in their fat pockets and then wonder why everyone else is pirating it.

Then ether research it before hand or go without it. Don't play it at all simple as that, You have no right to steal it.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 14, 2008, 05:37:57 pm
OK. Lets go what USA the laws says about the issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_(1985) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_(1985))

So even the Supreme Court of the United States do not equal it to stealing. (And that is pretty much the highest authority you can get on the issue. At least in USA)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gorman Conall on December 14, 2008, 05:40:03 pm
Theres nothing on that wiki page?. Like nothing at all

Quote
Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Null on December 14, 2008, 05:42:58 pm
close the parenthesis at the end in the bar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_(1985)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 14, 2008, 05:58:53 pm
I fixed it. Look it up now.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: munchkin5 on December 15, 2008, 08:34:39 am
Gorman, i read youir dictionary entry, did you even read that?, it had nothing to do with piracy in it.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 15, 2008, 10:03:10 am
Gorman, i read youir dictionary entry, did you even read that?, it had nothing to do with piracy in it.
A copy of a copyrighted work is what you'd get if you pirated something?
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Protoavis on December 20, 2008, 01:16:42 am
Your intentions mean nothing. You saying * i would never of bought it anyway* Simply translates to i would of never bought it anyway because i DID NOT WANT TO PAY FOR IT so i pirated it. Its not you would never, Its you don't want to.


One part of that argument you've glossed over is it often only applies to poor quality games or games that aren't catered to the target audience.  Truely great products are more often met with actual purchases. If anything it's more a statement on the medicority of products and the general unwillingness of the population to see the emperors new clothes.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: AlfredO on December 20, 2008, 03:14:56 am
*worlds smallest violin* I paid for the game and didn't get one of its main services because their IT department was too dumb to make a simple plan for their database. Not to mention the game was quite far from what they advertised it to be. They decide to slowly drain our wallets for products and gameplay that, in my opinion, should have launched with the game.

So they take a deserved hit in the pocket. EA is one of the worst companies on earth and they deserve to go down for it. They brought it on themselves anyway. They can't be nice to their customers, they have to treat us all like we're criminals, and they don't care how much money they lose because they're clinging too tightly to gestapo tactics.

Hopefully this happens to The Sims 3 and any other franchise who decides to screw their fans over.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: MisterBibs on December 20, 2008, 08:52:12 pm
Quote
Hopefully this happens to The Sims 3 and any other franchise who decides to screw their fans over.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111elevenhundredandelevenoneone

EA's "screwing over of fans" is nerd rage, especially with Sims 3. For everyone one person who doesn't buy it, 10 will.

Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 21, 2008, 02:26:51 am
Oh hai, you must be new here.
Stop trolling. Thanks.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 21, 2008, 03:46:07 am
I'm sorry for the double post but i feel i have to say more on this.

Check out this guys take on it. Then check out the comments after to see all the pirates that admit its theft and believe if they keep doing it everything digital will become free.

http://www.devtopics.com/no-silly-piracy-is-theft/ (http://www.devtopics.com/no-silly-piracy-is-theft/)

Your intentions mean nothing. You saying * i would never of bought it anyway* Simply translates to i would of never bought it anyway because i DID NOT WANT TO PAY FOR IT so i pirated it. Its not you would never, Its you don't want to.

Just because you aren't stealing the original does not mean the copy doe snot hold value. If it didn't have any value you wouldn't of needed to steal it in the first place or even want too.

The very word piracy means to rob at sea. The word theft pretty much came from pirating.

Piracy now means digital theft instead of physical theft

Sometimes it's not the I DID NOT WANT TO PAY FOR IT but more the I CURRENTLY DON'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT or I JUST WANNA TRY IT FOR A FEW DAYS. Seriously, if I pirate a game and like it then I buy it, sure the company gets the money later but they still get it. If I pirate the game and delete it 3 days after because it sucks it makes no difference at all because that is the equivalent of a friend who owns the game letting me borrow it for a few days to try it off.

So basically:

I like it -> I buy it.
I don't like it -> I delete it.

By the way, in most places the illegal part is not downloading the stuff, it's distributing it. So the ones who are actually breaking the law are the ones who put the torrents, etc up and running on the internet and those who seed them.

Also, make sure the dictionary references you're using are from a free online dictionary otherwise you could be accused of stealing it  ;D
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 21, 2008, 08:09:11 am
Torrents do not work that way. Because torrents are pretty much just a link (And do not really contain copyrighted information in it self) is what makes it so hard to close down some torrent sites like Pirate Bay. (In Sweden is not illegal to link to media. It is illegal to directly distribute however.)

In USA you however have to watch out if you running a torrent site. Linking (or just pointing out) where you can get illegal copies is illegal.

Most those that use torrents do also share. Very few do not and many clients have to function to block those that only leach. So if you do use a torrent containing copyrighted martial you are likely to brake copyright law.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: MisterBibs on December 21, 2008, 09:53:08 am
Oh hai, you must be new here.
Stop trolling. Thanks.

The hope that this will happen to the Sims 3 and other franchises that "**** over their fans" is trolling, since it makes anyone with more than three brain cells angry for its sheer silliness.

Because 1.7 million copies of Spore were pirated, DRM will get worse.

Quote
I CURRENTLY DON'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT

Then wait until you have the funds to pay for it.

Quote
I JUST WANNA TRY IT FOR A FEW DAYS.

Then pay to try it.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 21, 2008, 10:32:18 am
Or one can just brake the law >_>
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 21, 2008, 01:20:42 pm
Oh hai, you must be new here.
Stop trolling. Thanks.

The hope that this will happen to the Sims 3 and other franchises that "**** over their fans" is trolling, since it makes anyone with more than three brain cells angry for its sheer silliness.

Because 1.7 million copies of Spore were pirated, DRM will get worse.

Quote
I CURRENTLY DON'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT

Then wait until you have the funds to pay for it.

Quote
I JUST WANNA TRY IT FOR A FEW DAYS.

Then pay to try it.

Yeah, not everyone has a place where they can rent games to try, in fact renting games itself is stupid, if I wanna pay to try it then I'll just friggin' buy it... Some games nowadays don't even have demos anymore.

And most of those "pirated" copies of Spore don't count because the people who downloaded them also bought the game.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Jaleho on December 21, 2008, 08:18:55 pm
Oh hai, you must be new here.
Stop trolling. Thanks.

The hope that this will happen to the Sims 3 and other franchises that "**** over their fans" is trolling, since it makes anyone with more than three brain cells angry for its sheer silliness.

Because 1.7 million copies of Spore were pirated, DRM will get worse.

Quote
I CURRENTLY DON'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT

Then wait until you have the funds to pay for it.

Quote
I JUST WANNA TRY IT FOR A FEW DAYS.

Then pay to try it.

If you know of a service where you can pay to play the full version of a PC game for a limited amount of time for a limited fee, I'd love to know about it. You can rent console games, not so much with PC software (because they can't prove you uninstalled it, or made copies). Some companies do offer demos, but if the demo is not representative of the rest of the game, it's kind of a rip-off... unless (in Spore's case) the money spent on the demo is better than the money spent on the full game. CC was the only part of Spore worth paying for.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Protoavis on December 21, 2008, 11:36:46 pm
CC was the only part of Spore worth paying for.

Which I got for free, hurray for living in Australia where it was handed out free with the newspaper :D :D :D
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 22, 2008, 07:51:56 am
I like the other editors to.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Gorman Conall on December 22, 2008, 06:57:23 pm
If you can't rent it or demo it then type in some keywords, Bring up some reviews, Look for some videos. Do a little research. Doing all that will tell you whether its worth it to buy or not.

And actually yes their are a few sites that let you download the full game and play it for an hour, After that you have to buy it if you want to keep playing it. I actually bought Evil genius from a site like that.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 22, 2008, 08:15:17 pm
Because 1.7 million copies of Spore were pirated, DRM will get worse.
And when the DRM gets worse, the percentage of pirated copies will rise further.
Did the DRM prevent piracy at all? No.
Did the DRM cause a rise in piracy? Yes.
Did the DRM inconvenience legal owners? Yes.
Was all of this easily predictable prior to the DRM implementation? Yes.
They are presented with a simple choice : Adjust tactics, or face a growing divide between actual sales and pirated copies.

So yes, the decision-makers essentially chose to punish their fans whilst shooting themselves in the foot. The reason I called you a troll, was because that entire post I referenced was nothing but blatant flamebait. I know people get a bit rabid on the anti-EA subject, and the amount of frothing against Spore in general makes even my eyes roll, but that doesn't weaken the point at hand.

If you can't rent it or demo it then type in some keywords, Bring up some reviews, Look for some videos. Do a little research. Doing all that will tell you whether its worth it to buy or not.
Doing all that didn't work for The Movies. Or Gears of War. Or Jade Empire. Or Tekken 4. Or Prey. Or Pariah. Or Farcry. Or Fable. Despite the 'tastes may vary' side of it, reviews tend to have that "default 7.0" thing going on, some tend to suspiciously find in favour of large companies regardless of the game in question, and videos can be very deceptive. Taking Spore for example, the reviews could convince you that it is absolutely terrible, or really good. The 'demo' being the creature creator is far from representative of the final game, the videos barely skim the surface, the rabid for/against opinions would only serve to confuse, and once again you find yourself at the same position : At a gambling table with barely a tip.

A game rental service for the PC would be a step towards preventing piracy. I would say a big step, but given it would require downloads in the scale of gigs, people would be tempted to crack it after the rental period is up (after the burned bandwidth/time). A rental service for the PC would end up being much like Steam, with a way to deactivate games automatically when the rental period is up, but clients can be cracked too, and other programs/patches can be used to counter deactivation.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: MisterBibs on December 23, 2008, 10:53:25 am
Quote
Did the DRM prevent piracy at all? No.
Did the DRM cause a rise in piracy? Yes.
Did the DRM inconvenience legal owners? Yes.
Was all of this easily predictable prior to the DRM implementation? Yes.
They are presented with a simple choice : Adjust tactics, or face a growing divide between actual sales and pirated copies.

DRM didn't cause a rise in piracy. Piracy causes DRM. Gamers who want publishers to not treat them like criminals and pirates, and then act like crminals and pirates, cause DRM to increase. And because gamers have shown with Spore that they aren't to be trusted, we'll get harder DRM.

DRM didn't inconvenience the majority of legal owners. Nerds with an axe to grind against EA and DRM? Oh, it inconvenienced them.

You state "adjust tactics". What is the tactic you believe they should use? Cite historical examples (doesn't have to be PC related) with concrete evidence that the tactics you'll cite consistently and repeatedly reduce piracy of a product.

Quote
the amount of frothing against Spore in general makes even my eyes roll, but that doesn't weaken the point at hand.

Quite untrue. The frothing against Spore and DRM undermines their beliefs to the point that I'm more likely to believe in the Illuminati than believe what they say. Trust me, if I could reach through the internet and pat the heads (hair-mussing-up optional) to everyone I hear whining about DRM, I would. But I can't.

Quote
At a gambling table with barely a tip.

Like someone else said, Fool Me Once, Shame On You, Fool Me Twice, Shame On Me. If you got "burned" by a product for whatever reason, you don't buy the next one.

Of course, this does show the fundamental issue: Most people are still buying the products you refuse to. I keep reading from some people that they think Spore's piracy is going to be the one that tells publishers to knock it off. Just like the DRM on the Sims expansions that froze the game if you were using a pirated copy. Just like Titan Quest crashing early in the game if you have a pirated copy. I imagine whatever DRM Sims 3 has will have people going "hopefully THIS GAME will be the one that tells publishers to knock it off"!.

The only way to get publishers to stop using such strict DRM is to prove, as a collective group, that we're not going to download games we haven't paid for. But we won't, because people who do it try very hard to justify pirating. Either its a Robin-Hood-esque Stealing-From-The-Rich, Everest-Style Because-Its-There, or simple "I don't want to spend money."

Quote
A game rental service for the PC would be a step towards preventing piracy. I would say a big step, but given it would require downloads in the scale of gigs, people would be tempted to crack it after the rental period is up

Well, that's one of your tactics inevitably down the drain. One only needs to look at any sort of cracks/keygen site to see that anything locked by a password or something is inevitably - and often, quickly - bypassed.

Do you have another option? Again, historical proof of consistent and repeatable piracy reduction.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Arachoid on December 23, 2008, 12:03:26 pm
You state "adjust tactics". What is the tactic you believe they should use? Cite historical examples (doesn't have to be PC related) with concrete evidence that the tactics you'll cite consistently and repeatedly reduce piracy of a product.

What historical examples? The rumrunners or moonshiners? This is a new problem, piracy in the millions over the Internet, and DRM is the misguided attempt at solving it.

I don't say that because of any consumer rights-based beliefs or anything, but because developing this crappy DRM costs money, and I love money.

But how, historically, has it been successful at all? It has never prevented games or music from being pirated, it just annoys legitimate users and maybe stops newbie pirates who try to remove it themselves (but later go download from a torrent or something).

And you may count me among the scores of those who pirated Spore and then uninstalled it after buying Spore legitimately just to bolster the numbers.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 23, 2008, 12:20:50 pm
DRM didn't cause a rise in piracy.
Oh no? I guess all those people threatening to pirate it instead of buy it because of the DRM must have just had a sudden unannounced change of mind then? Its not like there was an uproar about it. Oh wait...

Quote
Piracy causes DRM.
And a too-restrictive DRM causes piracy.

Quote
Gamers who want publishers to not treat them like criminals and pirates, and then act like crminals and pirates, cause DRM to increase. And because gamers have shown with Spore that they aren't to be trusted, we'll get harder DRM.
...and as the DRM gets more draconian, the legal sales will be further overshadowed by the number of pirated copies.

Quote
You state "adjust tactics". What is the tactic you believe they should use? Cite historical examples (doesn't have to be PC related) with concrete evidence that the tactics you'll cite consistently and repeatedly reduce piracy of a product.
Uhm, no. I don't have to cite examples of alternatives, to affirm the fact that the DRM was responsible for an increase in piracy. It's a reasonable assertion given the reaction of the fanbase and general PC gamer crowds, when the DRM was announced. As for concrete evidence? You expect me to pull undeniably solid evidence out of my ass. After all, forumgoers keep a full stock of sources that are held by law to tell the truth, right? Even if I was in the administration of large businesses with well-grounded sources to show you, there is little that cannot be disputed. Still, for the sake of arguement, compare Oblivion with its lack of anti-piracy measures, compared to Bioshock, with its install-limiter. You can always expect a certain level of piracy regardless of additional factors, a sort of 'casual baseline', but when you start making the prospect of buying a copy unappealing, people start turning to alternatives. Those sales start converting to pirated downloads. Its not a matter of preventing pirates, its a matter of preventing customers wanting to pirate. Time and time again, it has been shown that you simply can't stop pirates. It takes ten times longer to build a wall than to tear it down. You release a game, and no matter what you do, it is ready to be pirated within days.

It comes down to basic business sense. Do you use a harsher DRM to extend the uncracked time by 4 hours, whilst causing a substantial amount of customers to pirating it, put off by the thought of the limitations (whether they turn out to be as bad as they sounded or not)? Or do you accept that it is going to get pirated regardless of what measures you put in place, and offset the piracy damage, by ensuring you don't drive away that extra slice of your willing customers?

Quote
Quote
At a gambling table with barely a tip.
Like someone else said, Fool Me Once, Shame On You, Fool Me Twice, Shame On Me. If you got "burned" by a product for whatever reason, you don't buy the next one.
Thats a great idea... if only every game was part of a running series, eh? If you go by genre, you're only going to get burned four or five times before you stop buying games altogether. Or you could just... y'know... do the entire demo/borrow/piracy thing to test it out, and buy informed. Some people simply can't afford to play the guessing game for more than a years worth of purchases.

Quote
The only way to get publishers to stop using such strict DRM is to prove, as a collective group, that we're not going to download games we haven't paid for. But we won't, because people who do it try very hard to justify pirating. Either its a Robin-Hood-esque Stealing-From-The-Rich, Everest-Style Because-Its-There, or simple "I don't want to spend money."
I disagree, I think the correlation between a DRMs invasiveness/strictness over a legal owner, and pirated copies, is another way to get publishers to reconsider. You can't expect people to act as a collective group, simply because they aren't. Whilst they are all customers (or potential customers/pirates), they are also spread globally, with no connection to each other. You could say that the best way to stop publishers creating rehashed garbage is simply to stop buying the rehashed garbage, but it doesn't matter how idealistic you do or do not buy, there will be plenty of people willing to fork over money for whatever polished turd gets vomited out next. Saying the only way to go about this is for everyone to stop pirating, is like saying the only way to stop the laws getting tighter and tighter, is for every civilian to stop breaking the law. If there is something wrong with the method at hand, it should be looked into, regardless of whether the need for a measure still exists. Otherwise its like resolutely trying to hammer a square peg through a circular hole, and refusing to rethink it because the hole still needs to be plugged. The only unified body in this, is the developer, the owner of the software. The only real changes in this, will come from their actions/reactions. Piracy will always exist, and not as an 'if'. They can either grasp the situation and try to figure out a better way forwards, or they can make a gamble with a stronger DRM and risk increasing the amount of pirated copies up further.

Quote
Do you have another option? Again, historical proof of consistent and repeatable piracy reduction.
Yes, stop driving your customer base away would be a fine start to curb the edge of it. Customer support isn't too much to ask, either, in place of an automated, context-based response. Being able to play the game without worrying about activations, install amounts, online launchers and non-optional additionals (like starforce, etc), is a real plus. Not being forced to uninstall other programs to make it work. They 'historically' make people less inclined to pirate it instead of buy it.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 23, 2008, 01:19:59 pm
If you can't rent it or demo it then type in some keywords, Bring up some reviews, Look for some videos. Do a little research. Doing all that will tell you whether its worth it to buy or not.

And actually yes their are a few sites that let you download the full game and play it for an hour, After that you have to buy it if you want to keep playing it. I actually bought Evil genius from a site like that.

How is that any different from what I do? If I don't like the game I delete it so I never get to play it more than an hour, if I do like it and play through it I end up buying it just to have all the cool stuff that the legal version provides so either way it's the same thing.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Jaleho on December 23, 2008, 02:01:43 pm
If you can't rent it or demo it then type in some keywords, Bring up some reviews, Look for some videos. Do a little research. Doing all that will tell you whether its worth it to buy or not.

And actually yes their are a few sites that let you download the full game and play it for an hour, After that you have to buy it if you want to keep playing it. I actually bought Evil genius from a site like that.

How is that any different from what I do? If I don't like the game I delete it so I never get to play it more than an hour, if I do like it and play through it I end up buying it just to have all the cool stuff that the legal version provides so either way it's the same thing.

Exactly. I'll admit it right here -- I purchased Spore, but I pirated "Cute and Creepy". I wanted to see whether having that pack changed how *I* play, and no video or review could possibly tell me that.

Do you want to know what happened the second I installed C&C? I lost the ability to upload any of my creations to Sporepedia, whether they used the pack or not, whether they were creature or building or otherwise. Now considering how big of the game is sharing creations (since it certainly isn't "achieve this goal for the 50th time") I have been limited in what I can do with the game. I'm assuming the first person to use the cracked serial is allowed to upload creations. Anyone else the server says "wait, this has already been used. No access for you, pirate!". But the software itself has no clue whether it's been registered before or not.

So I now have three choices:
1. Keep playing the crippled version of Spore. Not as fun, because I can't show off my new Cute and Creepy creations.
2. Delete Spore and reinstall WITHOUT C&C. I'm back to making things without the new parts which I didn't pay for.
3. Delete and reinstall with a PURCHASED version of C&C. Then if I still can't upload creations, I complain to EA.

I don't play a lot of MMORPGs, but do they have problems with pirated accounts? I'm sure I can find a copy of the boxed game on a torrent, but I can't play the game without an account, right? And you have to pay to play. So unless you use a stolen credit card or hack someone else's account, that pirated game is useless.

Why not do something similar to Spore? yes, I'm advocating a monthly fee -- but an OPTIONAL monthly fee. Like the game as is? Congrats, play it to the end of time. Want all the new add-ons they're producing? Get an account for a monthly fee, and you have to have internet access to play it.

The problem is this "all or nothing" business model. Or gameplay, too. Why is it so hard to make a game that casual, hard-core, broadband AND internet-less people can all play? When did "this feature is optional" go out of style, and the "forcing of everyone who plays a game to play the same way" come about? Give people different experiences based on what they want to pay and how they want to play, just don't force out everyone who doesn't fit one model.

EA would kill two birds with one stone if they just didn't make Maxis design SOME kind of MMO element to Spore. Not as a replacement for the current system, but as an addition everyone would want to be a part of. Pirated copies wouldn't be allowed in, those who don't like it don't have to come in, and the rest of us would get awesome MMO gameplay and be forced to pay for it. How is that bad?
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Protoavis on December 23, 2008, 02:22:05 pm

I don't play a lot of MMORPGs, but do they have problems with pirated accounts? I'm sure I can find a copy of the boxed game on a torrent, but I can't play the game without an account, right? And you have to pay to play. So unless you use a stolen credit card or hack someone else's account, that pirated game is useless.


Private servers.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Jaleho on December 23, 2008, 02:32:25 pm

I don't play a lot of MMORPGs, but do they have problems with pirated accounts? I'm sure I can find a copy of the boxed game on a torrent, but I can't play the game without an account, right? And you have to pay to play. So unless you use a stolen credit card or hack someone else's account, that pirated game is useless.


Private servers.

Where do they get the software that runs on the private servers? Isn't there a central program you need that you can't just get from the box you buy?
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 23, 2008, 03:19:23 pm
Private severs are a bit of a gray area form what i understand. Normally the software is build on revers engineering the code. Not using the original sever program. And most nations allow people to reverse engineer anything. But on top of that we have the EULA which often states that you are not allowed to reverse engineer the sever code. But is not totally unity in how binding the EULA is. And no top of that one can sidestep it easily in this case. It is a bit harder to sidestep the fact that the EULA might not allow you to play the game on private severs however. Still it goes back to how binding EULA is and what consequences it would have if you broke against it.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 23, 2008, 04:17:29 pm
Yeah, private servers are programs created by reverse engineering the game and intercepting packets being sent through the connection, figuring out what they do and using that in the server program. I'm still waiting for City of Heroes private servers though :(
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 23, 2008, 04:23:24 pm
Also why the EULA even if it is considered binding would not protect against it. Package sniffing in you own network is legal. So in theory you can package sniff someone else messages without braking the law. (There by sidestepping the issue.)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: MisterBibs on December 23, 2008, 10:31:05 pm
Okay, point-by-point in order to actually get some bloody answers. God, I feel like Dan Bernstein talking to meatball Bears fans...

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And a too-restrictive DRM causes piracy......and as the DRM gets more draconian, the legal sales will be further overshadowed by the number of pirated copies.

Explain why World of Goo, with no DRM, has an over 90% piracy rate.

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Uhm, no. I don't have to cite examples of alternatives

Sure you do, if you want something other than DRM in your games.

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to affirm the fact that the DRM was responsible for an increase in piracy

Prove it. Or retract your statement.

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It's a reasonable assertion given the reaction of the fanbase and general PC gamer crowds, when the DRM was announced.

Reasonable assertions have undeniable facts behind them.

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As for concrete evidence? You expect me to pull undeniably solid evidence out of my ass. After all, forumgoers keep a full stock of sources that are held by law to tell the truth, right?

Exactly - they don't. If a publisher isn't going to listen to a bunch of forum-goers without sources and proof of their assertions, why should I? Your and my little spat, it doesn't matter to anyone. What publishers listen to is facts, and undeniable proofs.

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Still, for the sake of arguement, compare Oblivion with its lack of anti-piracy measures, compared to Bioshock, with its install-limiter.

I can't find NPD numbers for the two of them. If you're going to talk about them, show me NPD numbers. Show me install limits in Bioshock caused less sales.

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You release a game, and no matter what you do, it is ready to be pirated within days.

And you suggest that some sort of 'game rental' system would prevent piracy? Which is it? Either people are all-too-willing to pirate, or they will look for alternatives to piracy.

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Do you use a harsher DRM to extend the uncracked time by 4 hours, whilst causing a substantial amount of customers to pirating it, put off by the thought of the limitations (whether they turn out to be as bad as they sounded or not)?

Do you have any proof that Spore's DRM caused people to turn away from the game?

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Or do you accept that it is going to get pirated regardless of what measures you put in place, and offset the piracy damage, by ensuring you don't drive away that extra slice of your willing customers?

Do you lock the doors to your house? Lock your car when you're not in it? hey, odds are you'll be robbed, why bother locking them?

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Thats a great idea... if only every game was part of a running series, eh?

Strawman. We're talking about DRM, not genre or artistic things. We're talking about DRM. Buy a game. Do you not like the DRM on it? Don't buy games from that publisher from then on in.

Your problem is that DRM-heavy games still sell, and there's no practical outrage outside of some web forums.

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I think the correlation between a DRMs invasiveness/strictness over a legal owner, and pirated copies, is another way to get publishers to reconsider.

You think? You want publishers who are plunking down a lot of dosh to decide things based on what you think? Again, where is your proof?

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You could say that the best way to stop publishers creating rehashed garbage is simply to stop buying the rehashed garbage, but it doesn't matter how idealistic you do or do not buy, there will be plenty of people willing to fork over money for whatever polished turd gets vomited out next.

And that is YOUR problem! As long as there are plenty of people willing to fork over money for the thing you dislike (in thise case, DRM), your opinion is statistically insignificant. You want DRM to be lessened, you have to make it plainly obvious to publishers that DRM is causing a major loss in sales. Something forum-goers have yet been able to do. They aren't convinced by it, and I'm not either.

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Saying the only way to go about this is for everyone to stop pirating, is like saying the only way to stop the laws getting tighter and tighter, is for every civilian to stop breaking the law.

Not everyone - just a statistically significant amount.

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They can either grasp the situation and try to figure out a better way forwards, or they can make a gamble with a stronger DRM and risk increasing the amount of pirated copies up further.

WHAT ARE THESE BETTER WAYS FORWARD?!

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Customer support isn't too much to ask, either, in place of an automated, context-based response.

So customer support will make people less likely to pirate? Do you have any evidence of this?

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Being able to play the game without worrying about activations, install amounts, online launchers and non-optional additionals (like starforce, etc),

Keep the game installed, have a decent internet connection, and don't worry about things that don't actually do anything bad.

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Not being forced to uninstall other programs to make it work.

Don't use stuff that only an idiot uses for anything other than piracy.

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They 'historically' make people less inclined to pirate it instead of buy it.

Show me proof of this, as these things have not stopped significant piracy. It's not the best option. Give publishers one that works.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Jaleho on December 23, 2008, 10:38:41 pm
Okay, point-by-point in order to actually get some bloody answers. God, I feel like Dan Bernstein talking to meatball Bears fans...

Do you by chance work in the software industry? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the DRM thing, but I generally seem to hear an argument this strong from someone who's income is directly affected by piracy.

Just curious.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 24, 2008, 12:35:08 am
MisterBibs, it's funny you ask someone to prove their statement or to retract it while all you've done is made similar opposing arguments with no proof either :-\
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Lippy on December 24, 2008, 06:48:00 am
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You want DRM to be lessened, you have to make it plainly obvious to publishers that DRM is causing a major loss in sales. Something forum-goers have yet been able to do.

While the DRM is still in the game, the forum goers most definitely pushed EA into lessening the pain caused to paying customers by the DRM.  Getting two more activations and the revocation tool are both directly related to the outcry from paying customers.  While it is far from ideal, it is definitely less of a problem than the original version.  Before SecuROM even started selling this version of the DRM, they should have built into it automatic revocation at the time of uninstall, as well as a tool to deactivate the game at any time.  But the deactivation tool would bring the casual Spore user to say, "What's this about activations and deactivations?"  SecuROM is supposed to be invisible.  EA would rather users not even know about it until it stung them, "YOU PIRATE!" 

But people do know about it.  User reviews are abysmal due primarily to the DRM, and secondarily to the quality of the game.  People DO make their purchase decisions based on user reviews.  That's why there are companies whose primary business is to get paid to mass upvote product user reviews.  And do you honestly think that the 1.5/5 rating by several thousand people at Amazon.com didn't keep a good number of people from buying the game? 

And just for giggles...if you Google Amazon user reviews, Amazon's Spore page is the first link.   
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 24, 2008, 07:54:46 am
This de-authorization tools still doesn't fit my needs. I formatted my computer a while ago without uninstalling Spore first, I also installed a new Operative System so I'm afraid that one install is gone forever. I still have 3 installs left with 1 currently in use but I can't see why the De-Authorization tool can't just show as a list of Authorizations and the dates they were made on so we can cancel the ones we want that we couldn't cancel before the tool came out.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: smjjames on December 24, 2008, 08:21:12 am
Speaking of pirating, I just saw an ad on the Spore:General page saying Spore download, free, legal. lol

I didn't check it out of course as I already have Spore and no need to mention the site name that it linked to.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Lippy on December 24, 2008, 08:52:30 am
I can't see why the De-Authorization tool can't just show as a list of Authorizations and the dates they were made on so we can cancel the ones we want that we couldn't cancel before the tool came out.

SecuROM is made to be invisible.  The less the end user knows about the better it is for them.  You can't make SecuROM invisible if there are all these tools that allow you to look at it.  That's the big problem.  SecuROM needs to be out in the open.  It needs to have all the tools right there for activation/deactivation, allowing the users to see how many activations they have left.  But the problem with that is if its a trend, you have a bunch of games each with their own activation/deactivation, and in order to save them all, you need to deactivate before uninstalling, or before your computer decides to crash and die.  The solution is of course Steam, or a Steam like system. 

Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: AlfredO on December 24, 2008, 10:53:11 am
Where do they get the software that runs on the private servers? Isn't there a central program you need that you can't just get from the box you buy?
They just need the source code, an emulation of it, or to write their own code that runs the game's stuff. Then they need a server powerful enough to run it.  And then other variables, I don't know anything beyond what I've been told on Star Wars Galaxies Pre-CU websites.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 24, 2008, 02:54:05 pm
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Okay, point-by-point in order to actually get some bloody answers. God, I feel like Dan Bernstein talking to meatball Bears fans...
This post of mine is probably going to verge on being rude, but honestly, stop being so insufferable, stop taking it so seriously, and you might have better luck. Is the art of conversation so lost on you? GamingSteve's Spore General isn't a business conference between heads of companies, man... and being so hard-edge on it is starting to grate on my nerves.

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Explain why World of Goo, with no DRM, has an over 90% piracy rate.
Its an indygame. Not only do people expect it to have lesser quality (whilst they tend to be more polished at heart), they also have less fear of consequences and the downloads are generally a lot smaller.

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Uhm, no. I don't have to cite examples of alternatives
Sure you do, if you want something other than DRM in your games.
No, I don't, because i'm not in this thread campaigning to have less/no DRM in games, nor would I expect a company to suddenly do a full 180 because some random nobody on a forum came up with a random idea. My only position in this thread has been that piracy isnt as simple as "Piracy is bad and you should feel bad".

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Prove it. Or retract your statement.
Conversations of opinion do not hinge on concrete proof, but if I claimed that gravity caused a ball to drop when I let go of it, its not a leap of faith nor logic to assume that gravity had some impact on the situation at hand. Whist the piracy issues may not be as simple as I might be sounding to make them, including something that only disadvantages legal buyers, and therefore decreasing the appeal of an 'experimental' title, is more likely to increase piracy... not lower it. There is no need for proof, I am not asserting a fact, but supposing something based on human behaviour. Given the circumstance, you are doing something akin to challenging me to prove gravity was a factor in a ball hitting the floor. So, no. Stop being insufferable. :P

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As for concrete evidence? You expect me to pull undeniably solid evidence out of my ass. After all, forumgoers keep a full stock of sources that are held by law to tell the truth, right?
Exactly - they don't. If a publisher isn't going to listen to a bunch of forum-goers without sources and proof of their assertions, why should I? Your and my little spat, it doesn't matter to anyone. What publishers listen to is facts, and undeniable proofs.
Spat? I hope you aren't taking this too seriously.
We're not here in a gaming forum because we want to change the industry, man. Besides, its not our job to nanny the industry, those big companies are all grown up, and they have entire divisions dedicated to stat gathering, marketting strategies, and measuring responses to decisions and changes.

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I can't find NPD numbers for the two of them.
Even if you could, you can't provide proof of the number of pirated copies anyway. The number of pirated copies and lost profits is early always speculative. Concrete proof, etc.

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And you suggest that some sort of 'game rental' system would prevent piracy? Which is it?
Both. People as a whole are neither black nor white. There are people who pirate as a form of 'rental', and there are people who pirate to get a free stockpile of media. Piracy is widespread and readily available, a PC rental service couldn't really worsen the pirating problem simply because it is so widespread already, but it would help to reclaim people who were doing it because they got burned too much. Also, if you were paying attention, I said that I would LIKE a rental system, but I was uncertain as to how it would turn out.

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Do you have any proof that Spore's DRM caused people to turn away from the game?
Only the masses of people online saying they were going to pirate it instead of buy it.
Again, that 'concrete proof' thing strikes again. Shame you're taking a simple conversation based on logical observations and liklihoods, and turning it into some kind of court case.

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Do you lock the doors to your house? Lock your car when you're not in it? hey, odds are you'll be robbed, why bother locking them?
A better example would be a lock that doesn't deter burglars or thieves, but stops you yourself from using it. Then after each time you get robbed blind, you install the next most expensive security system of the same kind... AND WONDER WHY YOU KEEP GETTING ROBBED. Though my example is as far off the core subject as yours was, to be fair. Because theft is not the same as piracy. Do pay attention.

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We're talking about DRM
No, actually. We're talking about piracy. I bought the game regardless of the DRM because I really didn't mind it.
Oh sorry, what was that about strawmen?

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You think? You want publishers who are plunking down a lot of dosh to decide things based on what you think? Again, where is your proof?
No, I just want to talk in a forum without being dissected just for holding a damn opinion, thank you very much.
But oh no, wait, I think all the chairpersons and marketting heads come to GamingSteve General Spore forum, and are reading this very thread and taking every post by me with utter seriousness! :V

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And that is YOUR problem!
No, it isn't my problem at all. I pirate titles to see if I like them before I buy them. :)

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As long as there are plenty of people willing to fork over money for the thing you dislike (in thise case, DRM)
Is that so? I'm glad you're here to tell me what I dislike, regardless of whether or not that has any bearing on the reality of my opinion.

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your opinion is statistically insignificant.
I shall resolve to care more.

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You want DRM to be lessened, you have to make it plainly obvious to publishers that DRM is causing a major loss in sales. Something forum-goers have yet been able to do. They aren't convinced by it, and I'm not either.
Then if my opinion is right, they will continue to lose money as long as they provide incentive for potentially paying customers to pirate their software. It isn't the customers job to run the company they buy from. You say that unless the customer does something, they will lose out? No, they won't. There-in lays the magic of piracy, its an alternative they can't stop, and that speaks the only language they understand : The money language.

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Not everyone - just a statistically significant amount.
Say, like a 1.7million amount?
*looks at the thread title*

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WHAT ARE THESE BETTER WAYS FORWARD?!
*facepalms*
I said figure out a better way. Not "I am the keeper of all business know-hows and know a way that I shall not tell."
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: AlfredO on December 24, 2008, 03:12:25 pm
I hate when debate goes down to commenting point-by-point or whatever. I call it 'bone picking'. Just respond to people in an orderly composition style.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 24, 2008, 04:23:11 pm
I can't see why the De-Authorization tool can't just show as a list of Authorizations and the dates they were made on so we can cancel the ones we want that we couldn't cancel before the tool came out.

SecuROM is made to be invisible.  The less the end user knows about the better it is for them.  You can't make SecuROM invisible if there are all these tools that allow you to look at it.  That's the big problem.  SecuROM needs to be out in the open.  It needs to have all the tools right there for activation/deactivation, allowing the users to see how many activations they have left.  But the problem with that is if its a trend, you have a bunch of games each with their own activation/deactivation, and in order to save them all, you need to deactivate before uninstalling, or before your computer decides to crash and die.  The solution is of course Steam, or a Steam like system. 



The only problem with Steam is that there's no way to transfer my Spore copy to my Steam account... and I really don't feel like buying Spore again.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Lippy on December 24, 2008, 06:23:20 pm
Well, I was only talking about a solution for future games.  We're SOL with the current system.   :P
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: MisterBibs on December 25, 2008, 12:14:00 am
I am not part of the software industry at all. I also perfer "bone picking" so that each point in the argument can be focused on, instead of over-generalized nonsense.

That said,

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stop taking it so seriously

Publishers take piracy very seriously. As a responsible gamer (read: non-pirate), it's my job to take it seriously as well. See, I don't like DRM, but I can't see any reason why my fellow gamers don't deserve it.

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Its an indygame. Not only do people expect it to have lesser quality (whilst they tend to be more polished at heart), they also have less fear of consequences and the downloads are generally a lot smaller.

But you concede that a game without DRM is pirated significantly more than one without any DRM, which renders your argument in this respect nullified.

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Conversations of opinion do not hinge on concrete proof

Which is why we're not having a conversation of opinion. We're having the only relevent conversation when it comes to piracy and DRM: one of numbers and fact.

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There is no need for proof

Sure there is. You are asserting that DRM increases piracy. You have, as of yet, decided not to. I assert this is because your statement is one that cannot be statisically proven, therefore meaningless. It is no different than "Dey need to hire an ex-quartah back or Butkis to run Da Bears!".

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Stop being insufferable.

Like DB, I'm forcing you to defend your specific arguments with concrete proof and specific arguments.

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There are people who pirate as a form of 'rental', and there are people who pirate to get a free stockpile of media.

Irrelevent distinction. They are pirates.

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Only the masses of people online saying they were going to pirate it instead of buy it.

Same 'masses of people' who were going to make Firefly the most-watched TV show in the world, and Serenity the #1 movie in theaters. Neither happened.

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Because theft is not the same as piracy.

Do you have something without paying for it? Theft.

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No, I just want to talk in a forum without being dissected just for holding a damn opinion, thank you very much.

I'm just calling you out on an opinion that has neither the factual evidence or historical proof to justify its existence. You say DRM causes piracy. I ask you to prove it. You kvetch over this. You say the developers have to explore different things to reduce piracy. I ask you to give me specifics. You kvetch over that. The only reason I'm using big bold text is in some admittedly-futile hope that you'll answer the freakin' questions!

"They need to get Butkis back!"
"Why?"
"Because he's Butkis! He'll teach to really HIT people!!"
"Butkis hit people, but no team he was on actually won. He had consistently losing records."
"But he'll teach dem to hit!"


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I pirate titles to see if I like them before I buy them.

And in doing so, convince publishers everywhere to further restrict the way you play your game. Congrats.

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ay, like a 1.7million amount?

Like you said, those numbers are always speculative, and thus, irrelevent.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 25, 2008, 02:40:32 am
I'm gonna go with the generalized non-sense since "bone picking" gives me a headache just by looking at it.

So, I hear you think downloading and playing a game for 2 hours then deleting it is just as bad as downloading it and keeping it forever.
You're wrong, and you know why? Because it's like comparing borrowing a game from a friend who bought it and going to a store and steal it. (Actually not even that since when you're going to a store and steal something you're taking something physical, if I had a magical machine that could make copies of Chocolates I wouldn't be stealing them really...)

Publishers take piracy seriously?
Sure they do, some of them that is. Valve doesn't give a flying crap about piracy and you want to know why? Because they developed Steam, it's effective and it works, the reason I legally own all of Valves games is because they are awesome, they give updates for free (big updates, eg. if Valve made Spore we'd get Cute & Creepy and all of the future expansion packs for free). Even if pirates manage to crack Valves games (which they do), they never get those awesome updates, they can't play online, etc. Valve manages to encourage people to buy their games without those people feeling forced to. In fact, Valve is so cool that I don't need to pirate their games before I buy them, I even pre-order them without knowing what they're about until they come out  8)

Now Spore, Spore would have sold more without the DRM to begin with, or a less strict DRM. The online element is an important factor of the game, had Sporepedia been as good as it was made to be on the demos they wouldn't have needed DRM at all because people would buy the game just to be able to use it online!

Finally, the reason people pirated an indygame with no DRM more than a game with DRM is not because of the security or lack of there of. It's because that indygame is for example, 30 times smaller than Spore which takes less time to download so it is downloaded more in the same time frame.

Your problem is that you look at piracy in the following way:
- If someone buys the game they are not pirates.
- If someone pirates the game they are pirates AND they'll never buy the game.

There's something in between called "pirate to try, buy to keep" that a lot of people do, not everything is black and white in this world MisterBibs.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Uroboros on December 25, 2008, 02:52:40 am
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stop taking it so seriously
Publishers take piracy very seriously. As a responsible gamer (read: non-pirate), it's my job to take it seriously as well. See, I don't like DRM, but I can't see any reason why my fellow gamers don't deserve it.
Because the only ones that it has any effect on, are the people who legally buy the game. Again, piracy is at a stage where no matter the anti-piracy measure, it is often cracked within 24-48 hours of release. If you frequently pirate and keep games, you are uneffected by the anti-piracy measures. The only people who feel any ill effect, are those who buy it. Whilst not EVERYONE who buys it will have a bad time, or feel any restrictive behaviour, it still remains that the only crowd who will, are the legal buyers. This is why people say it "punishes the customer", and why even when the reality of the situation is that most buyers will have no problems running it, the customer base feels somewhat back-handed.

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But you concede that a game without DRM is pirated significantly more than one without any DRM, which renders your argument in this respect nullified.
No, I said nothing about DRM there. The amount a game is pirated often has little to do with the anti-piracy measures, given that devoted cracking groups remove all such things prior to sharing and circulating them. The downloading pirates essentially recieve a 'clean' game with no anti-piracy measures, regardless of what the game had prior to cracking. A game with only a CD-key check, and a game with a tough DRM, are both the same to a pirate who downloads a cracked version : Playable, and unprotected. I'm going to play you at your own game now. You're asserting that games without DRM are pirated significantly more than games that do have it. Prove it. Oh wait, you can't. Speculative numbers works both ways.

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Which is why we're not having a conversation of opinion.
Speak for yourself. I only pointed out a likely outcome of a relatively simple situation. Just because I open my mouth, it doesn't mean everything that comes out of it is an aspect of universal truth, nor does it mean I claim it to be as such. Observation doesnt require a reserve of extended research and hard stats y'know. Sometimes observation, flawwed as they can be, yield reflections of truth that no statistic can singularly encompass. Whilst not all customers buy online, nor indulge in online discussion, the online reactions to the DRM, whether justified or silly or not, offers insight into the effect the DRM had on sales... if only for a portion of the customer base.

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You are asserting that DRM increases piracy.
No. You need to listen to what i'm saying, and stop trying to condense my points so much. I'm not saying DRM increases piracy, i'm saying SOME forms of anti-piracy measures can convert customers to pirates, simply because they are unwilling to pay to be disadvantaged, when the pirated copies are cracked and 'unburdened'. Yes, some of them will also be people of your 'angry nerd' strawman, who pirate it as a way to hit back against a percieved slight. Pirating a game is one way of voicing your disapproval in a manner that cannot be ignored, because it hits them in a permenant way, in the wallet, one sale at a time. No, that doesn't make it just and right and morally awesome. I'm only saying that this is the way some people work, and common sense tells me it isn't a largely isolated circumstance when this occurs.

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I assert this is because your statement is one that cannot be statisically proven, therefore meaningless.
You have yet to statistically yours either. Again, this board is not a business meeting. Discussions of observation do not require undeniable fact.

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Because theft is not the same as piracy.
Do you have something without paying for it? Theft.
Opinion. Refer to the previous links in the thread about rulings that piracy and theft are seperate crimes.

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answer the freakin' questions
If bolding it did anything to that effect, i'd have to bold my entire posts but they'd just become an eyesore.
You're viewing this in far too black-and-white, and therefore my points are lost upon you.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: AlfredO on December 25, 2008, 03:34:52 am

But you concede that a game without DRM is pirated significantly more than one without any DRM, which renders your argument in this respect nullified.

That's impossible to concede. Spore, Mass Effect (PC), and The Sims 2, three of the very few games with the Sony DRM are the most pirated games in history. And you say 'that's speculated' well, you're right. There's probably a lot more about that we don't know about.

It has nothing to do with wither DRM is present or not. If one hacker compromises the DRM code and removes it, then it has no effect. That game is already been published on hundreds of pirate websites without the DRM. The DRM only stops people from making legitimate backups or small scale CD burns for their friends, things like that. They might as well just putting a video of "Don't Copy That Floppy" at the start of all their games.

Nobody, to my knowledge, is accusing you of working in the gaming industry. 'Fanboy' means you love them so much you'll defend anything they do.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 25, 2008, 06:38:57 am
Most pirated games of 2008:
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#__game___________________downloads___released

1__Spore___________________(1,700,000)__(Sept. 2008)
2__The Sims 2_______________(1,150,000)__(Sept. 2004)
3__Assassins Creed___________(1,070,000)__(Nov. 2007)
4__Crysis___________________(940,000)____(Nov. 2007)
5__Command & Conquer 3______(860,000)___(Mar. 2007)
6__Call of Duty 4_____________(830,000)___(Nov. 2007)
7__GTA San Andreas__________(740,000)___(Jun. 2005)
8__Fallout 3_________________(645,000)___(Oct. 2008)
9__Far Cry 2_________________(585,000)___(Oct. 2008)
10__Pro Evolution Soccer 2009__(470,000)___(Oct. 2008)

Source: http://torrentfreak.com/top-10-most-pirated-games-of-2008-081204/

Not suprising that most of them are from EA, is it because they're cool games and every pirate wants them? NO.
It's because those from EA all have crappy DRM that hurts the legal buyers, and among those are games that were released full of bugs (FarCry 2 *cough*)

The only thing I'm ashamed of is that Fallout 3 is in that list...
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: YESH on December 25, 2008, 08:24:01 am
Will experience reducing copy protection help decrease piracy in any way? No.
Is piracy therefor justifiable? No.

Piracy is wrong, but making horrible copy protection software won't make it go away.
And yes, copy protection does increase piracy activity. Proof?
Cubase crashes for me because of the copy protection they made for it.
I lost administrative rights to launch half of my applications at the exact moment I'd finished installing Spore.
What did I do? I pirated the software and got a working version.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/media-407358/Game-Consoles-How-Anti-Piracy-Screws-over-People-who-Buy-PC-Games.html (http://www.crunchyroll.com/media-407358/Game-Consoles-How-Anti-Piracy-Screws-over-People-who-Buy-PC-Games.html)


The problem is the gaming companies don't see piracy for what it is; a cry for improvement. The gaming companies choose to buttf*ck their customers instead of keeping up with the technological progressions, like Valve, Steam actually makes me want to buy their games, simply because it's mind-numbingly easy and I haven't had any problems with it. And don't say my opinion is statistically insignificant, because else, piracy wouldn't be such a big problem.

What copy-protection software basically does is force every legitimate software buyer left to pirate, it's a complete and utterly bullsh*t solution, it's a plain shoot-yourself-in-the-foot solution.

EDIT: Just remembered something else. A guy I know pirates all the time, he got Steam recently and somehow that inspired him to buy a buttload of games he had previously downloaded, so don't tell me that companies can't do anything, but make copy-protection, to help piracy problems.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 25, 2008, 08:48:58 am
Most crackers/pirates (the ones that crack the games & remove copy protection) do it because they find it fun to go around the protection systems that companies throw at them, if companies actually made an effective system or just gave up altogether the piracy rate would decrease.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: AlfredO on December 25, 2008, 09:47:40 am
I was reading the comments on a pirate website Wikipedia's Spore article linked me to, and most of the commentators said they hated the game but pirated it because they wanted to screw EA over. There were a lot of chants of 'help us make this the most pirated game ever'.

Also I think that Mass Effect, which I mentioned before, isn't on the list because they took the DRM off not too long after the release. I'm not sure if EA had anything to do with that game, but they're usually too stubborn to do something like remove the DRM. No matter how bad it hurts their profits.


The only thing I'm ashamed of is that Fallout 3 is in that list...
What about GTA San Andreas and the Soccer game? Fallout is an EA published game. Not sure if it contained DRM, though.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Jaleho on December 25, 2008, 10:04:17 am
Nobody, to my knowledge, is accusing you of working in the gaming industry. 'Fanboy' means you love them so much you'll defend anything they do.

I asked if he was in software, but it seems he is in some industry where he feels "theft" is ruining his livelihood, otherwise why would he care so much? I mean... are there really people left on the internet under the age of 50 who don't know the difference between theft and piracy by now?
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: AlfredO on December 25, 2008, 10:07:24 am
A lot of people don't approve of piracy.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 25, 2008, 11:07:26 am
I was reading the comments on a pirate website Wikipedia's Spore article linked me to, and most of the commentators said they hated the game but pirated it because they wanted to screw EA over. There were a lot of chants of 'help us make this the most pirated game ever'.

Also I think that Mass Effect, which I mentioned before, isn't on the list because they took the DRM off not too long after the release. I'm not sure if EA had anything to do with that game, but they're usually too stubborn to do something like remove the DRM. No matter how bad it hurts their profits.


The only thing I'm ashamed of is that Fallout 3 is in that list...
What about GTA San Andreas and the Soccer game? Fallout is an EA published game. Not sure if it contained DRM, though.

It had some sort of SecuROM, the only reason I said it's a shame it is in there is because it is an awesome game and the SecuROM on it isn't invasive or game-breaking at all.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Snork on December 25, 2008, 11:36:01 am
Quote
Fallout is an EA published game.
??? WAT


Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 25, 2008, 12:40:29 pm
This topic is not holding a high standard i say. Asking to back up statements and not doing it self how bad it is. Bickering is not helping ether. Not trying to find solutions is maybe even worse. 



And no Fallout was published by Interplay developed by Black Isle (A in house dev studio no longer active.)

The newest game is Published by Bethesda (and they own the rights now for Fallout). EA form what i know have nothing to do with them.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 25, 2008, 02:27:16 pm
Quote
Fallout is an EA published game.
??? WAT




Bethesda Softworks made it, Valve is publishing it on Steam but I dunno who the retail publisher is. So I'll join you in saying.. what ???
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 25, 2008, 08:24:48 pm
Form what i can tell is Bethesda Softworks which is a part of ZeniMax Media. EA have never been mentioned what i have seen.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: AlfredO on December 29, 2008, 08:21:03 am
Huh, you're right. I always thought it was. I guess one of those logos on the start up for Fallout really looks like the EA logo.

But Steam is just as much a publisher as Amazon.com is
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: starshard0 on December 29, 2008, 11:06:02 am
Let's pretend I have 100 friends (or seeing as how unlikely that is, let's say I go to a school with 100 students), and after I finish a game I lend one of those copies to one of the students. After he finishes it, I lend it to another until all 100 of them have played it and finished it.

Is that piracy? If not, then what is the difference between piracy and sharing? Is it the scale? In that case, let's change the above example so that I go to a school with 1000 students, or even 10000. I think we need a better definition of piracy before we go around concluding things.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Miclee on December 29, 2008, 12:32:21 pm
Let's pretend I have 100 friends (or seeing as how unlikely that is, let's say I go to a school with 100 students), and after I finish a game I lend one of those copies to one of the students. After he finishes it, I lend it to another until all 100 of them have played it and finished it.

Is that piracy? If not, then what is the difference between piracy and sharing? Is it the scale? In that case, let's change the above example so that I go to a school with 1000 students, or even 10000. I think we need a better definition of piracy before we go around concluding things.
We gots a
(http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/489111/2/istockphoto_489111_you_win_vector_illustration.jpg)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: starshard0 on December 29, 2008, 05:58:29 pm
I can't tell if that's supposed to be sarcastic or not, stupid internet.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: AlfredO on December 29, 2008, 06:09:34 pm
Well, not to that extreme. But hes right to an extent. How can you legally conclude that someone is a 'close, personal friend'? I would say that its the assurance that your sharing is on a closed circuit; that your friend isn't going to give it to another person who will continue the cycle. A lot of copyright legality seems to have to do with 'if we don't see it or it doesn't hit our wallets that hard, then its alright'.

Obviously that doesn't effect the overall number of Spore copies which have been downloaded on pirate torrents. But the intellectual property laws are really screwed up in the US, very open to interpretation.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: starshard0 on December 29, 2008, 08:32:23 pm
I think the inherent problem with modern day games is the fact that you're being sold the rights to play a game as opposed to the game itself. Hence the EULA, which pretty much tells you what you can and cannot do with this software. Think of it as if you leased a building, you can't tear down the building if you're not given the rights to, you can't renovate the building if you don't have the rights, to, you can't even paint the building without the rights to. I guess on a really abstract level that would be a similar thing, since intellectual stuff is more like having a machine that makes buildings, but you're only allowed to make a building for yourself and not one for all your friends even though that machine could make an indefinite amount of buildings. In the case of DRM, that machine can only make a limited amount of buildings, but then someone messes with the machine so that it can make an infinite amount of buildings and gives them away anyways. This isn't really going anywhere, but the main point is that developers need to stop focusing on the pirates and start focusing on making games that sell so the piracy becomes insignificant.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 29, 2008, 08:52:40 pm
The problem is that there is great question about how binding the EULA is. We are literally living in a age where companies try to claim ownership over everything. Even things that you may have produced with there tools. (And boy that could get messy when it turns out that everyone is using tools produced by everyone. But hay maybe the workers will rise up against there capitalist oppressors using EULAs on pens and such as the means  ;) )

In the end is about building a system that works and as i have said before. I think there is something wrong with the system we have today if Piracy is such a big issue. We should at least dare to take a look at alternative ways of publishing and compensation to stimulate the spreed of culture and knowledge.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: DarkDragon on December 30, 2008, 03:25:45 am
Let's pretend I have 100 friends (or seeing as how unlikely that is, let's say I go to a school with 100 students), and after I finish a game I lend one of those copies to one of the students. After he finishes it, I lend it to another until all 100 of them have played it and finished it.

Is that piracy? If not, then what is the difference between piracy and sharing? Is it the scale? In that case, let's change the above example so that I go to a school with 1000 students, or even 10000. I think we need a better definition of piracy before we go around concluding things.

Let's pretend you have a family of 6 people, by family I mean close relatives such as parents and siblings. You buy a game and some or all of them want to play it, they're playing it on your computer but it was you who bought it, yet everyone got to play the game as much as they wanted. Now by your theory, everyone should have paid the game otherwise it's piracy, then again (by your theory) you should have paid 6x more for the game or your family should have bought 6 different copies otherwise... it's piracy  ::)
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 30, 2008, 06:50:19 am
Actually i am not sure it is. First of all EULA and Copy Right are not the same thing. Copyright is a basic right that gives the Copyright holder a limited monopoly on his creative work. Now EULA is used on top of that to define those rights. However how binding the contract is is up to intergeneration and some things would likely not swing in favor of the copyright holder in court.

For more information i suggest EULA article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA) on wiki.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Lippy on December 30, 2008, 07:39:41 am
Microsoft puts "Do not lend or make illegal copies of this disc" on their discs.  At least they used to.  They can say it all they want, but that doesn't make it illegal.  I don't think there's a precedent for a software company suing an end user for letting someone else use their software after they're done with it.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: Yokto on December 30, 2008, 08:36:46 am
And then there is the problem with what a system is. I mean if i am not suppose to lead out my resources (Or there resources which i lease if we ask them <_<) the how should i run a platform with multiple users. Heck MS even supports multiple profiles. I know in my home we use each others machines all the time. What about terminals and running software on a distance? A other feature that MS supports btw. It could turn really messy really fast.

And well it is really messy. Anyone who have actually bothered to read the EULAs know that.
Title: Re: Spore 2m copies, has 1.7m pirated. So almost half...
Post by: AlfredO on December 30, 2008, 08:37:52 am
Let's pretend I have 100 friends (or seeing as how unlikely that is, let's say I go to a school with 100 students), and after I finish a game I lend one of those copies to one of the students. After he finishes it, I lend it to another until all 100 of them have played it and finished it.

Is that piracy? If not, then what is the difference between piracy and sharing? Is it the scale? In that case, let's change the above example so that I go to a school with 1000 students, or even 10000. I think we need a better definition of piracy before we go around concluding things.

Let's pretend you have a family of 6 people, by family I mean close relatives such as parents and siblings. You buy a game and some or all of them want to play it, they're playing it on your computer but it was you who bought it, yet everyone got to play the game as much as they wanted. Now by your theory, everyone should have paid the game otherwise it's piracy, then again (by your theory) you should have paid 6x more for the game or your family should have bought 6 different copies otherwise... it's piracy  ::)

I've always heard that there is some lenience in the US about trading and reproducing material for "close friends", I presume as long as they don't continue making copies themselves. But I'm sure representatives for game publishers would beg to differ. Nintendo is probably the worst for doing that, as they claim that any legal reproduction of their material is illegal. They specifically state on their website that the archival laws for backing up old games is void simply because they don't like the process to emulate them. They would claim that the VCR is totally illegal.