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Will Wright's Spore => Spore: Creation Corner => Topic started by: Kyyp on March 13, 2006, 12:08:55 am

Title: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on March 13, 2006, 12:08:55 am
Allright, finally decided to make my own creature.
It's name is the Kawona.
It is basically a very odd looking duck.
Have not yet designed it's culture/habitat, but do plan to.
It has 4 wings, 2 arms, 2 legs, and a so-far completely useless head-fin.
Capable of flight and swimming on the surface of water.
It uses it's tail to propel itself in the water since it's feet are just the 2 toes.
I did not notice untill after it was finished but the wings should be much much larger than I have them drawn here.
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2514/evolution9nu.gif)
Forgive the not-so-great drawing please.
It's been a while since I've actually just sat down and tried to draw something.

EDIT:
Removed un-related creature.
Updated picture:
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3983/kawonasmaller9wb.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 13, 2006, 12:25:10 am
DAMN,I love the look of the 2nd creature  ;D.If it stuffed the food in that hole that would be very,um different,REALY.I wonder if Spore will be able to do that?
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Hydromancerx on March 13, 2006, 02:43:09 am
This is great i love the animation. :D
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Mangerman on March 13, 2006, 07:12:41 am
That's something quite different if you compare it with other creatures. Cool animation  :D
The second creature is also very original.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 13, 2006, 07:41:47 am
that is cool so very very cool
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 14, 2006, 11:21:30 pm
First off, more info.
The Kawona is an amphibious species, which means that they can live in water or on land.
They have gills located on the top of their beaks for breathing underwater.
The Kawona is capable of flight and also fast swimming due to their four wings and tail that double as fins.
Their bodies are almost completely covered in very light, feather-like scales.
They have 3 fingers on each hand, and 2 toes on each foot.
Their beaks are much more flexible than most birds because of the Kawona's close relation to fish, this giving them much more freedom in their speach.
An adult Kawona is roughly 3/4ths the size of the average human.
Not being a very predatory species (other than to small fish) the Kawona has developed a light blue hue so that it may better blend in with the ocean and the sky to more easily hide from predators.
Amuyeli, the Kawona homeworld is made up of one vast ocean with small plateau islands jutting up from the sea floor.
There are very few land-based races on the planet because of the lack of land.
Most species are either flyers, swimmers, or amphibians.
And now a brand new, much better picture of an average Kawona.
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3983/kawonasmaller9wb.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: kmr on March 14, 2006, 11:47:03 pm
Mad props to another avian-looking-but-not-avian race! ;D
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 15, 2006, 12:28:36 am
Used Terragen to show roughly what the Kawona homeworld, Amuyeli, would look like.
On top of each of the plateau-islands would be a few incredibly massive trees.
The trees on the plateaus are easily twice as high as a redwood and three times as thick.
Due to their odd locations the trees have developed a way to seperate the salt from the seawater.
Any extra fresh water that the tree does not need is then pumped up to the top of the trees where is collects in large bowl-like leaves.
Since the trees are constantly pumping water the leaves often overflow creating small waterfalls falling from the tops of the trees.
The islands are where 90% of Amuyeli's creatures are found, either living in the tree, on/in the island, or in the surrounding waters.
Unfortunately Terragen cannot show the trees that would occupy these islands.
Just imagine those in.
4 or 5 trees for the biggest island in the picture.
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/756/kawonaplanet22gz.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 15, 2006, 12:30:25 am
Why did you get rid of the other creature?I really liked it  ;).You could of just put the new pic there and put the other creature on the bottum
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 15, 2006, 10:20:42 am
A closer look at the islands of Amuyeli.
The Digalvdi Tree (or Tree of the Heavens) is the main source of life on the planet.
It rains maybe 2 or 3 times a year on Amuyeli, and even then it is only a light rain for a day or so.
By purifying the sea water, The Digalvdi trees provide the only truly fresh water on the planet.
The Digalvdi Trees have a double canopy, creating large pockets of open space between the layers.
This space is home to the majority of the planet's flying creatures, including many Kawona.
(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/6523/amuyeli4tn.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Hydromancerx on March 15, 2006, 03:15:34 pm
Very cool :D
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 15, 2006, 03:36:31 pm
Couple more pictures.
Tribal
(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/8366/kawonatribal0sk.png)
Bronze Age
(http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/8895/kawonabronze8sz.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: smjjames on March 15, 2006, 03:38:38 pm
I dunno if its intentional or not, but they do look Native American. the bronze age one looks like it has Mesoamerican influences.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Hydromancerx on March 15, 2006, 04:01:16 pm
Great job! I love them. And great style too!. More more!
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 15, 2006, 04:04:45 pm
They are closely based on the peoples that lived in the Americas before the settlers showed up.
All of the names are that way too.
Of course the problem with this is that I don't have a lot to base anything on after the bronze age (which I didn't even realize untill after doing Bronze Age stuff).
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: jmrdex on March 15, 2006, 04:09:22 pm
Buetiful. I love the look of that thing. If I could I would steal it and make it my own. Dang copyright laws.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 15, 2006, 05:32:50 pm
After a very long Bronze Age, the Kawona moved right into the Industrial Age.
The Kawona never went through a medieval era, bulky metal and stone creations are not very helpful when it comes to flying and swimming.
In the Industrial Age, the Kawona have begun to use small, simple machines.
They have also begun to file down their nails to a smoother, rounder shape instead of letting them grow into the talons that the more primitive Ages had.
At this point in time most Kawona have moved out of the water to Digalvdi Tree based housing.
Since it is not often used, it had become commonplace to tie down the head fins when leaving the home.
A few more primitive tribes in the far west still make their homes under the sea.
EDIT: Old picture removed, see my next post for the updated picture.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: kalcion on March 15, 2006, 05:53:16 pm
LOL! Where's the breif case and swingline stapler?
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 15, 2006, 10:36:40 pm
A new version of the Industrial Age clothes that matches previous styles better.
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1417/kawonaindustrial23jb.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Hydromancerx on March 15, 2006, 10:44:30 pm
I like this one much better.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 16, 2006, 12:51:28 am
The more advanced Kawona are generally a very peaceful race.
Unfortunately the tribal half of the Kawona do not share this temperment.
The "Sea-Breather" tribes had decided they also needed to rule the land and sky.

Luckily for the "Air-Breather" tribes, their technology had advanced greatly since the last conflict, so they were able to defend themselves.
The "Sea-Breather" tribes however, were content to stay with their crude weapons, and were never able to make any progress.
After the war the "Sea-Breathers" began a massive exploration campaign and were not heard from again for many, many years.
Pictured below is one of the "Air-Breather" soldiers in standard uniform.
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7397/kawonalateindustrial4zx.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Mangerman on March 16, 2006, 07:17:39 am
Good picture, keep it going.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 16, 2006, 02:04:12 pm
The Kawona Build their homes high up in the branches of the Digalvdi Trees.
All buildings are relatively simple and built from light materials.
They rely mainly on support from the tree itself to keep the buildings upright.
During the War Era style was no longer a concern, and all buildings and pathways were camoflaged.
Vast networks of channels and piping above the cities were created for funneling the smoke from their factories to other areas of the island, to throw off attackers looking for their settlements.
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5342/kawonahomes2kf.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Hydromancerx on March 16, 2006, 02:43:48 pm
Cool! That reminds me i got to show the steps for the Nauceans, i have alot of ages to cover *chuckles*
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: LONE GUNNER3 on March 16, 2006, 02:55:01 pm
Cool! That reminds me i got to show the steps for the Nauceans, i have alot of ages to cover *chuckles*

WHAT?there are more?  :o
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 16, 2006, 02:58:33 pm
I think he means the steps to how their buildings developed.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 17, 2006, 03:03:12 pm
A simple 3D representation of a small Industrial Age town.
(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1323/amuyeli24ho.jpg)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Hydromancerx on March 17, 2006, 03:12:34 pm
That looks great! What program did you use?
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: MadGiraffe on March 17, 2006, 03:21:10 pm
Wow, that's inspirational! I love this style, I migh fancy myself/you with some digital sketches of their city and world with these creatures. The execution is okay, nice to see you doing also 3d things, cool.

But btw, their world and the creatures remind me a lot of the Rito their, they also live in a world consisting mainly of water and small high islands, they also have a slight indian influence. Hmm, origin of inspiration?
(and the islands resembles the deku tree island a bit too)

This makes me want to make one of my sentient creatures influenced by my most popular ancient culture, the germanic culture (also since it was destroyed by the romans).
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 17, 2006, 03:39:07 pm
I made that picture using XSI.
The fact that they resemble Rito is completely cooincidental.
I didn't even think of that untill you said it.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: huggkruka on March 18, 2006, 05:34:10 am
Very good, from the animation in the beginning to the 3D village. I love the art style too! Is it Flash?
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 18, 2006, 09:32:57 am
I am currently using Illustrator to draw them.
The animation was done comepletely in Flash while I figured out Illustrator though.
As the months go on they will look different as I am only using the 30 day trials of these programs (except XSI).
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 18, 2006, 03:22:51 pm
The Undersea Kawona (or "Sea-Breathers") are quite different from their Tree-dwelling relatives.
The most noticible difference is their color.
While the Air-Breathers are a blueish color, the Sea-Breathers are much more green.
Another physical difference is their head fin.
Sea-Breather head fins are much larger for better control in the water.
The Sea-Breathers did not develope technologically as quickly as the Air-Breathers.
While the Air-Breathers continued on into the Industrial Age, the Sea-Breathers were still in tribes.
They enjoy battle to an almost dangerous extent.
Many towns are lacking a town hall, but none are without a colosseum or dueling pit.
Eventually the Sea-Breathers became jealous of the Air-Breather's technology and decided to take it.
Their tactics and battle experience far surpassed any of the Air-Breathers but their lack of technology led to their eventual downfall.
Shortly after The War every last one of the Sea-Breathers left on a massive exploration and were not heard from again for many many years.
A Normal Sea-Breather Kawona
(http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8129/kawonaundersea6sy.png)
A Tribal Sea-Breather Kawona
(http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7474/kawonaunderseatribal9fq.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 19, 2006, 01:01:17 am
Sorry bout the tripple post but this is a big one.

After The War the "Air-Breathers" lived on in relative peace for several decades.
They advanced on to the Steam Age where they began to build bigger and more complex machinery.
(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9141/kawonasteam0nf.png)

They then moved on to the Science Age where Logic and Problem Solving ruled and the Arts went unnoticed.
(http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/7716/kawonascience2ya.png)

The "Air-Breathers" then made their biggest change yet by sending the first Kawona into space and moving into the early Space Age.
(http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/2338/kawonaspace2bv.png)



All the while, on the other side of the planet, the "Sea-Breathers" were also advancing at an alarming rate.
When the "Sea-Breathers" reached their new home after the Great Exploration, they began the construction of a vast empire covering a large portion of Amuyeli's sea bed.
As the empire grew, so did it's technology, and the "Sea-Breathers" quickly reached the Bronze Age.
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5949/kawonaunderseabronze6pv.png)

Through war and enslavement the "Sea-Breathers" gained knowledge much faster than it took the "Air-Breathers" to originally figure it out.
The "Sea-Breathers" were in the Industrial Age in no time.
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4708/kawonaunderseaindustrial3ba.png)

This is when the "Air-Breather" technology was no longer a help in the area the "Sea-Breathers" wanted to know about most, war.
Because of their lasting peace, the "Air-Breathers" never researched things such as personal weaponry, missiles, and atomic bombs.
The "Sea-Breathers" however, were quite eager to learn these things.
This quickly brought them into the Atomic Age.
(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3415/kawonaunderseaatomic0am.png)

Eventually the "Air-Breathers" heard about the "Sea-Breather's" new technology.
They knew that war was inevitable.
The "Air-Breathers" however had not witnessed the actual power of the "Sea-Breather" weaponry, and thus vastly underestimated it.
They did little more to prepare than to build temporary outposts, cheap camoflage, and weak city walls.
They worked for the most part, with few losses on the "Air-Breather" side.
Two months after the war began, it was over.
One quiet morning in Amuyeli's spring season, the "Air-Breather" capitol city of Owenvsv was hit by a massive missile strike and was completely decimated.
After witnessing such power, the "Air-Breathers" knew there was no way they could win this war.
This began what is now known as "The Great Exodus", when every last "Air-Breather" left the planet of Amuyeli, never to return.
The "Sea-Breathers" began their long rule of the planet, which lasted many centuries.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Hydromancerx on March 19, 2006, 01:41:05 am
These are all cool, but i ahve one question? Do you draw each from scratch or re-use previous pictures and just add new clothing to it?
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: huggkruka on March 19, 2006, 01:42:13 am
Very well thought out history. The different ages are cool too. I especially like the spacesuit  ;D
The text "long rule of the planet, which lasted many centuries.", is that a cliffhanger? Will something happen to them?
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 19, 2006, 09:21:56 am
These are all cool, but i ahve one question? Do you draw each from scratch or re-use previous pictures and just add new clothing to it?

That's the benefit of not hand drawing them.
I either open up the Pre-Tribal file and add clothes, of open one of the others and delete things.
Since everything is on different layers it keeps things from getting messy.
Saves lots of time.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: a14gt on March 19, 2006, 01:02:30 pm
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2514/evolution9nu.gif)

 I realy want to know how and where do you get that kind of fade effect. On image shack it has a fade but it moves the camera and it goes to slow.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 19, 2006, 01:27:57 pm
I made the animation using Flash.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 19, 2006, 08:35:15 pm
Steam Age - Great Exodus Homes.
(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/9229/kawonahomes23ee.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: smjjames on March 19, 2006, 08:39:42 pm
so, what happened to the Air-breathers? did they settle somewhere and become very advanced while the sea-breathers went on thier path which eventually led to space and perhaps to thier eventual meeting of the two? although they'd be very different culturally and possibly biologically by then.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 19, 2006, 10:39:32 pm
I will add more to their history as I draw the stuff.
I'm pretty much making this up as I go along so I honestly don't know yet haha.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Lambsquirter on March 20, 2006, 12:32:48 am
i really like the advancement of the cities in the trees.
What will happen if the tree's fall over?
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 20, 2006, 12:52:27 am
Digalvdi Trees are 3 times as thick as a redwood.
Theyre all several hundred years old.
It is incredibly unlikely that one would ever fall over.
They'd need some sort of massively powerful hurricane or something.
In that case the buildings would be gone even if the tree stayed up.
Of course by the Science Age they were all re-inforced just in case.
The trees are resistant to most natural dangers.
Other than the roots, they are high enough up on the islands that the waves never hit them.
Strong enough that they're not effected by the wind.
Because of all the seawater they pump up they are almost always covered in a thin sheet of water, thus cancelling out any attempts to bur them down.

In fact, in all of Kawona recorded history, the first time a Digalvdi Tree was ever reported as dead, was when the missile strike destroyed the "Air-Breather" capitol city.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 20, 2006, 02:07:39 am
Time to take a break from the tales of the "Air-Breathers" now that they have fled the planet.
Gonna focus a bit more on the undersea Kawona.
Since starting a campfire is obviously impossible at the bottom of the ocean, the "Sea-Breathers" rely on the eerie glow of the Svnoyi Plant.
(http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/6162/kawonasvnoyiplant1gd.png)

This plant can be uprooted and re-planted without it's death.
Each plant only lives for about a year, so they must be replaced quite often.
Since it is such an important part of life for the "Sea-Breathers", Svnoyi Farmers are some of the richest Kawona in the empire.

And now for the "Sea-Breathers" housing development.
(http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/2129/kawonaunderseahomes4ll.png)

Since they rarely had any direct interaction with the "Air-Breathers", their culture developed much differently.
Because of the often strong currents in the Amuyeli oceans, the only truly safe place was at the very bottom of the sea bed.
Because of these currents walls and barricades were actually quite useful.
If someone tried to swim over a barrier they would most likely be swept away.
These currents also made sturdiness the most important factor in house design.
90% of all "Sea-Breathers" lived re-inforced tunnels.
These tunnels would often connect with the Digalvdi Tree root systems to provide them with fresh water.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 21, 2006, 02:08:25 pm
i really like these creatures maybe these might be as popular as another Naucuen (and jk if what i said might hurt someone..)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 23, 2006, 06:56:59 pm
Okay I know I usually update this almost every day but I just got Oblivion so that is taking up the majority of my time now.
I will be updating this again... eventually.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Xoatl_169 on March 23, 2006, 06:59:46 pm
i like preatty blue pigeuons there funny .... hehehe  :-[
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 25, 2006, 09:52:24 pm
I am starting up a new idea so I figure it is time to finish up the history books for the Kawona.


The Air-Breathers continued to advance technology into unimaginable levels.
They never did end up settling on any other planets.
They made the choice to live in the depths of space for the rest of their days.
There was not one single war following The Great Exodus.
Eventually they had ships large enough that they might as well have been living on an actual planet.
Their technology then went beyond the point of using metal and conventional materials to build things.
It became common practice to "grow" new things.
At one point it became impossible to tell the difference between a real, life bearing planet, and an Air-Breather ship.
The ships had entire atmospheres and ecosystems with living plants and animals not present anywhere else in the universe.
One day, without much warning, all Air-Breather planet-ships left the limits of the known universe.
While nobody truly knows for certain, it is said that the Air-Breathers went to the deepest most isolated regions of space to begin construction of a new "perfect" galaxy that they could care for until the end of time.

The Sea-Breathers do not have such a happy ending.
Their technology never got very far past the atomic age.
They dabbled in lasers and flights into space, but not with much effort.
Due to the constant wars almost all of their technology was weapon related.
The inevitable world war began less than 50 years after The Great Exodus.
With all sides being fairly equal, this war lasted an incredibly long time.
Everyone was enlisted in the army after graduating gradeschool or at age 10 if they didn't graduate.
They continued their studies at the local military academies and moved directly to active service upon graduation.
Those that did not graduate were put to work in the production plants.
They continued making bigger, stronger, more destructive weapons.
Unsurprisingly, the Sea-Breathers ended up completely destroying the planet.
Not a single living thing survived the worldwide devastation when all Sea-Breather nations launched simultaneous missile strikes upon all other nations.
The planet of Amuyeli remained an uninhabitable wasteland for millions of years until it's sun expanded and destroyed it completely.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: huggkruka on March 26, 2006, 01:12:41 am
Very good history. The Airbreathers tale is pretty fantastic. It certainly has a majestic feel to it. Constructed planets is an idea I've always liked, but contructed galaxies... wow. The sea-breathers history is more conventional, but I dare say it's very probable.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 26, 2006, 09:53:11 am
shouldnt have a few alien cockroach-oids survived the fallout? Maybe achieved sapience and flown off into space as a race of radioactive insects :P
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: operaghost21 on March 26, 2006, 11:52:27 am
I am starting up a new idea so I figure it is time to finish up the history books for the Kawona.

so...so its all over?
 :(

they were great while it lasted...
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Krakow Sam on March 26, 2006, 01:42:15 pm
We still have questions left to be answered!
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on March 26, 2006, 03:06:09 pm
I am currently trying out some concepts of a new race who will end up being the operators of the galactic historical society.
They are the ones who have the records on the Kawona and any other creatures I think up.
I just have to decide what this new race is going to look like (suggestions appreciated!).
I am sure that they will not be a fish or bird however, as I had plenty of that with the Kawona.
If you have any Kawona questions I will do my best to give ya an answer.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: huggkruka on March 26, 2006, 11:49:47 pm
Maybe a *gasp* humanoid! :o
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on April 05, 2006, 01:41:31 pm
(One day before the Missile Strike and The Great Exodus)
*static*
...
...
...
...
...
...
//Incoming Transmission\\
//Decoding\\
...
...
...
/Transmission Decoded\\
//Access Code Confirmed\\
//Soldier #11238842 - Udelidv Ugasesdi\\
//Initiating Audio\\
General Ka'tansv, my unit has successfully infiltrated the Air-Breather ship, "New Amuyeli".  We are posing as refugees untill a time when we can acquire our own transportation.  We have gained their full trust, none of them suspect us at all to be spies.  We have recieved your warning about the incoming missile strike and have made sure that we will all be on board the ship at impact.  This will be our final message untill we have gained access to the Air-Breather space-faring technology and have had sufficient time to understand how it works.  As soon as we understand the technology we will begin preparations to capture a transport vessel and set up base on a nearby planet.  If everything goes according to plan they will not realize we are gone untill it is far too late to stop us.  I will contact you again as soon as our mission is complete.  For the Sea Mother!
//Audio End\\
//End of Transmission\\






EDIT: Yep, the Kawona are coming back.
My attempts at a new race didn't work out and I have put too much work into the Kawona to abandon them now.
The mean green Kawona from the bottom of the sea have found their way to space.
This is in no way a good thing for the rest of the galaxy.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: operaghost21 on April 05, 2006, 01:47:39 pm
yippee! the kawona are back!  ;D

we now have another race of space-faring warriors!
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on April 05, 2006, 02:08:06 pm
Also a new avatar (gotta keep with the trend!)
(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3111/kawonaav0gw.jpg)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Hydromancerx on April 05, 2006, 04:33:24 pm
Also a new avatar (gotta keep with the trend!)
(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3111/kawonaav0gw.jpg)

I wonder where ya got that idea  ::)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on April 05, 2006, 05:05:45 pm
Yeah I liked that style avatar so I decided I'd join the cool crowd and make one too haha (I needed to change from my Fifth Element one anyway).

Anyway, on with the Kawona stuffs.
Just after "New Amuyeli" launched, beginning The Great Exodus, the 10 member Sea-Breather military unit posing as refugees on board the ship began their plan.  As part 1 of the plan, they spent several years studying up on Air-Breather space technology.  Once they decided they had learned enough they began the second, and most dangerous, part of their plan.  If they were caught all of their work would be meaningless.  During the daily maintenance check they snuck out of their living area and made their way to the hangar.  Upon arriving they kidnapped one of the mechanics and stole the nearest transport ship.  The mechanic had clearance to get the hangar doors open and they made their escape.  The Sea-Breathers are not completely without mercy and so they shoved the mechanic into an escape pod and sent him back to the "New Amuyeli".  Once the mechanic's pod was recovered he told the rest of the Air-Breathers what had happened, but the Sea-Breathers were long gone by that time.  The Sea-Breathers flew directly to the nearest habitable planet and set up a base.  The planet contained no sentient life so they were able to keep all of their efforts on study, and not fighting.  After a few years of work they had their own operational space-craft.  Unfortunately for the military unit, when they returned to their homeworld, the country that had sent them on their mission had been overthrown.  They spent almost a year rounding up the small groups left resisting their new leaders and shuttled them to the new off-world base.  This new space-faring group of Sea-Breather Kawona did not ever return to Amuyeli.  Because the Air-Breathers had come to space and already become known as simply "Kawona" to all other intelligent species, and the Sea-Breathers were no longer living underwater, they needed a new name.  It was decided that they would call themselves the Kawenu.

And now a picture of the Stolen Kawona Transport next to the modified Kawenu Fighter that was made from it's original design
(http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/4637/kawonaships3cv.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: operaghost21 on April 05, 2006, 08:11:32 pm
they even changed their names? very cool
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on April 06, 2006, 01:41:58 am
Did a quick little Kawenu Fighter in 3D (no actual textures on it for now).
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4854/kawenuship3d7wz.png)
I also made a short flyby animation before realising I do not know how to save animation renders.
One frame from the animation of what it would look like if I could figure it out.
(http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/2055/kawenushipspreview3rw.png)
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Hydromancerx on April 06, 2006, 01:44:55 am
Whoah! Very cool!! I would love to see the animation once you figure it out.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: huggkruka on April 06, 2006, 03:13:07 am
Very nice. There aren't too many people who uses 3D for their pics, which is ironic since everything we create in Spore will be in 3D. :P
Nice pictures, I hope you figure the animation out.
Title: Re: Kawona - My new creature
Post by: Kyyp on April 06, 2006, 10:38:42 am
It turns out, since I am using the free Mod-Tool version of XSI, I cannot render anything.
I will have to stick with low-res screenshots I guess.
Unless someone wants to buy me the full version heh.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on April 11, 2006, 12:57:03 am
Any/All graphical updates to my Kawona/Kawenu are going to be very few and far between now as the only graphics programs I have left are my 3d program (which takes forever to make anything good, not to mention I have not even attempted making a Kawona yet) and MSPaint.
My Illustrator demo finally expired so I am out any drawing programs until I can get a job (got an interview tomorrow morning actually) or I format my computer.

So for now, just text updates.

As the Kawenu continued to build their new space-faring community they also had to build and design their own ships (I have decided that flyby of the 10 or so ships is now inaccurate, as they will only have the one modified ship they stole that will actually look like that).  The Kawenu designed ships were much bigger and bulky than their Kawona counterparts.  The Kawenu on board the New Amuyeli only had a few years to learn as much as they could about technology that most Kawona spent their entire lives learning.  Many years went by with the Kawenu continuing to expand throughout their small section of the galaxy and as might be expected, conflict eventually broke out.

(This next bit is blatantly stolen if you know the show/movie I took it from but TOO BAD! I like it and I'm takin' it!)
The original Kawenu base became the largest city and a prosperous trading station very quickly.  This city essentially became the "center" of the new Kawenu empire for all things including Commerce, Science, the Arts, and Military.  The farther you got from the capitol city the less and less of these things you would see.  The outer planets had very little actual government and were usually run by whoever had the most money.  As the population grew some Kawenu decided that there needed to be one unifying government to rule all Kawenu throughout the galaxy.  Naturally, not everyone agreed with this idea, especially those living on the outer planets.  War inevitably broke out across all of the Kawenu-controlled worlds with the newly formed Federation trying to take controll of the entire known galaxy and the citizens of the outer worlds fighting for their freedom to live as they please.  Although the outer world's citizens were fighting for what they believed in The Federation had a vast advantage in military training, technology, and man-power.  The Federation eventually "won" the war but still has only a very small presence in the outer worlds.  These worlds are now either populated by poor farmers or criminals using them as their "hideouts" of sorts.

Even after all this time the Kawenu had still not been able to refine their space-faring technology to the level of the original Kawona ship they stole so many generations ago.  While not as huge as their first attempts, the smaller Kawenu passenger transport ships are still roughly the size of a modern day jumbo jet.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: huggkruka on April 11, 2006, 03:40:59 am
Foundation? Star Wars? I don't know, I kinda like the idea of Rome in space.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on April 11, 2006, 04:29:21 pm
It could use a lot of work and a texture job but this is what I've gotten so far.
(http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/79/kawenurender5hf.png)

Oh and that bit in my last post was based on Firefly/Serenity.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Creature963 on April 11, 2006, 04:36:34 pm
Well, at least you chose a damn good story to copy.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Hydromancerx on April 11, 2006, 06:45:40 pm
That turned out great :D
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: huggkruka on April 12, 2006, 04:21:32 am
Very nice 3D model!  ;)
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on April 14, 2006, 12:08:36 am
Did a real quick render of a Kawenu walking (you can still see the animation bones sticking out all over the place).

(http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/3500/kawenu9rg.gif)
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: operaghost21 on April 14, 2006, 12:39:02 am
super cool
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Hydromancerx on April 14, 2006, 01:01:14 am
That turned out great!!  ;D
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: huggkruka on April 14, 2006, 01:54:39 am
Now that is cool! If you continue this way we might even see some textured goodyness in the future, no?
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: LadyM on April 14, 2006, 08:50:34 am
Wow, that is a great animation  :o very cool.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on April 14, 2006, 11:44:14 am
Now that is cool! If you continue this way we might even see some textured goodyness in the future, no?

That is unfortunately probably a no.
I do not have anything other than MSPaint to do textures in, and that just won't cut it.
My Photoshop trial ran out a long time ago.
The only other option is GIMP and I absolutely can't stand that program.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on April 14, 2006, 02:44:36 pm
Uh oh, double post!
Oh well.

After nearly one hundred years of rule The Federation had a second civil war which eventually caused its complete collapse.  This war was by far the bloodiest war the Kawenu had ever fought.  The cause of the war was The Federation once again trying to force it's beliefs on everyone else, this time it just happened to be religion.  Obviously this did not go over well with everyone, and fighting broke out, as it often does with Kawenu.  Once it ended the Kawenu species was all but extinct.

The war greatly changed the Kawenu.  After seeing so much violence they no longer angered so easily or fought over things that did not actually matter.   While they still enjoyed the thrill of the fight they found much better ways to do it.  The few remaining Kawenu live in small outposts around the galaxy working mostly as mercenaries and bounty hunters. 

The one main difference in Kawenu law is that all of their laws only apply to other Kawenu or their friends/allies/travelling companions.  If a Kawenu steals from another Kawenu, he is sent to jail.  If that Kawenu instead steals from another species, no Kawenu court will punish him.  The only law Kawenu hold true for all races is pointless murder.  The only time killing is allowed is if it is for a bounty, a contract, or self defense. 

The main Kawenu city, Danuwa, is the only Kawenu settlement marked on Official Galactic Maps.  From afar, the city looks just like any Kawenu city before the war.  Upon entering the city however you would notice a vast difference.  The city is much cleaner and orderly than Kawenu cities were previously.  Many buildings have signs clearly marking where to go to get bounties, smuggling shipments, and other usually illegal things.

There are all sorts of training academies spred through-out the city for any kind of skill you can imagine, from fighting styles and weapon use to farming and tailoring.  These academies are where Kawenu go to learn their professions.  Each academy will teach the students about one specific profession and all they need to know to do the job.  There are no government run schools so all Kawenu are very specialized by the academies.  Because of the specialization that comes from the academies the elderly are very respected as they have had much longer to learn many different things.  Knowledge is the most important factor in Kawenu society and social status.

Arenas are built all around the city, each one with different rules and prizes.  Uwehnai Arena is at the exact center of Danuwa and can be seen towering above the other buildings from most places in the city.  Only the toughest competitors are allowed to fight at Uwehnai Arena.  Some of the richest Kawenu in the galaxy are the top ranking arena fighters.  No arena fights are ever to the death.  If an accidental death does occur, and it is proven in court to be accidental, the winner is suspended from fighting for 6 months.  Deliberate killings in the arena are punishable by a life sentence in prison or death.

Kawenu are very proud of their race.  Since there are so few of them left they no longer have any wars, or accept contracts from anyone who wants them to fight in a war.  Since the Kawona left the known universe the Kawenu have seen it as their duty to keep their species alive and prosperous in the galaxy so that they are not forgotten.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on April 22, 2006, 08:33:09 pm
Hello again everyone.
This is a message to all the artists out there.
I want to re-design the Kawona's physical appearance but seem to be stuck with artists block (you know... writers block.. but for drawing.. or something).
I want the Kawona to be a more unique creature.
I am trying to keep its physical description the same but not have it look so much like a regular old earth-bird.
They can still be bird-like but as they are now theyre just blue birds with extra wings, some arms and a weird tailfin.


For reference:
4 wings
2 arms (3 clawed fingers each)
2 legs (2 clawed toes each)
1 Tail fin
1 Head fin
Flexible beak
Covered light in feather-like scales
Amphibious
Capable of flight and swimming underwater for extended periods of time
Roughly 4 feet tall

These are just general guidelines and can be modified somewhat.

Help me!
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: operaghost21 on April 22, 2006, 08:57:36 pm
good sir, i accept your challenge!
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Hydromancerx on April 22, 2006, 09:02:29 pm
Maybe you could have it where you don't restart but have them in the future genticlly modify themselves to this new form you want.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on April 22, 2006, 09:05:08 pm
I should also mention that if a member (or members!) of one of those alliances makes me a picture (or pictures!) the Kawona (or Kawenu) would be far more inclined to join up with them.

And yeah Hydro I was considering it to possibly be just the Kawona that left the galaxy be the ones that look different and leave the Kawenu how they are.
I had also considered bringing a small group of Kawona back into the region of space inhabited by all the other created races.
They would be like peaceful, non-interfering, observers/advice givers.
If they do not change in appearance however, they will stay out in their own Kawona-built galaxy.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: GameManic on April 22, 2006, 09:12:37 pm
I can't wait to see the new design.  ;D
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on April 23, 2006, 11:39:23 am
Operaghost might you happen to also have that name registered (without the 21) on a forum about the game Skies of Arcadia?
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: operaghost21 on April 23, 2006, 11:45:05 am
Operaghost might you happen to also have that name registered (without the 21) on a forum about the game Skies of Arcadia?

sorry, nope...the 21 goes where i go... :D
but yeah, not me
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on April 23, 2006, 12:12:18 pm
Yeah I didn't think so but I thought I might as well ask anyway heh.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: operaghost21 on May 16, 2006, 04:57:26 pm
it took me about 5 years finding a crest design i liked, but it's finally done; my version of the kawona, 2.0!

tada!

(http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/74ddd97a67.jpg)
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on May 20, 2006, 07:44:57 pm
That is totally awesome.
It is now officially what Kawona look like.
I will have to use a little imagination to make them look not so evil though heh.

Now to decide how the change works in with their history.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: operaghost21 on May 20, 2006, 08:26:43 pm
glad you like it ;D
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on May 20, 2006, 09:29:41 pm
Vectorized,
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/987/kawona2vector2ag.png)

And made into my new Avatar.
(http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/6373/kawonaav24qc.png)

Took FOREVER to do that in photoshop so, as you can see, I left off a few details since you wouldn't be able to see them once I shrunk it down to avatar size anyway.



Oh!
And the reason why they ended up like this!

The Kawenu (the Kawona that stayed behind in their original galaxy) spent most of their time trying to become better fighters.
After several hundred years it became common practice to blame the Kawona (the ones who left the galaxy) for everything bad that happened to the Kawenu.
Since the Kawona eventually began to fear for their safety should the Kawenu ever figure out how to find them, they struck a deal.
The Kawona would genetically modify the Kawenu to become much more fit for combat if the Kawenu promised to never come looking for them.
The Kawenu agreed to this deal and thus ended up looking like they do now.







So, just for reference:

Kawona:
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3983/kawonasmaller9wb.png)
Kawenu:
(http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/74ddd97a67.jpg)
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on May 21, 2006, 02:12:00 pm
Colored:
(http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/5558/kawenucolored5uv.png)

And a Kawenu Mercenary (wearing the standard Battle Suit and a Communications Headset).
(http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/5549/kawenumerc0nl.png)
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Hydromancerx on May 21, 2006, 02:34:34 pm
ooo i liked the colored version even better !! Great job!!
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on May 28, 2006, 12:23:54 am
Hey look!
It's Amuyeli! (Pre-Kawenu-nuke-ification).
Post-Kawenu-nuke-ification would just have grey islands and heavy cloud cover instead.
Also, it apparently has a moon now, which shall henceforth be known as Nvya (I just got caught up in making the picture and did not realize I had never mentioned their planet having a moon, so now it does).
(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5899/starfield37tj.png)
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on June 06, 2006, 07:25:43 pm
Since it seems to be the newest trend, the Kawenu are gonna have to have come to Earth at one point in our history.
Many Kawenu used to be (before the Last Kawenu War) quite power mad.
One Kawenu in particular was even more power mad than any before, or after him.
The name of this Kawenu?
Huitzilopochtli.
Having been born with a rare genetic abnormality which made his skin color blue, like a Kawona, instead of the normal Kawenu green, he was ridiculed most of his life.
His dream was to prove he was as good as... no, better than any normal Kawenu.
One day he had had enough, and stole a standard fighter (with most of the crew still on-board) and set off in a random direction in space.
Because of Huitzilopochtli's extensive technical and combat knowledge, he was able to keep the crew at bay for an incredibly long time.
By the time the crew were able to regain control of the ship they were already far beyond any existing Kawenu starcharts.
During the chaos, many of the ships controll systems were heavily damaged, most unrepairable.
The crew found themselves hurtling out of control toward a small blue planet in the middle of nowhere.
After another fight with the remaining crew, witnessed by a large tribe of the planets native intelligent species, Huitzilopochtli saw the perfect opportunity to get the one thing he always wanted most, absolute power.
He became the ruler and most powerful god of this wandering tribe, and led them to where they would eventually build their vast empire.
The people who built this empire are known today as the Aztecs.

Aztec rendition of Huitzilopochtli:
(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/5629/huitzilopochtli4hv.jpg)

Bronze Age Kawona (from page 1 of this topic):
(http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/8895/kawonabronze8sz.png)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli



The odd part about all this?
I totally didn't base the Kawona/Kawenu off this god when I started them, just the early Americas in general.
The similarity with this particular god was entirely coincidence.
I drew that Bronze Age Kawona a long time ago.  I found out about that god and what he looks like less than 2 hours ago.

Maybe the Kawenu actually exist and really DID come to earth! *X-Files Theme Song*
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Cheesecow on June 06, 2006, 08:04:30 pm
DUDE!!! :o howd u make the awesome pic? flash or something? ???
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on June 06, 2006, 08:08:59 pm
I made it (and all of the early pictures on the first few pages of the topic) using Illustrator.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: stuck on June 06, 2006, 08:12:32 pm
Not sure about him, but either photoshop or GIMP or something similar. The Gimp is free here: http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/

But anyways, cool planet, are you going to elaborate on the moon? It doesn't look (completely) dead.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on June 18, 2006, 08:25:03 pm
Hooray!
It is "Kawenu Pride Day!" back on the Kawenu homeworld!
All Kawenu in the universe have gone back home to celebrate how awesome they are!



Uh oh!
Whats that in the sky?!
Everyone was partying and not paying attention to their jobs, even the guys who are supposed to be looking out for anything coming from space!

(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2386/kawenuded9tp.png)


Yeah, I'm done doin' creatures for a while, and if I do decide to do 'em again, it'll be a new species.
(Also, no, I did not make the picture, just added the text and arrow)
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: a14gt on June 18, 2006, 08:28:52 pm
OMG :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o!!!!!!!!!
wait this mean i win the ion games match since kawenus are dead wooo hoooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: operaghost21 on June 18, 2006, 08:32:26 pm
 :( :o ??? :-\ :'(
noooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
why, zesh, why?!?!?!?
oh, the torpality!!!!!
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kratok on June 18, 2006, 08:42:39 pm
Yeah!!! WHY! WHY! WHY WASINT THERE A NOWAS ARK WHY!

(also, shouldint be "oh the torpality since there not human?)
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Aegis on June 18, 2006, 08:50:32 pm
Gah, and I really liked this race, too. Thought it could become the third major fanmade race (Nauceans and Kazea being the first two, of course).
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: operaghost21 on June 18, 2006, 08:54:33 pm
Yeah!!! WHY! WHY! WHY WASINT THERE A NOWAS ARK WHY!

(also, shouldint be "oh the torpality since there not human?)

i was gonna put that, but i didn't think anyone would catch the joke  :D

and I'm not letting them die!!!!!!!!

meanwhile...on some prison...
A group of kawenu were really sad. they were in prison, so they couldn't make it home for kawenu pride day. when the prison heard of what happened, it freed the kawenu, who spent the next 300 years repopulating the galaxy of kawenus.

 ;D  ALL BETTER!!!
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on June 18, 2006, 08:56:39 pm
Remember, each and every Kawona is still alive (Kawona are different from Kawenu, but still very similar).
They are off building their paradise galaxy.
Of course, they have absolutely no reason to return to this galaxy, but they could if they wanted to (they don't want to though).
Way more of my work was put into the Kawona anyway, so the Kawenu are really no big loss (4 pages of Kawona, 2 of Kawenu).
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: operaghost21 on June 18, 2006, 08:59:03 pm
Remember, each and every Kawona is still alive (Kawona are different from Kawenu, but still very similar).
They are off building their paradise galaxy.
Of course, they have absolutely no reason to return to this galaxy, but they could if they wanted to (they don't want to though).

yeah, but no one cares about the kawona...;)
kawenu's are obviously much cooler in every way   :D
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on June 18, 2006, 09:02:22 pm
Cool enough to all be dead.
ALL of them.

Also remember, the Kawona were the ones who genetically modified the Kawenu to their most recent look.
The Kawona still have that information stored in their databases somewhere.
But like I said before, they have no reason to come back to this galaxy.
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: operaghost21 on June 18, 2006, 09:08:08 pm
Cool enough to all be dead.
ALL of them.

*runs off, crying hysterically*
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Aegis on June 18, 2006, 09:22:06 pm
Eh, the Kawona were the ones I was giving the high praise to, so you're right, the Kawenu are no big loss.

Off Topic: Nice multipass. Are you going to go see the opera?  ;)
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: operaghost21 on June 18, 2006, 09:27:30 pm
Eh, the Kawona were the ones I was giving the high praise to, so you're right, the Kawenu are no big loss.

Off Topic: Nice multipass. Are you going to go see the opera?  ;)

he's going to see the opera ghost  :D
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: Kyyp on June 18, 2008, 01:06:48 pm
(http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7277/crekawona06830370fulzi3.png)
(http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/4692/crekawenu0683036efulxs6.png)
Title: Re: Kawona/Kawenu - My new creature(s)
Post by: operaghost21 on June 19, 2008, 06:34:02 am
awesome! good to see 'em  :)